Assuming ideal conditions, the Drow build does less DPR than the Fighter build despite being well over WBL and having spent more than twice as much on items.
For reference, the Drow build does ~33 DPR against targets immune to Sneak Attack or targets it doesn't have concealment against for whatever reason.
In fairness a rogue will never perform well against targets immune to sneak attack. It's just part of the package. He same way a paladins dpr is low against non-evil enemies.
That said, the drow build has the added liability of needing constant darkness to work which may or may not be helpful to the rest of the party.
** spoiler omitted **
Ok, I have one build for just level 13 (Finals approaching, not much time). This build takes advantage of the concealment idea, where total concealment = loss of dexterity bonus (If you have arguments about this, take it to the recent threat on the rules forum, though it's generally accepted so far). This ESPECIALLY makes Drow Rogues shine (Although they are not legal for PFS, sad day)
A sample...
Ok, after looking at the build your average DPR against a CR 16 monster is 107 per round. Not bad at all, however your missing improved precise shot from your feat least. This means any obstacle or person in your way gives them a +4 AC bonus, which lowers it down to 85. Granted, you could replace blind fight with improved precise shot and you'd be fine, but I thought I'd throw that out there.
If we go with the min-max gear though, and compensate the fighter for the fact that I arbitrarily thought manyshot added a -2 penalty the damage for him goes up a notch (170 to be precise).
edit: upon reflection the fighter dpr is only 138 if he's not using his haste boots, which he won't always get off. Still they should be on only long enough for the party buffer to get haste up.
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Haste buff? Add that to the build as well then :).
The drow build, as others have mentioned, has weaknesses. Moonlight stalker isn't optimal, so replace blind fight, combat expertise, and improved feint. Grab improved precise shot, weapon focus. Not to mention there's room in the talents section. You could grab things like ki pool and vanish, or everything needed for dispelling strike. I'd personally like a one level dip into the drow fighter archetype too, swift action darkness? Yes please! Adjust the money spent as well, if you ant more defense, get it!
Both builds are not optimized, I'll make a repost when I'm not a cell
My group has found that Elf sniper archetype rogues are very fun. Although half elves get a bit more fun with a composite longbow and the whole either 1/4 range penalty or no range penalty (still not exactly clear on that one) deal. Although an elf scout would be awesome with the silent hunter racial.
Haste buff? Add that to the build as well then :).
The drow build, as others have mentioned, has weaknesses. Moonlight stalker isn't optimal, so replace blind fight, combat expertise, and improved feint. Grab improved precise shot, weapon focus. Not to mention there's room in the talents section. You could grab things like ki pool and vanish, or everything needed for dispelling strike. I'd personally like a one level dip into the drow fighter archetype too, swift action darkness? Yes please! Adjust the money spent as well, if you ant more defense, get it!
Both builds are not optimized, I'll make a repost when I'm not a cell
in fairness I actually bought the boots with my wbl, you couldn't afford them :p
HEY PAIZO!
Take note. You have a 1000 post thread on your forums discussing how one of your core classes needs fixing. Can you guy get a move on already?
HEY PAIZO!
Take note. You have a 1000 post thread on your forums discussing how one of your core classes needs fixing. Can you guy get a move on already?
At paizo headquarters.
"We need more rogue archetypes that give up trap-finding."
Paizo can't fix the rogue without a complete rework of the class. Which won't happen.
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HEY PAIZO!
Take note. You have a 1000 post thread on your forums discussing how one of your core classes needs fixing. Can you guy get a move on already?
you dont remember the monk class threads do you?
they had about 15 1k post thread and it still took almost 3 years for them to do anything, and even then it was very small changes that sate us enough to drop the issue for a while.
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HEY PAIZO!
Take note. You have a 1000 post thread on your forums discussing how one of your core classes needs fixing. Can you guy get a move on already?
I am not Paizo, (nor do I even play one on TV) but Ill point out that no one in that 1000 post thread agree on HOW to fix the rogue.
