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yeah, the Shanker (in the guide to the builds thread) is a pretty okay knife rogue guy.
Really if you want to go daggers then you sort of have to go switch hitter with Rapid Shot and TWF. Mechanically there really is no other justification.
Check my Shuriken flinging Goblin for a few ideas on how to pull this off. Basic idea is that with the bandit archetype you can deal crazy damage in the surprise round by pulling of a full attack. Then you use your pet as a flanking friend to get your SA in.
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I don't see Improved Feint as a trap at all. With Improved Feint, Greater Feint, Moonlight Stalker Feint and a wand (cloak) of Blur you can effectively feint as a swift action and SA thru your full attack action. Granted, it is a hefty feat chain that doesn't come together until level 9 or so but then that is when your full attack and SA dice really start to add up. As a bonus, you can continue doing SA damage every round (as long as your feint succeeds).
To clarify. I am not saying you have to use a dagger, or that you can't be a thug with a beater weapon. I just wish it could be possible to get a character like Merisiel to actually be viable.
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Here the problem with using spells and magic items to help in social situations instead of skills.
NPC(Well at least mine) are not dumb and Know magic things exist.
using magic and magic items to get past the guard at the front gate, on a Tavern wench or the leader of a goblin scouting party , but if you need to borrow a Copy of the Book of Hidden Darkness from the local Monastery, and go in with a couple of spells and magic items to help you make your case , The Head Monk attitude is going to go from indifference to hostile and he is going to toss you out before you can say a word.
Try going in front of the local Count presence glowing of magic like a nuclear reactor with out his permission , and he going to send you to visit the Dungeon to see if you are a thief or a assassin.
I don't see Improved Feint as a trap at all. With Improved Feint, Greater Feint, Moonlight Stalker Feint and a wand (cloak) of Blur you can effectively feint as a swift action and SA thru your full attack action. Granted, it is a hefty feat chain that doesn't come together until level 9 or so but then that is when your full attack and SA dice really start to add up. As a bonus, you can continue doing SA damage every round (as long as your feint succeeds).
Ultimately its not a trap, but rather a big feat tax.
Chances are that once you have moonlight stalker feint, you will no longer get any benefit from improved feint. Its also highly likely that you will never use expertise. And it sucks to have valuable feats providing zero benefit.
At least with some of the other maneuver feats you get a bonus to CMB
Here the problem with using spells and magic items to help in social situations instead of skills.
NPC(Well at least mine) are not dumb and Know magic things exist.
using magic and magic items to get past the guard at the front gate, on a Tavern wench or the leader of a goblin scouting party , but if you need to borrow a Copy of the Book of Hidden Darkness from the local Monastery, and go in with a couple of spells and magic items to help you make your case , The Head Monk attitude is going to go from indifference to hostile and he is going to toss you out before you can say a word.
Try going in front of the local Count presence glowing of magic like a nuclear reactor with out his permission , and he going to send you to visit the Dungeon to see if you are a thief or a assassin.
In even the strictest sense though you still run into the problem that the bard does everything you do, but better.
The bard starts out with 2 less skill points per level. By level 2, they're only 1 point down, and by 6th level they have the same skill points as a rogue, and after that they have more skill points.
In addition, they have a better reason to have a high charisma score. It's their primary casting stat, so it doesn't hamper them. A rogue on the who puts points in charisma is taking away from their combat effectiveness.
I'm not saying that you can't do it, just that everything a rogue is good at can be accomplished more effectively by another class, and that other class will more easily contribute to combat.
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I don't see Improved Feint as a trap at all. With Improved Feint, Greater Feint, Moonlight Stalker Feint and a wand (cloak) of Blur you can effectively feint as a swift action and SA thru your full attack action. Granted, it is a hefty feat chain that doesn't come together until level 9 or so but then that is when your full attack and SA dice really start to add up. As a bonus, you can continue doing SA damage every round (as long as your feint succeeds).Ultimately its not a trap, but rather a big feat tax.
Chances are that once you have moonlight stalker feint, you will no longer get any benefit from improved feint. Its also highly likely that you will never use expertise. And it sucks to have valuable feats providing zero benefit.
