Goblin Squad Member
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I think Lam was asking more about how much combat training you think a crafter should take, not about how much should be required by game mechanics (aside from his last sentence, wherein he suggests that crafters get some combat training as part of leveling crafting if I understand).
I think Lam was asking more about how much combat training you think a crafter should take, not about how much should be required by game mechanics (aside from his last sentence, wherein he suggests that crafters get some combat training as part of leveling crafting if I understand).
Oh, honestly, I don't think they need any... Focus is great for crafters, and it's important for a guild to have the best crafters. I'm all for a settlement having a bunch of non-combatant crafters I think they'd have an advantage over a settlement that forces its crafters to dilute themselves with combat skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have changed my mind on this issue. Crafters should not devote a single xp point into survival or combat skill.
When I'm invading their outpost and all of their guards are killed, I want to be able to kill a crafter by just staring at them. I want to score a critical hit on them by just yelling at them. My fart should do AOE damage that kills them Instantly and severs a thread and has them respawn in My Little Pony Online.
Stay weak my friends, stay weak by all means. You can craft a quality 300 coffin for yourself, just before a split your skull.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't chime in on PvP threads often, but I think the ongoing argument about crafters (or any non-PvP oriented settlement member) learning to do a smidgeon of combat skills has - like far too many topics on these forums - been stretched to extremes. If the training system is to mirror Eve's, then the earliest levels of training will take minutes, hours, or a day at most. Given that those serious about playing PFO are looking at years of game-time investment, I doubt minutes/hours/a day will be an irrecoverable loss to a crafter's training schedule.
As Jiminy points out, a few points in archery might allow a crafter to launch an arrow or two into a fight, possibly weakening an invader enough to help their settlement militia save the day. This is not about forcing anyone to to PvP on a regular basis, but rather, in the most dire circumstances, asking that every hand is on deck, even with the slightest of combat skills (which could also include healing the combatants). Now, if they allow crafters with the appropriate skills to repair walls that are being bombarded, toss buckets of water on burning houses, etc., then I would expect crafters to being doing those tasks so that skilled PvPers can attend to the battle.
However, there comes a time (hopefully not often) when the protection of your coveted crafting station comes down to using that smithy's hammer for bonking other things than pieces of metal. If you're not willing to have spent a few proactive skill points for these most dire circumstances, than I question your devotion to your settlement and whether you deserve the use of that smithy that others are risking so much to provide you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you're not willing to have spent a few proactive skill points for these most dire circumstances, than I question your devotion to your settlement and whether you deserve the use of that smithy that others are risking so much to provide you.
See this is the part I'm having a bit of a problem with. My role in other MMOs with a significant crafting component and a significant player economy has always been providing equipment to my comrades and construction of necessary facilities and other necessary maintenance work that comes at the cost of my personal progress and egoistic goals. Most of the time at no cost or at production cost at the highest. So imagining that the right thing to do for a player organisation is to judge my devotion by that fact that I choose to become slightly less ineffective in an activity that my role is already ineffective at and thereby making my past contributions defacto irrelevant is not something I ca agree with on any level.
Now I'm not sure that this is an implication you wanted to make, Hobs. As I do not have the wish of putting words into your mouth. But It seems to be the logical extrapolation of this reasoning.
Now, if they allow crafters with the appropriate skills to repair walls that are being bombarded, toss buckets of water on burning houses, etc., then I would expect crafters to being doing those tasks so that skilled PvPers can attend to the battle.
This is something I expect to be possible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you're not willing to have spent a few proactive skill points for these most dire circumstances, than I question your devotion to your settlement and whether you deserve the use of that smithy that others are risking so much to provide you.See this is the part I'm having a bit of a problem with. My role in other MMOs with a significant crafting component and a significant player economy has always been providing equipment to my comrades and construction of necessary facilities and other necessary maintenance work that comes at the cost of my personal progress and egoistic goals. Most of the time at no cost or at production cost at the highest. So imagining that the right thing to do for a player organisation is to judge my devotion by that fact that I choose to become slightly less ineffective in an activity that my role is already ineffective at and thereby making my past contributions defacto irrelevant is not something I ca agree with on any level.
Now I'm not sure that this is an implication you wanted to make, Hobs. As I do not have the wish of putting words into your mouth. But It seems to be the logical extrapolation of this reasoning.
