Goblinworks Executive Founder
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...The Seventh Veil will gladly take all of the pure Crafters even if they steadfastly refuse to ever participate in PvP.One direct benefit: extra trade income from the Crafter's efforts, which might be used to hire mercenary companies.Thats kinda what I meant about being renters. You either pay for the territory and let the owner do the work, or you hire someone else to defend your territory. Either way you pay for it.
Then we end up full circle, right back where Ryan stated that crafting has minimal profits because they have to pay someone else to do the work (PVP) for them or they craft in low end but safe areas.
Are you saying that the crafters who work for large nullsec corporations make a lot of profit? There's minimal ISK to be made in eve commerce because there's a fairly low barrier to entry and not much that anyone can do to differentiate their products from anyone else's.
I expect for the richest crafters to be paid in things other than pure coin, at exchange rates far better than market price, by the richest PvE and PvP players, who are themselves paid in kind. The harvester who is repaid for his work with gear, training, and recognition is much happier than one who is given only coin, with which he must purchase his own gear and training (often from the very people who buy his raw materials). Likewise a PvE player who contributes to a bank of the items used to learn expendable skills can expect to learn more skills than one who buys and sells at an auction house.
The main reason to exalt PvP players is that players who focus on PvP tend to be the kind of person for whom exaltation is a terminal goal. (because that kind of person tends toward the PvP styles of play). Part of my goal in PFO is to make the small group of players who like PvP but aren't reminiscent of the Call of Warfare crowd a dominant faction within a small niche.
Goblin Squad Member
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Coming from an Eve null sec alliance background I understand what Xeen is talking about and agree with him that it certainly is the case in Eve.
I am less convinced in some respects that it will be the same in PfO.
Why do I say this?
Eve could rely on high sec industrialists to supply the majority of their needs. A lot of null sec alliances indeed had no industrialists in null sec whatsoever nor did they really tend to make any provision for them.
PfO the vast amount of all production will likely be done in player settlements. Settlements will have to provide both training facilities and crafting facilities or rely on being able to buy from other settlements during wartime. Not a situation most settlements will want to be in.
However one thing I and Xeen do agree on is that all players should help defend their settlement. Where we differ is that has to be by holding a blade or throwing spells. Goblin works could easily do something imaginative and make crafting a vital part of defense. Instead of having to use their meagre combat skills crafters for example could be reinforcing walls, repairing buildings etc. Performing in Eve terms the equivalent of being shield or armour reppers for the settlement defenses. I as a pvp orientated person would see that as doing their bit.
PVE'ers unfortunately I can't come up with anything useful for them PVE wise so they will either need to use crafting skills or get their hands dirty I guess
PVE'ers have the skills to PVP, they just need to step up and do it. All you need to PVP you will already have by PVEing. Bring your weapons and armor, and then just follow the orders of the Combat Master. (HA coined the term for the equivalent to a Fleet Commander)
I agree completely with Crafters being the equivalent as Logistics pilots in Eve. A good logistics pilot is invaluable to a fight. That will be covered in part by Clerics, but there is no reason it could not be expanded for PFO.
The thing to consider with all that... You will be involved in PVP, no matter your profession.
The people who were considered 2nd class citizens in Eve would not get involved in PVP whether it was in defense or to conquer. PVE'ers and Crafters who are involved in PVP will not be considered 2nd class in the least bit, they are the PVPers.
PVPers will be out running PVE escalations and crafting in their spare time. There is no question in that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PVE =/= non-combatant
Don't forget that you need people to deal with escalations (ie. PVE content) to prevent them from harming your settlement. Admittedly it's easy to take people who like PVP combat to go deal with this as a large portion of their skill training will still be applicable. You may need special weapons on standby (eg. ones with the Silver keyword) to deal with certain NPCs effectively, but that's another matter ... and that's assuming that such weapons don't require special training which PVP'ers aren't likely to care about.
