My buddies and I took a stab at rewriting the rogue.
Problems with original rogue:
1)No valid ranged option.
2)At low levels sneak attack was a lot of damage, making the set up a valid constraint. At mid-high levels a rogue needs to sneak attack to be useful. My buddies and I do not like the idea of a class being situationally useful. The rogue doesn't need to be the best at combat or damage, but they should always be able to do better than base weapon damage.
3)rogue talents are lack luster.
Solutions:
1)Allow core mechanic to work with ranged weapons
2)Change Sneak Attack so that it is not longer the core mechanic of the class
3)Two minor adjustment to talents, but for the most part leave them as is and add additional abilities of a more combat focused variety.
Design philosophy:
1) no flat addition to to-hit rolls.
reason: Creating to-hit bonuses is a careful balance. We didn't want to create a dex fighter, but we also didn't want the rogues attacks to feel lack luster. We decided to make rogue attacks more punishing when they hit as opposed to making rogues hit more often. We also added ways for a rogue to gain extra attacks to make up for their lower chance of hitting.
2) situationally awesome, always useful
reason: Our goal was not to make the rogue unique or perform a protected niche roll. We simply want the rogue to have various options at their disposal when they wish to contribute to combat. But at the same time we did not wish to make "the dex-fighter class".
3) maintain rogue tropes
We still let the rogue have a difficult time handling enemies immune to precision damage (which there are few of). This stems from the same legacy thinking that had us make sure that flanking was uniquely advantageous for the rogue. This is also why sneak attack is still a mechanic, but no longer THE core mechanic.
4) Dex and Int
We wanted to make sure that the Dex/Int rogue was viable and rewarding to play. The term "skillmonkey" is thrown around a lot when talking about rogues. Since people want to be able to play rogues as a skill monkey we wanted to make sure Int was also important for combat not just for more skill points. The focus on dex has more to do with point 3. We know some people love their strength rogues, but we think that option should be an archetype not the arguable "best way" to build a rogue.
*bump*
IMHO, at a quick glance, looks a bit OP in a sense that it really is a kind of fighting build, I dislike this, mostly because by my philosophy a rogue is a support/skill monkey, he should not be able to go toe to toe with most enemies, unless specific archetypes come into play.
Now this doesn't really mean this is bad, it's just not my cup of tea. Some traits and abilities do look nice and wold be great as rogue talents, and not flat features one gets anyway.
Your problems:
1) No ranged option... Sneak attack is a good ranged option to 30'. But I agree that beyond that they have nothing interesting. So maybe a feat (far shot?) or talent to extend the range.
2) Yes, very situational. IMHO the real issue is that (darkvision aside) they can't sneak attack in the shadows, which is just silly. Also, sneak attacks should be multiplied on a crit.
3) Oh goodness me yes. Almost all are substantially worse than feats, and often worse than traits. Some are even worse than nothing.
Your solutions:
1) Eh? It does already, just not often.
2) I suppose you could use an archetype like scout. Not sure what you're getting at.
3) Unless your two minor adjustments are to give them 2 talents per level and 3 on Sundays, I think this is not enough.
Not sure what you're actually proposing.
Not sure what you're actually proposing.
Did you read the link?
my philosophy a rogue is a support/skill monkey, he should not be able to go toe to toe with most enemies, unless specific archetypes come into play.
That's my idea too, but i feel they should have a support combat role AND be able to do more than base weapon damage consistently.
On a quick read, it seems OP to me as well. Precise attacks seems very powerful. If you limited it to 1 application of bleed/round, that might be more balanced. As it is now, a level 1 TWF rogue on a flank could deal 1d8 + str + 1d6 + 1/2 str + 4 (precision damage) + 4 (bleed damage).
That seems like a lot. And what about a critical hit on a sneak attack? Is that x3 then?
The bleed mechanic from simply shooting arrows at an enemy doesn't seem thematically accurate either. The rogue knows where to shoot people to make them bleed? As opposed to a fighter or ranger that's just shooting them to not make them bleed?
