RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Those people who believe that Razmir is a god certainly understand him to be Lawful Evil.
There are player characters who, for ethical reasons, choose not to receive infernal healing. Subjecting a PC to the spell, while withholding an explanation about what it is, would run the border of PvP.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I did read your line. My position stands. You can put all the little smiley-icons on it that you like. Your PC is lying to an ally and violating the "Cooperate" part of the Pathfinder Motto.
As you say, Bluff doesn't work under those circumstances. A recipient with Spellcraft can tell quite clearly what your PC is doing.
I've seen players nearly come to blows towards one another about infernal healing; it's one of the most fractious elements of the game. At my table, I don't allow PCs to cast it on one another, unless the recipient's player agrees.
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Chris, did you not read my line about that? I bluff the heck out of it as their sins convicting them....that is why they feel evil... :)
Just because you lie to your party, it doesn't make it any better. I'm sure there are plenty of characters, a few of mine included, who would rather die than be anointed in devil's blood.
"You anoint a wounded creature with devil’s blood or unholy water, giving it fast healing 1."
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Shfish, if you and your friends at a local store have this worked out at your games, and you're all good with it, more power to you.
But really, if you travel to a large convention and pull this stunt, you are asking for trouble. There are characters who will get very angry at your characters. There are players who will get very angry at you. Which is why I enforce the rules for "Bluffing other PCs" and why I won't allow the infernal healing if the recipient player objects.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Except that in a world where hell really exists, and there is a spell that allows hell to reach out and touch your soul to heal your body, refusing to let it do that isn't lawful stupid, it's smart good.
And it isn't reality bending over backward to keep my lawful stupid type happy. It is reality bending over backward to keep my chaotic good type from going PVP on your evil character after I find out you are bathing me in the power of hell and lying to me about it.
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I run a Razmiran Priest Sorcerer, but, OOC, I make sure that my tablemates know that the wand is Infernal Healing, not CLW, and have their buy-in before I use it on them. He also has a wand of CLW that he will attempt to use, if requested. He has better than a 50% chance of activating it, but, at some point, he probably won't be able to use it for the rest of the day...
Note that mine is a member of the Sczarni faction...
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There are characters who will get very angry at your characters. There are players who will get very angry at you. Which is why I enforce the rules for "Bluffing other PCs" and why I won't allow the infernal healing if the recipient player objects.
I see how the character would be angry if they had spellcraft or failed to see through the bluff, but if the player had such a failure to separate IC and OOC then I'm sorry but it is the player of the Goody-Two-Shoes that is the problem, not the guy with the fun RP about what his healing magic is. I really hope there are not actually any players like this, especially not if they are players of Paladins and such.
From a purely in-game logic standpoint I would think that "the tingly evil feeling is just your own sin" is exactly the kind of lie that a self-loathing lawful stupid, somewhat INT dumped paladin would believe. As long as all the players are in on it I feel that it would be appropriate and add to the intra-party RP at just about any table.
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The target detects as an evil creature for the duration of the spell and can sense the evil of the magic, though this has no long-term effect.
Emphasis Mine.
Spellcraft is not required to know that receiving Infernal Healing is evil.
A paladin who compromises their morals for momentary solace by suckling from a demon's teat has truly compromised themselves.
A paladin who unknowingly accepts such a gift from an ally should say a prayer to ward off further evil and accept no more gifts from that friend for even if they are a steadfast ally and strong supporter of all that is righteous, their magic involves the dark arts and is not for you.
For your path is a hard one, requiring great sacrifice and ultimate devotion to a moral code, so that with your last breath you can take comfort in a life of absolute righteousness.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I see how the character would be angry if they had spellcraft or failed to see through the bluff, but if the player had such a failure to separate IC and OOC then I'm sorry but it is the player of the Goody-Two-Shoes that is the problem, not the guy with the fun RP about what his healing magic is. I really hope there are not actually any players like this ...
Oh, trust me; there really are players who don't like you keeping them in the dark about how your character is messing with theirs and lying about it. And I really don't think they're the problem.
