Could PFO Thrive with No Unsanctioned PvP?

[Nihimon]

Pax Pagan wrote:

KitNyx wrote:

Being wrote:

I have to say I with you on this one Pagan.

I think that if a settlement member is online and in the settlement when it is attacked they should suffer at least a rep hit if they do not actively assist in the defense.

I don't know if that could rightly be automated, but even if the settlement citizenry has to vote to castigate some jerk who will not help then so be it.

I have no qualms at all with Settlements being able to and/or moving forward and enacting this policy/law for them. I do have a problem with this being forced upon any settlement through any non-opted automated system.

I dont believe anyone is calling for an automated system here we are merely discussing what settlements may expect of their members.

I highlighted the part from Being that sounded like he was calling for exactly that kind of automated system.

[Pax Pagan]

Bluddwolf wrote:

Crafters need settlements far more than settlements need crafters. The settlement is providing the crafter far more than what the settlement is getting in return. I'm not saying the crafter offers nothing, just that they offer less than what they get.

There I would disagree with you Bludd, while it is true in Eve that is because you have a large high sec with a massive industrial base of characters happy to sit there and supply the needs of all the PVP'ers. Null sec alliances do not need industrial players and many dont have them at all because they can source everything they need from the high sec players. This will not be true in Pathfinder where all of the decent gear will be made in player settlements.

If most gathering and industrial work had to be done in null sec, industrialists in Eve would be in a lot stronger position in alliances there. That will be true in Pathfinder.

A settlement going to war may find that it has to rely totally on its own crafters and material stock piles during the war. Crafters will be hugely important and in my view certainly as important as an army.

Pax takes the view that strength is built on three pillars

Coin, Logistics , Military strength. None of those can stand independently

[Bringslite]

Bluddwolf wrote:

I think again, Pax Pagan has hit upon the gist of the argument. I would only add, perhaps more bluntly, this point.

Crafters need settlements far more than settlements need crafters. The settlement is providing the crafter far more than what the settlement is getting in return. I'm not saying the crafter offers nothing, just that they offer less than what they get.

A matter of what value you put on things.

I call "poppycock".

[Pax Pagan]

Nihimon wrote:

Pax Pagan wrote:

KitNyx wrote:

Being wrote:

I have to say I with you on this one Pagan.

I think that if a settlement member is online and in the settlement when it is attacked they should suffer at least a rep hit if they do not actively assist in the defense.

I don't know if that could rightly be automated, but even if the settlement citizenry has to vote to castigate some jerk who will not help then so be it.

I have no qualms at all with Settlements being able to and/or moving forward and enacting this policy/law for them. I do have a problem with this being forced upon any settlement through any non-opted automated system.

I dont believe anyone is calling for an automated system here we are merely discussing what settlements may expect of their members.

I highlighted the part from Being that sounded like he was calling for exactly that kind of automated system.

I missed that, ok one person is possibly suggesting a system but my view on it is still it should be left to an organisation to decide and deal as they see fit

[Imbicatus]

Bluddwolf wrote:

Crafters need settlements far more than settlements need crafters. The settlement is providing the crafter far more than what the settlement is getting in return. I'm not saying the crafter offers nothing, just that they offer less than what they get.

I think this is based on EVE and the fact that in EVE Crafters can sit in high sec and churn out items that are readily available on the the open market without ever going into null-sec. PFO will be taking steps to ensure that crafters will NOT be able to churn out high quality equipment in NPC controlled "high-sec" areas. In order to craft quality equipment, the crafter will need to be in a player settlement that is outside of NPC areas. The high quality equipment will not be readily available on the open market, and treading+destruction means that looting kills is not going be a reliable method of obtaining good gear, especially with the huge differences between T1 and T2 equipment.

[Pax Charlie George]

Pax Pagan wrote:

Bluddwolf wrote:

Crafters need settlements far more than settlements need crafters. The settlement is providing the crafter far more than what the settlement is getting in return. I'm not saying the crafter offers nothing, just that they offer less than what they get.

