Goblin Squad Member
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@ Bringslite
If you are referring to this exchange, I believe you are making the same misinterpretation as Nihimon did.
So Xeen, once the game starts and has a cash shop, you sticking around? Or quitting? Just curious, because you don't seem to agree cash shops are a place where companies can, or should make money..This line of questioning is no different than if I asked someone "if PFO turns out to be a "Murder Simulator" like many of the other Open World PvP MMOs , is that a deal breaker for you?"
I thought we were supposed to have moved on from such questions.
I was not asking the question, I was comparing to the question to a hypothetical question that would be equally outside of the spirit in which the "new tone" of the forums was supposed to be.
I'll be more specific, were we not to bring up others "quitting" or encouraging others not to try the game out? Or is that only an issue when some people do it, and not others?
Actually I was ignoring your earlier post from today, as well as Hardin's later one. It just occurred to me that your earlier post had irritated me a bit also.
So, I read this:
@ Xeen,
Waste not your anger on those who need to purchase their advantages or those that call upon the Gods for mechanics to protect them. Neither store bought items nor the supposed consequences will protect them from those that rely on team work, individual prowess and an eagerness for conflict.
It bothered me for reasons explained above.
Then I read this:
So Xeen, once the game starts and has a cash shop, you sticking around? Or quitting? Just curious, because you don't seem to agree cash shops are a place where companies can, or should make money.Edit: Even though Ryan clearly showed all of us there are many players that want to spend more than the monthly sub fee on items that are not pay to win?
And even though you know there will be a cash shop. Consider me entertained.
Neither one is really related or equal in the way that they bothered me.
I did not like either one but went about my day. Then I read this:
This line of questioning is no different than if I asked someone "if PFO turns out to be a "Murder Simulator" like many of the other Open World PvP MMOs , is that a deal breaker for you?"I thought we were supposed to have moved on from such questions.
It really is all going in circles now. My point was that you seemed, to me to write antagonistic things yourself. To me, it seems kind of a case of the pot calling the kettle black and may very well have to do with an attitude (of mine) developed from reading many of your previous posts. Niether you or Xeen have always been the very pleasant fellows that you have turned out to be now. Who could have known? That is not to say, a defensible attitude that I have, nor do I consider it a good one.
So, because of the above, I offer my apologies to you Bluddwolf for letting previous things cloud my attitude and skew my perceptions.
As for what we are to do about anyone's posts or opinions, I think (as I wrote above) that we should all just write what we feel or think in as nice a way as we can. It might help if we were to try to not write things that are meant as insult. It might also help to admit it when we do and apologize.
That really is all that inspired my post.
That is just an opinion though.
It is not necessary to agree with anyone or to be overly sweet in disagreeing. Nothing is necessary.
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Goblin Squad Member
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thread now useless
It has been
Ill never agree MTX is good for gaming...
Youll never agree MTX is bad for gaming...
If its implemented well then good, if not then bad.
I am excited to play PFO. I think the MTX shops are a short term way to make money and in the long run will destroy the MMO market... but I could be wrong as the millenials want everything handed to them.
I could care less what the Asians are doing... I think Pay to Win destroys the concept of gaming...
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. Talking pricing with customer(s) = emotional rocket fuel.
2. When talk breaks down to "talk about how to talk" = thread is useless
3. Pouring a bucket of hot water into the sea to warm it is no good; you have to wait to Summer for the sea to warm up.
4. There is relevant information available for strong intellectual discussion but emotional appeal is more entertaining.
5. Form a union once the sandbox devolves more towards players.
6. Competitive games require zero RMT1 P2W input. RMT2 is probably ok up to a point and doubly so if it reduces RMT3.
C'mon y'all we are better than this.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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How could have this newest offending post been better delivered? Is mildly inflamatory unacceptable? Is there any way Xeen or Bluddwolf could have their opinions and desires shared at all?I am serious about the last point. Is there any way a poster can take a position counter to another poster, be passionate in their position, and have it shared in any manner at all without being considered a detriment?
Responding to your question, but offering a pattern of behavior rather than the single case (quoting a block in it's entirety to preserve context):
@ Xeen,
Waste not your anger on those who need to purchase their advantages or those that call upon the Gods for mechanics to protect them. Neither store bought items nor the supposed consequences will protect them from those that rely on team work, individual prowess and an eagerness for conflict.