And, many of us disagree the rogue needs "fixing". Mind you, I have had a dev agree that the rogue needs 'some cool new talents' and "they are working on that".
They also have added quite a few cool archetypes, so when you want a charge in & hack rogue, you can now do it.
The rogue continues to be a very popular class, and one that contributes to a TEAM. I note nearly all the builds are concentrating on DPR, which is not what a rogue is all about. The Paizo devs have made that clear and have also made clear they aren’t really into DPR comparisons.
Sure, no doubt, if you want to play a skill-monkey with spells, a archeologist is as good as a rogue in that niche. And there’s a ranger who’s about as good. So? If you want to play a skilled character with some spells, go ahead and play a archeologist, who is stopping you? Just because there’s another build (esp one based upon a archetype) that can fill a niche, that doesn’t mean the core class that fills that niche “sucks” or “needs to be fixed”. It just means you have choices. Be happy. And what I find interesting is that folks always trot out another classes’ archetype that can almost beat a rogue at his niche- but casually dismiss the dozens of cool rogue archetypes.
So the fact that a dozen or so posters have spent hours & hours and a thousand posts theorycrafting doesn’t prove the rogue needs fixing. It only proves that there’s a bunch of you with a lot of time on your hands, (and some pretty nifty theorycrafting skills too, I might add).
;-)
Sniper Rogues pretty much have to be Drow for the mentioned feat combo, or if you don't mind being a bit weaker, can be done with half elvesNot trying to be mean by saying this, but bullcrud. Drow being the only good ranged rogues is bullcrud. I'll post more builds, though once again, finals week... (I should be writing a 21 page paper right now...).
Just think a little outside the box guys. Do the things that have never really been done.
Goblin rogues seems pretty awesome. PF actually made them better than they were.
I am not Paizo, (nor do I even play one on TV) but Ill point out that no one in that 1000 post thread agree on HOW to fix the rogueHEY PAIZO!
Take note. You have a 1000 post thread on your forums discussing how one of your core classes needs fixing. Can you guy get a move on already?
Going to cut you off right there.
Rogue homebrew or fixes has come up numerous times. It is always squashed before the conversation even gets traction because it explicitly isn't what this thread is about.
So the fact that "no one can agree" in this thread is a moot point because, again, it isn't what the aim is and it hasn't been what the discussion is about.
Perhaps you're reading a different thread than I am. Mind you, that may be what the OP wants to keep the thread locked onto, but even so no one agree on how to do even that.
But maybe I have missed a post or two, so what is the consensus? Has everyone agreed here on how to "make the rogue work"? What is that consensus?
And if the question is "how to make the rogue do more DPR" or whatever, then does that "fix' the rogue?
Bear in mind, I am replying to the post that sez "HEY PAIZO!
Take note. You have a 1000 post thread on your forums discussing how one of your core classes needs fixing. "
I don't see any agreement or consensus on "how the rogue class needs fixing".
Well, one of the most common points I've seen is that rogues, as a 3/4 BAB class, should get some method of increasing their attack rolls.
Another one is to stop making valuable archetypes that drop trapfinding.
You could provide them with better saves.
Provide automatic feats that eliminate the feat tax and free up some more customization options.
Allow sneak attack talents to stack.
Make more talents that provide unique effects for the rogue.
rogue really needs help to keep up.
they need full BAB
better saving throws
better talents
a built in way or few to augment attack bonus or reliably gain sneak attacks consistently
way to ignore sneak attack themed immunities
rogue really needs help to keep up.
they need full BAB
better saving throws
better talents
a built in way or few to augment attack bonus or reliably gain sneak attacks consistently
way to ignore sneak attack themed immunities
My buddy pointed out to me that flat stat increases are not the way to fix the rogue.
They would just become dex-fighters with more skill points.
I am not Paizo, (nor do I even play one on TV) but Ill point out that no one in that 1000 post thread agree on HOW to fix the rogueHEY PAIZO!
Take note. You have a 1000 post thread on your forums discussing how one of your core classes needs fixing. Can you guy get a move on already?
Going to cut you off right there.
