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one of the very upset pcs is our former GM. He has been a constant problem to play with. His childish and jerky attitude aside, I still want to make sure that the rules were applied correctly. The other players have very sore feelings from his games when rules were not followed correctly (on both sides) and resulted in disaster. The mechanics and tactics seem right...... The helpless feeling the other pcs have is unfortunate, but that's just how it is. The former gm wanted to have 3 full round actions (Ranger) before they hit the ground...no He then wanted his animal companion to jump off ledge and somehow catch-up with the falling badguy and perform some weird Gandalf vs. Balrog falling fight....noErrr....
Why not? First rule of the GM is to make a fun game for the players to be in, and that should be far and above all other rules. The PC are HEROES and should have every opportunity to save each other by performing HEROIC feats.
Sound to me like you created an encounter specifically to kill a PC.. That's always fun as a player.. (please note the sarcasm)
Your note on That's just how it is, well guess what.. When you GM a game where no one has fun, people get up and leave, that's just how it is.
From a game mechanics standpoint, you may be correct, Enjoy the smugness of being right.. alone.
Read the messages above. he didn't create the encounter, it's part of an AP. And, if memory serves, this is a *hard* encounter. The GM didn't do anything unfair, the villain was losing, and there was a PC asleep right at the edge. It acted evil, and took the PC with it.
The GM isn't always at fault. In this case, it sounds like another GM doesn't like being in the back seat. I've seen this come up more than once. If people throw tantrums because someone died, and walk out... the game is better off without them.
[It's generous to have run this as a grapple.
It could easily have been ruled as picking up an inanimate object (albeit a heavy, floppy one), which wouldn't prevent movement afterward.
PCs regularly hoist helpless allies over their shoulders, before running off with them to safety, without breaking a step.
Maybe they should be forced to stop dead and grapple them, before being allowed to do so?
yeah....but I gave him checks anyway and they still screamed...not the pc who died though
Hum are these players experienced? Or the screaming guy is new to PF?
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He then wanted his animal companion to jump off ledge and somehow catch-up with the falling badguy and perform some weird Gandalf vs. Balrog falling fight....no
Errr....
Why not? First rule of the GM is to make a fun game for the players to be in, and that should be far and above all other rules. The PC are HEROES and should have every opportunity to save each other by performing HEROIC feats.
I'll have to remember that, next time PCs are fleeing from enemies that outnumber them 8 to 1.
The NPCs should all get Retcon Rocketboots, and beat them to death as they run.
Although this wouldn't work normally, this completely works if the creature has the Grab ability and takes -20 to it's CMB.*sigh*
Ok, to reiterate :
PC Is asleep (Helpless)
Standard Action : Grapple helpless opponent (Wakes him up). Beats CMD by 18.
Move Action : While grappled, walk off cliff edge (up to 15 ft of movement).PC get's to try to break free (+4 CMB vs CMD). If failed, PC falls 160ft.
What rules are you using to say that the creature needed grab ability?
RAW everyone can initiate a grapple as a standard action but it incurs an aoo from the target unless you have improved grapple. The target in this case was sleeping and thus no aoo.
You are however correct that you cannot move the target the round you initiate the grapple (unless you have a feat that turns the initiating into a move action or other stuff).
When it becomes initiators turn again he rolls to maintain grapple and if succesful can move the target up to half your speed (as part of the standard action to maintain grapple).http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Grapple For specific rules on the subject.
If the creature had the Grab ability then it would not be considered grappled and could simply use an action to move the same round it initiated the grapple.
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[It's generous to have run this as a grapple.
It could easily have been ruled as picking up an inanimate object (albeit a heavy, floppy one), which wouldn't prevent movement afterward.
PCs regularly hoist helpless allies over their shoulders, before running off with them to safety, without breaking a step.