As long as all the players are in on it I feel that it would be appropriate and add to the intra-party RP at just about any table.
As I say, if everybody's on board, then that's great. But really, if the recipient's player isn't on board, doesn't casting Evil spells on the character strike you as a dumb thing to do?
--
Back to the OP: has the "vow of non-violence" worked out? What are your plans, if you're the only party member left standing?
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Oh, trust me; there really are players who don't like you keeping them in the dark about how your character is messing with theirs and lying about it. And I really don't think they're the problem.
I see how the character would be angry if they had spellcraft or failed to see through the bluff, but if the player had such a failure to separate IC and OOC then I'm sorry but it is the player of the Goody-Two-Shoes that is the problem, not the guy with the fun RP about what his healing magic is. I really hope there are not actually any players like this ...
The lying is IC. To my mind for a player to get upset about that is a massive failure to separate reality from fantasy. I guess I am just lucky to not have encountered any of these horror story disruptive players yet.
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Razmir himself is one of the Decemvirate after all. Surely all pathfinders are working for the great and powerful Razmir.
Preach it sister! Why would anyone from Razmirian NOT join the Pathfinder Society knowing the TRUE living god is the one influencing us and giving us order. By virtue of association, working for the Pathfinder Society is YET another step closer to Razmir's graces.
As any good Paladin, If anyone wants to receive the holy healing of Razmir, I will gladly lay on hands on them and bring them back to health with us. So far in my adventures, noone has refused it.
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The lying is IC. To my mind for a player to get upset about that is a massive failure to separate reality from fantasy. I guess I am just lucky to not have encountered any of these horror story disruptive players yet.Oh, trust me; there really are players who don't like you keeping them in the dark about how your character is messing with theirs and lying about it. And I really don't think they're the problem.
I see how the character would be angry if they had spellcraft or failed to see through the bluff, but if the player had such a failure to separate IC and OOC then I'm sorry but it is the player of the Goody-Two-Shoes that is the problem, not the guy with the fun RP about what his healing magic is. I really hope there are not actually any players like this ...
I believe this comes down to how it IS handled OOC. I have seen players, not in PFS, hide their shenanigans both IC and OOC simply because it amuses them. If you go to a table with a paladin and successfully dupe his character into receiving a rather evil spell simply because it amuses you and continuing this OOC by not letting the player know your character is a lying prick, then that's going into the "don't be a jerk" category. Especially if another party member comes up afterwards and says "Hey man, you might want an atonement. That was evil." Now suddenly the player of the paladin has to foot the bill for an atonement or otherwise with no repercussions to the player who cast on him.
I have a CG cavalier who would be very angry at having that cast on him. If though the player states his OOC intentions and has my blessing, and successfully does Bluff my character well then all the power to you. It is very unlikely my character if he finds out will ever aid you again, but as long as everything is in the open OOC I am perfectly fine. Most of the players I come across are the same way. I do not think this player will receive any hate for simply asking the table "Would you mind if I do this? If no, thats cool."
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Bottom line:
Don't lie to other players.
If other players don't want you to do something to their characters, don't do it.
Talk out potential problems beforehand.
Have fun.¹
¹ and if your fun comes at the expense of other players, consider whether organized play is the best choice for you²
² not implying that this is the case for anyone here³
³ recursive footnote³
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I love how all of reality has to bend over backward to keep lawful stupid types happy.
My Paladin not allowing your character to cast Infernal Healing on yourself because I think your character has to live by my standards is bending over backwards to keep lawful stupid types happy.
My Paladin allowing your character to cast Infernal Healing on him because you think my character has to live by your standards is bending over backwards to keep chaotic jerk types happy.
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Again I guess I am just lucky to have never really had to be at a table with that kind of disruptive player; either the stuck up paladin or the trickster jerk.
The closest I have seen in PFS is a CN Magus that keeps threatening to heal my Paladin/Gunslinger with Infernal Healing next time I go unconscious. The person playing the CN Magus is my wife.