However, there are people who want to deal with such Escalations and avoid pvp combat altogether. (I'm not saying I'm one of those people, just that they exist.) Having a few of them around on a permanent basis so that Escalations never threaten your settlement - and even bring in the occasional artifact to boost your settlement DIs from defeating all the Escalations in the area and not just the immediate threats - can be very valuable to the settlement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Are you saying that the crafters who work for large nullsec corporations make a lot of profit? There's minimal ISK to be made in eve commerce because there's a fairly low barrier to entry and not much that anyone can do to differentiate their products from anyone else's.
Yes, and allow me to explain.
Null sec sov space is the only place you can build Super Capitals, such as Super Carriers and Titans. There are huge profits if you build these correctly.
Null Sec Sov space has the high end moons that can be mined to manufacture Tech 2 equipment and ships. If you build them from Sov space there are huge profits in it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess Xeen beat me to some of what I was trying to say. Just want to add that even though PVPers can help with escalations, they might be poorly suited to some (see the keywords issue above) and they may grow bored of escalations quickly. Fighting the same AI repeatedly gets a little repetitive compared to fighting a thinking opponent. Having people who actually enjoy the escalations can help your pvp'ers not burn out on boredom.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Are you saying that the crafters who work for large nullsec corporations make a lot of profit? There's minimal ISK to be made in eve commerce because there's a fairly low barrier to entry and not much that anyone can do to differentiate their products from anyone else's.
Yes, and allow me to explain.
Null sec sov space is the only place you can build Super Capitals, such as Super Carriers and Titans. There are huge profits if you build these correctly.
Null Sec Sov space has the high end moons that can be mined to manufacture Tech 2 equipment and ships. If you build them from Sov space there are huge profits in it.
Really? Super caps and Titans can be converted to ISK? And nullsec corps let members mine, manufacture, and sell without giving the corp most of the ISK?
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CEO, Goblinworks
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I think that the thing that surprises PvE players the most is when they're told what to do, not when they're told they have to fight.
If the group needs X, you better be making X, or the group will kick you out. This loss of agency turns these characters into "jobs" with "bosses". If the player is OK with the job and having a boss, they tend to stick around and be a contributing member of the team. But if they take the attitude that they should be free to do whatever the hell they want and that nobody can tell them what to do ... they're often shocked to be shown the door.
Nobody needs an untrained inexperienced character in a tough fight. But they may need a specific kind of gear, or specific repair materials, or specific consumables at specific times and places, and if the PvE contingent isn't delivering, the war will be lost.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will always be PvP. The question is if it will be a steady enough source of income to keep you geared, fed, and stocked with consumables without other revenue sources. I'm sure everyone is thumping their own chests and saying "I can, because I'm a bandit/mercenary/bounty hunter!"
For almost everyone, the answer will be no. Expect to put in some PVE/Gathering/Crafting if you want to PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that the thing that surprises PvE players the most is when they're told what to do, not when they're told they have to fight.
If the group needs X, you better be making X, or the group will kick you out. This loss of agency turns these characters into "jobs" with "bosses". If the player is OK with the job and having a boss, they tend to stick around and be a contributing member of the team. But if they take the attitude that they should be free to do whatever the hell they want and that nobody can tell them what to do ... they're often shocked to be shown the door.
Nobody needs an untrained inexperienced character in a tough fight. But they may need a specific kind of gear, or specific repair materials, or specific consumables at specific times and places, and if the PvE contingent isn't delivering, the war will be lost.
This implicates that you're building a system that takes into account the number of settlement/company members and if you're not delivering your wasting precious resources. Is there no room for "I do what I want, but as long as I'm not hurting my settlement with those actions, they accept me" or are those kinds of settlements just prey for the more organized ones?
@Aeioun
As I said before there will be a range of options from settlements that are almost totally laissez faire to settlements that treat you almost as an employee and tell you what to do and when to do it.
Settlements can only demand what their membership will put up with the simple answer is if people do not tolerate those settlements that are too demanding they will soon wither.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think that the thing that surprises PvE players the most is when they're told what to do, not when they're told they have to fight.
If the group needs X, you better be making X, or the group will kick you out. This loss of agency turns these characters into "jobs" with "bosses". If the player is OK with the job and having a boss, they tend to stick around and be a contributing member of the team. But if they take the attitude that they should be free to do whatever the hell they want and that nobody can tell them what to do ... they're often shocked to be shown the door.