There I would disagree with you Bludd, while it is true in Eve that is because you have a large high sec with a massive industrial base of characters happy to sit there and supply the needs of all the PVP'ers. Null sec alliances do not need industrial players and many dont have them at all because they can source everything they need from the high sec players. This will not be true in Pathfinder where all of the decent gear will be made in player settlements.

If most gathering and industrial work had to be done in null sec, industrialists in Eve would be in a lot stronger position in alliances there. That will be true in Pathfinder.

A settlement going to war may find that it has to rely totally on its own crafters and material stock piles during the war. Crafters will be hugely important and in my view certainly as important as an army.

Pax takes the view that strength is built on three pillars

Coin, Logistics , Military strength. None of those can stand independently

I have nothing to add to this, but it does express the Pax position in relation to the economic pillar. Our merchant side will of course not be second citizens, and I think it unlikely that other settlements will consider them so at least initially.

[Being]

Nihimon wrote:

I highlighted the part from Being that sounded like he was calling for exactly that kind of automated system.

I did, but I was unsure whether it could rightly be automated. There are so many possible ways a citizen could contribute that it would probably be an exercise in futility because of outlier cases.

Then Kit's counterargument put it in a different light than I had used and I reevaluated my position. I considered the differences in the values likely between the domains of law and chaos, and concluded it would be unbalanced to automate.

[Being]

It occurred to me that if player characters can have their rep damaged by certain behaviors such as 'ganking', then too someone who sits back and sneers at the community behind their walls, refusing to lend a hand then that, too, is a kind of jerk.

[Nightdrifter]

I edited a post a few times, so it's likely gotten buried. So I'll repeat the results of a ballpark-the-numbers combat between a T2 geared well skilled fighter with max hp (2000) vs. a low skill crafter who can access 1-2 minor keywords on T1 equipment and has decent hp (1200), but not max.

It's only a single example, but it should hopefully illustrate my point that crafters are garbage at dps.

The results:

It takes the crafter somewhere from 325 up to infinite swings to kill the soldier. It takes the soldier somewhere from 17 up to 27 swings to kill the crafter.

Seriously.

[Urman]

Being wrote:

I did, but I was unsure whether it could rightly be automated. There are so many possible ways a citizen could contribute that it would probably be an exercise in futility because of outlier cases.

Then Kit's counterargument put it in a different light than I had used and I reevaluated my position. I considered the differences in the values likely between the domains of law and chaos, and concluded it would be unbalanced to automate.

Agree that automating it seems difficult. It's sort of up to each settlement to decide which contributions are worthy.

But speaking of that, I'll go back to the topic of second-class citizens. I think that PFO might encourage feudalistic systems of rewards. When a settlement expands its control over a new wilderness hex, some company is going to need to control it. Which company? Maybe a company of proven loyalty, some combat ability to provide for the ready defense of the POI and outposts, and enough Influence to make the claim and have some in reserve. Yup, a combat-focused company.

How is the settlement going to raise taxes/coin? Well, you can skim some fraction off each trade in your market - that's probably doable, with GW support - but may not raise a lot of coin. How do you capture some fraction of the value of the resources collected? It might not move through your market. The answer might be selling/auctioning the harvesting rights for hexes to gathering companies, for either coin or in kind. How does the small operator harvest? He harvests stuff that no one has bought the rights for, and your guard periodically search inventories (if they can) for illicit gathering.

[Pax Areks]

Pax Charlie George wrote:

Pax Pagan wrote:

Bluddwolf wrote:

Crafters need settlements far more than settlements need crafters. The settlement is providing the crafter far more than what the settlement is getting in return. I'm not saying the crafter offers nothing, just that they offer less than what they get.

There I would disagree with you Bludd, while it is true in Eve that is because you have a large high sec with a massive industrial base of characters happy to sit there and supply the needs of all the PVP'ers. Null sec alliances do not need industrial players and many dont have them at all because they can source everything they need from the high sec players. This will not be true in Pathfinder where all of the decent gear will be made in player settlements.