Hampering strike seems a bit too powerful as well. On any enemy with 20 ft. movement that cannot heal its self, all it takes is a level 5 rogue to flank the target and hit twice, and their knocked to the ground and unable to stand. Everyone then simply steps back and shoots/reach weapons the enemy to death.
As a GM, I think that tactic would get old really fast.
On a quick read, it seems OP to me as well. Precise attacks seems very powerful. If you limited it to 1 application of bleed/round, that might be more balanced. As it is now, a level 1 TWF rogue on a flank could deal 1d8 + str + 1d6 + 1/2 str + 4 (precision damage) + 4 (bleed damage).
That seems like a lot. And what about a critical hit on a sneak attack? Is that x3 then?
The bleed mechanic from simply shooting arrows at an enemy doesn't seem thematically accurate either. The rogue knows where to shoot people to make them bleed? As opposed to a fighter or ranger that's just shooting them to not make them bleed?
Hampering strike seems a bit too powerful as well. On any enemy with 20 ft. movement that cannot heal its self, all it takes is a level 5 rogue to flank the target and hit twice, and their knocked to the ground and unable to stand. Everyone then simply steps back and shoots/reach weapons the enemy to death.
As a GM, I think that tactic would get old really fast.
Some things to clarify.
Bleed damage does not stack with itself as per bleed damage rules.
Sneak attack says sneak attacks cannot crit.
This rogue only sneak attacks against foes who are denied their dex bonus. Flanking doesn't cause them to sneak attack.
Hampering strike does not stack with itself.
Guys. I just want to point out. A quick read will probably miss a lot of the different things I've changed and added. Just because I borrowed some wording does not mean the ability works the same.
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The precision damage limitation is worded a bit funny. Try using the same wording as Canny Defense, more streamlined with current rules.
" Additionally, a rogue threatens all squares within one range increment for the purposes of attacks of opportunity and may use a range weapon as part of an attack of opportunity." This is very OP. A rogue with a longbow can make attacks of opportunity out to 100 ft? The earliest people start getting AoO with a bow is 9th level, at 5 ft range (As per the feat and Zen Archer Ability). Any ranged character who 2 level dip into this for that ability. Perhaps turn it down (Up to 15 ft, MAX) AND push it back further into the rogue. Perhaps a level master rogue trick?
For the precision effects, dazzled is a lesser form of blind, but it requires twice as much. Perhaps reverse those two?
Sneak attack is asking for some abuse. RAGELANCEPOUNCE has a new best friend, the rogue. Take a mount, a lance, spirited charge, and mounted skirmisher. Thats 3*3*Weapon Damage.
In that regards, sneak attack is a lesser form of vital strike.
Overall, there are some good points. The precision damage concept is good, though it could use balancing and some adjustments.
Though, it does make me wonder. Why all of this effort to make a rogue more combat oriented when there's the Ninja, the combat oriented rogue?
@FrodoOf9Fingers
I don't think the reasoning that rangers and fighters can't do that with bows is a reason rogues should be unable to. This rogues attacks do very little damage compared to those other classes and it's not like a rogue can force people to generate an AOO at range. I wanted to do something that benefited a range rogue to use teamwork, much like the melee way to use opportunist.
You mixed up the dazed effect and the dazzled effect.
I'm not sure how you are getting 3*3*Weapon damage. sneak attack is a X2 and when sneak attacking you don't add strength to damage rolls. Plus the foe still needs to be denied there dex bonus for that combo to work.
As for the rogue being combat oriented? That's not the goal. The goal is to make sure that the rogue is rarely in a situation where they are doing base weapon damage. Personally, I consider Ninja a different class. Having not played a ninja or seen a ninja played a normal campaign, I have nothing to say about it. (Although I think their access to invisibility does alleviate a lot of the central problems).
Guys. I just want to point out. A quick read will probably miss a lot of the different things I've changed and added. Just because I borrowed some wording does not mean the ability works the same.
Keep in mind you're asking people to spend their free time to evaluate something in-depth that you created. If you were to break this out into one or two elements at a time, you may have better luck.
