3 6 9 12 15 etc. Not to mention how you would afford it....
You can create a +5 weapon at level 5.
You need the Craft Magic arms and armor, 25000gp and a spellcraft/craft(weapon) DC 25.
Said in other terms, if you have the feat and +15 in spellcraft, you can do it.
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The "+5 to skip a prereq" is a specific exception to a general rule.
The "needs to be 3x the level" is also a specific exception to a general rule.
There's no rule saying which one trumps, but sanity suggests having +5 weapons at level three might be a bad thing.
Wealth by level guidelines are the only limiting factor here.
If you are playing a "Monty Haul" game where the characters are swimming in cash, yes you can do it.
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Actually, it has come up before... and answered in the FAQ.
As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.
Now the question is, does the +5 dc apply to the "whole" process or for each enhancement u are trying to bypass?
Is it +5dc to go from enhancement 1 to 5 or is it a +20dc to go fom 1 to 5?
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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The Spellcraft DCs are [i]supposed to be[i] easy to make. The real limiting factors on item creation are time and money, as they have always been.
In my experience, item crafters rarely make items inappropriate for their level because of money restrictions, and because high level items take months to make.
I would hazard a guess that a campaign where a level 5 wizard has 25,000gp and 50 days of free time is not the norm. Heck, many APs have downtime measured in days, possibly weeks, and that's total in a campaign that goes to level 15-17. And in several that do have decent downtime, the downtime is very frontloaded..here, have a year of downtime level 4 guys. Once you start getting decent money it's go go go.
While you can make a +2 sword from a +1 sword with a DC of 16, there is no reason that I am aware of as to why you have to make the +1 sword first. You could also just make a +2 sword.
It would make it much more likely that you fail at least one check if you had to check for every +.
You would have to do make mutiable rolls as an Item must be +1 before +2 and +2 before +3 ect. DC = caster level +5 add +5 if you don't have the caster level. Caster level for enchment bonus is 3x what ever the + is.
This is not true, nothing in the rules requires multiple checks to build up to an item. You make one roll, based on the final state of the item you're trying to create. If, later on, you wish to upgrade the item with new additional abilities, you then make another single check at the end of the necessary time. However, you can enchant a +5 weapon from scratch with a single check, and if you have a +2 sword to begin with, upgrade it to +5 with a single check.
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What remains, then, is if the -5 penalty applies no matter how many 'plusses' your level is shy of the requirement, or whether the penalty is -5 per 'plus' that the crafted is short.
I'm a 5th level caster. This means I can craft a +1 weapon. If I want to craft a +5 weapon, is the Spellcraft penalty -5 (for not being 15th level) or -20 (for not being 6th, 9th, 12th or 15th level)?
I believe the only point of it being +1 is that you cannot add special qualities to a non-magical weapon. I do not believe there is more than one craft check for a +1 keen weapon.
While there may be more AT RISK, it is less risk to create the entire weapon at once. This assumes "risk" = chance of failure and "at risk" = stuff lost upon failure.
I don't know the math, but I do know that it is easier to roll a 1 (not an auto fail in this case, I know) in five rolls than it is in one roll.
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You would just check the lack of a cl once. Nothing ij the rules checks multiple times. A +5 sword isn't a +1 +2 +3 +4 and +5 sword its just +5. In general I don't have an issue with the crafting ruled but always viewed the 3 6 9 12 15 rule for swords as a special exception to the general rule of avoiding rewuirements.
Making a +5 Sword can be done outright, and there are several subjects that support this.
Let's take a Specific Weapon, for example. Let's say we want to make a Frost Brand (+3 Greatsword with special properties) for our BSF so he can actually do his job right.
The Frost Brand can be created outright. Its requirements are Dispel Magic, Protection From Energy, Ice Storm, Craft Magic Arms/Armor, and 27,375 Gold Pieces.
The fact that it's a +3 Weapon proves that weapons with pluses only need one craft to reach it, not 2, or 3. or 20 (to add all the other properties as well).