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I had a player have his wizard cast infernal healing on my paladin. I was shocked that he would attempt to do that, and that the supposedly intelligent wizard would do that in-game. All I did was ask for the dc of the will save to resist the spell.
I haven't played with that player since, I don't think.
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I had a player have his wizard cast infernal healing on my paladin. I was shocked that he would attempt to do that, and that the supposedly intelligent wizard would do that in-game. All I did was ask for the dc of the will save to resist the spell.
I haven't played with that player since, I don't think.
Not all paladins will outright refuse Infernal Healing. Iomedae and Serenrae probably have a... greater reason not to accept it, but beyond those two the rest would have to depend on the circumstance.
Mission to defend an invaluable painting for a Paladin of Shelyn and it's either take infernal healing or fall unconscious in battle? If that paladin took it at my table I wouldn't have a problem with it.
YMMV
Also, holy derail batman.
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I certainly wouldn't consider it a PvP action to use Infernal Healing to save a "conscientious objector" PC from death. Doing it to spite them would be, but if the Paladin is dying, my LN Magus is going to Infernally Heal the crap out of his fatal injuries, his 'sanctimonious prattling' (as she would put it) be damned straight to where her spell came from.
Discussing it OOC with the Paladin's player, though, would be well advised. I love the idea of a Paladin rolling a will save against the spell, fearing the taint of devilish power.
My Paladin would probably accept such healing if it meant him being able to protect an innocent or apprehend a great evil, but he would go atone for it afterwards.
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As for the original poster, I know of at least one "priest of Razmir" who has been around for a couple of years. The player (whose identity I will not reveal) is very much into the roleplaying side of things and his continual shouts of "For the Glory of Razmir!" have kept everyone greatly entertained. He play(ed) it at several local conventions and I never saw anyone get upset at his play style.
That said... he casts spells from his actual class, and never pretends they are anything else. Whenever anyone questions how a cleric has cast at least six spells that don't appear on the cleric spell list, his response is "The power of Razmir transcends a puny barrier of spell type! He grants ALL spells!
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My DC's are 20 for 1st level charm spells, 21 if its lanugage dependent and they might find me attractive. As I play this person to be very Adrogenous(sp) I leave it to the DM to decide when that applies :) [See Earl of Porros from Guin Saga anime].
Level 3 now (DM Credit)
I bluff at a 12 base +10 with mask of stony demeanor for lies.
Do note that a mask of stony demeanor makes it where your face looks like a statue and you speak on a monotone voice. This would effect how people would react to you. If you were an oread on the otherhand, it would so in line, since it is a magic item based on their race.
While the "Razmiran Priest" sorcerer archetype was made specifically for the priests of Razmir, there is nothing in it that specifically requires you to be a priest of that religion. You could just as easily use the archetype to make up your own bogus religion instead of using someone else's.
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While the "Razmiran Priest" sorcerer archetype was made specifically for the priests of Razmir, there is nothing in it that specifically requires you to be a priest of that religion. You could just as easily use the archetype to make up your own bogus religion instead of using someone else's.
I don't think you are allowed to reflavor archetypes, there is a rather strict stance on reskinning in PFS.
That said, the archetype would make an excellent cleric of Aroden.
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While the "Razmiran Priest" sorcerer archetype was made specifically for the priests of Razmir, there is nothing in it that specifically requires you to be a priest of that religion. You could just as easily use the archetype to make up your own bogus religion instead of using someone else's.I don't think you are allowed to reflavor archetypes, there is a rather strict stance on reskinning in PFS.
That said, the archetype would make an excellent cleric of Aroden.
Reflavoring is not the same as reskinning. If you say "This is a greatsword" but you're wielding a Large Scimitar, that's not allowed. But if you want to be a Razmiran Priest, you don't have to worship him unless the book says you do (I don't own it so I don't know if it does restrict you there).
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Reflavoring is not the same as reskinning. If you say "This is a greatsword" but you're wielding a Large Scimitar, that's not allowed. But if you want to be a Razmiran Priest, you don't have to worship him unless the book says you do (I don't own it so I don't know if it does restrict you there).While the "Razmiran Priest" sorcerer archetype was made specifically for the priests of Razmir, there is nothing in it that specifically requires you to be a priest of that religion. You could just as easily use the archetype to make up your own bogus religion instead of using someone else's.I don't think you are allowed to reflavor archetypes, there is a rather strict stance on reskinning in PFS.