Secondly, I highly recommend against using names of abilities that are already used and simply changing them to new mechanics. Call it laziness or mental slip, or whatever you wish, but when I see sneak attack I immediately think sneak attack as it has generally worked for the last several years.
So in summary, I suggest you break the build down into easily digestible parts if you want more feedback, and secondly, come up with unique names for unique mechanics.
I suggest you break the build down into easily digestible parts if you want more feedback.
Fair enough.
1) Sneak attack was nerfed to only work against dex bonus denied foes. (basically flat footed foes). Instead of bonus damage sneak attacks do double damage. At later levels the rogue can spend a full-round action to do triple and quadruple damage as a way to silently kill foes.
2) Instead of sneak attack being the primary damage source for rogues we have additional precision damage. This damage is vastly more consistent than sneak attack, but also far less damaging.
3) Rogue talents are only really weak for combat. So instead of buffing them, I've added ways for rogues to apply conditions to their foes. These abilities closely tie in with Int, encouraging rogues to increase that stat, allowing them to be better skillmonkeys without gimping their character.
4) I wanted to create situational damage opportunities for the rogue that benefit from teamwork. The Opportunist ability represents that.
My buddies and I took a stab at rewriting the rogue.
So assuming: 20th level, 30 dex, Piranha Strike, +5 agile static damage would be:
+10 (dex)
+12 (p.strike)
+5 (weapon)
------
+27
So, standard sneak attack comes out at 10d6 (35 damage).
Rogue = +62 on a hit (27+35).
Your new sneak attack/precise attack deal is: +10 from level (multiplied on a sneak, so I assume that's the double damage from sneak attack. So I'll assume x2). = +20. Then a +40 bleed (x2 multiplier again on sneak attack)
Double damage is 54 (27x2). +20 from precise attack (+74), then an additional +40 bleed damage. (+114).
The damage is more consistent, and better than a normal rogue. Just the double damage alone brings it close enough to a sneak attack hitting rogue (8 points lower).
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack deals double damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not). Sneak attacks cannot crit and do not add their strength modifier to weapon damage rolls. This extra damage is precision damage.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Precise Attack: A rogue deals additional precision damage with slashing and piercing weapons. This bonus damage is equal to her rogue level or dexterity modifier, whichever is lower. Additionally, these attacks do bleed damage equal to her rogue level. Both the precision and bleed damage is multiplied on critical hits and sneak attacks.
2) Instead of sneak attack being the primary damage source for rogues we have additional precision damage. This damage is vastly more consistent than sneak attack, but also far less damaging.
Sneak attack only happens against flat footed foes. You can't assume sneak attacking. (Also you can't add dex to damage on sneak attacks. Sneak attack prevents adding strength modifier to attacks, and agile just allows the wielder to add dex instead of strength, but that damage is still prevented by sneak attack.)
But I did forget about agile weapons. That adds too much damage. (p strike is not a factor. Driving your to-hit to abysmally low levels doesn't increase your actual damage). I didn't want to remove strength damage from precise attack.
hmmm I'll have to think on the agile weapon problem.
Sneak attack only happens against flat footed foes. You can't assume sneak attacking. (Also you can't add dex to damage on sneak attacks. Sneak attack prevents adding strength modifier to attacks, and agile just allows the wielder to add dex instead of strength, but that damage is still prevented by sneak attack.)
Shatter Defenses + Cornugon Smash gains flat footed on a target.
You call out strength not being added. What is preventing an agile weapon from adding dex to the hit? Also your doc doesn't state flat footed, it states denied dex bonus.
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack deals double damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not). Sneak attacks cannot crit and do not add their strength modifier to weapon damage rolls. This extra damage is precision damage.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Precise Attack: A rogue deals additional precision damage with slashing and piercing weapons. This bonus damage is equal to her rogue level or dexterity modifier, whichever is lower. Additionally, these attacks do bleed damage equal to her rogue level. Both the precision and bleed damage is multiplied on critical hits and sneak attacks.
Also look at the bleed on the x4 hit. How long does it last? An 80 point bleed is a bit much I think. You hit a caster 1 time and he's done. Granted you can just outright kill the guy at 20, but I'm looking at the multipliers. At 10th level, that's a 10 point bleed. 30 on the sneak attack. I don't know many casters that can take casting through 30 points of bleed all the time.