For any GMs with any hesitation about early crafting, I strongly urge that you simply eliminate the ability to 'Take 10' on Spellcraft checks to make magic items. The system was frankly not built for it during the Beta playtest.
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If you have the money and enough spellcraft , you can do it.
Crafting and Bypassing Requirements: What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?
As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 02/22/13
Crafting and Take 10: Can I take 10 on the Spellcraft check to craft a magic item?
Yes.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 02/22/13
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The main thing this thread accomplishes is to brilliantly demonstrate how insane the magic item creation rules are.
Not really as the rules only allow you to make the items. You can't use ten wands at the same time or activate all your items as a free action. Again you will be taxed by actions and move equivalent actions. And I believe that the rules specifically stated that the inverted requirements may be waved at a +5 penalty per requirement but the normal print requirements must be met.
Page 462 states that the enhancement bonus and a special ability bonus must be met for the highest bonus. So a weapon with the +1 bonus and a +1 equivalent enhancement may be made at a caster level of 3!!!! So anyone with the craft arms and armor feat and a rank in classbased skill of spellcraft will be able to pull it off.
The main problem is money and time. And that's a problem any GM can solve easily. Just limit money and downtime, just as you would limit any other recource available to the players. And remember, that it's not strange for a level 5 character to own a +1 weapon or maybe even a +2.
People are getting hung up about 5th level and +5 swords. That's just an extreme example. More likely, you 7th level fighter has about 23,000gp earned through the game. Now Let's say he makes the trades necessary to spend 13,000 of that just on a single item, that's not unlikely.
He can thus already afford a +5 Full Plate, which combined with other items can give him so high AC no monsters of CR 8 can hit him.
Or he could possibly invest in a +4 Weapon instead (spending more of his WBL), and thus bypass almost all kinds of damage reduction. And really, Im not even touching on how to abuse this. Not at all.
RAW is RAW.
If any GM think there is an abuse , then they can balance it. But it does not change the fact that , RAW allows it.
Problem is money and spellcraft , if you have enough of both , you can do it lvl 1 or lvl 5 ...
To me it makes perfect sense , thus is valid , others seem to think it is a problem , so they have to change it in their games.
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I haven't even bothered with take 10. In my current game, with admittedly high stats, I ended up with a spellcraft of +18 at 8th level, so I could automatically make at least a 19. If I'm limited to CL 8 items (which I was), that means the first +5 modifier from a missing prerequisite is automatic. Add in a valet familiar and crafter's fortune, and that's another +7 right there, and progress is already doubled, and... well, basically, it just gets worse from there. I think the character's currently got +32 spellcraft at level 16, so with the familiar and crafter's fortune, that's a 40 with a natural 1. Taking 10 is not a major factor here. :) (Disclaimer: GM gave us a non-standard point buy option, so the character's starting int was a 22 after racial mods. But ultimately, that's just a +1 on spellcraft checks for my purposes...
The target is struck by inspiration and gains a +5 luck bonus on its next Craft skill check.
Note: Craft =/= Spellcraft. No +5 from that spell. :-(
/cevah
For any GMs with any hesitation about early crafting, I strongly urge that you simply eliminate the ability to 'Take 10' on Spellcraft checks to make magic items. The system was frankly not built for it during the Beta playtest.
This is just plain incorrect. The design team has specifically stated their intent on this. I prefer housing a more interesting system myself, but I don't pretend that the system is broken just because of personal preference either.
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A lot of GMs make CL requirements hard and fast. I am actually in agreement with this for the most part.. but RAW you really don't need much to craft.
The crafting system generally is pretty bad. The time periods are awful.. the whole premise is a bit wonky. The things that I would like to see crafted (for rp purposes) are things like a wizards staff... and yet no one seems to take craft staff.
Craft wonderous item covers 90% of items...