Rogue homebrew or fixes has come up numerous times. It is always squashed before the conversation even gets traction because it explicitly isn't what this thread is about.
So the fact that "no one can agree" in this thread is a moot point because, again, it isn't what the aim is and it hasn't been what the discussion is about.
Perhaps you're reading a different thread than I am. Mind you, that may be what the OP wants to keep the thread locked onto, but even so no one agree on how to do even that.
But maybe I have missed a post or two, so what is the consensus? Has everyone agreed here on how to "make the rogue work"? What is that consensus?
And if the question is "how to make the rogue do more DPR" or whatever, then does that "fix' the rogue?
Bear in mind, I am replying to the post that sez "HEY PAIZO!
Take note. You have a 1000 post thread on your forums discussing how one of your core classes needs fixing. "I don't see any agreement or consensus on "how the rogue class needs fixing".
Their is no consensus. There will never be a consensus. It was stated from the start such a goal might be impossible. The problems may simply be insurmountable you may never find a build or combination of abilities that will push the rogue into a nice little corner no one else can snatch.
And some good work has been done in that direction.
Whether or not you think the rogue needs fixing is irrelevant to this discussion. If you think it works fine and can do it with more than anecdotes than by all means add to the discussion and prove the naysayers wrong. There are lots of posters here giving good advice and citing the actual mechanics behind what they're saying.
The point here isn't to complain or viciously defend the rogue but naked unabashed optimizing for a class that sorely needs the work.
So no this is not a 1000 post thread about how the rogue needs fixing. It's a 1000 post help center for a class that's tough to use.
Commoner is also a tough class to use.
Where is its optimization thread?
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Commoner is also a tough class to use.
Where is its optimization thread?
Way back in the 3.5 CharOP boards.
Seriously.
Commoner is also a tough class to use.
Where is its optimization thread?
Way back in the 3.5 CharOP boards.
Seriously.
Different game. Doesn't count.
Commoner is also a tough class to use.
Where is its optimization thread?
Commoner is already way OP.
No one expects an attack from a 20+ level commoner Muahahaha!!!! (Much like the Spanish Inquisition )
Funny, the PF rogue gained in EVERY aspect as compared to the 3.5 rogue, and people constantly moan about how terrible it is.
OK, maybe it didn't gain in EVERY aspect, but all of the changes to the rogue class from 3.5 to PF involved giving the rogue more power, not less.
PF rogue lost ONE thing -- Blink sneak attacks. That's it.
But still -- not enough.
Let me ask an off the cuff question. PF rogue in E8 -- still terrible?
Edit: Note, E8 allows for Greater Invisibility, which a PF rogue can use via (expensive) scrolls, wands, and potions to build the same powerhouse ranged sneak attack builds as before -- arguably better with the changes to archery.
Let me ask an off the cuff question. PF rogue in E8 -- still terrible?
Yes. I found my rogue to be unplayable by level 6. When I came to the understanding that to enemies greater than 30ft away from me, I was little more than a commoner who could roll high, that was about it for me and that class.
Being unable to have a cheap back-up ranged options is a critical weakness.
Here's an idea for the rogue, too:
Have sneak attack do more damage when it is used as an attack action (as opposed to part of a full attack action).
This makes rogues who need to move into position to get their sneak attack, or spend a move action activating some feat or ability in order to gain sneak attack, a bit more competitive with the DPR.
HOW MUCH more damage? I dunno. Double? A number of times equal to the crit damage modifier of the weapon used (plus the addition of an exotic dagger with a X3 crit damage mod)?
Let me ask an off the cuff question. PF rogue in E8 -- still terrible?Yes. I found my rogue to be unplayable by level 6. When I came to the understanding that to enemies greater than 30ft away from me, I was little more than a commoner who could roll high, that was about it for me and that class.
Being unable to have a cheap back-up ranged options is a critical weakness.
So your problem with the rogue is the 30ft ranged sneak attack limit? Wasn't that in place in 3.5 too?