Maybe they should be forced to stop dead and grapple them, before being allowed to do so?yeah....but I gave him checks anyway and they still screamed...not the pc who died though
I think this is pretty patentedly false. picking up an character that has been knocked out from damage, and picking up an enemy who is just sleeping and can wake up is totally different.
Did the bad guy use feather fall to survive the fall? Because if he did, the other GM is right, there should have been some turns to shoot at the bag guy while he floated down slowly. Feather call caps you falling speed at like 50, or something.
As another person pointed out, you can cast feather fall as an immediate action. I've had players want to wait until near the ground before activating it, so I don't see why the villain couldn't do the same. Immediate implies that it is the quickest possible action, so the villain waits until she is 50 ft. off the ground, then bam. Feather fall.
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From a game mechanics standpoint, you may be correct, Enjoy the smugness of being right.. alone.
no smugness, made this post to see if I ran the encounter wrong. Talked to pc who died today and he was fine with encounter. He said with the exception of the yelling and arguing, it was one of the most fun and challenging fights yet in the AP and he can't wait to get revenge on this nasty villain...I hope they do, I will cheer them on the whole time!!!
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Victor, that's me you're quoting. Don't blame Bran for what I posted, he just didn't get the quote tags right. I'm a big boy, I can take the heat.
This should be far easier than trying to hoist an ally over your shoulder. This just required the NPC to grab a limb, or their collar, or belt, and carry on walking. Let their own weight and gravity do the rest.
Sure, the sleeping PC can wake up. I'd even throw him a bone, make it automatic, without requiring a save or Perception roll.
But waking up in mid-fall isn't going to help him, if he has no swift actions. He's street pizza.
"Huh..whuzzat..sleepy..OHMYGOOOOOOODSHITSHITSHIT" <splat>
I disagree with you on that. People who skydive rutinely spend quite alot of time floating around before finally deploying their parashute.
I know that they all deploy it in good time but that is because a parashute isn't magic and you have to allow for time to deploy your reserve parashute and because a parashute takes time deploying. We are dealing with exact magic and the caster knows it. I would however generally speaking have most (if not all) my npcs trigger feather fall at 60 ft. from the ground.
I generally have a low tolerance for players trying to engage in precision timing and estimations to minimize their exposure to danger. And that includes gauging when you are within 60 feet of the ground when falling at a speed encroaching on 100 mph or so.
ty guys for your comments. this was the first pc death in a campaign that has been running for over a year.
Sounds like your game is too Player Character friendly if anything. It was about time someone died. As a player, I want my games to be dangerous and full of death. Winning each combat should feel like a real victory and not just a boring march towards the PCs inevitable triumph (which has been a real problem in a lot of the games I've played in).
Especially once money/access to Raise Dead becomes available, if PCs aren't dying regularly then something is wrong with the difficulty level of their opponents.
Keep killing them PCs!
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I just have to say that, as a GM and as a Player, I have no issue with the scenario that the OP outlined. He said that the group had some rounds to wake up their friend before the BBEG knocked him off the cliff. He had a save to avoid deep slumber, the GM let him get a check to avoid being knocked off the cliff even though the player shouldn't have gotten one.
Fair is fair.
This sort of thing happens in a lot of games. There are all sorts of resources that a group can spend or invest into avoiding certain situations, and the groups that don't end up getting upset when those situations arise.
I had a blow up when casting Feeblemind on both of a group's casters. They both got saves, they were both high enough to have taken Mind Blank or Spell Turning. The Oracle could even have taken Greater Spell Immunity (which is such a great spell). They got hit in separate rounds, so the Oracle could have cast Heal on the Wizard to negate the effect, but at a certain point, what do I do as a GM? Do I just baby them through? They were level 16... its a 5th level spell. They knew to expect all manner of mind-effecting magic from these enemies.
They chose not to prepare themselves, they chose not to spend resources on important defensive abilities, they chose not to take helpful consumables, they failed their saves. How is that the GM's fault? Take the hit, finish or run from the encounter, then pay the exorbitant fee that it is going to cost you to un-feeblemind the Oracle back in town so he can un-feeblemind the Wizard. Hopefully you learned a lesson.