If most gathering and industrial work had to be done in null sec, industrialists in Eve would be in a lot stronger position in alliances there. That will be true in Pathfinder.

A settlement going to war may find that it has to rely totally on its own crafters and material stock piles during the war. Crafters will be hugely important and in my view certainly as important as an army.

Pax takes the view that strength is built on three pillars

Coin, Logistics , Military strength. None of those can stand independently

I have nothing to add to this, but it does express the Pax position in relation to the economic pillar. Our merchant side will of course not be second citizens, and I think it unlikely that other settlements will consider them so at least initially.

Thirded. Crafters create the items that drive the economy, which if manipulated with any ammount of skill will provide at least minimal ammount of funds necessary to pay for conflicts. Aquisition of resources through force is only a short, more volitile, answer to the funding issue... I expect this to be a tactic used to gain an economical advantage while at war, not a tactic to fuel a war. It may be more viable in fueds, but still having only a few crafters within a settlement will likely hamstring it's economy.

[Nihimon]

@Being, no worries. I understand the point you were trying to make, and wasn't trying to say anything about it at all.

@Nightdrifter, I expect that "somewhere from 17 up to 27 swings to kill the crafter" is what folks who want those crafters on the front lines are interested in. That's 17 to 27 swings that aren't going on a PvPer.

For my part, the dignity and self-determination of our members is extremely important. I expect that the vast majority of those who join The Seventh Veil and live in our Settlement (if we're lucky enough to have and hold one) will voluntarily choose to place themselves on the front line, but those who don't will still be treated with respect.

[Bringslite]

Nightdrifter wrote:

I edited a post a few times, so it's likely gotten buried. So I'll repeat the results of a ballpark-the-numbers combat between a T2 geared well skilled fighter with max hp (2000) vs. a low skill crafter who can access 1-2 minor keywords on T1 equipment and has decent hp (1200), but not max.

It's only a single example, but it should hopefully illustrate my point that crafters are garbage at dps.

The results:

It takes the crafter somewhere from 325 up to infinite swings to kill the soldier. It takes the soldier somewhere from 17 up to 27 swings to kill the crafter.

Seriously.

I do really appreciate you and other's work in crunching the numbers. It is actually pretty neat to get a look at this kind of thing.

I don't think that anyone would argue that the fight described would be a preferred one and certainly not an optimal use of skills.

Do you think that it would be better to "not help" in a complete over run situation or when needed in a siege? All of this assuming that the situation leaves me with no time to utilize my preferred, trained skill set?

[Nightdrifter]

Bringslite wrote:

Nightdrifter wrote:

I edited a post a few times, so it's likely gotten buried. So I'll repeat the results of a ballpark-the-numbers combat between a T2 geared well skilled fighter with max hp (2000) vs. a low skill crafter who can access 1-2 minor keywords on T1 equipment and has decent hp (1200), but not max.

It's only a single example, but it should hopefully illustrate my point that crafters are garbage at dps.

The results:

It takes the crafter somewhere from 325 up to infinite swings to kill the soldier. It takes the soldier somewhere from 17 up to 27 swings to kill the crafter.

Seriously.

I do really appreciate you and other's work in crunching the numbers. It is actually pretty neat to get a look at this kind of thing.

I don't think that anyone would argue that the fight described would be a preferred one and certainly not an optimal use of skills.

Do you think that it would be better to "not help" in a complete over run situation or when needed in a siege? All of this assuming that the situation leaves me with no time to utilize my preferred, trained skill set?

I really don't see the point of the crafter even picking up a physical weapon in this scenario. Maybe a wand. Maybe. He'd be of more use running resupply. Or instead of training to use a weapon, train to heal a little bit to keep the viable soldiers standing a little longer.

Oh, and a beginning player has ~400 hp. So that 1200 assumes he's trained up his hp some. If he hasn't then 17-27 swings is reduced by a corresponding amount.