@Bluddwolf Here is a post by you Bludd, just today that could be considered antagonistic, inflammatory, and an incorrect representation of those that accept that there will be a cash shop.
I also thought that we were trying, at least, to get past all the BS and do some constructive things here.
Your accusation makes no sense, and has no foundation in anything I wrote. I did not characterize anything about those who will accept that there will be a cash shop. I know there will be a cash shop, and I would probably even buy things from it.
What I was telling Xeen was that I do not believe that any item bought for the shop would outweigh what one can gain from team work, individual prowess and an eagerness to engage in conflict.
If that is inflammatory antagonism, your perception is beyond reason.
Personally, I believe that it should be trivial to see that this pattern of behavior is needlessly antagonistic. However, I have in the past been very wrong about what is obvious, so I'll go over the addition in detail.
>Your accusation makes no sense
This could stand as a thesis, if there were an elaboration of specific flaws or internal inconsistencies or some other backup for what it means to 'make no sense'. As it is, it's namecalling.
>[Your accusation] has no foundation in anything I wrote.
This is a thesis which might be supported by the following claims;
> I did not characterize anything about those who will accept that there will be a cash shop. I know there will be a cash shop, and I would probably even buy things from it.
These are claims of a factual nature, which provide nonzero support to the thesis.
> What I was telling Xeen was that I do not believe that any item bought for the shop would outweigh what one can gain from team work, individual prowess and an eagerness to engage in conflict.
More claims of a factual nature, which provide similar support to the thesis.
> If that is inflammatory antagonism, your perception is beyond reason.
And we're back to namecalling.
There's two instances of namecalling, directed specifically at things other than the person, because namecalling the person is not tolerated, but namecalling a position or characteristic is, diluted by a single assertion which has questionable factual support.
As a single post, I would have to consider that substandard, but above the threshold for sanction. However, I see it as further evidence of a pattern of behavior which I believe is toxic. That post could easily have contained all of the expository content without either of the namecalling clauses.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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thread now uselessIt has been
Ill never agree MTX is good for gaming...
Youll never agree MTX is bad for gaming...
If its implemented well then good, if not then bad.
I am excited to play PFO. I think the MTX shops are a short term way to make money and in the long run will destroy the MMO market... but I could be wrong as the millenials want everything handed to them.
I could care less what the Asians are doing... I think Pay to Win destroys the concept of gaming...
I think I see a false equivalence here:
I have not seen anybody make the claim here that Pay-to-win is good for anybody outside of the Asian market. In fact, lots of evidence has been presented that in Western markets, Pay-to-win is a strategy executed almost exclusively by failing or shrinking games.
I think that Pay-to-win is what you mean is "a short term way to make money and in the long run will destroy..".
I don't think that all MTX is pay-to-win, and you indicate here that you don't believe that there is a difference between a game with MTX and a game which is pay-to-win.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I see it as further evidence of a pattern of behavior which I believe is toxic
Fixed that for you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I see it as further evidence of a pattern of behavior which I believe is toxicFixed that for you.
Of course, we also don't want to be Overprotected.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Decius:
I disagree that the quoted portion is trivially antagonistic. I read the message as a call for Xeen to chill out. It holds a strong opinion that winning against an opponent in pvp who has purchased an advantage is indicative of a higher skill level. I could agree that the point itself is trivial, as winning against any opponent in pvp could be indicative of a higher player skill (or perhaps tactics, numbers, etc etc).
Bluddwolf and Nihimon:
Somehow the fact that we are still talking about this saddens me less because of the Spears linking. Thanks for the giggles both of you.
I don't want to frame anyone's position, but I do want to say I enjoyed that Nihimon chose overprotected in his reply. In the end that we are even talking about this is a derail of the thread. I am derailing this thread by even replying to these points.
So I will stop now. Ryan has a good point, we are steam rolling a thread that might have some merit.
On OP:
I am not a fan of purchased items that give any advantage over a regular subscriber, however trivial. I am less concerned with cosmetics or fluff purchased in a store. The same can be said of PLEX in Eve, I actually think it is smart to control the vehicle that a player uses to sell in game effort to other players.