At least with some of the other maneuver feats you get a bonus to CMB
I agree that the value of Improved Feint diminishes once you go with Moonlight Stalker Feint, but unfortunately it is the only way to get Greater Feint which is required to keep an target flat footed until the start of your next turn. Combat Expertise can be obtained 'free' by dipping two levels in Lore Warden (acquiring two bonus feats along the way) so it is hardly a wasted feat. Combat Expertise will also allow for the Improved Disarm/Disarming Strike chain in later levels. So really, the only feat tax is Improved Feint as you will generally not be using the feat for anything but qualifying for Greater Feint. In a home brew you may even be able to talk your GM into allowing Moonlight Stalker Feint to be used to qualify for Greater Feint.
Well, I think if I were going to overhaul the rogue and really try to raise them up, I would do a few things.
1) I would give them martial weapon proficiency. I would also bootstrap rogue talents and sneak attack to a light or no-armor requirement.
2) I would completely overhaul rogue talents. More than Sneak Attack, I think rogue talents should form the basis of the class. Unfortunately, their power level lies well below feats, and when you compare them to oracle mysteries or barbarian rage powers or any other sort of option list, they fall very short.
Advanced talents in particular should be powerful, since they could not be accessed by a short dip. Someone put up a great thread not long ago that aimed to rework all of the rogue talents. They were looking pretty good.
Instead, rogue talents are fairly weak, and every rogue takes whatever opportunities they can to swap talents for feats.
3) Sneak Attack... this is a weird ability. I don't hate it or anything, but it can regularly put rogues in a position to be useless in a combat. (dungeon filled with immune constructs, incorporeal undead etc.)
How would I change it? Well first things first... sneak attack would only work with ranged weapons or weapons that could apply weapon finesse. This is purely thematic, but it sucks IMO that a rogue is usually better off Sneak Attacking with a two-hander. I would also change the name to something more appropriate like Deadly Precision
Then the ability would read as follows:
Deadly Precision: When wearing light or no armor and not encumbered anytime the Rogue hits a target with a light or one handed melee weapon or a ranged weapon, her attacks deal additional damage as shown on Table:Rogue. If the rogue is attacking a target that is denied a dexterity bonus to AC or is flanking the target, this damage is doubled. Damage from Deadly Precision cannot be doubled if the target is immune to critical hits or has no discernible anatomy. This damage is precision damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit.
The actual damage would be 2 damage at level 1 and every 2 levels thereafter. So, at level 11, a rogue would deal +12 damage with the proposed weapons, +24 if he qualified for a sneak attack. This means that sneak attack is no longer all-or-nothing. You could still build for a sneak attacky build, but you wouldn't have to. For comparison's sake, the normal SA dmg at this level would be 6d6 (21 avg). This also means that a rogue would still be effective against uncritable monsters.
either really. it's almost as if they're replacing them (the monk and rogue, mainly, but the swashbuckler hurts the fighter as well) without actually giving them the courtesy of being removed.
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I don't see Improved Feint as a trap at all. With Improved Feint, Greater Feint, Moonlight Stalker Feint and a wand (cloak) of Blur you can effectively feint as a swift action and SA thru your full attack action. Granted, it is a hefty feat chain that doesn't come together until level 9 or so but then that is when your full attack and SA dice really start to add up. As a bonus, you can continue doing SA damage every round (as long as your feint succeeds).
I hope the blur is not for hiding, as they have already clarified that blur is not enough to initiate stealth while being observed.
So, the Slayer happened...
People aren't liking full BAB sneak attackers?
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They made he rogue work. It's called the Slayer in the Advanced Class Guide Playtest PDF.
Gets full-BAB, so obviously more fighter-y. Skills takes a major butchering (down to 4), Evasion, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device and UMD are gone, the class can do nothing about traps, and Sneak-Attack progression is far slower (so you can't nova as a TWF). Talents are renamed to "Slayer talents" (meaning not applicable to the feat Extra Rogue Talent, and no access to advanced rogue talents or ninja tricks). Capstone ability is lame compared to rogue's.
The slayer may "work", but he's not a rogue in any meaningful sense whatsoever aside from a sprinkling of sneak-attack dice.
I thought it was called the investigator.