That said, the archetype would make an excellent cleric of Aroden.
You are right, and the book doesn't restrict you. Dylos though is right in the sense that a few (rare in my experience but I suspect it varies by community) DMs might give you a hard time.
There are also a couple feats in the same book which would allow you to do many of the things a Razmirian cleric can do. Personally, I think the Bard is a better class to use for a 'false' cleric.
BTW, what is Razimer's favored weapon?
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The flavor of Razmirans can be fun at the table. I've always introduced my Razmiran Sorcerer as a "Priest of Razmir" which has led to some interesting confusion when the party asks me to heal. Though it is good practice to let the GM in on the joke before the session begins.
I invested heavily in UMD so I could disguise myself by using CLW wands, in addition to Infernal Healing. It's a good idea to keep both wands/spells handy just incase anyone objects to one or the other. (That and remember Infernal Healing is a 1 round cast while CLW is 1 standard). Chris Mortika has got the right idea on this one.
BTW, what is Razimer's favored weapon?Fear.
Surprise!
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Razmir on the other hand is a fakir through and through and the archetype is built on that theme.
There is still room to play with this theme though. My "paladin" of Razmir truly believes Razmir is a real deity, and a good all-around guy! I mean, everyone in Razmirian is so eager to give the priests of Razmir money all the time (he can't tell it's extortion/taxes)! He has seen the priests of Razmir heal the sick and mend the wounded (possible also inflicted by the same people)!
So he went off to the Pathfinder society to preach the good will of Razmir and convince everyone that he is a super good guy, and just misunderstood outside Razmirian. He doesn't understand why people keep saying he is a false god when he has seen all the miracles!
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I know of at least one "priest of Razmir" who has been around for a couple of years. The player (whose identity I will not reveal) is very much into the roleplaying side of things and his continual shouts of "For the Glory of Razmir!" have kept everyone greatly entertained. He play(ed) it at several local conventions and I never saw anyone get upset at his play style.
That said... he casts spells from his actual class, and never pretends they are anything else. Whenever anyone questions how a cleric has cast at least six spells that don't appear on the cleric spell list, his response is "The power of Razmir transcends a puny barrier of spell type! He grants ALL spells!"
Now that he has revealed himself I will confirm that I was talking about John Compton. Seriously, everyone should hear his snarling shouts about the power of Razmir. That voice more than anything convinces PCs and NPCs alike to believe. (I will also clarify that when I said "doesn't pretend his spells are anything else" I meant he doesn't try to make them act differently than what they do. I wish I could remember what he called his symbol of mirroring. "Symbol of Razmir" sounds too simplistic.)
But back to how to play such a character - it's really important to be a good gaming citizen. Make sure the GM is OK with what you intend to do. Take a step back after a little bit and see if you are dominating the table's time (and the other players would rather you didn't). If you happen to be with a player who refuses to accept your role-played castings and class abilities and demands that you "play correctly," dial it back (and more importantly encourage that player to roleplay her character more). Some people just won't be able to accept a priest of Razmir because they know the lore, know the books, and know that Razmir isn't a real deity. Although you are mechanically sound they will demand that you stop making your character something it isn't. It may not be you that's the direct cause of problems but if you can do something (roleplay less) to keep the table civil you probably should. Talk with her afterwards and point her at that blog post linked above where John discusses reflavoring that doesn't affect mechanics (it's OK).
I was in a scenario recently where it was clear the GM wasn't at all into my "watzit?" character. "He sees through your bluff." "Are you sure? You didn't ask me for my modifier." "Yes, you can't fool him." (and the next npc, and the next, etc.) Add in some pretty terrible acoustics in the room and subtlety was not very possible at that table. So I dropped the roleplaying to a minimum. Still interacted with PCs as I normally would but didn't push my "alternate features."