That said I am also less concerned if the mechanical benefit items in a MTX store are minimal value, or that the same items can be bought from other players. One of my primary concerns is how a MTX could effect an in game economy. I would prefer as little to be offered in enhancements to be purchases in a real money store, and for that void to be filled by player merchants in game.
Outside of that I am less concerned with MTX stores. Most western games have them to some degree. What concerns me is where the needle sets.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would remind everyone that you can send people PRIVATE messages and I would suggest that the last page or two could have been avoided by the judicious use of said ability.
To get back on topic
There is nothing inherently wrong with a cash shop.
Some of the items that could potentially show up in a cash shop might be troublesome and GW has said they will not put those items in the shop.
Now, it comes down to a personal choice you all have to make, do you trust Ryan Dancy & Goblinworks or don't you?
As a brief reminder of ancient history I once compared Ryan to a used car salesman and then retracted the statement as too insulting to a used car salesman so I don't exactly have the best history of trust in these people.
Having said that I would like to state unequivocally that I have complete and utter trust in there statement that they will never intentionally put anything pay to win in the cash shop.
What I DON'T trust is there understanding of what the player base might consider pay to win and that's what this discussion might be better served, a calm, CIVILIZED discussion crowdforging our feelings and ideas as to what is and isn't pay to win, with the understanding and acceptance that there will be a cash shop and we need to make it the best damn cash shop the world has ever seen, not bicker and fight over weather we should, or shouldn't have a cash shop.
One example that was brought up was healing potions with at least one person thinking they were pay to win.
Are they or aren't they?
My answer would be, It depends...
If healing potions with the same stats are readily available in game and the cash shop can't be used to over-ride in game mechanics, such as sieges & blockades, to give one side in pvp an advantage then nope, there not pay to win.
If they are better then player made, something else GW has said won't happen with the cash shop and something I also believe, or can be used to circumvent in game mechanics and strategy, which I strongly believe also won't happen, it would provide far to many negatives in player retention I believe to outweigh the bonus, then they would be pay to win.
fancy hats and textures for items, not pay to win, though I would be quite annoyed if the base game only came with an extremely limited selection and the only good looking items and textures were cash only.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One example that was brought up was healing potions with at least one person thinking they were pay to win.
Are they or aren't they?
My answer would be, It depends...
If healing potions with the same stats are readily available in game and the cash shop can't be used to over-ride in game mechanics, such as sieges & blockades, to give one side in pvp an advantage then nope, there not pay to win.
If they are better then player made, something else GW has said won't happen with the cash shop and something I also believe, or can be used to circumvent in game mechanics and strategy, which I strongly believe also won't...
It is feasible that healing potions could present a marked advantage, if they allow an organization to trade real money to avoid having to expend that same in game cash during large conflicts.
That would be contingent on healing potions in a MTX store to be scaled at least as much as in game potions. It would also rely on those potions to be purchasable in enough quantity to supersede the in game cost, as well as being inexpensive enough to justify the decision on an organizational level.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One example that was brought up was healing potions with at least one person thinking they were pay to win.
Are they or aren't they?
My answer would be, It depends...
If healing potions with the same stats are readily available in game and the cash shop can't be used to over-ride in game mechanics, such as sieges & blockades, to give one side in pvp an advantage then nope, there not pay to win.
If they are better then player made, something else GW has said won't happen with the cash shop and something I also believe, or can be used to circumvent in game mechanics and strategy, which I strongly believe also won't...
It is feasible that healing potions could present a marked advantage, if they allow an organization to trade real money to avoid having to expend that same in game cash during large conflicts.
That would be contingent on healing potions in a MTX store to be scaled at least as much as in game potions. It would also rely on those potions to be purchasable in enough quantity to supersede the in game cost, as well as being inexpensive enough to justify the decision on an organizational level.
As I said, if they can be used as you describe to circumvent sieges and blockades, then yes I would consider them pay 2 win.
So, how could this be implemented so they can't be used that way and would they be useful if they were or is this potential use if they can't be prevented from being used that way be sufficient reason for GW to not include them in the store?
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I said, if they can be used as you describe to circumvent sieges and blockades, then yes I would consider them pay 2 win.
So, how could this be implemented so they can't be used that way and would they be useful if they were or is this potential use if they can't be prevented from being used that way be sufficient reason for GW to not include them in the store?
