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I dont understand why people on here a community that should theoretically be trying to grow makes everyone that does not build the perfect monster character when asking for advice gets told your wrong this is a better way to do it... so what if I want to be a halfling wizard with a great maul... and want to know what feats would make it more fun, stop telling me to play a @$##ing summoner!!!!
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because fun is largely subjective. So ppl on the board give advice based on what is effective. if you're in it for fun alone, you don't need to go on msg boards and ask for advice for having fun.
Well , while i do think players should keep the most of their on will while creating a char , there is a limit to it.
If you make a char that is not an asset but actually a XP drain who is better left at home , the other players are the ones who gonna pay for your choices.
Which means if i was the GM i would warn you , but let you do it and say to the other players , if you think this char drags you down , toss him out of your party.
IF that happened , you would need to make a new char and a new one and a new one , till the rest of the party took you in, which they might not ever if you are just pulling them down.
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Perhaps you should conform. Conforming is good. Jump on the bandwagon...
...All the cool kids are doing it...
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Every '80s cartoon told ya to conform...
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Well, I really don't see people telling others what to play but offering helpful suggestions. If you ask for advice, most people will tell you how to build or play a character so that it is more effective (min/maxing, optimizing,etc.) because most of us assume that you will have more fun, and your friends will as well if you play a very effective character. There is noting wrong with that. If their suggestions don't fit your character concept, you are free to ignore them. If they are being a jerk about it, report them and ignore them afterward.
I think its all about how you approach people. When people ask about a very loose concept, the responses are going to tend toward what is best for that concept (as they see it) from a mechanical perspective.
As an art instructor, I can say this is sort of like teaching someone to paint. You can only really teach someone the technical piece of things. You can't give an artist vision, or give a writer his or her voice. Similarly, you can't tell someone how to roleplay.
Because of this, posters tend to limit their advice to the mechanical and logical side of the game when people ask questions, because this is where advice can be objective. Is X build going to work? Yes or No or Yes but here is a way to do those things better.
Also:
If you say that you want to play a halfling wizard with a great maul, then you have to recognize that 'Halfling', 'Wizard' and 'Great Maul' are all mechanical terms just as much as they are Roleplaying terms. If you want some other sort of feedback, then ask for exactly what you are looking for. No one is playing your character but you. No one here can force you to make decisions.
Pathfinder, however, is a very rules-dense game. So many people are simply trying to be helpful by bringing up ideas or combinations of ideas that you or others may not have thought about or heard of.
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We can't tell you how to have fun. All we can tell you is how to make an idea work better mechanically.
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I think its all about how you approach people. When people ask about a very loose concept, the responses are going to tend toward what is best for that concept (as they see it) from a mechanical perspective.
As an art instructor, I can say this is sort of like teaching someone to paint. You can only really teach someone the technical piece of things. You can't give an artist vision, or give a writer his or her voice. Similarly, you can't tell someone how to roleplay.
Because of this, posters tend to limit their advice to the mechanical and logical side of the game when people ask questions, because this is where advice can be objective. Is X build going to work? Yes or No or Yes but here is a way to do those things better.
Also:
If you say that you want to play a halfling wizard with a great maul, then you have to recognize that 'Halfling', 'Wizard' and 'Great Maul' are all mechanical terms just as much as they are Roleplaying terms. If you want some other sort of feedback, then ask for exactly what you are looking for. No one is playing your character but you. No one here can force you to make decisions.
Pathfinder, however, is a very rules-dense game. So many people are simply trying to be helpful by bringing up ideas or combinations of ideas that you or others may not have thought about or heard of.
To put some more perspective into this it helps if you state your goal upfront. If you have a concept, put it up front, if you have a few mechanics that you want to use, put them upfront too. You want to play ahalfling wizard with a great maul than that's great you just did. But, questions more usually involve "how do I make a halfling wizard with a great maul do more damage than the half orc mounted barbarian" (you cant). Ultimately you're going to get variations of "you can't" followed by "but you can do this very different thing".
A better question might be "how do I play this halfling great maul wielding wizard and deal a significant amount of damage with the maul"?
You're still going to get people telling you to be a better wizard. But this is not out of malice. Nor should you take that advice if you don't want it.
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You should try stressing that certain parts of your build are non-negotiable. People will still recommend what they think about your build, though, because that's what you're asking them for. When you ask for people's opinions, don't be surprised when they actually give them.
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You're playing into the two internet rules.
1. Giving a person the perceived power over your actions.
2. allowing them to anonymously do so.
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I'm sorry, I can't find the "great maul". Did you mean "maulaxe" or "piston maul"?
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I'm sorry, I can't find the "great maul". Did you mean "maulaxe" or "piston maul"?