Edit: Crude ballpark on a wand (1.3 damage factor, same penalty, 45 base damage, 12 resistance) then ~85 attacks to kill the soldier. Much better, but then the crafter is in cloth armor and is killed almost twice as fast.

[Being]

The difference between first place and last is often milliseconds. Delaying the invader for even a second could make all the difference, let alone 12 six-second stamina pulses.

[DeciusBrutus]

If the settlement has fallen and the extra effort won't stop the invaders, the noncombatants serve best by grabbing the things that can be evacuated and denying them to the invader. If they might turn defeat into victory, then they should probably try, but the premise to start was that the characters under discussion were unlikely to have a significant effect.

[Bringslite]

Nightdrifter wrote:

Bringslite wrote:

Nightdrifter wrote:

I edited a post a few times, so it's likely gotten buried. So I'll repeat the results of a ballpark-the-numbers combat between a T2 geared well skilled fighter with max hp (2000) vs. a low skill crafter who can access 1-2 minor keywords on T1 equipment and has decent hp (1200), but not max.

It's only a single example, but it should hopefully illustrate my point that crafters are garbage at dps.

The results:

It takes the crafter somewhere from 325 up to infinite swings to kill the soldier. It takes the soldier somewhere from 17 up to 27 swings to kill the crafter.

Seriously.

I do really appreciate you and other's work in crunching the numbers. It is actually pretty neat to get a look at this kind of thing.

I don't think that anyone would argue that the fight described would be a preferred one and certainly not an optimal use of skills.

Do you think that it would be better to "not help" in a complete over run situation or when needed in a siege? All of this assuming that the situation leaves me with no time to utilize my preferred, trained skill set?

I really don't see the point of the crafter even picking up a physical weapon in this scenario. Maybe a wand. Maybe. He'd be of more use running resupply. Or instead of training to use a weapon, train to heal a little bit to keep the viable soldiers standing a little longer.

Oh, and a beginning player has ~400 hp. So that 1200 assumes he's trained up his hp some. If he hasn't then 17-27 swings is reduced by a corresponding amount.

That is a viable point and understanding dawns. I think that is all down to whatever helps the most. Very situational, but a strategic and personal decision each will make for their character.

If I choose to be a crafter (as an example) AND there is room for me to train a bit in some skills (to help in last ditch PVP combat), yet still remain a cutting edge crafter, I will have to choose what skills will help the most (tempered by my least distasteful options).

All of that is also moderated by how much value being at the "cutting edge" has over being just "highly skilled".

Choices based on my preferences, tempered by my settlement's needs, and (of course) by opportunity/cost.

[Nightdrifter]

Nihimon wrote:

@Nightdrifter, I expect that "somewhere from 17 up to 27 swings to kill the crafter" is what folks who want those crafters on the front lines are interested in. That's 17 to 27 swings that aren't going on a PvPer.

Just to give you a ballpark for the same soldier fighting his clone. Assume equal offensive and defensive skill and equal number of weapon keywords as armor keywords.

Swings to kill enemy T2 soldier:
1 keyword: 75
2 keywords: 69
3 keywords: 64
4 keywords: 59

That's assuming 0 healing. So yes, the crafter can be a speedbump (I've never said he couldn't). But if you have healing - and who wouldn't? - you're almost certainly going to prioritize the real soldier over the speedbump crafter. So the soldier stays standing longer than the above.

Oh, and if you want to know the time these fights take, it's 3 swings/round and 6s/round, so if you double the number of swings you get the time in seconds.

[Aeioun Plainsweed]

I hope people who just want to be crafters are allowed to do just that. I understand if there are some companies or settlements that don't want such people in their ranks, but I also hope there are a lot others that do. Well, it all comes down to what kind of atmosphere the leaders of the settlement want, but I hope the game mechanics are flexible enough not to force those crafters into combat.

It might seem legitimate that some companies will require their crafters to get some combat training before they start crafting. This might be a way to min/max certain situations.

This feels like some min/max discussion where roleplaying doesn't exist. Yack!