Nobody needs an untrained inexperienced character in a tough fight. But they may need a specific kind of gear, or specific repair materials, or specific consumables at specific times and places, and if the PvE contingent isn't delivering, the war will be lost.
Once the game starts feeling like a "job" with "bosses" then it will be time for me to find a new settlement. They won't have to boot me. And if I can't find a settlement that isn't like that. Then, sorry, the game is no longer a "game' for me and I'll cancel my subscription.
Now, I'll contribute to my settlement with both my Main and DT, but I won't be told I have to make "X" or be booted.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Really? Super caps and Titans can be converted to ISK? And nullsec corps let members mine, manufacture, and sell without giving the corp most of the ISK?
Are you saying that the crafters who work for large nullsec corporations make a lot of profit? There's minimal ISK to be made in eve commerce because there's a fairly low barrier to entry and not much that anyone can do to differentiate their products from anyone else's.
Yes, and allow me to explain.
Null sec sov space is the only place you can build Super Capitals, such as Super Carriers and Titans. There are huge profits if you build these correctly.
Null Sec Sov space has the high end moons that can be mined to manufacture Tech 2 equipment and ships. If you build them from Sov space there are huge profits in it.
Yes, Super Caps can be converted to ISK.
As for keeping the profits, that would be done on a corp by corp basis.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will always be PvP. The question is if it will be a steady enough source of income to keep you geared, fed, and stocked with consumables without other revenue sources. I'm sure everyone is thumping their own chests and saying "I can, because I'm a bandit/mercenary/bounty hunter!"
For almost everyone, the answer will be no. Expect to put in some PVE/Gathering/Crafting if you want to PvP.
PVP focused characters:
1. May be able to sustain their habit through predation, as you say.
2. Will rely on their settlement to supply them with their needs *
3. May have a Destiny's Twin to work the gathering / crafting side
4. May have additional accounts (alts w/ paid training)
* A settlement that supplies a PVP'er with his or her needs will likely repay the settlement with PVP that it needs.
Overall I'm not disagreeing with you, just providing avenues of how PVP'ers can get the support they need.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would hope it will be more like PvP is the focus of the game, or tip of the spear, but support is critical as well, just, you know, support. It's not directly comparable, but I would be ok if it was something like in the Marine Corps, where combat arms is the cultural center and focus, but at the same time, everyone knows you aren't getting very far if all you have is grunts with an MRE in their cargo pockets, a camelback, and three mags. Competent support people who pull their share of the load--it's just a different share than direct engagement--get a lot of respect.
I would guess that tensions between those who directly engage in combat, and those who provide logistical support/industrial support, will be a reflection of the culture and quality leadership of a settlement.
BTW it is hilarious to hear everyone giving these "OMG in our settlement we plan to give kisses and backrubs to all crafters!" pitches :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would hope it will be more like PvP is the focus of the game, or tip of the spear, but support is critical as well, just, you know, support. It's not directly comparable, but I would be ok if it was something like in the Marine Corps, where combat arms is the cultural center and focus, but at the same time, everyone knows you aren't getting very far if all you have is grunts with an MRE in their cargo pockets, a camelback, and three mags. Competent support people who pull their share of the load--it's just a different share than direct engagement--get a lot of respect.
I would guess that tensions between those who directly engage in combat, and those who provide logistical support/industrial support, will be a reflection of the culture and quality leadership of a settlement.
BTW it is hilarious to hear everyone giving these "OMG in our settlement we plan to give kisses and backrubs to all crafters!" pitches :)
I lol'd
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Goblin Squad Member
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Once the game starts feeling like a "job" with "bosses" then it will be time for me to find a new settlement. They won't have to boot me. And if I can't find a settlement that isn't like that. Then, sorry, the game is no longer a "game' for me and I'll cancel my subscription.