(Unless you're a mythic caster and taking the ability to never fail conc. checks.)
Yes. Regardless sneak attacking is not something you can assume happens like flanking.
Strength can't be added to sneak attacks. Agile replaces the strength mod to weapon damage rolls with dex. Sneak attack still prevents that because it is still adding "strength" to the damage roll, but just doing it with the dex mod.
A strength base rogue would have lower dex and thus lower precision damage. The precision damage is limited by both dex mod and level.
I think you need to look at the combos available. Flat Footed will happen enough in a game with players that have system mastery that you should determine if it's working as you intend, or not.
Also look at the bleed on the x4 hit. How long does it last? An 80 point bleed is a bit much I think. You hit a caster 1 time and he's done. Granted you can just outright kill the guy at 20, but I'm looking at the multipliers. At 10th level, that's a 10 point bleed. 30 on the sneak attack. I don't know many casters that can take casting through 30 points of bleed all the time.
Bleed works as per bleed rules unless stated otherwise.
You make a good point about the bleed criting being high. I didn't consider something that can be removed with a potion of CLW to be devastating, but I don't want the rogue one-shoting equal level characters with decent amounts of health.
I think you need to look at the combos available. Flat Footed will happen enough in a game with players that have system mastery that you should determine if it's working as you intend, or not.
Agile weapons is not working as intended. That is for certain. Ignoring the sneak attack, I have a combo that would give a rogue with 30 dex at lvl 20 weapon damage + 10 precision + 10 agile + 10 more precision.
That's incorrect and is not working as intended.
There changed precise attacks and sneak attack to
1) add clarity to how agile weapons worked with sneak attack
2) to limit damage spiking from certain scenarios.
the best way to play a rogue is gunslinger 5 or 7, and ninja the rest of the way :D
no seriously it's the best way i found.. .the damage is smexy.
the best way to play a rogue is gunslinger 5 or 7, and ninja the rest of the way :D
no seriously it's the best way i found.. .the damage is smexy.
So the best way to play a rogue is to not play the rogue class?
Hence the rewrite.
the best way to play a rogue is gunslinger 5 or 7, and ninja the rest of the way :D
no seriously it's the best way i found.. .the damage is smexy.
So the best way to play a rogue is to not play the rogue class?
Hence the rewrite.
Ninja is an archetype :P
Ninja is an archetype :Pthe best way to play a rogue is gunslinger 5 or 7, and ninja the rest of the way :D
no seriously it's the best way i found.. .the damage is smexy.
So the best way to play a rogue is to not play the rogue class?
Hence the rewrite.
Technically it is an alternate class.
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While it can be echoed that certain features do beg for abuse, let me add that the same can be said for ALL CLASSES. Part of why the rogue feels "underpowered" to a lot of people is because there were so few cases of abuse to match the game-breaking potential of other classes. that doesn't mean it should be the final version, but I felt that worth mentioning.
That said, I find effect of bleed damage being a quasi-resource to be unusual and intriguing. Trading bleed damage for additional effects, and limiting it to rogue level, does offer a tremendous leap in consistency and options over the traditional sneak attacks that rogues relied upon.
Side note: I've always kind of felt that a bonus to damage that only applies when you hit an enemy who's already pretty much screwed was kinda...pointless, really. Your new version of sneak attack is, essentially, an auto-crit mechanic to replace the extra d6's, but I can see reasons for not just calling it criticals in order to avoid use with critical feats. On the other hand, those feats might just be what the doctor ordered...who knows?
The precision damage brings an odd conundrum: if it deals the lower of dex or level, it may create odd choices of rogues who do NOT want dex because it won't help their precision damage at all. Then, the same character will have the problem of not having enough dex because if he doesn't have it, the precision damage stops growing once it hits the DEX mod. In the end, it may solve itself in a way, but I foresee that kind of inverse relationship turning people off. Something to ponder.