[Nightdrifter]

Aeioun Plainsweed wrote:

I hope people who just want to be crafters are allowed to do just that. I understand if there are some companies or settlements that don't want such people in their ranks, but I also hope there are a lot others that do. Well, it all comes down to what kind of atmosphere the leaders of the settlement want, but I hope the game mechanics are flexible enough not to force those crafters into combat.

It might seem legitimate that some companies will require their crafters to get some combat training before they start crafting. This might be a way to min/max certain situations.

This feels like some min/max discussion where roleplaying doesn't exist. Yack!

I can't see crafters being rejected by settlements. Gear quality is a big factor in combat. Gear only comes from crafters. So without a group of good crafters I just can't see a settlement being viable when push comes to shove.

[Being]

Creativity requires diversity. Thus: These people about you.

[Bringslite]

I think that the number of people that are saying that non combat skilled players contributions to their settlements are of any less value are very few.

Most people know that all parts of the Machine must function in harmony for the best results.

[Pax Areks]

DeciusBrutus wrote:

If the settlement has fallen and the extra effort won't stop the invaders, the noncombatants serve best by grabbing the things that can be evacuated and denying them to the invader. If they might turn defeat into victory, then they should probably try, but the premise to start was that the characters under discussion were unlikely to have a significant effect.

Bluddwolf wrote:

I don't recall anyone actually saying they would not be welcomed. What I had argued was that when your settlement is under siege, a possibly on the brink of falling, that crafting skill of 300 is of little use at that time.

I have frequently recommended that all characters of a Settlement should have the minimum of "basic" survival and combat skills. Even if their contribution is nothing more than delaying a rush through the gates by invaders, by a combat round or two, it still gives more time for your pvpers to take action.

If raiders are burning down your home, you shouldn't be taking pies out of the oven, or finishing up that last horse shoe to fill an order.

The effect of those crafters engaging in PvP can only be determined once the mechanics are tested and then actual results will likely vary from conflict to conflict. Even then, impact and intent are matters of opinion.

Your settlement falling and you guys making it out with valuables may meet the determined parameters for "moral victory".

If our crafters have to die a few times and we keep our settlement standing, that meets the determined parameters for "moral victory".

Through different outcomes, we both achieve our own "moral victory".

Which brings us to Nihimon's point... on this specific aspect of the matter, our opinions diverge.

[Nihimon]

Nightdrifter wrote:

So yes, the crafter can be a speedbump (I've never said he couldn't). But if you have healing - and who wouldn't? - you're almost certainly going to prioritize the real soldier over the speedbump crafter. So the soldier stays standing longer than the above.

Oh, I totally agree. It's certainly not my argument that the speed bumps would be necessary or effective :)

[Being]

"Think of it as a target-rich environment." ~attributed to Gen. G.A.Custer

[Imbicatus]

Also, why would any serious PVPer even deign to engage the cafters pressed into service until all the true threats are dead? If a defender is is doing minimal damage to the attackers, then they are a low priority target. What would stop anyone from running past them to engage the real fighters? Opportunity is not a factor, because the crafters with minimal combat training will not be able to capitalize on it. Why waste 17 swing to kill them when they can't kill you when you can be attacking a real defender who is a threat?

[Nightdrifter]

Based on the numbers, here's the best advice I can give for the moment to any crafter who wants to be the best speed-bump they can when facing an invasion:

*Pay attention to the market when it comes to enchantments. These are the source of energy damage resistance as far as I know. Figure out which ones are the least popular. That will be the resistance that you want to be attacking as few people will have it.

Make a wand/rod/staff which does damage of that type and has a few keywords. Train attacks specifically for that wand. Or conversely make the wand with keywords corresponding to whichever attack you have which has the most keywords.

*Train a little bit of healing. Not for yourself though. It's to heal others.

*Find the heaviest armor you can wear and still use the wand+healing. Train a defensive feat to allow you access to some of the keywords.