"Oh well its the GM's job to make things fun so lets never hit the player that tanked their CHA with CHA damage."
No. You chose to tank a stat. If I put in an encounter where CHA damage is a possibility, I am not going to give you an exemption. I won't single you out, but don't expect special treatment because you made a choice to put resources elsewhere.
ty guys for your comments. this was the first pc death in a campaign that has been running for over a year.Sounds like your game is too Player Character friendly if anything. It was about time someone died. As a player, I want my games to be dangerous and full of death. Winning each combat should feel like a real victory and not just a boring march towards the PCs inevitable triumph (which has been a real problem in a lot of the games I've played in).
Especially once money/access to Raise Dead becomes available, if PCs aren't dying regularly then something is wrong with the difficulty level of their opponents.
Keep killing them PCs!
lol, I don't want to kill the pcs...I'm routing for them. They have had a few scary encounters, but overall they have been coasting. big group, generous point buy, magic items up the wazzooo. the pc who died told me an hour ago that maybe this would wake the rest of the party up....no pun intended
I would give the falling PC a chance to "hang on" to the villain- as in the villain must escape the grapple to drop him. There is a save of some sort to avoid going over a ledge during bull rush, or something...right?
On the other hand, why was a PC sleeping 5 feet from a 500 foot drop?
I just have to say that, as a GM and as a Player, I have no issue with the scenario that the OP outlined. He said that the group had some rounds to wake up their friend before the BBEG knocked him off the cliff. He had a save to avoid deep slumber, the GM let him get a check to avoid being knocked off the cliff even though the player shouldn't have gotten one.
Fair is fair.
This sort of thing happens in a lot of games. There are all sorts of resources that a group can spend or invest into avoiding certain situations, and the groups that don't end up getting upset when those situations arise.
I had a blow up when casting Feeblemind on both of a group's casters. They both got saves, they were both high enough to have taken Mind Blank or Spell Turning. The Oracle could even have taken Greater Spell Immunity (which is such a great spell). They got hit in separate rounds, so the Oracle could have cast Heal on the Wizard to negate the effect, but at a certain point, what do I do as a GM? Do I just baby them through? They were level 16... its a 5th level spell. They knew to expect all manner of mind-effecting magic from these enemies.
They chose not to prepare themselves, they chose not to spend resources on important defensive abilities, they chose not to take helpful consumables, they failed their saves. How is that the GM's fault? Take the hit, finish or run from the encounter, then pay the exorbitant fee that it is going to cost you to un-feeblemind the Oracle back in town so he can un-feeblemind the Wizard. Hopefully you learned a lesson.
"Oh well its the GM's job to make things fun so lets never hit the player that tanked their CHA with CHA damage."
No. You chose to tank a stat. If I put in an encounter where CHA damage is a possibility, I am not going to give you an exemption. I won't single you out, but don't expect special treatment because you made a choice to put resources elsewhere.
lord, I agree
nobody is saying that we as gms single out anybody. When I was younger I had "bolt from the blue" strike fellow players who had upset the gm. Don't get me going about the "20 rolls" behing the screen. this group I play with is gonna look a little different next week...sigh
On the other hand, why was a PC sleeping 5 feet from a 500 foot drop?
Because of the deep slumber spell the PC failed to save against.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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last fight at end of Rise of the Runelord (skinsaw murders)Last night a sleeping/helpless pc was dragged 5 ft from a 160 foot ledge.
do you think RAW rules were done wrong?
Your ruling is fine.
If they are asleep, then it takes "Slapping or wounding" to wake usually.
"A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy"
If you are at my mercy, I can gently lift you and drop you off a edge. You don't get slapped or take damage until you reach the end of the 160 ft drop and take 16d6 damage.
