Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
Normal: A creature you feint loses its Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
The bold parts explain what is being modified. The rest of the greater feint feat lists the duration for which it is being altered. This does not say the target is denied dex to everyone as the rules of feinting are what govern this. It alters the duration that feint affects your attacks.
Just to play devil's advocate, I'd expect the rules to state the following if the opponent's dex penalty only applies to the rogue who feinted.
"Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus to your attacks until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack."
I can see everyone's point, but it is just a really pointless feat if it doesn't help the rogue's allies.
Improved Feint only removes the Dexterity Bonus for the one fraction of a second of the thief's action/attack. What this means is that they DO lose that Dexterity bonus for everyone, but only the rogue is able to take advantage of that moment. Greater Feint removes it until the rogue's next action on the next round. Thus other people are able to take advantage of it.
Wow, 33 pages...this is way too much to read through...
So did anyone manage to come up with a rogue only build that is decent in combat?
I think so... Depends on what you mean by decent.
** spoiler omitted ** but a strength build would be better and has been posted by others. There are even better dex builds.
I think this is a decent build. You're feints should be effective against any creature that can be feinted against, including those with an intelligence blow 3, and non-humanoids.
I'm curious though what you would be doing with Minor and Major Magic. I know that gives you Arcane Strike, but I'm not really sure if any other use is worth it. What am I missing?
I see you've not played Skyrim. "Arrow to the Knee" has become the catchphrase for adventurer retirement. As in "I used to be an adventurer like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee!"I'm 4 pages late, but thought i'd bring up: isnt "arrow to the knee" a turn of prase for getting married? I mean I wont judge Ima and the lady medusa's love across species, but...Saves aren't everything."The last words of world famous thief "Ima Gunnashankya" before petrified by a medusa. His memorial still stands here bearing the exact expression of shock on his face before being petrified."Much like "saves are everything," could be the last words spoken by Ima Gunnashankya before the medusa slays him with an arrow to the knee. Works both ways.
For every argument there will be a counter.
actually it's from that that i learned about it from--every guard everywhere didn't suddenly didnt get shot in leg syndrome, they settled down and got married (which would explain why they're a city guard--using their adventuring talents to keep their town/families safe).
So, quick thought input, wouldn't the rogue be the smart guy in the group? While a wizard has high int too, the rogue has many more skill points to actually use those knowledge skills...
So, if your group is good about not meta gaming, your rogue would be the go-to guy about information about various monsters, if you went with an int based build. So, team leader wewt wewt? Who would ever trust the fighter as the leader anyways?
Yeah the Rogue will never be the go to knowledge guy so long as the Bard has Bardic Knowledge. And isn't exactly the role the Rogue should have.
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So, quick thought input, wouldn't the rogue be the smart guy in the group? While a wizard has high int too, the rogue has many more skill points to actually use those knowledge skills...
So, if your group is good about not meta gaming, your rogue would be the go-to guy about information about various monsters, if you went with an int based build. So, team leader wewt wewt? Who would ever trust the fighter as the leader anyways?
knowledge domain clerics and inquisitors are actually the go to class for monster lore.
I'm curious though what you would be doing with Minor and Major Magic. I know that gives you Arcane Strike, but I'm not really sure if any other use is worth it. What am I missing?
Major magic is the prereq for the advance talents familiar and dispelling strike.
Both really help the rogue at high levels. A small air elemental adds a lot of options to what the rogue can do. The UMD check is lower than I would like (only 70% success for wands at 13, a circlet of persuasion would help this). With a fly speed of 100 perfect, that air elemental will help you flank, or it can use flyby attack to trigger Opportunist. It has a pretty high dex, so it makes a decent second skill monkey, since it posses all of the rogues ranks.
EDIT: I also find prestidigitation 3 times per day and silent image twice per day can be very useful.
The medusa slew him by getting him a wife?Saves aren't everything."The last words of world famous thief "Ima Gunnashankya" before petrified by a medusa. His memorial still stands here bearing the exact expression of shock on his face before being petrified."Much like "saves are everything," could be the last words spoken by Ima Gunnashankya before the medusa slays him with an arrow to the knee. Works both ways.
For every argument there will be a counter.
Man I bet that stops a lot of adventurers.
Man I bet that stops a lot of adventurers.The medusa slew him by getting him a wife?Saves aren't everything."The last words of world famous thief "Ima Gunnashankya" before petrified by a medusa. His memorial still stands here bearing the exact expression of shock on his face before being petrified."Much like "saves are everything," could be the last words spoken by Ima Gunnashankya before the medusa slays him with an arrow to the knee. Works both ways.
For every argument there will be a counter.
Iomedae brooks no excuses.
Well, should we just label the rogue as a "Jack of all trades, master of none"?
No no no. Bards get jack of all trades. Rogues get skill mastery.
Well, should we just label the rogue as a "Jack of all trades, master of none"?
bard claimed that title (and more effectively, at that) a good while ago.