*Ask your soldiers what the most common energy damage used in aoe's is. Enchant your armor against that.

*Resist the urge to use anti-depressants when invaded and seeing that you're still badly outmatched against enemy soldiers. Try to stay near the back.

[Pax Areks]

Imbicatus wrote:

Also, why would any serious PVPer even deign to engage the cafters pressed into service until all the true threats are dead? If a defender is is doing minimal damage to the attackers, then they are a low priority target. What would stop anyone from running past them to engage the real fighters? Opportunity is not a factor, because the crafters with minimal combat training will not be able to capitalize on it. Why waste 17 swing to kill them when they can't kill you when you can be attacking a real defender who is a threat?

With a lessened power curve, focusing on fighters who get healed means sustaining prolonged minimal to moderate damage by crafters. Is that significant enough to turn the tide, we don't know. With the information we know now... it is not impossible thus a valid approach until proven improbable.

[Bringslite]

Imbicatus wrote:

Also, why would any serious PVPer even deign to engage the cafters pressed into service until all the true threats are dead? If a defender is is doing minimal damage to the attackers, then they are a low priority target. What would stop anyone from running past them to engage the real fighters? Opportunity is not a factor, because the crafters with minimal combat training will not be able to capitalize on it. Why waste 17 swing to kill them when they can't kill you when you can be attacking a real defender who is a threat?

How much your enemy can be distracted from his objectives is often a pretty significant factor. Some can be, and will have a greater chance of failure because of that, and some can't.

Not trying to slow them or distract them will, more often than not, lead to them not being slowed or distracted.

[Urman]

Imbicatus wrote:

Also, why would any serious PVPer even deign to engage the cafters pressed into service until all the true threats are dead?

Some of the crafters might be roled as rogues, just to get sneak attack/damage bonuses on anybody who *doesn't* target them. :D

[Sepherum]

The tendency of peeps to take a 'side' in an argument (discussion?) and allow their respective stances to harden has become rather apparent in this thread. I don't know if you call the characters responsible for managing the construction site of a fortress/settlement 'crafters' exactly, but that is not a combat skill. Nor is building walls, stone quarries, logging camps, other POIs, training facilities, moats, armories full of weapons and armor with the masterwork keyword, etc. Where on earth you're going to find the siege-worthy settlement packed with shining defenders who reached that point without a ton of crafters is beyond me. And there aren't going to be crafters standing around waiting to be slaughtered in battle or merrily painting a carriage amidst the carnage. The characters who don't wish to swing their commoner back-up weapon in defense will be running away with full, crafted containers of stuff they wish to save. Or just be logged out.

[Nightdrifter]

I can't find the actual webcomic anymore, but there was a great one back in vanilla wow called Flintlocke. When they were pvping:

Flintlocke: What am I s'posed ta do?
Bloodrose: Honestly, Flintlocke, you're a warrior spec'd for PVE. At best you're a distraction.
Undressed Flintlocke, two minutes later: LOOKAT ME YEH SONSAB$@&#ERS!!

[Being]

Sepherum wrote:

The tendency of peeps to take a 'side' in an argument (discussion?) and allow their respective stances to harden has become rather apparent in this thread. I don't know if you call the characters responsible for managing the construction site of a fortress/settlement 'crafters' exactly, but that is not a combat skill. Nor is building walls, stone quarries, logging camps, other POIs, training facilities, moats, armories full of weapons and armor with the masterwork keyword, etc. Where on earth you're going to find the siege-worthy settlement packed with shining defenders who reached that point without a ton of crafters is beyond me. And there aren't going to be crafters standing around waiting to be slaughtered in battle or merrily painting a carriage amidst the carnage. The characters who don't wish to swing their commoner back-up weapon in defense will be running away with full, crafted containers of stuff they wish to save. Or just be logged out.

I think it went south when somebody decided crafters would be their servants, you know, second class citizens.

[Bluddwolf]

I think an important outcome from this long discussion would be for crafters, merchants, and other typically non combatants to have roles in a siege that is unique to them.