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By the way, please don't do spoilers like that. I'm playing in RotRL and in book two near the end. Now I know to be cautious and I didn't go looking for spoilers. But I'm spoiled non the less.
This is awesome! It would be a badge of honor to die in such an amazing way!
Time to break out the Story Feats; I can think of a couple (Deny the Reaper or Vengeance for the group, or Arisen for the fighter who died).
The game should be about playing in a great story. Sometimes (often) it's the Big Damn Heroes kicking butt, but it can just as easily be spectacular failures.
I think that considering it was ad hoc (the AP lists a different, if not cheaper, method of insta-death), it was amazingly cinematic and well done.
Glad to hear that most of your group appreciated it. :)
damage rolled.....front line fighter only had 30 hitpoint (crazy, I know) fall damage well over neg con.....felt bad but that's what they were warned aboutThe character would fall the full 150 feet in one round. Fall speed is 500 feet for the first round, and 1200 feet every round thereafter. So at best they'd have one round to act - and probably not that, since it most likely was a surprise round.
The only thing that I might ask is this: Did you roll damage for the fall?
Falling only deals 1d6 damage per 10 feet fallen. The character can make a DC 15 Acrobatics check to ignore damage for the first 10 feet, and convert the second 10 feet to nonlethal damage. That would possibly be 1d6 nonlethal damage and 13d6 lethal - with the (slim) possibility that the character only took 13 damage (if you rolled really, really bad).
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait !!! A front line fighter with 30 HP at level 7 ????
I think there must be something wrong here. A fighter should have 43 HP average before accounting for CON, favorite class bonus and feat/magic items.
Even with 10 CON, no favorite bonus to HP, no toughness or anything, it means he have rolled 3.3 in average with its hit dice (10 + 3.3*6 = 30).
So, a 7th level fighter with 14 CON + belt + favorite have 71 HP average, and dies at -16 (and that's not the max you could have, by far).
When you fall from 150 feet, you take 10 to 90 damage, average 52.
It means the fall has a very low chance of killing him (something like 1%, when using statistics), and a very good chance of not even knocking him out.
With a successful acrobatic check, the fall have no chance of killing him. Full stop.
What's the difference between getting Bullrushed (or dragged, grappled, etc.) off a cliff or being hit with a save-or-die, really? They're both just a single roll, life or death. Heck, what's the difference between those an getting crit (or just hit) for lethal damage?
It's a dangerous world and sometimes PCs die. What makes one death OK and another not? What makes getting axed in the face "herioc" and getting thrown off a cliff not?
Anyway, if you want a less lethal game where PCs can sometimes cheat death, Hero Points are pretty much made for exactly that. In this example, couldn't the player use a hero point to either survive the fall or grab onto the cliff or something?
Or maybe play Toon, where falling (and everything else) is non-lethal?
lord, I agreenobody is saying that we as gms single out anybody. When I was younger I had "bolt from the blue" strike fellow players who had upset the gm. Don't get me going about the "20 rolls" behing the screen. this group I play with is gonna look a little different next week...sigh
I have had those experiences.... stray lightning bolts and falling rocks. I have had a GM roll that "natural" 20 without looking at the die when a save-or-suck spell is cast on a BBEG.
I think that a different group would be a good thing. The group I run with now as a player has been together for some 15 years, and we absolutely love the peril. A little death once in a while (as long as it is legit) can keep the tension of the game up. Coming very close to death is also very refreshing. Our 4 man group ran through the entirety of Scarwall without leaving or resting. About half-way through our GM was openly reminding us that we could always leave and get some resources back. We finished that place completely with no spells, no potions, no scrolls, no hitpoints left. But for us, that is the fun. We never want a challenge to be trivialized. (And this was with a gnome paladin, a gunslinger, a rogue with a bard companion, and a conjurer)
A few weeks ago we started Carrion Crown with a different GM and we have already had to talk to him about not pulling punches. That AP is rough... we knew that going in, and there were a few cases where we knew that a monster would still have HP, but conveniently died because we were struggling.