Now, if they allow crafters with the appropriate skills to repair walls that are being bombarded, toss buckets of water on burning houses, etc., then I would expect crafters to being doing those tasks so that skilled PvPers can attend to the battle.This is something I expect to be possible.
It's all a question of degree. I misunderstood Bluddwolf's original premise because I didn't think he was talking about people who would be unwilling to give up a single bit of precious time given XP to develop a few rudimentary PvP skills, on the grounds that I couldn't believe that anyone would fall into that camp. I (mistakenly) believed he was advocating that all crafters should give up a significant (and that's an important word) part of their XP time to said skills. I still think any crafter who has to give up a significant amount of their training time - and at this point there is no way to actually put firm numbers on it, so for the sake of argument let's say 33% - then they will be less effective in defending the settlement than one who can craft better and bring in an economic benefit.
If, however, you are objecting to giving up a week, or even a month of training time in the life of a character that can be measured in years, when said month's training will make the difference between being totally useless and actually having some benefit when it's all hands on deck, then I believe you are being selfish. PvPers will be expected to gather and possibly even craft low quality items as well, when the need arises. I doubt we'll hear such vociferous objections from them when the time comes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's something to consider as well. We don't know what the "skill tree" is going to look like yet. What if "smithing III" requires STR 13 and you can't get to STR13 just by training smithing skills? Crafters may be required to take skills outside their narrow focus just to meet prerequisites for the skills they do want; if that's the case then this whole argument becomes (I hope) moot. And if it is true and you still don't take anything that might aid in the defence of your home, then I would definitely question your loyalty.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is it an assumption when the design described represents a flat power curve? That the difference between a veteran character and a new character is more in the breadth of trained skills than the depth of effective power?I'm not sure the power curve as described is all that flat. It's a lot flatter than the TT range of power between a Level 1 and Level 20 of any class, but isn't everything in comparison? PFO Tier 1 weapons do ~40 damage, Tier 2 do ~80, Tier 3 do ~120. Expect armor protection to ramp up in a similar fashion. But those advances in damage are available based on the users' skills. Without the skills to use the higher tier keywords, the character is effectively using a lower tier weapon.
So 4 veterans doing ~120 points, and 8 green characters doing ~40, and equivalent armors on all?
Fair enough, but it has been stated as a design goal for the power curve to be reasonably flat, or more flat than is commonly the rule in other MMO designs. Nobody is to be helpless unless they make themselves so. Your point can then be inferred to suggest that something will better the balance between one player who commits 10 skill points in combat arts with another player who commits 10 skill points in crafting arts.
Thinking about it, then it isn't completely preposterous that skilling up Hobs' fletching skills might also award him something, perhaps increased stamina or endurance if those are distinct, or even a rank in longbow. If he skilled up blacksmithing it might give him a keyword in crushing weaponry.
Something should help to give the committed craftsperson increased mechanical viability at least on defense. If he is skilled in anything then it isn't as if he were a complete newb.
@Hobbs: see what an exemplar you are?
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Goblin Squad Member
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And if it is true and you still don't take anything that might aid in the defence of your home, then I would definitely question your loyalty.
This is something I've mentioned over and over and over and over. I'm saying that I want to help the defense of my home as a crafter and not as a combatant. I think direct combat is not the only way to participate in the defense of my home. And I think that it's false to assume that if someone does not participate directly in combat they are not contributing to the defense of their home.
I have no idea how to express this in a clearer fashion.
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@Papaver
While I hope crafting is a valuable part of both settlement defense and offense what I think people like Lhan are referring to is the end point.
The walls have fallen, the enemy are in the street and driving towards the town hall for the settlement capture. Frankly no crafting helps at this point the only thing that can be done is throw bodies in the way and hope to wear them down before they complete capture. This is when people are saying that crafters should be willing to use that smithing hammer against flesh and blood.
Will crafters doing this make a difference and stop the settlement capture? Probably not but occasionally they will buy enough time for the settlement to rally its defenses and it is better to try than not. I don't think people are thinking crafters should be regularly in hand to hand combat and I hope they do mainly have crafter style roles but I do believe repairing swords isnt much use when the enemy are battering down the walls of the forge.