They could have tasks that help the various DIs regenerate, something that only they with their training could do.

This way they would have an equally important role and one that would eliminate that "second class" status that Ryan had suggested.

[Being]

It did get feedback. <em/marks one more tally on the chalkboard>

Some folks seemed to get into the idea.

[Imbicatus]

Bluddwolf wrote:

I think an important outcome from this long discussion would be for crafters, merchants, and other typically non combatants to have roles in a siege that is unique to them.

They could have tasks that help the various DIs regenerate, something that only they with their training could do.

This way they would have an equally important role and one that would eliminate that "second class" status that Ryan had suggested.

This is what I truly wish to see happen. Experts ("Crafter" role) would be able to repair any damage to fortifications/DIs. Aristocrats ("administrator" role) would be able to boost DIs and offer Morale buffs to fighters. Commoners ("Gatherer" role) could drag bodies out of combat and grant a bonus to rez time.

[Nightdrifter]

Ideally I'd like to see something like what Bluddwolf suggests: repairing DI/walls/buildings or the like.

Another use of crafters in combat: going over your roster of pvp combatants and figuring out who isn't online. Then phone those people to get them online.

[Being]

Having valuable non-combatant civilians in town might prompt a more significant readiness of NPC guards for some factions... maybe less so for others.

[Urman]

Emergent gameplay. It sort of means that GW doesn't need to build combat roles for non-combatants into the game. The organizations where the non-combatants do effective things (whatever those turn out to be) will survive to pass the lessons along.

[Nightdrifter]

In case anyone is worried about the serious imbalance in power between low skill combat characters vs. higher skilled ones, I just found a rather shocking result in the balance of this system. I don't know if it's intentional by the devs or not, but if it is I'm impressed.

cleric vs fighter::

Take a cleric in medium armor who deals holy damage vs. a fighter in heavy armor dealing physical damage.

From a post by Stephen Cheney we know that T3 armor which isn't specifically enchanted against a given energy type has 18 resistance. So let's assume 2/3 of that for T2, ie. 12 holy resistance. So the cleric's physical resistance scales with keywords against the fighter's damage while the fighter's holy resistance is a constant value independent of keywords.

Assume both are in T2 and have equal skill. Assume the fighter has 2000 hp and the cleric 1500. The fighter has a damage factor of 1.4. Let's assume the cleric has a damage factor of 1.3 since he'll be doing holy damage (lower damage factor since he's using a damage type that you need to specifically enchant against). Now assume that both have an equal number of offensive and defensive keywords. So they're roughly equal opponents.

Who has the advantage in terms of number of hits to kill eachother? Well, for 1,2,3 or 4 keywords the answer is that it's roughly equal. They take the same number of hits to kill eachother.

The system likely has more balance to it than might be apparent!

[Ryan Dancey]

Imbicatus wrote:

In order to craft quality equipment, the crafter will need to be in a player settlement that is outside of NPC areas.

Probably not corrct. You will probably need PC Settlement resources to access some keywords and use some materials, but you will probably be able to craft high quality stuff in NPC Settlements.

Quote:

The high quality equipment will not be readily available on the open market

I can't imagine why that would be true.

[Pax Morbis]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

In order to craft quality equipment, the crafter will need to be in a player settlement that is outside of NPC areas.

Probably not correct. You will probably need PC Settlement resources to access some keywords and use some materials, but you will probably be able to craft high quality stuff in NPC Settlements.

Is there a predicted reason for why crafters won't just live in NPC towns and have people ship resources in and out, then? One of the problems I have with EvE is that the null-sec empires can survive primarily by shipping resources down from high-sec. I was really looking forward to settlements being forced to have their crafters on site, and having real reason to protect them.

How are player owned market hubs going to compete with the completely safe NPC towns if the crafters aren't forced to live within those player owned hubs?

[Bringslite]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

In order to craft quality equipment, the crafter will need to be in a player settlement that is outside of NPC areas.