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Actually, it says in addition to your next attack. you know, Like In case you for some reason couldn't take a standard action to attack that turn.
Which means, You could feint against two enemies. Then next turn attack both of them.
You make the enemy flat footed. Period. Until the beginning of your next turn. This is in addition to being able to make your next attack against them with them being flat footed.
As its rather hard to understand.. Lets break this down.
When you feint without any feats, it is a standard action. The next melee attack against the target, taken on this turn or the next, does not allow him to use his Dex bonus to AC.
Improve Feint makes it so now
As a Move action you can feint. The next melee attack you use on the target This turn or next, denies the Dex bonus as well.
Now Greater Feint -
As a move action, you can make the enemy flat footed with a feint action, while still being able to deny Dex mod on your next melee attack against them this turn or next turn.
Needs more bold statements I don't know what's important to read. :P
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The next attack cannot be made during the next turn. It says it in feint. You guys keep adding inferences. You assume too much. Just like how they've now become flat footed.Actually, it says in addition to your next attack. you know, Like In case you for some reason couldn't take a standard action to attack that turn.
Which means, You could feint against two enemies. Then next turn attack both of them.You make the enemy flat footed. Period. Until the beginning of your next turn. This is in addition to being able to make your next attack against them with them being flat footed.
As its rather hard to understand.. Lets break this down.
When you feint without any feats, it is a standard action. The next melee attack against the target, taken on this turn or the next, does not allow him to use his Dex bonus to AC.
Improve Feint makes it so now
As a Move action you can feint. The next melee attack you use on the target This turn or next, denies the Dex bonus as well.
Now Greater Feint -
As a move action, you can make the enemy flat footed with a feint action, while still being able to deny Dex mod on your next melee attack against them this turn or next turn.
Yes you can.
FeintFeinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff skill check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
When feinting against a nonhumanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a creature lacking an Intelligence score, it's impossible. Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Feinting as a Move Action: With the Improved Feint feat, you can attempt a feint as a move action.
ITS A BLOODY STANDARD ACTION NORMALLY TO FEINT. WHEN ELSE WOULD YOU TAKE THE NEXT MELEE ATTACK AGAINST THE TARGET? TUESDAY?
Now who is /actually/ making the assumptions here? It says it, right there in Feint. You can take the attack you get on the next turn you have.
The next melee attack can occur while the foe has lost their dex bonus from greater feint.
The target then has lost their dex bonus twice. These effects do not stack though.
Enemies that are denied their Dexterity Bonus (or penalty) are subject to Sneak Attack damage. This is, in effect, the same as being Flatfooted against the Rogue.
That said, Greater Feint only lasts 'til the start of your next turn. Thus you cannot use it to Feint against two people on one turn and then get a full round of Sneak Attacks the second.
For that matter, if you used Feint (not Improved, just normal) on an opponent, then only your next attack gets Sneak Attack bonuses. This is true whether you use Feint, Improved Feint, or Two-Handed Feint.
Greater Feint would allow a character who was allowed to act twice in a turn (or more) to get extra attacks using Sneak Attack bonuses. Thus if allowed to attack again thanks to the Marshal's Mythic Decisive Strike ability, that attack would be a Sneak Attack bonus. Likewise, if the Rogue had Mythic Improved Initiative and used a Mythic attack to gain a Standard Action, then another Sneak Attack would be allowed.
Feint may seem like a means of allowing Rogues to get sneak attacks without flanking. Unfortunately, it has been so strongly nerfed that ultimately it diminishes the Rogue's ability to be effective. The best Rogues are those with improved two-weapon fighting and double-slice who then flank a foe to gain multiple attacks... and used weapons that ignore armor to negate their lower to-hit.
(That said, Greater Feint works if the person Feinting is working with a Rogue who then is able to get a full attack with full sneak attack bonuses. Perhaps a Bard who is helping out the Rogue so neither is completely ineffectual in combat)
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See now you're getting somewhere. Nothing has changed the feint rules. When the target is successfully denied dex (not flat footed) using greater feint, it lasts until the start of your next turn in addition to your next attack. So if you move into position then use feint that target is denied dex vs your AoOs and any other attack you make until the start of your next turn.
Doesn't say it's considered flat footed. Doesn't say denied dex vs other players attacks. You interpret this with the feint rules that only apply to the fainter.
You're assuming again.
This what happens to Feint by replacing EXACTLY what they said was was normal. Notice it doesn't go "ONLY LOSES BONUS AGAINST YOUR ATTACKS"
Anything that is ever limited specifically calls out such a thing.
Greater Feint +Improved FeintFeinting is a move action. To feint, make a Bluff skill check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. If successful, he loses Dexterity bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
Bolded what was replaced by the feats.
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Notice it doesn't say loses dexterity vs all opponents attacks. It says in addition to your next attack. Nothing has changed YOU as the variable. You can't have it both ways to make the feat you want it to be.