I fully expect as a merchant and crafter to pick up a weapon when all else fails as I know when it comes down to it that my craft skills are no use without a settlement to craft in, nor are my merchant skills of much use when the enemy is in possession of all my stock in trade.
I don't actually think this is a crafter or pve or gatherer or pvp issue to be honest. I think what people have to realise is that when the chips are down their settlement will only prosper if in times of need they are willing to do what helps the settlement best. Successful settlements will be those who have inhabitants that accept that truth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Will crafters doing this make a difference and stop the settlement capture? Probably not but occasionally they will buy enough time for the settlement to rally its defenses and it is better to try than not.
My biggest problem with the hole argument is that not trying in this scenario constitutes treason and discounts everything else done beforehand by the individual.
I do believe repairing swords isnt much use when the enemy are battering down the walls of the forge.
This is the point where we disagree.
PS: just because you have mentioned it. This is not a PvP vs. PvE discussion for me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think what people have to realise is that when the chips are down their settlement will only prosper if in times of need they are willing to do what helps the settlement best. Successful settlements will be those who have inhabitants that accept that truth.
This is a point we can partially agree on. I say partially because it's my fundamental believe that if someone blames the crafters for the combatants failure they are not doing what helps the settlement best.
Will crafters doing this make a difference and stop the settlement capture? Probably not but occasionally they will buy enough time for the settlement to rally its defenses and it is better to try than not.My biggest problem with the hole argument is that not trying in this scenario constitutes treason and discounts everything else done beforehand by the individual.
I do believe repairing swords isnt much use when the enemy are battering down the walls of the forge.This is the point where we disagree.
PS: just because you have mentioned it. This is not a PvP vs. PvE discussion for me.
I believe it has only been the viewpoint of one or two people that it constitutes treason. Certainly it is not a view I would take though I would hope that settlement managers would be wanting to know why (example incoming) a group was spending its time in a dungeon when we have an enemy at the city gate.
As to the repairing a sword isnt much use I think I am exactly right from what we know of the crafting system. To repair swords you will be queueing up the job and that job will take time to complete. When the enemy is a couple of minutes from capturing your town hall and taking control of your settlement I really have to say that queuing up jobs that are unlikely to be completed is not contributing anything to defense
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is not a PvP vs. PvE discussion for me.
My sense is that we shouldn't even be distinguishing those in this game: it is supposed to be whole. It will be PFO.
I understand that Ryan focuses heavily on the PvP element in his marketing but I think a large part of why is rooted in marketing. I believe it can be just as easily said that PFO will be an RPG.
When you consider that you cannot be serious about role play unless your character can choose to engage with another player's character in mortal combat where there is cause...even if that cause is the insanity of the other character, then it is clear that potential must be provided for.
This is to be a whole game. I believe the developers are focused strongly on PvP because it is the single most significant element they can develop that is also the most likely to go horribly wrong. I think they are absolutely correct in focusing on getting it right.
But I also do not believe the developers can focus on the RPG side of it, other than enabling it's possibility and iteratively furnishing this representation of Golarion with what will be needed to fully find expression of roleplay.
Only players can create role play. If the devs do their job well it will be possible to make that happen without being completely disrupted by those whose only interest is ruination.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My sense is that we shouldn't even be distinguishing those in this game: it is supposed to be whole. It will be PFO.
I absolutely agree. I'd even go so far as to say if we can get rid of classifying an action as PvP or PvE and move on to classifying it based on how meaningful or useful it is we would have a couple of problems less regarding how we interact with each other on the forums.
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(example incoming) a group was spending its time in a dungeon when we have an enemy at the city gate.This example is outside of any argument that i'm making.
It was an extreme example denoting those (whether pve,pvp,crafter or gatherer) that will not contribute to settlement defense in any way shape or form but instead go about doing what they wish to do as if the attack is not happening, there will be some that do this I can assure you.
The disagreement between us appears to me to be this
I say a player should be prepared and expected to do whatever it is best for them to do to aid their settlement in times of extreme need and that if the best thing for a crafter to do is pick up a weapon they should be prepared to do so.
You appear to be saying a player should be prepared and expected to do whatever it is best for them to do to aid their settlement in times of extreme need except for picking up a weapon even if that is the best thing they could currently do to help.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The walls have fallen, the enemy are in the street and driving towards the town hall for the settlement capture. Frankly no crafting helps at this point the only thing that can be done is throw bodies in the way and hope to wear them down before they complete capture.