I would say if the healing potions capped out at a low-mid range then the chance it would be used for mechanical advantage would be obliterated on the large scale at least.
Another way would be to have them expensive enough to make them a terrible investment when bought in bulk.
Yet another could possibly be a use timer on MTX healing potions. No matter how many you have, you trigger a global cool down that player made potions have less of.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I said, if they can be used as you describe to circumvent sieges and blockades, then yes I would consider them pay 2 win.
So, how could this be implemented so they can't be used that way and would they be useful if they were or is this potential use if they can't be prevented from being used that way be sufficient reason for GW to not include them in the store?
I would say if the healing potions capped out at a low-mid range then the chance it would be used for mechanical advantage would be obliterated on the large scale at least.
Another way would be to have them expensive enough to make them a terrible investment when bought in bulk.
Yet another could possibly be a use timer on MTX healing potions. No matter how many you have, you trigger a global cool down that player made potions have less of.
Another option would be to make them unbuyable if your settlement was at war or under siege/blockade within the last week or so to prevent you from breaking the siege for 5 minutes and buying a few thousand potions.
Keep in mind, we don't know for sure if potions are going to be all that powerful, if for example you have an hour long cooldown they can get you out of a really bad situation once maybe, but not be game changing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What's absolutely known for sure us for the cost if training an extra character, I can start training up an alchemist alt who could focus on nothing but making the absolute best healing potions a player can craft. I can also buy training time with real money and sell it for game money with which I can buy items, mercenaries, services, whatever I want.
This game already has a large element of pay to win that's going to be in it for sure, and is really... unavoidable.
I'm honestly not that concerned about items with mechanical value being sold. They'll have to be pretty amazing to be better than the pay to win options already available to us.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some of the items that could potentially show up in a cash shop might be troublesome and GW has said they will not put those items in the shop.
+ eleventy billion
... do you trust Ryan Dancy & Goblinworks...?
Well, do ya? Punk? (apologies)
... crowdforging our feelings and ideas as to what is and isn't pay to win...
This is exactly the spirit of the OP. Thanks for bringing it back around.
My own personal feeling is that anything that is comparable to something that is "readily available" in the player market is fair game, but that only a select few such items should ever be available at one time. I don't think it's reasonable to expect the Cash Shop to have zero impact on the player market, but I do think it's realistic to expect that impact to remain "very low". Likewise, I think that anything that is not readily available on the player market (or functionally similar to same) should not be fair game; this would rule out lockbox keys unless those could also be crafted by players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agree with Nihimon's sentiment, only additionally including that things that cannot be crafted but don't offer mechanical edges (skins for items/pets/structures, special particle effects, etc) would be fair game to me.
The problem here is that, through one method or another, player cash is going to be convertible into game currency. In a trade/resource-based sandbox game, game currency will equate at least somewhat into winning. Thus if you make a sandbox game with a focus on trade, a certain degree of pay2win is inevitable. In the case of PLEX/cash shops I see it as putting the money in the hands of the devs instead of gold farmers/unscrupulous RMT dealers, thus keeping the game alive and putting a lot less people at risk of fraud and other nasty real-world business.
I think the cash shop itself will be very hard pressed to be pay2win if you make the "exchange rate" for craftable cash shop items marginally worse than the exchange rate for Goblin Balls. This would turn the cash shop into cosmetics and convenience only, as those who want to make their cash go farther will buy Goblin Balls to sell, then use the game currency to buy whatever item they need. That would, in my opinion, definitely take the teeth out of the scary Cash Shop Monster.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My own personal feeling is that anything that is comparable to something that is "readily available" in the player market is fair game, but that only a select few such items should ever be available at one time. I don't think it's reasonable to expect the Cash Shop to have zero impact on the player market, but I do think it's realistic to expect that impact to remain "very low". Likewise, I think that anything that is not readily available on the player market (or functionally similar to same) should not be fair game; this would rule out lockbox keys unless those could also be crafted by players.
The only caveat to the "readily available" would be if as mentioned before there were certain circumstances where items could be made not readily available in a local market, say during a settlement siege or blockade during settlement wars, whereby the cash shop shouldn't be useable to replace or restock those items easily using real money to defeat the purpose of the siege or blockade.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Cash shop should not compete with market items -- ever!.