Let me ask another question -- let's say PF Blink worked the way it did in 3.5. Would the PF rogue still suck?
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Funny, the PF rogue gained in EVERY aspect as compared to the 3.5 rogue, and people constantly moan about how terrible it is.
OK, maybe it didn't gain in EVERY aspect, but all of the changes to the rogue class from 3.5 to PF involved giving the rogue more power, not less.
Yes the class itself gained.
And yet lost.
You see many other classes gained as well. Suddenly you didn't have to have tapfinding to find all the traps meaning a rogue was no longer required in a trap heavy dungeon.
Further the only penalty you take for not taking an in-class skill was not gaining a +3 bonus for putting one point in. Meaning that the ranger who takes disable device may only be 3 points behind the rogue at any time in terms of raw skill.
Then came changes to the way stealth worked, and the influx of ways that it could be trivially defeated.
More than that many of the weaknesses of the original rogue remained, it's primary combat ability can be beaten with a smokestick. Or heavy fog, or light fog.
Thus, much of this thread hads been dedicated to beating these inherent weaknesses.
The trouble with that approach, however, is that even once you get past the weaknesses you still just find yourself on par with a class who doesn't even have to try.
yes, the rogue gained in most aspects compared to the previous addition, I'll grant that as fact. Now, lets move onto the point of this thread. Build a rogue that is competitive with the improved pf material. Rather then criticizing why it isn't enough, show us how you would build a competitive rogue.
<Shrug>
Go with all the archery feats and Leadership. Take a Warlock cohort with Beshadowed Blast. Hold your actions until after the warlock cohort blinds enemies. Pew pew sneak attacks with your bow.
That's ONE idea (yeah, I know Warlock isn't PF, but there is probably some other class that can do more or less the same thing). Since rogue benefits more from allies than most other classes, Leadership should be central to an optimized rogue build.
Here's an idea for the rogue, too:
Have sneak attack do more damage when it is used as an attack action (as opposed to part of a full attack action).
This makes rogues who need to move into position to get their sneak attack, or spend a move action activating some feat or ability in order to gain sneak attack, a bit more competitive with the DPR.
HOW MUCH more damage? I dunno. Double? A number of times equal to the crit damage modifier of the weapon used (plus the addition of an exotic dagger with a X3 crit damage mod)?
When playing a low level rogue this is how combats went. I was either really effective and mowing through enemies or I was maybe doing base weapon damage (which is useless by level 6).
Some friends and I are working on a rogue rewrite. The only way we really see to do that is to make sneak attack a mechanic, but not the core mechanic of the class.
Once finals week is over(for me that's tomorrow), I will write it up and post it on the forums.
Since rogue benefits more from allies than most other classes, Leadership should be central to an optimized rogue build.
LEadership however is not allowed in many games. Particularly PFS.
Leadership should be central to an optimized rogue build.
.... and this is what makes me sad about the rogue. Essentially it comes down to another better class is needed to step in solve all the rogues problems so that he can be on par with other classes.
We play with leadership. But we do so with the understanding that just because you can have a cohort and followers that does not mean they just spring into existence. You can pick and choose from what the campaign setting has to offer. No one has yet to take this gamble.
So no this is not a 1000 post thread about how the rogue needs fixing. It's a 1000 post help center for a class that's tough to use..I am not Paizo, (nor do I even play one on TV) but Ill point out that no one in that 1000 post thread agree on HOW to fix the rogueHEY PAIZO!
Take note. You have a 1000 post thread on your forums discussing how one of your core classes needs fixing. Can you guy get a move on already?
Perhaps you're reading a different thread than I am. Mind you, that may be what the OP wants to keep the thread locked onto, but even so no one agree on how to do even that.
But maybe I have missed a post or two, so what is the consensus? Has everyone agreed here on how to "make the rogue work"? What is that consensus?
And if the question is "how to make the rogue do more DPR" or whatever, then does that "fix' the rogue?
Bear in mind, I am replying to the post that sez "HEY PAIZO!