I'm not sure how I would address crafting personally, but I know that the current system is deeply flawed. Honestly, I think it would be fine to pay nearly full price for crafting, cut the time required down to a single day, and just let crafting feats be a way to get the items you actually want.
The half price thing tosses WBL out the window. Do you lower WBL because the PCs craft? Its been suggested but then what does the feat really do for them?
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The main thing this thread accomplishes is to brilliantly demonstrate how insane the magic item creation rules are.
I don't see a problem with it.
It's pretty much impossible in a normal game for a level 5 PC to do it due to the wealth requirements unless the GM is giving them WAAAAAAY too much money.
Meanwhile, this means it's possible for a skilled 5th level NPC item crafter to make that +5 sword you want and cuts down on the "15th level janitor" issue that crops up with these sort of restrictions.
The main thing this thread accomplishes is to brilliantly demonstrate how insane the magic item creation rules are.I don't see a problem with it.
It's pretty much impossible in a normal game for a level 5 PC to do it due to the wealth requirements unless the GM is giving them WAAAAAAY too much money.
Meanwhile, this means it's possible for a skilled 5th level NPC item crafter to make that +5 sword you want and cuts down on the "15th level janitor" issue that crops up with these sort of restrictions.
Finally someone who understood the most basic thing.
I guess most people just dont realise that means each and every NPC also needs the CL.
Funny right? All those lvl 15+ NPCs openning shops?
Then again , this is only one of the silly restrictions people put over the system. I dont even waste time discussing this anymore. Just make SURE to tell the PCs what you are changing in the system, if you are even allowing it.
Oh and word to the wise , dont try to fool the player taking WBL , chances are the player will notice and wil ask for the gold to be divided equalily even counting items. This will be freaking annoying for your PCs most likely and will actually affect the guys who cant craft the most.
Well there was even a point where SKR said that a character with a craft feat generated at mid level should only count items he could craft as 1/2 cost. Justifying this by saying that this was only fair since they took the feat.
The problem is that wealth = power, and effectively doubling a group's wealth by taking a feat is a bit silly.
Well there was even a point where SKR said that a character with a craft feat generated at mid level should only count items he could craft as 1/2 cost. Justifying this by saying that this was only fair since they took the feat.
The problem is that wealth = power, and effectively doubling a group's wealth by taking a feat is a bit silly.
Unless you are playing really slowly (with lots of downtime) , you dont double the group power level.
You mostly doubles a guy (usually the person crafts first what he needs , then things for the rest of the group) and you increase the power of other deppending on how much time the guy got. Eventually it takes a LOT of time to get 1 item ready , if one person is making items for a whole party ... well that becomes maybe even 1 year or more of the PCs doing nothing other than crafts if they are waiting.
It is a strong feat , so if the GM wants to change it , go ahead, maybe even say players cant take it.
What i find really annoying is when a GM says it is OK , but then begin to change the rules mid game and make it hell to use. If the GM does not want to deal with it , cut it off.
Making really silly changes and annoying a PC over it is the problem.
Well once you are high enough level, you just pop off into your timeless Demi-Plane and craft away.
Lord_Malkov, Ive pointed this out before and I will point it out again. (And Im sure someone will denounce it again.)
Only the crafter benefits from crafting feats by counting his crafted cost towards WBL guidelines. The rest of the party counts the full price towards WBL guidelines.
Assume the party has 20,000gp in coin and 4 players.
Assume that this puts them at WBL for the group.
Example 1:
The wizard crafts his 5000gp share into 10,000gp worth of items. He has only 5000gp worth of equipment (the crafted cost) counted against WBL.
The rest of the party purchases their equipment normally. They have the 5,000gp per person you intended for them to have and are
Example 2:
The wizard crafts not only his 5000gp share but the entire party's shares into 40,000gp worth of equipment.
The WBL is now at 5000gp for the wizard and 10,000gp for each of the other players. Total: 35,000gp.
The group is now 15,000gp over and the GM will need to cut future rewards to balance it out.