I've not yet understood scenarios like this one. Pharasma recalls us all to life when we fall, but these examples seem to be written from the real-world "you have one life, use it well" point-of-view.
If the "bind point"--or whatever they end up being--is in the besieged city, then the defenders can take advantage of that, and presumably the attackers can't. We've learned, however, that severing a character's "bind point" connection will be part of play as well; it seems, to me, that a key part of any siege will be destroying the ability of defenders to respawn inside the city's walls.
Whether that involves destroying the "bind point" itself, or having necromancers (or whomever) amongst the siege force cutting off each defender that falls, we don't yet know, but it feels as if there might never be a "last push" at the town hall. One or both sides may or may not be able simply not to care if they fall in some frenetic almost-there combat, and imagine if the attackers develop or discover the ability to respawn at wherever the defenders are going...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have to say I with you on this one Pagan.
I think that if a settlement member is online and in the settlement when it is attacked they should suffer at least a rep hit if they do not actively assist in the defense.
I don't know if that could rightly be automated, but even if the settlement citizenry has to vote to castigate some jerk who will not help then so be it.
The walls have fallen, the enemy are in the street and driving towards the town hall for the settlement capture. Frankly no crafting helps at this point the only thing that can be done is throw bodies in the way and hope to wear them down before they complete capture.I've not yet understood scenarios like this one. Pharasma recalls us all to life when we fall, but these examples seem to be written from the real-world "you have one life, use it well" point-of-view.
If the "bind point"--or whatever they end up being--is in the besieged city, then the defenders can take advantage of that, and presumably the attackers can't. We've learned, however, that severing a character's "bind point" connection will be part of play as well; it seems, to me, that a key part of any siege will be destroying the ability of defenders to respawn inside the city's walls.
Whether that involves destroying the "bind point" itself, or having necromancers (or whomever) amongst the siege force cutting off each defender that falls, we don't yet know, but it feels as if there might never be a "last push" at the town hall. One or both sides may or may not be able simply not to care if they fall in some frenetic almost-there combat, and imagine if the attackers develop or discover the ability to respawn at wherever the defenders are going...
While indeed we come back to life and respawn at a bind point that will still take you out of the defense for a time (many games give incremental increases to respawn times in pvp deaths for example that GW may implement) and that time may well be enough to give the offense sufficient time to capture the point they need to turn control of the settlement to themselves. At which point I expect the defenders to lose use of the bind point (Note this is speculation but I don't think its unreasonable as scenarios go). Delaying the enemy from capture even for a minute may be all thats needed for some of your competent pvp'ers to get back into the fray and save the day.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From earlier in the thread:
I already said earlier in this thread that if your assumption that a crafter fighting would be a useful activity then I would completely agree with you.
By the way thank you for spelling out what you are saying and what you perceive me to say.
It appears that the difference in opinion is based on the assumption whether a crafter picking up a weapon is designed as the most useful activity or not in the context of the situation "settlement is about to fall".
From earlier in the thread:I already said earlier in this thread that if your assumption that a crafter fighting would be a useful activity then I would completely agree with you.By the way thank you for spelling out what you are saying and what you perceive me to say.
It appears that the difference in opinion is based on the assumption whether a crafter picking up a weapon in designed as the most useful activity or not in the context of the situation "settlement is about to fall".
I had a feeling our disagreement was more stemming from the point about whether picking up a sword was ever going to be the most useful thing so thought spelling out seemed like a good way of discovering that :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unless I've missed it one point I haven't seen brought up is that you likely won't be able to log into your DT at the same time as your main. So if you have a combat oriented main and a pure crafter DT you can only log onto one of them during a fight. It's pretty obvious who would be more useful during the fight.
In the case of someone without DT, it's still possible they can have dedicated crafter alts. Multiboxing with that crafter alt seems marginally useful at best: the drop in your 'efficiency' at combat due to multiboxing isn't likely to be made up for by the mediocre damage such an alt can do.
Based on what I've seen of the combat system, I really don't see someone with limited combat skills who has access to maybe 1-2 keywords on their equipment being of any use in terms of damage dealing against a well armed opposing force. As some other minor combat role (eg. tacklers in EVE)? Maybe.