If I am crafting heal potions, any cash shop sale waters my market. THe only way to adjust that is the items must be bought off the player market to sell on the cash market. The cash price should vary with character location just as the in game market. The purchase (gelb to supply cash market) should be from crafters close to player character purchase.
Things that are not yet available in the craft market must have high premium on cash market, or not available. If potions are 50 gelb per level on market, then items not available on market should have a cash price at 150 gelb. -- limited to 2 levels higher than what is locally available.(I do not know what gelb to cash rate is, but market will). And Market (local) should see offer of geld for unavailable item ( to encourage craters to produce item). Note, 3x cash and how many levels higher are subject to crowd forging and are only exemplars.
Market should not sell any item more that two (one!) levels above what is in the market. Buying (cash) what market (gelb) can not supply, may be Pay to Win.
lam
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree, as do (I think) everyone else and the developers, that the cash shop shouldn't sell items that are higher level than what is very easily attainable through player crafting. Ryan has said that it will be low-level items in the cash shop.
I expect that the market for low level potions will be so massive in comparison to the number of low level potion purchases in the cash shop that there won't be any appreciable dilution and price drop.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Cash shop should not compete with market items -- ever!.
If I am crafting heal potions, any cash shop sale waters my market.
I don't have a problem with the rest of your post, but wanted to ask about this part of it.
If the players *know* that certain items, like some types of healing potions, are available in practically unlimited supply from the cash market... Wouldn't it make sense for players to either offer their wares at a competitive price, provide a better product, or provide a different product? Maybe an alchemist can sell in bulk to a militant company that foresees a need for healing potions, lots of healing potions. Likewise for other trades that have some goods in the cash shop.
It's just a course hazard. We know about it and can adjust our strategies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Cash shop should not compete with market items -- ever!.
I definitely understand the sentiment and am myself wary of cash shops. If required at all, I actually wish they would just let us exchange RL money for in-game gold...and let us buy goods on the in-game market and meta-valuables like our subscriptions with that in-game gold. Then, pay to win actually only means make some in game player merchant/crafter rich.
As for the cosmetic stuff, again, just let us pay in-game gold. But here is where I must differ from Lam's statement. I (selfishly) wish all items purchasable in the store were also craftable, even if prohibitively so.
This said, my personal expenses will probably be limited to my one character's training...and maybe some cosmetic pets for my wife...but I am here for the community, and I can enjoy that no matter what others are buying. I understand the arguments Mr. Dancey is making and respect that he knows more about his job than I do.
(Also for the record, I agree with Bluddwolf that no amount of pay-to-win will replace good teamwork and a proper mindset to get a job done...so for me it is not worth worrying about; I intend to be part of a good team.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I definitely understand the sentiment and am myself wary of cash shops. I actually wish they would just let us exchange RL money for in-game gold...and let us buy goods on the in-game market and meta-valuables like our subscriptions with that in-game gold. Then, pay to win actually only means make some in game player merchant/crafter rich.
They are letting you exchange RL money for in-game gold through the Goblin Balls system (basically buying and selling training time). If the purchase price for items in the cash shop was slightly more expensive than buying Balls and then trading, would that allay your concern for the cash shop? Basically, you'll have some people scoffing at the cash shop because it's "less bang for your buck" and thus never use it, and some who think the convenience is worth the added cost.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If required at all, I actually wish they would just let us exchange RL money for in-game gold...
I think that would cause significant inflation, since you're basically opening an uncontrolled Coin Faucet. At least, that's what I understand from Ryan's various explanations of Goblin Balls.
[Edit] It's important to remember that you'll only be able to sell Goblin Balls for in-game Coin that other players have already earned, and the price will be set by the market rather than being a static amount.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I definitely understand the sentiment and am myself wary of cash shops. If required at all, I actually wish they would just let us exchange RL money for in-game gold...and let us buy goods on the in-game market and meta-valuables like our subscriptions with that in-game gold. Then, pay to win actually only means make some in game player merchant/crafter rich.
That's effectively what PLEX is, and it's been confirmed PFO will have PLEX by another name.