It is a pain for the GM to constantly try to maintain WBL when one person is crafting (at half) for the group. As a result I either ask for a gentlemens agreement from the party to not craft at cost for each other or I use a house rule where crafted items are bonded to the crafter unless you pay price (not cost) for the item.
- Gauss
Well once you are high enough level, you just pop off into your timeless Demi-Plane and craft away.
hehe well , by the time they get this the magic items are not what you are worring the wizard will use.
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My problems with a fifth level caster making a +5 Holy Avenger isn't about game balance. It's about game verisimilitude. In my opinion it makes no sense for someone to be able to create magic items that are far more powerful than the magic they can wield themselves. Period.
As far as the idea that you would need an army of 15th level janitors in the game, that seems silly to me. How many +5 Holy Avengers do you have in your games? I'll tell you right now that in my 35 year old gaming world, there might be TWO. And those would have been made by extremely powerful casters.
The thing that I don't get is the people arguing that it makes sense for fifth level casters to be able to make pretty much any magic item in the game see "makes sense" a whole lot differently than I do. Sure a PC following WBL guidelines is going to have trouble making powerful magic stuff, but the world would be flooded with them because every rich noble in the world would be hiring low level casters to make rings of 3 wishes or whatever. Unless the world is somehow lacking in gold or other means of wealth, super high powered magic items are gong to be in every noble's home in the world. That makes sense?
Anyway, I don't care that much, it just strikes me as a very poor bit of game design is all. Carry on with your conversation and I'll just shake my head about it over here in the corner.
Adamantine Dragon, there is a lot of mythology about non-magical craftsmen who make extremely powerful magic items. This is represented by a feat in Pathfinder. So, if non-magical craftsman can make magic items above his power level why can't a magical craftsman do so with enough time, skill, and effort?
- Gauss
Remember Adamantine Dragon that a GM may always rule that he does not agree on an item being made. My GM never allows me to make anything he does not aprove of. So even though the rules explain that it might be possible, the rules also explain the GM may apply balance whenever he needs to. Also a level 5 character with a +5holy avenger will attract a lot of attention of certain bad guys who definetly do not want him hold on to that. It will be like taking candy from a baby, as he cannot have gotten hold of +5 full plate as well. And it's nothing a few magi with magic missile(s),fireballs and a couple of acid arrows won't fix. Or a nice pit trap: Sure I will help you get out, but I cannot lift you and your equipment so hand over your equipment and then I will lift you out. You do not agree???? Well let's see how long you last with out food. Guys place the grate above the pit and start creating water. Really the possibilities are endless.
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The Crafty Crafter
"Here's a chest full of gold. Be a good chap, and craft me a ring of three wishes, would you?"
"Yes m'lord."
(A few weeks later:)
"Is it finished yet?"
"Yes, m'lord. I'm wearing it now. I wish you'd forget you paid me to make it."
"...Ah, you're that crafting fellow, aren't you? If I give you a chest full of gold, will you craft me a ring of three wishes?"
Adamantine Dragon, there is a lot of mythology about non-magical craftsmen who make extremely powerful magic items. This is represented by a feat in Pathfinder. So, if non-magical craftsman can make magic items above his power level why can't a magical craftsman do so with enough time, skill, and effort?
- Gauss
Aegis-Fang and all that.
Lord_Malkov, Ive pointed this out before and I will point it out again. (And Im sure someone will denounce it again.)
Well, SKR did. Enough for me. :=)
Only the crafter benefits from crafting feats by counting his crafted cost towards WBL guidelines. The rest of the party counts the full price towards WBL guidelines.
Assume the party has 20,000gp in coin and 4 players.
Assume that this puts them at WBL for the group.Example 1:
The wizard crafts his 5000gp share into 10,000gp worth of items. He has only 5000gp worth of equipment (the crafted cost) counted against WBL.