These guys totally rock 'til dawn: all the core rogue skills are there, saves like a bard, eventual poison immunity, and some the Inspiration talents are pretty spectacular. ...I predict this class will get nerfed down by publication.
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Deliquescent Gloves. 8k.
Boom. Infinite touch attacks. No SR. No saves. No casting.
Only acid damage. Kind of a bummer. Could probably convince your GM to make different kinds, but I think they would be hard pressed to let you elemental sneak attack willy nilly.
i like the idea of this big time, IF you can make a touch attack in place of a normal attack without casting a spell...
anyone know if there is a rule for this?
holy smokes, you can make a touch attack at any time. you just wont deal damage unless you have an ability that adds damage to a touch attack...
these gloves may be the answer to the rogues inability to hit issues lol.
Well, I feel ready to pack it in and bid the rogue a fond farewell. We did good things. But unless the Investigator sees some very serious changes before release I doubt there's much point to a rogue outside of a game that doesn't include them or slayers.
A sad day.
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Well, I feel ready to pack it in and bid the rogue a fond farewell. We did good things. But unless the Investigator sees some very serious changes before release I doubt there's much point to a rogue outside of a game that doesn't include them or slayers.
A sad day.
I take my back gushing review of Investigator -- they're very good, but they don't get Advanced Talents (so, no Skill Mastery for them).
Skill Mastery, not sneak-attack dice, is what makes the rogue "arrive". -- He alone can do things that no other class would dare. I.e., the difference between an 85%, 90% or 95% chance of success and a 100% chance may not seem like much, but when the tiny chance of failure leads to "you're dead!", how often will you take the risk? Probably only in emergencies. The rogue, otoh, can super-cruise a DC30 or higher all day long by auto-taking-10 on skills which are, for others, nerfed or impossible when being subjected to distractions. Give yourself a mentality of balls-forward bravado, and get away with it.
At least I know what my one advanced talent will be now. What skills do you recommend?
I've personally had a lot of good use out of Skill Mastery for Acrobatics, Bluff, Perception, Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device. I'd also submit Escape Artist and Stealth for consideration.
A few other solid Advanced Talents in my opinion:
-Opportunist, for an extra attack at full BAB. Combines well with Greater Feint.
-Fast Tumble, because -10 to move full-speed while using Acrobatics is a terrible choice.
-Hard to Fool. Very underrated. This thing can get you out of a big range of nasty effects, such as geas, irresistible dance, power word: blind, waves of ecstasy, etc etc etc.
-Matt
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I haven't posted here in awhile, but since the "Death of the Rogue" seems to be a topic, I thought that would be a good reason for me to come in and finally share some build ideas from the rogues which have served me well in PFS. I have played two Rogues so far in PFS, one up to 10th level, while the other is currently 16th.
Fortunately, this build, if you can call it that, is very flexible. It works on a Fighter2/Rogue, a Monk2/Ninja, as well as a straight Rogue. It has room for personalization in the archetypes, attributes, and the exact feat and talent selection.
Mattastrophic's Rouge-Kissed Lady
Human Swashbuckler Rogue, though this is very flexible. I like Lore Warden2/Rake Rogue a lot, for example.
The attributes are pretty flexible, as well.
10 Str
16+2 Dex
14 Con
14 Int
8 Wis
12 Cha
And of course, so is the feat list. I'll post the "vitals."
1: Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise - start with Weapon Finesse at character creation, then swap into Combat Expertise upon hitting 2nd level.
Rog2: Finesse Rogue: Weapon Finesse
3: Gang Up - this can be retrained later, see below
Rog4: ??
5: Improved Trip
Rog6: ??
Human Rog6: ??
7: Combat Reflexes
Rog8: Combat Trick: Greater Trip
At this point, now that the Lady has hit BAB +6, she is free to retrain Gang Up into a leg of feint tree, such as Two-Weapon Fighting/Improved Two-Weapon Fighting/Improved Two-Weapon Feint, or in the Monk/Ninja version, Feinting Flurry/Improved Feint/Greater Feint. Moonlight Stalker/Moonlight Stalker Feint/Improved Feint/Greater Feint is even a possibility, made easier by using eyes of the owl for low-light vision, and an incandescent blue sphere ioun stone slotted in a wayfinder (see Seekers of Secrets) for Blind-Fight. Or she can keep Gang Up if it continues to work. Essentially, for the Lady, Gang Up helps her get sneak attacks in the low-level game, and a feint chain takes over once she hits BAB +6.