Good thing you're in The Seventh Veil :)
BTW it is hilarious to hear everyone giving these "OMG in our settlement we plan to give kisses and backrubs to all crafters!" pitches :)
I'm not sure how to take that. There were a number of folks saying that anyone who didn't contribute in PvP - actual combat PvP - wouldn't be welcome in their Settlement. That seemed like a good opportunity to differentiate ourselves.
The Seventh Veil won't turn away members just because they're not comfortable participating in PvP. We'd rather have their positive contributions elsewhere than having none of their contributions at all. And we recognize that a lot of folks who aren't comfortable with PvP are going to be trying this game, and a lot of them will end up enjoying it later as long as they're not treated like idiots/weaklings/cowards when they first get introduced to the community.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"OMG in our settlement we plan to give kisses and backrubs to all crafters!" pitches :)
show us the money (and some respect), and offer the /kisses and /backrubs to RP-ers.
Crafters are generally capitalists (or communists in some guilds), while PvP'ers often want to impose good old feudalism.
(mbando, I was tempted to say the haft will beat the spearhead any time, but you'd probably beat me without any weapon...)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Once the game starts feeling like a "job" with "bosses" then it will be time for me to find a new settlement. They won't have to boot me. And if I can't find a settlement that isn't like that. Then, sorry, the game is no longer a "game' for me and I'll cancel my subscription.Good thing you're in The Seventh Veil :)
BTW it is hilarious to hear everyone giving these "OMG in our settlement we plan to give kisses and backrubs to all crafters!" pitches :)I'm not sure how to take that. There were a number of folks saying that anyone who didn't contribute in PvP - actual combat PvP - wouldn't be welcome in their Settlement. That seemed like a good opportunity to differentiate ourselves.
The Seventh Veil won't turn away members just because they're not comfortable participating in PvP. We'd rather have their positive contributions elsewhere than having none of their contributions at all. And we recognize that a lot of folks who aren't comfortable with PvP are going to be trying this game, and a lot of them will end up enjoying it later as long as they're not treated like idiots/weaklings/cowards when they first get introduced to the community.
At the very least all settlement capable orgs have stated an intent to not second class non pvp citizens. That somewhat makes the differentiation mute.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There were a number of folks saying that anyone who didn't contribute in PvP - actual combat PvP - wouldn't be welcome in their Settlement. That seemed like a good opportunity to differentiate ourselves.
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I don't recall anyone actually saying they would not be welcomed. What I had argued was that when your settlement is under siege, a possibly on the brink of falling, that crafting skill of 300 is of little use at that time.
I have frequently recommended that all characters of a Settlement should have the minimum of "basic" survival and combat skills. Even if their contribution is nothing more than delaying a rush through the gates by invaders, by a combat round or two, it still gives more time for your pvpers to take action.
If raiders are burning down your home, you shouldn't be taking pies out of the oven, or finishing up that last horse shoe to fill an order.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have frequently recommended that all characters of a Settlement should have the minimum of "basic" survival and combat skills. Even if their contribution is nothing more than delaying a rush through the gates by invaders, by a combat round or two, it still gives more time for your pvpers to take action.
I think that could make sense. We'll have to see how things actually shake out, to see if that's tenable, but I can see how this might give a settlement a marginal advantage in extremis.
Kind of "Every Marine a Rifleman."
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Goblin Squad Member
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There were a number of folks saying that anyone who didn't contribute in PvP - actual combat PvP - wouldn't be welcome in their Settlement. That seemed like a good opportunity to differentiate ourselves.I don't recall anyone actually saying they would not be welcomed.
Looking back it was just Xeen.
Xeen said: "Fight or get the boot."
Xeen said: "If you are not willing to help defend the settlement, then what respect and dignity do you deserve? I would say none."
My apologies for allowing what Xeen said to color my perception of the groups with which he's associated. I understand it's a common human failing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There were a number of folks saying that anyone who didn't contribute in PvP - actual combat PvP - wouldn't be welcome in their Settlement. That seemed like a good opportunity to differentiate ourselves.I don't recall anyone actually saying they would not be welcomed.Looking back it was just Xeen.
Xeen said: "Fight or get the boot."
Xeen said: "If you are not willing to help defend the settlement, then what respect and dignity do you deserve? I would say none."