Take note. You have a 1000 post thread on your forums discussing how one of your core classes needs fixing. "I don't see any agreement or consensus on "how the rogue class needs fixing".
Exactly, and you guys have some great ideas. But that was why I responded to the "HEY PAIZO!"
because that's NOT what this thread is about, is it? And that was my point. Helping folks build better rogues? Great. Fun as the class is, it's not a Tier 1 or 2 or even 3 class, so a guide and help is a Good Thing. Saying that Paizo has to "fix" what "ain't broke" isn't helping.
Great. Fun as the class is
Fun?
Fun is being useless every other session, because the opponent happens to be out of melee range.
Fun is fighting enemies in cramped dungeons where the idea of flanking is laughable.
Fun is QQing everytime an enemy backs into a corner.
FUN is playing a different class, or a campaign without combat anywhere but 30ft by 30ft open areas.
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Sub Zero! You did your math wrong on your magic items!
Relevant Gear Equipment: (62,000
- +3 shocking composite bow
- +4 belt of dex/ strength
- gloves of dueling
- Bracers of archery
- boots of speed
Here's what it should be:
Relevant Gear Equipment: (62,000- +3 shocking composite bow 32,000
- +4 belt of dex/ strength 16,000
- gloves of dueling 15,000
- Bracers of archery 5,000
- boots of speed 12,000
=80,000! Silly you!
Anyways, I have an updated build going, I figure I'll make a whole guide while I'm making all of these builds for ranged combat. Here's the link, the drow build is under "Concealment". Note that, at this moment, there's not much else there other than some revelvant information.
Sub Zero! You did your math wrong on your magic items!
Relevant Gear Equipment: (62,000
- +3 shocking composite bow
- +4 belt of dex/ strength
- gloves of dueling
- Bracers of archery
- boots of speed
Here's what it should be:
Relevant Gear Equipment: (62,000
- +3 shocking composite bow 32,000
- +4 belt of dex/ strength 16,000
- gloves of dueling 15,000
- Bracers of archery 5,000
- boots of speed 12,000=80,000! Silly you!
Anyways, I have an updated build going, I figure I'll make a whole guide while I'm making all of these builds for ranged combat. Here's the link, the drow build is under "Concealment". Note that, at this moment, there's not much else there other than some revelvant information.
The 62,000 was a remnant from the level 10 build I did. It shouldn't have been there. Still I still had 60,000 extra in gear to up the fighter.
There is a rogue/cleric in a game that I play who doesn't have much in the way of DPR, but his ability to scout is very important to the group.
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Great. Fun as the class isFun?
Fun is being useless every other session, because the opponent happens to be out of melee range.
Fun is fighting enemies in cramped dungeons where the idea of flanking is laughable.
Fun is QQing everytime an enemy backs into a corner.
FUN is playing a different class, or a campaign without combat anywhere but 30ft by 30ft open areas.
get this item Sniper Goggles then QFT
get this item Sniper Goggles then QFTGreat. Fun as the class isFun?
Fun is being useless every other session, because the opponent happens to be out of melee range.
Fun is fighting enemies in cramped dungeons where the idea of flanking is laughable.
Fun is QQing everytime an enemy backs into a corner.
FUN is playing a different class, or a campaign without combat anywhere but 30ft by 30ft open areas.
20,000 gold for the opportunity to do NOTHING!
You still have to be able to sneak attack at range to do more than base weapon damage. So provided that there is cover or some other form of concealment you can do 1 sneak attack per round through snipping. Woo?
Ring of invisibility would be more useful, as long as you're against foes without true seeing or the like.
Man everyone and their grandma has true seeing at high levels =(
"Whose there dearie?"
"Dangit Grandma!"
"Dont you be touching that cookie jar!"
Yep ring of invisibility. Standard action to activate. Standard actions for sneak attack. Standard action to activate ring again. Oh and you still need sniper goggles to hit enemies beyond 30ft.
True, I was just poking fun at it :)
i know :P.
I'm looking forward to seeing your other builds btw. The first one wasn't my favorite, but maybe the others will have some ommph.