Meanwhile, Trip is arguably the most powerful maneuver in the game at these levels, made even better by the fact that the Lady can use any weapon (and thus its enhancement bonuses) to trip, and that Weapon Finesse lets her add her Dex modifier to the attempt instead of her Strength modifier. Trip also lowers her foes' AC by 4, effectively adds 4 to her own AC, and the target has to spend a move action and suffer one or more AOs to remove the condition. Trip also helps keep the target locked in place, making for easier flanks when Gang Up doesn't kick in.
Of course, if Trip is powerful, then Greater Trip is super-powerful, especially when the Lady and an ally or two are all threatening the target. I personally had to refrain from using Greater Trip after seeing it in action, because it led to so many super-easy combats in Tier 10-11 PFS.
There are a lot of ??s in the feat list because, well, there's a lot of room to do whatever you want with the feats. Note that those ??s can quickly become a full chain of feats thanks to retraining. What really matters is taking Combat Expertise and using it as a prerequisite for things like Gang Up, Improved/Greater Trip, and the feint chain.
I've had a lot of success with Rogues in PFS, and the "build-sketch" above pretty much highlights the "core" of that success. As long as you can leverage your Sneak Attack dice and Rogue Talents to make Sneak Attack work consistently, you're fine.
I also believe that the full Sneak Attack progression and the number of Talents represents something about the Rogue that the Investigator, Swashbuckler, and Slayer can't keep up with. And that's a nice thing to know.
-Matt
These along with Crippling Strike.
Ehh... I kept wanting to take Crippling Strike as I moved through the levels, but things kept dying to my full-attacks. Crippling Strike only does anything if the target survives.
-Matt
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The rogue, otoh, can super-cruise a DC30 or higher all day long by auto-taking-10 on skills which are, for others, nerfed or impossible when being subjected to distractions.At least I know what my one advanced talent will be now. What skills do you recommend?
Let's say you haven't trashed your INT, and it's at least a 14; this gives you five entrees for Skill Mastery. In a skullduggery focused campaign, Bluff, Disable Device, Sleight of Hand, Stealth and UMD are all good (UMD in particular because it eliminates the pesky natural 1 problem winking off your item for a day). Disguise is another good one.
Basically, anything you use consequently and succeed on 90+% of the time, but for which infrequent failures would be disastrous. By the low teen levels, your important DEX and CHA skills should be closing on auto:DC35. If you're a halfling or other small race, Stealth should be auto:DC40 in low teens.
Awhile back, I watched a rogue solo an encounter by sneaking aboard a ship at night and methodically slaughtering an entire pirate crew in their bunks. His equipment? A knife and a pillow (for smothering screams).
so assassin's creed then (oh how i play prototype on the military bases).
there's an odd sense of satisfaction sneaking up on the last person in the base, standing oblivious of the slow disappearances of everyone he's known the last few days/months/years, or patrolling as if nothing out of the ordinary happened.
then again that's mostly because stealth is so freaking deadly in both of them, since in other games once you enter their perfect sphere of autodetection-via-telescopic-x-ray-nightvison and they NEVER stop detecting you after that, forcing you to fight.
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All rogues should pick up a reach weapon and the gang-up feat. The problem I have with that is that I can't stand the idea of a long-spear wielding rogue. Another problem I have with rogues is that the amount of skills is nothing but a fancy gimmick past level 7 or 9. At that point, magic can do whatever you do, but better.
My favorite rogue build is a hobgoblin rogue (+2dex/con, darkvision, whip proficiency) who wields two (scorpion) whips. Sadly, you rarely get the opportunity to play a hobgoblin. The hobgoblin nets you the necessary proficiency, the rogue gives you plenty of feats through talents and if your teammates got half a brain between them, you can sneak attack from 15f away. Is this a strong build? Sure, if he's in the ideal position, but a fighter, barbarian or any archer can do the damage he does in any given round, no matter the circumstances.