My apologies for allowing what Xeen said to color my perception of the groups with which he's associated. I understand it's a common human failing.
Stating an expectation of mutual defense is not necessarily stating an intent of second classing citizens. It is in reality an expectation of necessity based on past sandbox games and Ryan's posts.
Additionally, UNC is a pvp centric chartered company sponsored by the settlement of Callambea. They are not the administrators of settlement policy.
I expect that Xeen is likely right, crafters and pvers will need to train and utilize minimal defense skills. I don't find his train of thought extraordinary, just rational.
That said, all of us have been in agreement that second classing is something we don't wish to conduct.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My crafter/merchant is going to be almost useless in direct fights. How much will be seen on how the mechanics of the game rolls out.
However, I can see my DT pulling out his stockpile of longswords to give out to defenders of the settlement to replace their weapons that were broken during the war or such. Free of charge. He will write it off as a necessary expenditure.
Edit: Then log onto my Main who will be much more useful in a fight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There were a number of folks saying that anyone who didn't contribute in PvP - actual combat PvP - wouldn't be welcome in their Settlement. That seemed like a good opportunity to differentiate ourselves.I don't recall anyone actually saying they would not be welcomed.Looking back it was just Xeen.
Xeen said: "Fight or get the boot."
Xeen said: "If you are not willing to help defend the settlement, then what respect and dignity do you deserve? I would say none."
My apologies for allowing what Xeen said to color my perception of the groups with which he's associated. I understand it's a common human failing.
I stand by what I said. Players that want to be a part of a settlement, but do not want to participate in expanding it or defending it, do not deserve the benefits.
The thing is Nihimon, you not only colored the perception but also took things out of context.
If crafters can participate in combat without picking up a sword then great. PVE'ers on the other hand are equipped for combat, and if PVE is their profession then they likely cannot take part in the crafting side of combat, so grab your sword.
So, if they can help with the war effort in their own way then good... but its not likely in the heat of things.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stating an expectation of mutual defense is not necessarily stating an intent of second classing citizens.
If you are not willing to help defend the settlement, then what respect and dignity do you deserve? .
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At the very least all settlement capable orgs have stated an intent to not second class non pvp citizens. That somewhat makes the differentiation mute.
I expect that Xeen is likely right, crafters and pvers will need to train and utilize minimal defense skills.
And that's why I wanted to point out where The Seventh Veil differs on that subject. That differentiation seems very, very far from moot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The thing is Nihimon, you not only colored the perception but also took things out of context.
I trust the community to determine the truth or falseness of that statement.
The Seventh Veil's policy applies to Crafters, PvEers, RPers, and everyone else. We want your positive contributions in whatever form you're comfortable contributing. If you don't contribute elsewhere, we're no worse off there than if you weren't a member of our community.
Two things would have to be true in order for us to consider a change to this policy, and that seems exceedingly unlikely:
1. A requirement that a Settlement can only be defended by members of that Settlement;
2. A system-imposed limit on the number of characters that can be members of a Settlement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"Defense" covers a lot of territory.
When I applied to Pax (a two-week question-and-answer, getting-to-know-you process), one of the questions Krow asked me had to do with settlement defense. I'm a non-PvPer. I'm also planning Deianira as an enchantment/illusion sorceress/bard, and it's not likely she'll have a lot of direct-combat abilities - more crowd control and buffing, probably. So my response was along the lines of "I'm not goung to be any good at repelling invaders, so I'd start using illusions to help cover the wounded while we get them out of harm's way."
Pax must not have a problem with that, because not only did they accept my application, they promoted me the same day my application period was up - which is pretty far from "second class" status.
A bit of flexibility and creativity in how best to use various people, and various characters' skills, is probably more useful than blanket policies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stating an expectation of mutual defense is not necessarily stating an intent of second classing citizens.If you are not willing to help defend the settlement, then what respect and dignity do you deserve? .__________________________________________________________________
At the very least all settlement capable orgs have stated an intent to not second class non pvp citizens. That somewhat makes the differentiation mute.I expect that Xeen is likely right, crafters and pvers will need to train and utilize minimal defense skills.And that's why I wanted to point out where The Seventh Veil differs on that subject. That differentiation seems very, very far from moot.