Petty Alchemy is right.
You need to put aside flavor and optimize the mechanics of your complaint.
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This is why you have to learn to ignore people. Lots of people.
there will sometimes be people you need to ignore, but it has been my experience that the vast majority of people here genuinely do want to help. here are a few tips that will help get good advice (and some have already been mentioned):
1. be as specific as possible about what you're looking for advice on. asking how to do the most melee damage with your weirdly built wizard, will get a lot more productive advice than asking how to make a weird wizard build.
2. be as specific as possible about (relevant) character building details. if you're asking for help with a build post the point buy and what sources are or aren't allowed. if you want help with something that's already started post what's done already.
3. this may sound picky/petty/whatever, but proofread your posts. a question that seems clear to you might be really hard for others to figure out if its poorly worded. usually when people ask you what you mean, they're not trying to be rude, they're legitimately trying to figure out how to help you. also, try to be precise with what you say- the example above about the axe/maul is kind of funny but sometimes that difference could be significant (like, if one was 1handed and the other 2handed), and sometimes there are multiple abilities with similar names so it really can matter.
4. when all else fails just ignore people who are being rude (or even just unhelpful).
Should I even bother saying that's what happens when you ask for build advice from the unwashed masses of the Internet?
If your asking for advice... why would you be offended when someone points out that what you are doing is less then optimal?
You: Hey guys, so I want to play a Halfing Wizard with a great club. Got any advice?
Advicomancers: Well, halfing is not really the best race for Wizard, Elves can get a number of benefits off their racial abilities, or humans can rack up a bonus feat, which makes a huge difference. Also a greatclub probably won't help you much since you want to avoid melee and you'll eventually need free hands to carry rods. Have you considered a light crossbow? Its pretty much standard on all my low level characters and gives you an option if you run out of spells...
Did you want them to give you *bad* advice in the above exchange? Cause that seems counter to the idea of getting advice...
I agree that you need to stress more what parts of your build are just a matter of roleplay. People generally assume that you are trying to make a powerful build, so when they see a halfling wizard, they say, "Gee, you realize that's not gonna produce a powerful build, right?"
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We can't tell you how to have fun. All we can tell you is how to make an idea work better mechanically.
What if I don't want my idea to work better mechanically?
My interest in the game is not figuring out how to do the most damage possible.
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Then don't come to the forums for help in making a build "work". That suggests you're asking for help with mechanics. Specifically say that you want help with ideas, like the guy making the Succubus bloodline did.
Edit: As an analogy, that situation is roughly similar to going to a Jiffy Lube and being mad that they changed your oil instead of giving you a new paint job.
I can see the awesome potential of the build suggested by the OP.
NPC: "Damn, what's with the halfer? Compensating for the robes?"
Party member: "No, he's a wizard. That's just his 'backup' plan."
NPC: ".....Uh, hello sir....can I get you some tea?"
Then don't come to the forums for help in making a build "work". That suggests you're asking for help with mechanics. Specifically say that you want help with ideas, like the guy making the Succubus bloodline did.
Edit: As an analogy, that situation is roughly similar to going to a Jiffy Lube and being mad that they changed your oil instead of giving you a new paint job.
That is a horrible analogy, since Jiffy Lube does NOT do paint jobs. The people here are perfectly capable of helping make a Halfling Wizard with a Maul, without resorting to "play a summoner." It's more like going and asking for an oil change and getting the coolant system flushed.
Note the "work" does not equal "do the most possible damage."
a halfling wizard with a great maul
That sounds awesome. Please lob another thread with the final build. I'm starting a new homebrewed megadungeon campaign and am looking for quirky builds to fill out ranks in the tunnels.
As to people being rude well, that's people. Why in real life to people cut you off in traffic, steal parking spots or throw bricks through car windows? Because they can. Why in a large group conversation is there sometimes that ONE guy who thinks he's got (your political hot-button issue here) nailed and screw everyone who disagrees? Because those guys are out there.
Add those 2 up: you've got 1/3 of the internet.
In other words: haterz be hatin. There will never be a way to stop them all forever. Life is about what YOU do with the negative input you receive. D to the K, I hope you can find a way to accept the rage of others and rise above it.
Bad builds are a boo boo, haven't you heard?
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That is a horrible analogy, since Jiffy Lube does NOT do paint jobs. The people here are perfectly capable of helping make a Halfling Wizard with a Maul, without resorting to "play a summoner." It's more like going and asking for an oil change and getting the coolant system flushed.
Note the "work" does not equal "do the most possible damage."