The threat of death is important. As long as the PCs have the ability to react, to make saves, to prevent the death... everything is cool. Using greater invisibility to sneak up on a sleeping player in the middle of the night in his room at the inn with a level 20 assassin so you can Coup De Grace him... well that is pretty mean. Killing a PC in an encounter with spells and maneuvers? Totally kosher.
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damage rolled.....front line fighter only had 30 hitpoint (crazy, I know) fall damage well over neg con.....felt bad but that's what they were warned aboutThe character would fall the full 150 feet in one round. Fall speed is 500 feet for the first round, and 1200 feet every round thereafter. So at best they'd have one round to act - and probably not that, since it most likely was a surprise round.
The only thing that I might ask is this: Did you roll damage for the fall?
Falling only deals 1d6 damage per 10 feet fallen. The character can make a DC 15 Acrobatics check to ignore damage for the first 10 feet, and convert the second 10 feet to nonlethal damage. That would possibly be 1d6 nonlethal damage and 13d6 lethal - with the (slim) possibility that the character only took 13 damage (if you rolled really, really bad).
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait !!! A front line fighter with 30 HP at level 7 ????
I think there must be something wrong here. A fighter should have 43 HP average before accounting for CON, favorite class bonus and feat/magic items.
Even with 10 CON, no favorite bonus to HP, no toughness or anything, it means he have rolled 3.3 in average with its hit dice (10 + 3.3*6 = 30).
** spoiler omitted **
So, a 7th level fighter with 14 CON + belt + favorite have 71 HP average, and dies at -16 (and that's not the max you could have, by far).
When you fall from 150 feet, you take 10 to 90 damage, average 52.
It means the fall has a very low chance of killing him (something like 1%, when using statistics), and a very good chance of not even knocking him out.With a successful acrobatic check, the fall have no chance of killing him. Full stop.
I don't know 100%, but he could have very well been saying that the fighter had 30 hp *left*. Not total. They did have a fight before he fell asleep, after all.
damage rolled.....front line fighter only had 30 hitpoint (crazy, I know) fall damage well over neg con.....felt bad but that's what they were warned aboutThe character would fall the full 150 feet in one round. Fall speed is 500 feet for the first round, and 1200 feet every round thereafter. So at best they'd have one round to act - and probably not that, since it most likely was a surprise round.
The only thing that I might ask is this: Did you roll damage for the fall?
Falling only deals 1d6 damage per 10 feet fallen. The character can make a DC 15 Acrobatics check to ignore damage for the first 10 feet, and convert the second 10 feet to nonlethal damage. That would possibly be 1d6 nonlethal damage and 13d6 lethal - with the (slim) possibility that the character only took 13 damage (if you rolled really, really bad).
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait !!! A front line fighter with 30 HP at level 7 ????
I think there must be something wrong here. A fighter should have 43 HP average before accounting for CON, favorite class bonus and feat/magic items.
Even with 10 CON, no favorite bonus to HP, no toughness or anything, it means he have rolled 3.3 in average with its hit dice (10 + 3.3*6 = 30).
** spoiler omitted **
So, a 7th level fighter with 14 CON + belt + favorite have 71 HP average, and dies at -16 (and that's not the max you could have, by far).
When you fall from 150 feet, you take 10 to 90 damage, average 52.
It means the fall has a very low chance of killing him (something like 1%, when using statistics), and a very good chance of not even knocking him out.With a successful acrobatic check, the fall have no chance of killing him. Full stop.
he had 30 hit points because he was damaged before and during the encounter...did not receive healing fell from 160 feet.....
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Looks legit. And epic. I'd love to have a character die that way, especially if I awoke just in time to die.
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To say that the bad guy fell 500 feet before the next PC could act is pretty silly (in my humble opinion) because the NPC CAN'T move 500 ft in his turn and I believe the rules state if someone jumps, they have to be able to complete the jump before the end of movement or the jump...