The quoted portion from me was an expression of how I suspect settlement needs might need to be by mechanical necessity. To derive the conclusion you did I would have needed to say:
"I expect that Xeen is likely right, crafters and pvers will need to train and utilize minimal defense skills. With this expectation in mind Callambea is requiring all citizens to have minimal combat skills or be relegated to a lower priority member."
The original statement is theorycrafting. The mock statement is intent.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will not defend someone who does not participate in defending or expanding the settlement Im in. One of the things we did to prevent this... and I know no one will like it (I would do it again if I ran a settlement) Some of the PVP guys left alts behind in our high end PVE territory and destroyed any allies that were not participating. (with the exception of known alts who had their mains in fleet)
I'd be a tad concerned if members of the allied company I rely on for defense in times of war considered killing its own allies to punish them for not fighting on the front lines a legitimate tactic.
Expelling suspected spies, or un-affliated neutrals, to prepare for an invasion might be prudent, but purposely destroying allies just because their skills aren't suited for front line combat?
As Nihimon said, unless there is some artificial limit on the number of characters that can belong to a settlement, there doesn't seem to be any justification for this tactic other than spite.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To derive the conclusion you did...
What conclusion do you think I drew? I really didn't make any statements about Pax's policies.
You said you expect it's true that "crafters and pvers will need to train and utilize minimal defense skills". I said we don't have that expectation at The Seventh Veil.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will not defend someone who does not participate in defending or expanding the settlement Im in. One of the things we did to prevent this... and I know no one will like it (I would do it again if I ran a settlement) Some of the PVP guys left alts behind in our high end PVE territory and destroyed any allies that were not participating. (with the exception of known alts who had their mains in fleet)I'd be a tad concerned if members of the allied company I rely on for defense in times of war considered killing its own allies to punish them for not fighting on the front lines a legitimate tactic.
Expelling suspected spies, or un-affliated neutrals, to prepare for an invasion might be prudent, but purposely destroying allies just because their skills aren't suited for front line combat?
As Nihimon said, unless there is some artificial limit on the number of characters that can belong to a settlement, there doesn't seem to be any justification for this tactic other than spite.
Doing so would be grounds for termination of allied status. Thus our worry is nil.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah, but it is all an excellent opportunity for propaganda and advertising as well. ;)
I accept that a lot of what I write has the intent of attracting intelligent, kind, friendly people to consider joining The Seventh Veil. I expect that a lot of what others write is also meant to serve as propaganda/advertising as well, whether they admit it or not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To derive the conclusion you did...What conclusion do you think I drew? I really didn't make any statements about Pax's policies.
You said you expect it's true that "crafters and pvers will need to train and utilize minimal defense skills". I said we don't have that expectation at The Seventh Veil.
I disagree that this was your intent. If you purely differed on the expectation level we would be having a theorycrafting discussion, and not a recruitment one.
I would have actually enjoyed that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I disagree that this was your intent.
Okay, I disagree that your "expectations" won't color your policies. If you expect it to be true that non-pvpers will "need" to train and utilize minimal defense skills, then you'll expect them to do so when that need is realized.
The Seventh Veil "expects" it to be extremely unlikely that such a need could arise.
It should be self-evident that the exact same game mechanics might result in a realization of that "need" on your part, but not on ours.
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Goblin Squad Member
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disagree that this was your intent. If you purely differed on the expectation level we would be having a theorycrafting discussion, and not a recruitment one.
My expectation / hope is that when two settlements start a war, the optimal division of labor will be to have a significant percentage of your citizens focused on economy and crafting, rather than direct, front line combat.
To throw out some wild guess percentages, I expect that a settlement that sends 100% of its citizens out on to the field with at least "minimal combat skills" will be soundly beaten by a settlement that sends 30% of its citizens as an army on the field, keeps 30% of its citizens in its most protected "safe" areas crafting and gathering, and has 40% of its citizens flexible enough to switch between both roles as needed.