As for talents, while I agree that some/many are underwhelming, my problem with talents is that some simply do not function RAW (underhanded comes to mind) or require feat and or/skill investment to function at all. Mind you, with your rewrite, some talents are actually completely obsolete. This may or may not be a good thing, depending on your perspective. In fact, your proposal for the precision and bleed damage mechanics almost necessitates a rewrite of several talents (they needed it already, but this design would make it quite mandatory.)
Either way, I fully encourage further review and revision; it's good to see a new idea on this front that proposes evolution, instead of band-aids and scapegoat suggestions. I can appreciate this. Carry on the good work.
And let's not get started on the ninja. That is, and should be, a different class for a reason. Different flavor, different purposes, different focus, different mechanics required. It should have simply been a class, not this confusing "alternate class" business.
The precision damage brings an odd conundrum: if it deals the lower of dex or level, it may create odd choices of rogues who do NOT want dex because it won't help their precision damage at all. Then, the same character will have the problem of not having enough dex because if he doesn't have it, the precision damage stops growing once it hits the DEX mod. In the end, it may solve itself in a way, but I foresee that kind of inverse relationship turning people off. Something to ponder.
That was done because I wanted rogues to be able to add dex to their damage rolls, but at the same time, I didn't want rogue to be a one level dip for dex-fighters.
Furthermore, I feel like dex rogues doing equal damage to fighters at level 1 would be wrong. By the time the rogue starts adding full dex mod to damage, the fighter should have weapon training and power attack to put their damage ahead.
Sneak attack only happens against flat footed foes.<snip> Also your doc doesn't state flat footed, it states denied dex bonus.Marthkus, plainly we have to be careful with terminology. "denied a Dexterity bonus to AC" is not strictly synonymous with "flat footed". Indeed, because of feats like Uncanny Dodge, one can be flat footed but not denied that bonus. I was confident you really meant what you wrote in the linked document, "denied a Dexterity bonus to AC", NOT simply(?) flat-footed, preserving the utility of the Uncanny Dodge feats. (that is, with those feats, when flat-footed, you don't lose that bonus).
It doesn't matter. I mean it as "when you would be denied a dex bonus to AC". Which still does not happen often in combat, so sneak attack damage is not representative of your normal attack.
(In are group, we refer to whenever you are denied a dex bonus as flat footed, because it is less of a mouthful).
Strength can't be added to sneak attacks. Agile replaces the strength mod to weapon damage rolls with dex. Sneak attack still prevents that because it is still adding "strength" to the damage roll, but just doing it with the dex mod.
I don't follow this. Why is the dex bonus to damage for an Agile weapon considered "adding strength"? Is there some precedent in the existing rules for this interpretation?
The description of the Agile property doesn't indicate it, but I would consider the damage corresponding to dex mod as precision damage.Since your Precise Attack adds damage from the dex modifier, does the Agile weapon property become redundant for this Rogue?
I've added extra clarification in sneak attack. For Precise attacks, agile does stack with the additional precision damage (foes immune to precision damage take full effect from agile), but it is redundant in that a rogue using agile doesn't do bleed damage. There is also a "precise attack" that allows the rogue to trade bleed damage for additional precision damage. I didn't want the agile weapon property to be something that the rogue must depend on or even benefit from.
Sneak attack only happens against flat footed foes.<snip> Also your doc doesn't state flat footed, it states denied dex bonus.Marthkus, plainly we have to be careful with terminology. "denied a Dexterity bonus to AC" is not strictly synonymous with "flat footed". Indeed, because of feats like Uncanny Dodge, one can be flat footed but not denied that bonus. I was confident you really meant what you wrote in the linked document, "denied a Dexterity bonus to AC", NOT simply(?) flat-footed, preserving the utility of the Uncanny Dodge feats. (that is, with those feats, when flat-footed, you don't lose that bonus).
It doesn't matter. I mean it as "when you would be denied a dex bonus to AC". Which still does not happen often in combat, so sneak attack damage is not representative of your normal attack.
(In are group, we refer to whenever you are denied a dex bonus as flat footed, because it is less of a mouthful).