There was no jumping involved. I can't say what I think of this logic without violating every possible board rule, but I will say that the logic is about as valid as saying that you can't eat gingerbread crackers because they sometimes come in the shape of gingerbread men, and that would be like cannibalism.
To bring this back to a frame that is at least passingly realistic, this argument is like saying that I can't skydive because I personally can only jump about 4 feet. That means of course I can't skydive, because I can't fall faster than 4 feet in 6 seconds.
I hope everyone see's how ridiculous this argument is?
This all smells very fishy to me...
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Question
Since the sleeping PC was...well...asleep, do you even have to make a combat maneuver against him? Provided his character's total weight was under the weight the BBEG could move around, would the BBEG then not, under the rules, have been able to just toss the PC off the cliff like a sack of potatoes?
-Nearyn
...I believe the rules state if someone jumps, they have to be able to complete the jump before the end of movement...
I'm not aware of anywhere in the rules actually stating this, and would be interested in a reference to it if someone has one.
What they do state is that a character cannot jump farther than their movement speed - which I have seen some say implies they must start and finish their jump during their turn (which I disagree with).
All that aside, free falling is a very different thing than jumping.
Guys, guys. The official tactics for this encounter call for the BBEG to use a magic item to cast flesh to stone on a character, and then shove the resulting statue off the side of the building. That's what the GM's instructions are. Using deep slumber instead is different, but arguably similar enough not to matter much. This wasn't some "Muahahaha! I'll destroy them all!" type of thing.the medusa mask was going to be first option. She was swarmed by 6pcs and 3 npc and went with deep slumber which also provoked aoo. grappling the sleeping character did not provoke from the sleeping pc, but I allowed 3 more attacks of opp from the adgacent pcs. then off they went, rnd 3 after the slumber spell also giving 3 more attacks of opp (12 TOTAL!!!!!!)while she tumbled. other posts have said I should of just threw him off (after his cmb/cmd save) and continue fighting, maybe turning another pc into stone or fighting to the death. I felt that after all her minions are dead and she is outnumbered 9-1 and the lair/ tower is starting to fall it would be time to live to fight another day...
Wow, that's a lot of combatants... In any case, I was just trying to help clear up that your use of tactics was not only sound, but within the spirit of the published tactics (almost exactly the same thing, really), because some people seemed to think, earlier in the thread, you were playing brutally against the PCs.
Edit: And oh, dear readers, I sincerely hope I didn't spoil anything major... I'm usually pretty careful about this kind of thing. In any case, the tactics involve more than just the statue thing. If you're playing this AP and you now decide to prepare feather fall, don't think that makes you safe. A soft descent from a building is still you out of the fight for a while, which is still good for the baddy!
To say that the bad guy fell 500 feet before the next PC could act is pretty silly (in my humble opinion)
Other issues aside, in the actual scenario as presented by the DM, the fall was 150 ft, not 500 ft.
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By RAW, you're absolutely correct. But it was kind of a dick move though. Just because the rules allow a tactic doesn't mandate that you have to use it. There are tons of legal ways to kill PC's off without giving them a chance to effectively strike back. But you really should hesitate before using them. Most players can tolerate a PC death if they at least had the opportunity to go down fighting.
do you think RAW rules were done wrong?
This is key - Bran, ask your players (the whole group) if this is what they felt about the situation, rather than actually having a problem with the rules. Any rule discussion is moot if they prefer softcore over hardcore play. Stay open minded - if that's what they want, give it to them.
To say that the bad guy fell 500 feet before the next PC could act is pretty silly (in my humble opinion)Other issues aside, in the actual scenario as presented by the DM, the fall was 150 ft, not 500 ft.
And the OP said 150 ft.
The 500 ft is the 'how far do you fall in one round'. That means it took less than a round for the PC to fall 150 ft. About 2.5 seconds.