In this scenario, there is plenty of room in the settlement for a significant number of citizens that are not expected to ever engage the enemy in combat.
To further address the "second class citizen" issue, I would also expect that a settlement whose leaders and decision makers are among the 30% in the safe area, will have a more coherent and organized long term strategy than one whose leaders are front line combatants.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"if you do not help defend"...
When besieging a settlement, I expect most pvp'ers will be grateful if the crafters spend their time and resources making siege engines instead of prancing around the battlefield waving swords.
When the settlement is besieged, they should be equally grateful to the people who built the walls and watchtowers - and the people who helped finance them.
"300 crafting skill doesn't help when the house is burning", but it helps build stronger houses in the first place and high DI settlements will be harder to siege.
if 'crafters and pvers' refuse to contribute to economic growth and protection of the settlement, then it sounds like something seriously wrong with the settlement management.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I disagree that this was your intent.Okay, I disagree that your "expectations" won't color your policies. If you expect it to be true that non-pvpers will "need" to train and utilize minimal defense skills, then you'll expect them to do so when that need is realized.
The Seventh Veil "expects" it to be extremely unlikely that such a need could arise.
It should be self-evident that the exact same game mechanics might result in a realization of that "need" on your part, but not on ours.
Expectations can be altered by in game realizations, or clarity from developers on mechanical intent.
Additionally there are more ways to broach player versus player combat outside of "do it or leave"
For example, you can foster a sense of community and cooperation that might make pvp a more fun experience for a significant portion of your roster.
Forcing playstyles on members is fundamentally against our Pax Gaming Charter. Having my expectations affect a hard line rule in this regard would be directly followed by corrective measures.
It is impossible for my suspicions to effect policy without my removal from Pax leadership. The same could be said of any of our leaders.
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Goblin Squad Member
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disagree that this was your intent. If you purely differed on the expectation level we would be having a theorycrafting discussion, and not a recruitment one.
My expectation / hope is that when two settlements start a war, the optimal division of labor will be to have a significant percentage of your citizens focused on economy and crafting, rather than direct, front line combat.
To throw out some wild guess percentages, I expect that a settlement that sends 100% of its citizens out on to the field with at least "minimal combat skills" will be soundly beaten by a settlement that sends 30% of its citizens as an army on the field, keeps 30% of its citizens in its most protected "safe" areas crafting and gathering, and has 40% of its citizens flexible enough to switch between both roles as needed.
In this scenario, there is plenty of room in the settlement for a significant number of citizens that are not expected to ever engage the enemy in combat.
To further address the "second class citizen" issue, I would also expect that a settlement whose leaders and decision makers are among the 30% in the safe area, will have a more coherent and organized long term strategy than one whose leaders are front line combatants.
I could agree that this is likely if the majority of war preparations are not made during the ramp up for war. For example if crafters can reinforce structures mid battle than your scenario is fairly spot on.
Also great contribution, and good food for thought.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah, but it is all an excellent opportunity for propaganda and advertising as well. ;)I accept that a lot of what I write has the intent of attracting intelligent, kind, friendly people to consider joining The Seventh Veil. I expect that a lot of what others write is also meant to serve as propaganda/advertising as well, whether they admit it or not.
I agree and am not disparaging it. I think that it is an interesting issue that needed to be dragged into the light and discussed. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally, I am satisfied with the responses of those that actually plan to manage settlements and formulate the policies therein.
The attitudes of the rank and file are just opinions. As long as they are not jerks about their opinions, in-game, it will have little effect on me. If they are, and it does that is another problem. Until it happens, it is not really an issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is how I see the loss of settlement / company assets:
1. Loss of an outpost is meant to be common place. Cheap and easy to replace, PC defense of them would be poor allocation of human resources.
2. Loss of a POI, would be a bit more serious, especially for the controlling company. Losing several of these might start to raise some questions about the capabilities, capacity or dedication of those charged with protecting them or the amount of support the governing settlement is providing to its POIs.
3. When the epic event of losing a settlement takes place, there will be an accounting of everyone's actions and or contributions.
Absentee leadership will likely get sacked. Ineffective defenders will be bolstered, retrained, or replaced. Citizens will be homeless. Alliances and even companies may fracture.