You buy an in-game tradeable item that grants training time when used, and you buy it with real money. People generally trade it for in-game currency.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@the 3 replys above...I understand that. Just more middle step/middle men then I would have in my uneducated "ideal" system. If as you say it is the same...why bother? And agreed about the inflation...I do not see how to avoid that with the system proposed. But, I am not looking for a debate, the only important part for me was the wish everything was craftable.
EDIT: My concern goes both ways, I want to be able to make everything as a crafter (selfish and unexpected to be fulfilled). But, more importantly, I do not like the fact that in-game merchants are cut out of the loop. What if everything bought in the store had to be "applied" to something in-game crafted? Healing potions bought in the store have to be "applied" to some generic base stock potions crafted by an alchemist in-game. Your sword of awesomeness skin#2 has to "applied" to a base sword of awesomeness as crafted by a master blacksmith...etc...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, the short reply to that is, we don't exactly know how it will work yet, so we don't know to what extent cash shop items will or will not require another component to function. I highly doubt that basic healing potions bought in the cash shop would need another middle step involving a crafter before they functioned; if you had direct access to a potion crafter why buy the potions from the cash shop at all?
However, I could see most item skins requiring a base item to apply them to; this would be optional methods to customize high-end items, and would make it so the store keeps good to the "low end items only" promise but still lets you apply that awesome skin to your super magical bastard sword you just bought off some merchant. The exception I would include would be if you had an option of getting the skin applied to some shop-spawned lowest-tier base weapon, useful only as an ornament instead of as a combat weapon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If items purchased from the in-game store must be delivered by mail, and mail is stopped when in a siege state, then many problems could be resolved.
Such a mechanic might bring viability to blockade running and the strategic advantages of building on navigable waterways.
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There should be absolutely no ability to mail items within game, mail should it exist at all should be restricted to text only missives between players. Allowing the mailing of items would so fundamentally break the market localism that is aimed for that it would negate the need to travel.
I am fully for the not selling anything at all that can be player crafted in the store. There is absolutely no need for it whatsoever and it impacts upon the player market in too many ways for it to be good. There are plenty of things that can be sold without having to stoop to competing with crafters.
Crafting and gathering are as valid a playstyle as pve or pvp and I am sure folk would be unhappy if for instance you could hire an assassin from the cash shop instead of a player or get a player shop bought party to deal with that escalation instead of hiring some brave player adventurers.
A cash shop competing with players in any sphere results in effectively placing a price cap on the item that players cannot charge more than. It really doesnt matter what the item is either the net effect can easily stop players crafting the item at all as they cannot make a profit on it.
A cash shop competing with players is also bad because if they want it to sell, and if they don't want it to sell why put it in the cash shop, then they have to make it attractive to buy. Making it attractive to buy means that at a minimum they need to compete either on price, effectiveness or convenience if not combinations of all. They have ruled out competing on effectiveness therefore they will either have to compete on price or convenience at a minimum. One is directly bad for crafters as it easily removes the ability to profit as already noted. The second is bad because it means that cash shop bought items will be available in ways that break the ability to starve a competitor of resources such as being able to purchase directly to back pack in the wilderness
this is going to get good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@KitNyx up 7 entries -- Yes that is what I am suggesting, either GW buys local item in local market to sell to player at or above the cash equivalent; or cash converts to gelb and player buys from market.
There is already an advantage in the cash shop, as the player gets the item direct from the cash shop, doesn't have to go find a player shop/market. Item could be could be rare or unavailable either locally to character or back at character home.
If character is in the wild, can the player go to cash shop and buy a CLW.
If GW is selling items other than player crafted items, it will depress the market. Yes, crafters may be able lower price -- or not if the margin is small.
[want to shout] Why should crafters need to compete with the GW cash shop?!!? {\shout]
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Goblin Squad Member
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Should the cash shop have an information panel displaying the sales of various items? I don't mean showing who bought what, but just some counters that show the number of purchases of the viewed item over the last day/week/month/year/all?
The one cash shop item that I assume people are okay with is buying training time, as an alternative to automatic-billing subscription. The player could apply it to a character directly, but there's also supposed to be a way to resell that training time for coin. How is that resale supposed to work? Is that like a separate tab of the shop in which players post the training packet for sale?