Actually, I think the best analogy is something like this:
"Hey, guys, I have to take a test soon in history class and there's going to be an essay question about Ancient Egypt. I want to write about mummification, can you give me any advice on how to make this essay work?"
[after a few responses]
What the heck is wrong with you people? I never said I wanted to do well on the test! I just wanted to entertain my teacher with a cool story about a mummy attacking people in a museum! You guys are the worst! How dare you suggest that I might pass the class if I write about the actual funerary practices!
Note that "work" does not equal "do the most possible damage."Then don't come to the forums for help in making a build "work". That suggests you're asking for help with mechanics. Specifically say that you want help with ideas, like the guy making the Succubus bloodline did.
That's just it... for many people, that's what it DOES mean. These people are mistaken, of course, but it's still a common assumption that if you're not optimized you're "not doing your job." Therefore, when anyone asks for advice about a character, they assume you're asking about how to mechanically optimize it, because that's all that matters to them.
There is a reason for that. Because mechanical optimization is the only real solid thing people can all look at it work across the board. Fluff is dependent on campaign, GM, and other things. Fluff is just that, fluff. Mechanics do not change across unless the GM houserule's otherwise. This makes it hard for others who have no idea about your actual campaign, your GM, and YOUR OWN PREFERENCE to make any call regarding fluff.
I dont understand why people on here a community that should theoretically be trying to grow makes everyone that does not build the perfect monster character when asking for advice gets told your wrong this is a better way to do it... so what if I want to be a halfling wizard with a great maul... and want to know what feats would make it more fun, stop telling me to play a @$##ing summoner!!!!
How about you tell people WHY you want to play a wizard and will not budge? What difference is there in the fluff? Unless you are one of those people who are so tuck in fluff that you believe all ninjas run around in pajamas, all Samurai look asian, and all barbarians are nordic bloodthirsty hulking behemoths, you can fluff anything as anything...
That is a horrible analogy, since Jiffy Lube does NOT do paint jobs. The people here are perfectly capable of helping make a Halfling Wizard with a Maul, without resorting to "play a summoner." It's more like going and asking for an oil change and getting the coolant system flushed.
Note the "work" does not equal "do the most possible damage."
Actually, I think the best analogy is something like this:
"Hey, guys, I have to take a test soon in history class and there's going to be an essay question about Ancient Egypt. I want to write about mummification, can you give me any advice on how to make this essay work?"
[after a few responses]
What the heck is wrong with you people? I never said I wanted to do well on the test! I just wanted to entertain my teacher with a cool story about a mummy attacking people in a museum! You guys are the worst! How dare you suggest that I might pass the class if I write about the actual funerary practices!
I have to disagree with this, because the DPR of my character is not the sole way to determine if it is a sucessful character.
And to make your analogy more accurate, the poster wants to write about Egyptian mummification, and the "helpful" suggestions are that he should write about Egyptian Pyramid building.
His character can do well without rolling a handful of dice.
I dont understand why people on here a community that should theoretically be trying to grow makes everyone that does not build the perfect monster character when asking for advice gets told your wrong this is a better way to do it... so what if I want to be a halfling wizard with a great maul... and want to know what feats would make it more fun, stop telling me to play a @$##ing summoner!!!!How about you tell people WHY you want to play a wizard and will not budge? What difference is there in the fluff? Unless you are one of those people who are so tuck in fluff that you believe all ninjas run around in pajamas, all Samurai look asian, and all barbarians are nordic bloodthirsty hulking behemoths, you can fluff anything as anything...
I must have missed where the difference between a Wizard and a Summoner is fluff.
If I want to play a game without "fluff," or with limited "fluff," I will fire up a copy of Neverwinter Nights or Forgotten Realms: Unlimited Adventures or Ultima or Zork or...
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I understand the OP's point of view.
Sometimes class and concept aren't going to synergize perfectly. To use the OP's example. He wants to play a halfling wizard with a greatclub. Making a human summoner with a curveblade isn't going to be a halfling wizard with a greatclub. Helping him with emphasizing his choice's strengths without erasing the 'weaknesses' goes a long way to helping.
For example, I'd recommend to the OP that he decide why his halfling wants to have the great club, and how good he wants to be at it. If it's his backup weapon, then I'd recommend he look at rays (due to high dex/size bonus) and invest in Point Blank Shot. If he wants to use magic to augment him in melee (at least initially) he can look into shield, mage armor and true strike at low levels.
Also concepts change over time. Will the halfling learn that no matter how much he buffs, he doesn't belong in melee? Then he'll likely change his spell selection. Does he like Melee? Then it's a level or two of fighter and on to Eldrich Knight. All are valid ways of helping the player/character without invaliding his starting point.