All dps in this game is relative to your opponent's stats. You might do 40 dps again one opponent, 10 vs another and be unable to damage a 3rd. 'Plinking' away at an opponent is about all a low combat skill character will be able to do in a real fight - if they can do damage at all.
You're best off just creating specialized alts. So just because you have a crafter character not participating in combat doesn't mean the player isn't in that fight.
Unless I've missed it one point I haven't seen brought up is that you likely won't be able to log into your DT at the same time as your main. So if you have a combat oriented main and a pure crafter DT you can only log onto one of them during a fight. It's pretty obvious who would be more useful during the fight.
In the case of someone without DT, it's still possible they can have dedicated crafter alts. Multiboxing with that crafter alt seems marginally useful at best: the drop in your 'efficiency' at combat due to multiboxing isn't likely to be made up for by the mediocre damage such an alt can do.
Based on what I've seen of the combat system, I really don't see someone with limited combat skills who has access to maybe 1-2 keywords on their equipment being of any use in terms of damage dealing against a well armed opposing force. As some other minor combat role (eg. tacklers in EVE)? Maybe.
All dps in this game is relative to your opponent's stats. You might do 40 dps again one opponent, 10 vs another and be unable to damage a 3rd. 'Plinking' away at an opponent is about all a low combat skill character will be able to do in a real fight - if they can do damage at all.
You're best off just creating specialized alts. So just because you have a crafter character not participating in combat doesn't mean the player isn't in that fight.
Destinies twin I believe is reserved to kickstarters, come OE therefore people with destinies twin on their account therefore are going to be in the minority (at least I would imagine Ryan hopes so :) )
While what you say is true Nightdrifter you are making the assumption that everyone will have multiple alts I think many will not and will play a single character frankly. I currently have more than one account in Eve because I find it useful. Currently I have no plans for a second account in PfO therefore no second character because I am as yet unconvinced that I will need a second one. My present plans would only mean therefore having a crafting/merchant character.
In eve our alliance looked at it this way if you were logged on we expected that character to be helping defend, or you could log to another and use that to help defend but if you were on and Red Alliance had jumped into our system we expected you to be there with us
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Goblin Squad Member
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Destinies twin I believe is reserved to kickstarters, come OE therefore people with destinies twin on their account therefore are going to be in the minority (at least I would imagine Ryan hopes so :) )
While what you say is true Nightdrifter you are making the assumption that everyone will have multiple alts I think many will not and will play a single character frankly. I currently have more than one account in Eve because I find it useful. Currently I have no plans for a second account in PfO therefore no second character because I am as yet unconvinced that I will need a second one. My present plans would...
Okay, not everyone will have alts. But many people will, so expecting every character to be combat trained isn't necessarily ideal, at least in the case of alts.
And I'm not convinced of the combat viability of crafters at all - at least in a dps role. You'd have to send a small swarm of poorly skilled crafters to even make a dent against an enemy with combat trained characters. Against T3 equipped opponents those low combat skill crafters might as well just throw their gear away and have the same effect as charging in.
Okay, not everyone will have alts. But many people will, so expecting every character to be combat trained isn't necessarily ideal, at least in the case of alts.And I'm not convinced of the combat viability of crafters at all - at least in a dps role. You'd have to send a small swarm of poorly skilled crafters to even make a dent against an enemy with combat trained characters. Against T3 equipped opponents those low combat skill crafters might as well just throw their gear away and have the same effect as charging in.
And I wasn't saying people had to have large amounts of combat training whether alts or not.Nor was anyone else all they were suggesting was you at least had the ability to pick up a sword and hit someone with it. If you have a crafting specialised and combat specialised alt by all means log on your combat alt to fight. The point remains if you are on line and your settlement needs you do what you can.
I was merely saying that sometimes no matter how few combat skills you have the best thing you can do to help your settlement is pick up a sword and fight and if you are in that situation you should be prepared to do it. The exercise is more to buy time for the PVP'ers to get back into the fray than as an exercise to actually kill the enemy in many cases.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I imagine most crafters will have at least *some* combat skills, anyway. Unless they always have someone on hand to go out of town with them when it's time to travel from point a to point b for trade or resource gathering, they're going to want to have *something* even if only to make themselves somewhat effective against NPC mobs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was merely saying that sometimes no matter how few combat skills you have the best thing you can do to help your settlement is pick up a sword and fight and if you are in that situation you should be prepared to do it. The exercise is more to buy time for the PVP'ers to get back into the fray than as an exercise to actually kill the enemy in many cases.