Correction, Nothing has said that it ONLY loses its dexterity modifier to ONLY YOU.
IT IS DENIED.
There is Two things that happen.
1) It is Denied its bonus until the beginning of your next turn.
2) Your next attack, be it taken this turn or next, It is also denied.
The Second part doesn't include your allies. So if they don't attack on their next turn, and attack on their turn after yours, they don't get him flat-footed. That Part there is only applicable to you.
You're not reading Verbatim. You are assuming the you in the second portion of the feat applies to the front part of the feat.
IF I was was to say "I went to the store and got candy in addition to your liquorish."
You're Verbatim would assume that all the candy is yours that I had acquired.
This is the specific wording for Greater Feint:
Greater Feint (Combat)
You are skilled at making foes overreact to your attacks.
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.
Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
Normal: A creature you feint loses its Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
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Note the differences between Normal (losing Dex bonuses against your next attack) and Benefit (losing Dex bonus until the beginning of your next turn, IN ADDITION to losing his Dex bonus against your next attack.)
Greater Feint strips the dexterity bonus from a creature for all purposes until the next turn. Of course, there's an interesting point here: does this also include Reflex Saves, Dex-based skill checks, and the like? Because the Dexterity bonus covers a multitude of areas besides just armor class, and it does not specify it's the armor bonus from dexterity that is negated.
This also allows for an interesting use of Improved Feint: a Magus using it against a foe and then casting a spell requiring a Reflex Save.
I believe that even flat footed foes add their dex mod to their reflex save.
The three words you added in bold would invalidate the following sentence of "in addition". It would become redundant wording and would get removed. Instead they left it like that so you know it's in addition to YOUR next attacks. The argument is that it doesn't say anywhere that the opponent is losing his dex to anyone other than you. This is why there's an argument.
While I disagree with you on this part, I appreciate you're points below.
The Paizo staff have said repeatedly that not all feats are made equal. Not all feats are designed to be optimal. Many feats are designed for flavor. The feat still provides you with a flat footed target vs any future attacks until your next turn.This includes things like:
AoOs from moving
AoOs from using a ranged attack in melee
AoOs from casting
Step up and strike
snake fang
crane riposte
opportunist advanced talent
A full attack from having feint as a swift action
A pathfinder chronicler...
Thanks for pointing out how the Opportunist talent combines nicely with GF. While I'm aware not all feats are created equal, I just can't see how this is worth the feat investment to get here (under this interpretation of the feat).
Thank you for that, Atarlost. I couldn't agree more.
The only thing I'd like to add along this line (and then I'll most likely shut up and get back to the OP) is that Feats such as Catch Off-Guard and Shatter Defenses specifically call out "to your attacks" or "attacks you make". Greater Feint, however, offers no such specific language. What it does is give us 1 sentence divided, by 2 commas, into 3 sections.
The first section sets up the condition; "Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dex bonus". This is the action that must take place in order for the Feat to take effect.
The second section gives the Effect of the feat once the condition above has been met; "he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn". This section does not say "to your attacks" or "against attacks you make" or any such language. The Effect is universal. The target is now denied his dex bonus "until the beginning of your next turn." Again, if it was meant to be just against your attacks, the Feat would spell that out just as it does elsewhere in other Feats. After all, when you blind a target with Blinding Critical, the target isn't just blind against you. Its blind. Period.
The third section clarifies that this Effect does not override the regular effect of Feint, but simply adds to it; "in addition to losing his Dex bonus against your next attack." So feinting still works as it always had, but Greater offers an additional Effect.
So the interpretation of this is elementary in level. You feint as a move-action, the target is denied his Dex against anyone attacking him, and you get 1 attack as either a Standard action this Round or your first attack in the next Round that is made without his Dex added.
The fact that this has even become a discussion is sad.
(Begins to wonder if this "discussion" isn't itself a cleverly employed Feint from the OP).
Seems like it allows for a ranged attack to cause sneak that you wouldn't get with improved feint.
You can't say greater feint doesn't apply to allies AND that greater feint applies to range attacks.
Seems like it allows for a ranged attack to cause sneak that you wouldn't get with improved feint.You can't say greater feint doesn't apply to allies AND that greater feint applies to range attacks.Why can't I? Still only applies to the person that did the feint allowing them to get a ranged sneak attack that they can't get with improved feint. Gives the opening volley feat more utility.
Reread your arguments.
If feint only applies to your attacks, then it only applies to your melee attacks as per what you have been quoting.
This is your logic. Feel free to disagree with it.
I never said it only applies to your melee attacks. I've only ever said it applies to the person making the feint. You might want to read the argument yourself.
Then your position is not consistent with your own assumptions.
As fascinating as this is can we make a separate thread in the rules forum for this? Please?
As fascinating as this is can we make a separate thread in the rules forum for this? Please?
I agree. Another thread would be nice. There are several to choose from as this issue has already been asked, discussed, and answered many times.
So back to our poor Rogue . . ?