This is why when Xeen or I say, when the potential fall of your settlement is at hand, all fight or all is lost. If that means your armor-smith has to to be a meat shield, so be it. If he is unwilling to do that..... Well I guess a settlement leader has the right to populate his settlement with whomever he or she wishes. You will be easier pickings for those who don't.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have to agree with Bludd here. I was thinking earlier about the different "importance levels" of PvP attacks on your settlements, i.e. outpost to POI to settlement siege, and as long as it doesn't become a "slippery slope" where crafters are expected to defend every POI or any assault on settlement holdings then I would agree that asking them to put a week or two into combat skills and pick up a sword is not too much to ask, especially when every sword hand can make the difference between keeping or losing a settlement. This also with the caveat that if crafters can actively assist the battle in better ways (repairing walls, etc), then they should simply do whatever supports the settlement best; I would expect that at least some of the crafters would have to take up arms, unless there are only a few online at the moment.
I personally think Gaskon's 30/30/40 split sounds like a strong idea, and hope we see a system like such in game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ineffective defenders will be bolstered, retrained, or replaced.
Just so we are on the same page. I'm agreeing with you that If an armor-smith fighting is the most effective use of the character at that point you are correct. I'm arguing that an armor-smith fighting is an Ineffective defender.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I should think that while the accrual of crafting skills is expending XP off topic (interpreted to 'wasted') by those whose focus is all about how big their PvP stands while they dream, those characters may be developing in other ways even if their training is all in pounding hot metal with a hand sledge. Because there should be gain in other ways for the character it could be that they will still be viable combatants en masse and maybe even in small groups. I doubt they will be as easily killed as a newb, I suspect that if a crafter and I start at the same time and acquire the same amount of xp then we might be more closely matched than it appears many are thinking.
I sincerely hope that if a crafter is caught in a siege and must man the walls his combat prowess will be much better than laughable.
If stamina is needed for smithying and a trainable crafting skill, it could be that fighters will want to also train a bit in smithying just for the buffed stamina pool. I think there are several ways the problem of second class crafting players could be addressed... except it seems like Mr. Dancy is dismissing them as unimportant. maybe that is only my faulty inference...
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Goblin Squad Member
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disagree that this was your intent. If you purely differed on the expectation level we would be having a theorycrafting discussion, and not a recruitment one.
My expectation / hope is that when two settlements start a war, the optimal division of labor will be to have a significant percentage of your citizens focused on economy and crafting, rather than direct, front line combat.
To throw out some wild guess percentages, I expect that a settlement that sends 100% of its citizens out on to the field with at least "minimal combat skills" will be soundly beaten by a settlement that sends 30% of its citizens as an army on the field, keeps 30% of its citizens in its most protected "safe" areas crafting and gathering, and has 40% of its citizens flexible enough to switch between both roles as needed.
In this scenario, there is plenty of room in the settlement for a significant number of citizens that are not expected to ever engage the enemy in combat.
To further address the "second class citizen" issue, I would also expect that a settlement whose leaders and decision makers are among the 30% in the safe area, will have a more coherent and organized long term strategy than one whose leaders are front line combatants.
First, great post. Love it.
I think you just pointed out where I really disagree with teh whole "second class citizen" stuff. I get what Xeen is saying, to a point, but those "second class citizens" are the one building the city, gathering the materials, making your gear, etc. So, even if you have 370% of the citizens sitting out from PVP, those 30% still had a hand in getting the other 70% prepared for battle.
Completely arbitray numbers, in my experience even the indies in teh alliances I've been a part of *at least* jumped in smaller ships to help where they could in EVE, if they needed. And all teh way back inteh days of SWG our crafters "suited up" and took to the field to repel folks trying to take down our forts or even if we just needed extra boots on teh ground while taking others forts.
Would that other 30-40% that's flexible be meatshields? Probably, lol, but defending (or attacking) with your guildmates (and friends) is fun, regardless of skill level in my opinion.
EDIT: typos and crap. Still other typos, but I stopped caring about my "teh"'s