Probably not corrct. You will probably need PC Settlement resources to access some keywords and use some materials, but you will probably be able to craft high quality stuff in NPC Settlements.

Quote:

The high quality equipment will not be readily available on the open market

I can't imagine why that would be true.

Hmmm... The bombshell revelations just keep coming. Was the assumption that it would not be that way purely ours?

[Nightdrifter]

It depends what exactly Ryan means by "some keywords". If he means a handful of specific minor keywords that aren't necessary to craft top end gear, then it's a big deal. However, if he means you can't craft anything with major keywords (ie. T2/T3) then settlements will still want those top end crafters.

Crafting sounds like it's an EVE inspired system where you put the materials into a queue and it is made when it's your turn. So if no one left the safe starter settlements that queue could become ridiculously long. Out in player settlements that queue might be much shorter.

[Pax Pagan]

Bringslite wrote:

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

In order to craft quality equipment, the crafter will need to be in a player settlement that is outside of NPC areas.

Probably not corrct. You will probably need PC Settlement resources to access some keywords and use some materials, but you will probably be able to craft high quality stuff in NPC Settlements.

Quote:

The high quality equipment will not be readily available on the open market

I can't imagine why that would be true.

Hmmm... The bombshell revelations just keep coming. Was the assumption that it would not be that way purely ours?

While they hadnt explicitly said that crafting at high levels would be only available in player run settlements I think a lot of us felt this was implicit when they talked about DI affecting the quality of crafting buildings and how wars might damage their capability. I think many of us assumed that therefore there would be a good reason to actually therefore bother having crafting facilities.

If you truly want crafters to be second class citizens and be largely irrelevant to settlements I can think of no better way than emulating the mistake Eve made in making the NPC area industrial base so attractive that even the null sec alliance players felt it was beneficial to base their industrial alts there.

If I as a crafter can make everything in NPC towns I have no incentive to live in a player run settlement. Callambea has no reason to need me there in fact I can help them better by not basing myself there because then they don't need to use up valuable building plots on crafting facilities.

[Urman]

@Bringslight iirc, what GW might have said was that PC settlements will have the good training facilities - so to *use* an item with good keywords you need to belong to a PC settlement (or had training permissions in one). Players might have then made the leap to thinking crafting would be restricted to PC towns as well. Or some people(tm) wanted it to be that way and pushed it as a fact - that could have happened, too.

[Bringslite]

Well, I suppose that I won't get too excited about it until it is clarified a bit more. Taken at face value, I find it VERY disappointing and unimaginative. I certainly hope that they think it through a bit or explain why it would be better that way.

I am just one guy though.

[Imbicatus]

Bringslite wrote:

Well, I suppose that I won't get too excited about it until it is clarified a bit more. Taken at face value, I find it VERY disappointing and unimaginative. I certainly hope that they think it through a bit or explain why it would be better that way.

I am just one guy though.

Make that two guys.

[Bringslite]

Imbicatus wrote:

Bringslite wrote:

Well, I suppose that I won't get too excited about it until it is clarified a bit more. Taken at face value, I find it VERY disappointing and unimaginative. I certainly hope that they think it through a bit or explain why it would be better that way.

I am just one guy though.

Make that two guys.

Imagine that! We are disappointed because our assumptions may not pan out to be facts. :)

[Imbicatus]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

In order to craft quality equipment, the crafter will need to be in a player settlement that is outside of NPC areas.

Probably not corrct. You will probably need PC Settlement resources to access some keywords and use some materials, but you will probably be able to craft high quality stuff in NPC Settlements.

Okay, I must have really misinterpreted the info so far, because I though it was the intention to not allow the "high-sec industrialists" that are in eve. If you are able to craft high quality stuff in NPC areas, what is to stop the devaluing of crafters as is evidenced by this thread?

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Quote:

The high quality equipment will not be readily available on the open market

I can't imagine why that would be true

If high quality items can be made in NPC Settlements, and therefore not be a guarded commodity by the settlements that can make them, then yes, there is no reason for that to be true.