The rest of the party purchases their equipment normally. They have the 5,000gp per person you intended for them to have and areExample 2:
The wizard crafts not only his 5000gp share but the entire party's shares into 40,000gp worth of equipment.
The WBL is now at 5000gp for the wizard and 10,000gp for each of the other players. Total: 35,000gp.
The group is now 15,000gp over and the GM will need to cut future rewards to balance it out.
Math error. Wizard has 10,000gp value as well. The initial 20,000gp is still all they have because if they sold their crafted stuff, that is all they would get. Also, loot drops are only counted as what they can be sold for, not their purchase price.
It is a pain for the GM to constantly try to maintain WBL when one person is crafting (at half) for the group. As a result I either ask for a gentlemens agreement from the party to not craft at cost for each other or I use a house rule where crafted items are bonded to the crafter unless you pay price (not cost) for the item.
- Gauss
Changing what treasure you drop will not change WBL as it can be sold for gold and then crafted. I think the only way you can deny the crafter the fruit of his feat investment is to cut the WBL for the entire party. Something that has its own drawbacks.
It is also a pain to GM with a party with some or all characters highly optimized, as they can easily handle CRs higher than standard. Higher point buy does this also. As WBL is a guideline and not a rule, I don't worry about it unless my character's wealth is less than half WBL.
It is also a pain to deal with a party that is clueless, as they keep getting killed by level appropriate CR critters. Whatever way the party leans, the GM's job is to challenge what the characters can do by tweaking the encounter to them. The GM does a good job if the players have fun. Does not matter if the encounter is a cakewalk or near TPK. If the players had fun, the encounter worked.
Given your expressed notions, I think the best solution is to allow full crafting benefit for all the party, and use adventures one or two levels higher instead.
/cevah
Well once you are high enough level, you just pop off into your timeless Demi-Plane and craft away.Huh. I didn't think timeless worked that way. I did get a double-time demiplane for crafting, though.
Timeless won't let you regain spells since no time passed locally. Not usefull for crafting. Double time ages you faster because you spend so much time crafting there. In 2e, you were not limited to 2*, and you could get 10*, 100*, and more. Not sure if that is doable in PF. Go in, come out seconds later aged several years but with an awesome magic item. Hope you had something to do while you rested, as well as have some source of food. Magic to keep you from aging would also help.
/cevah
Take 10 side discussion:
For any GMs with any hesitation about early crafting, I strongly urge that you simply eliminate the ability to 'Take 10' on Spellcraft checks to make magic items. The system was frankly not built for it during the Beta playtest.This is just plain incorrect. The design team has specifically stated their intent on this. I prefer housing a more interesting system myself, but I don't pretend that the system is broken just because of personal preference either.
It is not "incorrect". The design team has specifically ruled on it, but the intent and discussion during the Playtest did not take "Take 10" into account. It was designed as a fairly automatic check if you met all the requirements, had full ranks in spellcraft, and didn't craft anything of higher CL than yours, then risks and rewards for going beyond that, or being better than that base assumption (high int, skill focus, etc.). [ooc=http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2j1f8&page=1?Magic-Item-Addendum-Is-Live]Read the thread[/url] (I think that's the right one).
Taking 10 on item creation obliterates all the interesting mechanics (failure chance, curse chance). If you can't make the craft check on a roll of 10, what are the odds that you're going to risk trying to craft the item in the first place?
As for the 16th level Wizard with +32 Spellcraft being able to make almost any item... what could be more appropriate!?
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Regardless of the cost and down time requirements, it would be game breaking and therefore undesirable most of the time for low level characters to run around with high level items like that. Barring a mythic game, this smacks of Monty Haul. I am more and more of the opinion that the crafting rules are not getting any better and are still seriously in need of overhaul.
Kingmaker is one specific game setting where this would be a huge problem. PCs have extensive time and resources available to them, and this would not be difficult in the slightest to end up with +5 everthing at very low level. 20 BP is 80k gold, thats not hard to come up with once your kingdom gets going.