Back to the sales information: should there be an average of the going price-per-unit of player-resold training, as measured over various time periods? If it is known how much a unit of training costs in cash, and you know what that goes for when sold for coin, then you know the cash-to-coin exchange rate. Would it be better to go ahead and display that ratio, or to leave it so only those running market-monitoring bots have it? I think making the cash:coin exchange rate public information would be best, as leaving it to bots would mean external goldfarmers would be more informed than the average player.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If it works like EVE, you take your Training Time Certificate and sell on on local markets for whatever price you deem fit. If someone likes your price, they buy it. Alternately, people put up requests with what they're willing to play, and you can sell it to the highest requested amount.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Should the cash shop have an information panel displaying the sales of various items? I don't mean showing who bought what, but just some counters that show the number of purchases of the viewed item over the last day/week/month/year/all?
I very much agree. When selling something on the market, it's almost irrelevant what the existing asking prices are; what really matters is what the recent selling prices have been. The lack of that information in WoW is what allows those who are motivated to game the system by listing a 3 gold item for 20 plat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't have a particularly powerful dog in this "fight" as I've only invested a little attention to PFO so far and that only because my community has put in some investment. I lament the loss of the "good old days" where buying a game got you all of the game. It's not the price, as I'm one of those with disposable income and if the value is there I will buy it (my family hates Christmas shopping for me). I hate cash shops personally and would rather pay one larger price that included everything. It puts everyone on an equal footing where they can ATTEMPT to procure the items in game.
I realize that things have irreversibly changed and cash shops are basically here to stay as businesses try to refine their revenue streams. Cash flow and higher profit margins are good and help to pad poor business decisions with extra income. I understand the huge keg developers want to tap. The unreasonable/emotional side of me does however feel it goes against what I call the gamer spirit.
I'm with those who want only cosmetic items in the cash shop. While I'm not a crafter I don't think crafter made items in a cash shop will be conducive to a deep/rich player driven economy. It almost seems counter to the idea of building a thriving community.
Also we already have mechanical benefits purchased with money. Destiny's Twin I'm looking at you! I just hope it can be purchased after OE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Should the cash shop have an information panel displaying the sales of various items? I don't mean showing who bought what, but just some counters that show the number of purchases of the viewed item over the last day/week/month/year/all?I very much agree. When selling something on the market, it's almost irrelevant what the existing asking prices are; what really matters is what the recent selling prices have been. The lack of that information in WoW is what allows those who are motivated to game the system by listing a 3 gold item for 20 plat.
I am of mixed feeling on this. While it's undeniable how useful recent sale prices have been, it's not really in any of the character's scope of knowledge to know that info.
I think I would like to see a "Market research" skill that will let you unlock more data on a market's sale prices, and will let you compare prices at various markets to know when the time is right to bring a caravan of goods three towns over.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't like the idea of a character skill which also requires player skill to use. If "market research" skill is required to get the historical data, then player skill is required to interpret that data, neither alone is sufficient.
I see your point, but the entire combat system is one that requires character skills to unlock abilities and keywords, but player skill to chain to use attacks that are boosted by the keywords you have learned and to chain your individual attacks together to defeat a foe.
It seems appropriate that the non-combat portions of the game require the same blend of character and player skill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When selling something on the market, it's almost irrelevant what the existing asking prices are; what really matters is what the recent selling prices have been.I am of mixed feeling on this. While it's undeniable how useful recent sale prices have been, it's not really in any of the character's scope of knowledge to know that info.
I think of it along the lines of EVE providing information on recent player kills in a sector.
I think I would like to see a "Market research" skill that will let you unlock more data on a market's sale prices, and will let you compare prices at various markets to know when the time is right to bring a caravan of goods three towns over.
Absolutely, this information should be tied to skills.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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If we had a skill-based requirement for price discovery, all that will happen is that some character with the skill will be used to extract the data and publish it on a website. Then everyone who knows about the website will have the price information, and everyone who doesn't won't. So instead of an in-game character-based limitation, we create an out-of-game player based limitation.
So we'll make prices available in-game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So we'll make prices available in-game.
Then the fun will begin for folks who love hunting for arbitrage opportunities. I hope we'll see the green-eyeshade wonks behind the scenes giving orders to well-armed travel teams about where the best buy-and-sell opportunities are now.
The experts running those teams will judge where to move goods, how quickly, and how well-protected. Sound like lots of lovely human interaction, encompassing a variety of skill-sets, interests, and play-styles.