Okay, but 'speed bump' is about all such a character will be. Again returning to the all-dps-is-relative point: with access to only a handful of keywords the crafter would have pretty high dps against them. So while they could definitely serve as a speed bump, it's not much of one. Maybe 30-40 s if it's only a single opponent they're taking blows from. Maybe a minute if they blow through consumables and situational actions. Against T3 it might be closer to 20s or so.
They might be better off training as some form of tackler or healer type role instead if you insist on them being in combat.
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@Nightdrifter
For the last time I am not insisting on being in combat. This is the statement I am making
Every citizen of the settlement should be prepared to give 100% in helping the settlement in its time of need.To do this every citizen should be prepared to do whatever is the optimum action at the current moment.
Do you disagree with that?
Then consider in the light of that
IF the optimum action the player can take at this moment in time is to pick up a sword even if they have poor combat skills then they should be prepared to do it even if it is only to act as a speed bump.
I really do not understand why you consider the above two statements controversial
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not saying they shouldn't help in some way. I just don't see them being even remotely useful as damage dealing combatants. That's all. So to be clear the only thing I disagree with in this discussion is sending them into a fight to try dealing damage.
Such characters' usefulness comes from the equipment they supply the settlement's combatants. Even with a shallower power curve than many games, there is still definitely a curve. Slightly better gear can make all the difference, so their contribution has already been made by the time the fight breaks out. If the army has garbage gear then the crafters haven't done their part. If the army has amazing equipment then they have.
As far as what they can do during the fight - again I'm not saying they shouldn't help - they are better off doing some form of logistics instead of picking up a weapon. Something like repair for damaged gear, resupply of ammunition for wands/bows etc. Or maybe throwing around some limited healing or filling some other utility role. Just not weapon wielding combatants.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Deliberately obtuse silliness.
As with all things, this is primarily just speculation combined with the hope of the how the game might end up. This entire discussion can be boiled down to one statement that I believe most people would agree with; Settlements are in the right to expect their members to act in the most efficient manner when necessary. Sometimes that means playing the game in a way that you don't find particularly enjoyable.
If, come game release, it turns out that crafters are more useful on the field of battle than off, then settlements will expect those crafters to turn up and do their part. If, instead, crafters can contribute as much or more to the war effort from their forge, then they will be allowed to stay home and do their thing.
That shouldn't be a controversial statement. Sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do for the betterment of the group. PvPers have to guard merchant lines. PvEers have to clear out low skill, monotonous content. Crafters and Merchants may sometimes have to draw their swords and charge the enemy lines.
It all comes down to which is better for the settlement at the time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And I'm not convinced of the combat viability of crafters at all - at least in a dps role. You'd have to send a small swarm of poorly skilled crafters to even make a dent against an enemy with combat trained characters. Against T3 equipped opponents those low combat skill crafters might as well just throw their gear away and have the same effect as charging in.
I'm not sure. While those with low combat skills aren't going to prevail against a T3 equipped opponent, there's nothing that says everyone who shows up at a fight is going to be a T3. If "our" T1 and T2 militia can keep "their" T1s and T2s from joining in the fight between our T3s and their T3s, our T3s have a better chance.
There's also something to be said about mass: if we show up to a fight with 300 warriors in matching surcoats, the other side can't always know before the fight how many are T1s and which are T3s.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As far as what they can do during the fight - again I'm not saying they shouldn't help - they are better off doing some form of logistics instead of picking up a weapon. Something like repair for damaged gear, resupply of ammunition for wands/bows etc. Or maybe throwing around some limited healing or filling some other utility role. Just not weapon wielding combatants.
I don't see why not.
The difference between winning and losing is quite often a very close thing. That 'speed bump' as you called them could actually make all the difference in the world.
This is not to say that swinging a sword inexpertly will be the most valuable use of that character, but I do not understand why you exclude all possibility of the utility in slowing the raiders.
That one raider for that one heartbeat isn't battering your fellow citizens, and the difference between the settlement's fall and survival could be that slight delay of that last raider.
If a defender ran squealing in fear rather than standing sure, their reputation would surely suffer.