Not to be nit picky, however if you're submitting rules for the PF community to review, I'd recommend using the Paizo definitions, not your groups definition. The community can't read anything more than what you're submitting to them. Write for the target audience, otherwise you invite misinterpretation and confusion.
I didn't want the agile weapon property to be something that the rogue must depend on or even benefit from.
Agile weapons were designed to help dex characters, which most rogues are. Why do you want to prohibit rogues from using a weapon buff that is designed for them? Not having them depend on something is quite different than not allowing them to benefit from it at all.
"no ability mod to damage" for sneak attack is fiddly. As in, inelegant. As in, you're forcing me to deal with a conditional exception, without visibly improving gameplay.
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack deals double damage anytime her target is flat footed. Sneak attacks cannot crit. This extra damage is precision damage.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Precise Attack: A rogue deals additional precision damage with trained weapons. This bonus damage is equal to her intelligence modifier.
A rogue may forgo applying the additional precision damage to deal bleed damage. This extra damage is 1d6 at 3rd level, and increases by 1d6 every three rogue levels thereafter to a maximum of 6d6. Bleeding can be stopped by a Heal check (DC 10+Int Mod+number of bleed dice) or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage in excess of the bleed damage. The bleed does not stack with any other type of bleed. The bleed is not multiplied on a crit, or sneak attack.
My reasoning is that the sneak attack and precise strike are making Dex to valuable. There are more than enough feats/abilities to get dex added to attacks/damage. No need to deal with wedge cases (agile) if the stat is swapped to another that rogues need. Also, players like rolling dice.
Just off the top of my head, no number crunching was done, so perhaps the flat-footed on sneak attacking can go back to flanking/denied dex.
I was thinking about the rogue and while I like the bleed idea, I got to thinking about traps. What about making devices as a rogue and using them in a fight. Custom caltrops, better poisons, traps that go boom etc. If we take a stock rogue, add the sneak attack damage to the trap that's being built, or device, or whatever. I think the rogues flexibility should be looked at, not just damage and what can be done when pounding on someone. A smoke bomb mixed with tear gas or something for a mean minded rogue.
** spoiler omitted **
Your sneak attack: Allows ability mod to damage. Meaning rogue becomes a must-level-dip for Cornugon Smash feat chain fighter builds, so that they can do double damage on attacks.
Your Precise attack: You reduced overall damage to add variability to the bleed damage, making "precise strikes" harder to use.
I have no intention of rewriting the rogue to still depend on rare magical items that may not even exist in the world they play in.
"no ability mod to damage" for sneak attack is fiddly. As in, inelegant. As in, you're forcing me to deal with a conditional exception, without visibly improving gameplay.
The original sneak attack is an inelegant mess of rules full of inelegant exceptions.
Furthermore, it is not no ability mod to damage. It says no strength mod to damage (this includes bonuses that replace strength mod). That clarification was added because many do not see that as an apparent feature of the rules.
Agile weapons are a bad "fix" to dex based characters. If I'm rewriting a class, I'm not going to make them dependent on having a particular special ability on their magical weapons. Forcing players to craft or find their special agile weapons is not a good design choice.
Since your Precise Attack adds damage from the dex modifier, does the Agile weapon property become redundant for this Rogue?For Precise attacks, agile does stack with the additional precision damage (foes immune to precision damage take full effect from agile)are these PF or house rules?
but it is redundant in that a rogue using agile doesn't do bleed damage.So a rogue gets either bleed damage or additional precision when using a weapon with the Agile Weapon property?
There is also a "precise attack"...I think you meant the "greater precision" ability of "Precise Strike" here?
I didn't want the agile weapon property to be something that the rogue must ... benefit from.Your Precise Attack feature does give the class a dex benefit to damage already; adding it again for the weapon might be too much. Maybe in a campaign where this feature, and maybe similar feats exist, the Agile Weapon property does not?
PF
yesI did. My mistake. That was a possible name for the ability line and I got it mixed up.
Right it is too much. I'm not going to create campaign setting dependent abilities though. I would sooner just remove the agile property from the game. Instead I limited the amount of strength damage the rogue can add, and clarified that the agile property is considered additional strength damage.