I could go into the problems with stealth and TWf, but you've all gone over that already. I got one more point to make though - the whole 'chill touch x times a round' doesn't work.
James Jacobs (Creative Director) in response to Produce Flame wrote:
It's a spell, and should therefore function similarly to other touch spells like chill touch. Iterative attacks are SOLELY the province of weapons (and of spells that specifically work like weapons)—touch attacks and natural weapons do not work this way. Therefore, one touch per round with a produce flame, or one hurled flame per round.
For whatever that's worth.
That's really good to know, Reb, thanks.
It's worth noting, though, that while JJ is the Creative Director (and his opinion, thus, has more weight), what he says is only canon for published Golarion. He's extremely knowledgeable, but it's been noted before that his statements are not actual rules-fact, but rather an (important) opinion.
Thus, until it gets FAQ'd, it's still a valid interpretation, if there's no other text negating that interpretation.
Maybe I missed it but what about a build that utilizes a single level dip of monk for maneuver master and then goes twf rogue the rest of the way.
With maneuver master you can pick up improved dirty trick. Then whenever you're in a position to full attack, you blind the opponent (removing his dex to ac) and full attack with an effective +2 attack (-2 ac= the same thing). This also seems to be a very rogue thing to do.
this seems like a non-trap feint effect. Instead of multiple feats, this only takes 1 to make it work (monk bonus feat), and 3 to use the greater version (greater dirty trick will need combat expertise).
Additionally, if the opponent is blinded already you can do a maneuver to stagger him instead.
Additionally, if the opponent is blinded already you can do a maneuver to stagger him instead.
Interesting. Which maneuver causes a target to become Staggered?
-Matt
dirty trick i think
I misspoke you can't stagger him but you can give the shaken, blinded, deafened, sickened, entangled or dazzled.
The main idea is that the maneuver masters ability doesn't eat up an important action.
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Bad Touch Rogue:
Combat casting isn't that big of a deal. Quicken SLA makes 3/day of the chill touches immune to attack of opportunities.
For spring attack, I wanted a way to get into flanks quickly, but I guess acrobatics only works too. If pulling that chain out, I would suggest going for weapon focus and dazzling display possibly for more debuffs.
What I am looking for for the build currently are any feats or magic items that give more debuffs besides sicken. I guess one could take power attack and cornugen smash and get the fear debuffs going. I'd have to raise the strength to 13 though. I'd also love a fatigue effect if I can find one.
The goal of the thread is to make rogues that are playable all the way up. You don't get quicken SLA until 11.
And again, while Chill Touch will work fine in most situations, it wont work in all of them. You'll inevitably need to fall back on a wand or scroll.
Dazzling Display might work out alright.
I'm not sure if Cornugen Smash works. Can you power attack on a touch attack?
Nope. No power attack on touch attack. I think Cornugen Smash is cheesy anyway though and didn't want to up the str.
I need to sit down and read through all the wonderous items and see if there is something there that will get more debuff options. I'd love to make the enemy blinded, sickened, shaken, fatigued, unable to move, str damaged, and staggered.
you could accomplish that by mixing in 4 levels of hexcrafter magus, blindness/deafness in a spell strike + cruel weapon enchant + enforcer/Cournugen Smash + rhyme spell + stunning fist + pressure points (dex is usually the better stat to diminish). then on your next turn hit them with chill touch (frost bite, cant remember which one was the cold damage spell)
i made this character as ninja 8/magus 4 but you could change it to rogue and drop the ki pool completely.
You don't have iron will, your will save will basically be unplayably low.
Will saves are incredibly bad to fail, probably worse than fortitude saves overall. I can't see playing a rogue like this unless it was a no magic campaign.
Well, the actual PFS experience (that particular Rogue had 7 Wis, even) showed that having low Wisdom was not a problem. The low-Wisdom Lady has made 10th level without a hitch.
And if you think the Lady needs Iron Will, then take it. There's plenty of room.
Also, see the part where I said that the attribute spread is flexible. You can take 12 Wisdom, or even 14, and the build will work just fine. 14 Wisdom would open up the awesome combo of the Ki Pool talent, Forgotten Trick, and a Ring of Ki Mastery.
-Matt