I wonder if the topic of settlements relationship to players in terms of their expectations of each other might be a good topic for a fresh start discussion on the coming weekend.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Such characters' usefulness comes from the equipment they supply the settlement's combatants. Even with a shallower power curve than many games, there is still definitely a curve. Slightly better gear can make all the difference, so their contribution has already been made by the time the fight breaks out. If the army has garbage gear then the crafters haven't done their part. If the army has amazing equipment then they have.
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This is assuming that the crafters are standing at their work stations, ignoring all that is going around them, and making weapons that are to be used in that very battle.
Pax Pagan has been framing the situation very well, and it should be received far more reasonably from someone like him, then it is from me. I get that, but the message is the same.
The real question is, in your settlement's time of greatest need, are you willing to do whatever they ask of you?
It is not about PVE vs PvP, it is about Selfishness vs. Altruism towards your settlement.
It was brought up earlier so I'll answer it here: if my settlement asked the UNC to specifically look to acquire a certain resource, we would raid for it or if need be we would gather it ourselves. If that became a request on a regular basis, that is when we might question if we are the best suited for the task.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have to say I with you on this one Pagan.
I think that if a settlement member is online and in the settlement when it is attacked they should suffer at least a rep hit if they do not actively assist in the defense.
I don't know if that could rightly be automated, but even if the settlement citizenry has to vote to castigate some jerk who will not help then so be it.
I have no qualms at all with Settlements being able to and/or moving forward and enacting this policy/law for them. I do have a problem with this being forced upon any settlement through any non-opted automated system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Even with zero combat skills, if I can distract 1 or a few enemies into chasing me for a few minutes, they are wasting their time and I have done SOMETHING immediate.
All of my prior contributions, while very significant, are moot when the s&~# hits the fan.
Whatever I can do of the most value, at the moment, is what I should be doing.
Edit: And doing that should not need to be forced or coerced.
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I have no qualms at all with Settlements being able to and/or moving forward and enacting this policy/law for them. I do have a problem with this being forced upon any settlement through any non-opted automated system.I have to say I with you on this one Pagan.
I think that if a settlement member is online and in the settlement when it is attacked they should suffer at least a rep hit if they do not actively assist in the defense.
I don't know if that could rightly be automated, but even if the settlement citizenry has to vote to castigate some jerk who will not help then so be it.
I dont believe anyone is calling for an automated system here we are merely discussing what settlements may expect of their members.
In general terms I think all settlements will look at player contributions in some fashion (not just in wartime) and use them to classify their citizens into categories which is likely to have some in game effect. This will vary greatly from settlement to settlement and is purely an agreement between those in the settlement it doesn't need any built in mechanic. It is down to each settlement to decide and enforce in the way they see fit.
An example would be if you have limited training slots for a skill and more people want to use them than can train at one time you may well prioritise on the basis of what each player contributes towards the settlement.
A player that plays mostly for themselves and doesn't do much to assist the settlement (whether PVP,PVE,Crafting or gathering) may often find themselves at the end of such queues. Indeed some players may even have a negative contribution to a settlement based upon the trouble they bring to a settlement by their action
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, then it sounds as if we have the beginnings of a resolution. Some players find the failure of settlement citizen to defend their fellows against violent incursion to be reprehensible. Others do not.
Given the rules of the River Road, and accepting that what is right and reasonable for Lawfuls is otherwise for Chaotics, it should be for the settlement to castigate members they feel are derelict in their duty.
It does seem the more balanced approach.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And I'm not convinced of the combat viability of crafters at all - at least in a dps role. You'd have to send a small swarm of poorly skilled crafters to even make a dent against an enemy with combat trained characters. Against T3 equipped opponents those low combat skill crafters might as well just throw their gear away and have the same effect as charging in.I'm not sure. While those with low combat skills aren't going to prevail against a T3 equipped opponent, there's nothing that says everyone who shows up at a fight is going to be a T3. If "our" T1 and T2 militia can keep "their" T1s and T2s from joining in the fight between our T3s and their T3s, our T3s have a better chance.
There's also something to be said about mass: if we show up to a fight with 300 warriors in matching surcoats, the other side can't always know before the fight how many are T1s and which are T3s.
Even assuming no T3 at all there are still examples where a low combat character is borderline useless as a dps'er. Maybe not as a speedbump/distraction, but definitely as a viable combatant.
damage done = (1-penalty)*(damage factor)(base damage - resistance)
If the last term is 0, damage done is 0.