I would sooner just remove the agile property from the game.This would be my choice. I'd rather support dextrous characters' attack skills through class features and feats than special items.
I would agree. But at the moment I am only rewriting the rogue. Not all dex based characters.
Do you find that Rogues are more dependent on magic items than other classes?
Oh God yes!
Assuming your not building a strength rogue, it seems that every rogue MUST grab the agile weapon property. Furthermore the only decent range option for a rogue is to use wands.
1) I like the way sneak attack works. To me it makes sense that you are not muscling through an opponents defenses. Additionally Improved sneak attack and Greater sneak attack allow a rogue to actually one shot creatures several levels below him, unlike current sneak attack which tickles lvl 10 foes from a lvl 20 rogue.
(one notable abuse is RAGELANCEPOUCE barbar with crogun smash chain. Targets are flat-footed and take a fullattack doing X6 damage.)
2) I actually don't like rolling dice. To me it just takes up valuable play time.
3) One of my early ideas for the rogue was to have Int mod add to damage, to hit, saves, AC. But one of my buddies told me that "free stats" doesn't balance games well. He drew several examples to League of Legends and the PF fighter "fix". I like that int is something you need to inflict status effects, but is not something you need for damage.
4) I'm hesitant to touch rogue talents in any significant way. If I add a few things like that, I would need to rewrite all the talents
5) Keep in mind we need to keep the rogues consistent damage far lower than what it was with 10d6 in sneak attack. Which was about +45 (agile + 10d6). Right now the rogue can do +20 (precise attacks+grater precision), additionally the rogue can get an extra 10 attacks from opportunist situationally. So we already have a rogue that can do more damage than the original rogue. We want to avoid adding any more damage at all cost.
If your new sneak attack is to good to let people dip for it, perhaps it should be reworked so people can take some rogue levels and not have what you consider an overpowered character.
But I agree, changing bleed to dice of damage probably ruins your nifty Precise Strike converting bleed to other effects.
I don't see it ruining it. Sometimes you'd have to apply the bleed again, others you'd end up being able to apply the effects you want and have high bleed damage. It gives a player some variety and would make them consider reapplying bleeds to try and get a better result. Do they go for the gamble and try for a better bleed roll? Lose some precision damage and try again.
On the slashing piercing being taken out of what I suggested - I was thinking of Saps, clubs, light maces etc. Blunt weapons are out there that should get love too.
On a note on double damage etc. I'm not a fan of multiples on a hit. After playing a Paladin and abusing Litany of Righteousness, I've seen a lot of double damage shenanigans. (In the PFS scenario where you fight a certain famous level 18 wizard, I one rounded it at 10th using double damage, call me jaded I guess.)
Rolling dice - I've yet to see a player who picks up a stack of dice, and lands four "6's" on a 5d6 fireball who's face doesn't emote something positive. The converse is true too (4 "1's" makes sad faces). The dice play off the gamble. Luck. Removing that cheapens the core of what the game is based on, which is pure luck. There is a reason that rolling dice is such a popular and enjoyable pastime for people. Adding multiples might solve a mathematical problem more elegantly, however we're dealing with the emotions of people as they play, not just math. Group interaction comes into play too. How often do players and DM's lean in on the table to watch their buddy roll that save vs. certain death? Can someone drop the baddie on the last turn of the round before "Bob" gets splatted? Randomness of the dice adds tension. Tension is good in a story and game.
To follow up on my previous post regarding the double damage being to good to allowing a dip. That means it's to better than it should be imo and should be re-examined. If it has to be nerfed to let only single class rogues benefit, and it's not worth anyone taking a few rogue levels, it should be re-examined also.
The descriptions for Improved Sneak Attack and Greater Sneak Attack specify "spend a full-attack action to make a single attack". Does that "full attack action" refer to one of the attacks the Rogue can make in a Full Attack action, or is that meant to indicate the Improved and Greater Sneak Attacks constitute full round actions, so that a 15th level Rogue could make one Greater Sneak Attack OR up to three normal attacks (at +11/+6/+1) as a full round action.
One attack