Base damage ~ 40 + (tier-1)*20 + (number of minor keywords)*5
The tier-1 corresponds to the number of major keywords. You have 1-4 minor keywords on an item.
Heavy armor resistance ~ 27 + (tier-1)*12 + (number of minor keywords)*3
While EE will mostly be T1, in the long term I really don't see real armies equipping their army with it. T2 is significantly better. The crafter's job is to get their army into it.
So take T2 heavy armor (what the real soldier wears) and T1 weapon (what the crafter can actually equip - and even if it's actually a T2 weapon it'll still behave as T1 due to the crafter's lack of skills).
A low skilled combatant won't likely have access to more than ~2 minor keywords.
1 minor keyword on armor (cheapest T2): r = 42.
Base damage - resistance (1 minor keyword on weapon) = 3
Base damage - resistance (2 minor keywords) = 8.
2 minor keywords on armor: r = 45
Base damage - resistance (1 minor keyword on weapon) = 0
Base damage - resistance (2 minor keywords on weapon) = 5
3 minor keywords on armor: r = 48
Base damage - resistance (1 minor keyword on weapon) = 0
Base damage - resistance (2 minor keywords on weapon) = 2
4 minor keywords on armor: r = 51
need 3+ keywords on weapon to even damage him.
Now, what about the converse (damage to the crafter)?
Again the crafter has ~1-2 minor keywords on his T1 armor (again, even if it's really T2 it'll behave as T1). So if he's using heavy armor his resistance is 30 or 33. His T2 opponent has base damage of 60+5*n, where n=1 to 4 (# of minor keywords on his weapon).
So the T2 opponent has base damage - resistance from 65-33 = 32 up to 80-30 = 50.
32 up to 50 compared to something in the range of 0 to 8.
That's not all. Mutliply that by the damage factor and then take into account the penalty. The penalty is going to be large for the crafter as he's fighting up a tier and very small for the real soldier. Ie that 0 to 7 effectively gets reduced* and that 32 to 50 barely changes.
*as a very quick estimate, something like 35%, but that's just a crude estimate. So 0 to 8 becomes 0 to 5.
Then we need to take into account hp. That soldier is likely to have max while the crafter might not.
I hope this makes it clear how badly the crafter is outmatched even when no T3 equipment comes into play. T3 is even worse of a matchup as the crafter's dps in all combinations of minor keywords is 0.
(To be fair, the crafter could go with energy damage and have somewhat improved dps against heavy armor, but he'll likely have to be in cloth. To see the effect of him wearing cloth the 65-32 up to 80-30 becomes 65-0 up to 80-0.)
Edit: minor calculation error. Oops.
Edit #2: Just want to add that that 35% penalty is likely going to be even more as the soldier will have trained his reflex up. So probably more like 45% penalty vs. almost no penalty.
Edit #3: So taking this range numbers and ballparking the soldier's hp at 2000 (max) and the crafter's at 1200 (decent, but not maxed), and using 45% penalty compared to no penalty, it takes the crafter somewhere from 325 up to infinite swings to kill the soldier. It takes the soldier somewhere from 17 up to 27 swings to kill the crafter. Ya, send those crafters in!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think again, Pax Pagan has hit upon the gist of the argument. I would only add, perhaps more bluntly, this point.
Crafters need settlements far more than settlements need crafters. The settlement is providing the crafter far more than what the settlement is getting in return. I'm not saying the crafter offers nothing, just that they offer less than what they get.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For some the odds against success speak only louder of the heroism of facing it with resolve. Others find heroism a foolish romanticism and would not enter a burning building to save a child.
But if most citizens in a settlement hold heroism in esteem, and think that running from a battle because of bad odds is cowardice, then the odds maker who runs should not be surprised if there are repercussions.
A chaotic town, or sometimes a neutral town, is where the oddsmaker might be likely to find a more sympathetic hearing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's also something to be said about mass: if we show up to a fight with 300 warriors in matching surcoats, the other side can't always know before the fight how many are T1s and which are T3s.
I seem to remember a discussion about Appearance Slots and a comment from Ryan or one of the devs that they wanted to make it obvious what tier of gear you're wearing. I'm having trouble finding it, though.