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I dont understand why people on here a community that should theoretically be trying to grow makes everyone that does not build the perfect monster character when asking for advice gets told your wrong this is a better way to do it... so what if I want to be a halfling wizard with a great maul... and want to know what feats would make it more fun, stop telling me to play a @$##ing summoner!!!!
Yeah, I hate it when I ask for advice and people go out of their way to give me some and its not the advice I want. Bastards!!!
I understand the OP's point of view.
Sometimes class and concept aren't going to synergize perfectly. To use the OP's example. He wants to play a halfling wizard with a greatclub. Making a human summoner with a curveblade isn't going to be a halfling wizard with a greatclub. Helping him with emphasizing his choice's strengths without erasing the 'weaknesses' goes a long way to helping.
For example, I'd recommend to the OP that he decide why his halfling wants to have the great club, and how good he wants to be at it. If it's his backup weapon, then I'd recommend he look at rays (due to high dex/size bonus) and invest in Point Blank Shot. If he wants to use magic to augment him in melee (at least initially) he can look into shield, mage armor and true strike at low levels.
Also concepts change over time. Will the halfling learn that no matter how much he buffs, he doesn't belong in melee? Then he'll likely change his spell selection. Does he like Melee? Then it's a level or two of fighter and on to Eldrich Knight. All are valid ways of helping the player/character without invaliding his starting point.
If he's going the "good at melee" route, I'd also suggest Arcane Strike and later Power Attack and Toughness as good feats. Finally I'd make the suggestion of getting a familiar with arcane bond. Down the road get Alter Self and other Transmutation (polymorph) spells and begin using said familiar in a melee support capacity.
No, these are not mechanically optimal but I think they play into the melee aspects he wants to emphasize. And that's really the point of this thread isn't it? If the OP has already made some decisions and is asking about playing up a specific aspect of his build then that's where the advice should point.
I am of two minds on this subject.
First, you should always try to find out (if not clear in the OP) and then support whatever the person asking the question is actually trying to achieve. So if someone says, I want to make a halfing wizard with a maul, what should I take, I would first ask them what they wish to accomplish with their character both thematically and mechanically. If the answer is a little guy who magically beats people up with a club then magus might be a better suggestion then wizard. If there is something else to it I might recommend something else. But the key is to figure out goals, instead of just responding to what seems like an odd combination of options.
Next, I do think its a good idea to let people know if you think that certain things simply will not work the way the OP hopes. For instance there was a poster recently that was trying to in his own words play a '2handing barbarian smashy type' with the inquisitor class. He was wondering why the paladin and the vivesctionist alchemist always seemed to out damage him. Here is a case where its a good idea to point out that the concept isnt going to work with the chosen class/other mechanical options.
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PS: And to a degree, sub-par builds based on "Personal Concept" can be very selfish and rude to your party. If you are dead weight in your party, not only do others have to do more in combat/play to keep you afloat, they also risk losing gold/xp/items/characters if you get them killed for it.
See, this keeps being brought up and it sets my teeth on edge. This ridiculous notion pervading these forums that "concept" or "non "bleeding edge optimized, min max munchkin" means it is "sub par". Many even seem to think and espouse the idea that playing a base character class without a very specific set of feats/traits is somehow a detriment to a party, and worse treat Pathfinder like it should be played like an MMO raid, tracking every iota of performance and if you don't match the mythical "Spreadsheet of Exceptionalism", then you are doing fun wrong. (Not saying that was your opinion there, Redjack, just in general)
Firstly, in 32 years I have yet to ever play a table top RPG as a spreadsheet or the like, and secondly, in all those years I have rarely seen the situations be so optimal as those spreadsheets would assume anyway.
Granted, a very poorly made or played character can make things difficult for a party, a concept doesn't mean it is either. Make a character you like and understand and you will have more fun and probably bring more to the table than Grognak the uber barbarian clone of doom that is mechanically "superior", but just a bunch of numbers and dice rolls. Remeber, it is "role" playing, not "roll" playing, after all.
I can't usually tell what would make someone's character more fun or deeper. Its entirely subjective and exists only in the other persons head. There's no shared common ground.
"How many half foster homes should my half elf summoner have grown up in?" doesn't really have a right, or a better answer.
What race should my summoner be has something to discuss and possibly learn from. We have the shared common ground of the rules to pour through.
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I can't usually tell what would make someone's character more fun or deeper. Its entirely subjective and exists only in the other persons head. There's no shared common ground.
"How many half foster homes should my half elf summoner have grown up in?" doesn't really have a right, or a better answer.
What race should my summoner be has something to discuss and possibly learn from. We have the shared common ground of the rules to pour through.
Well sure, if someone asks for general advice along the lines of, "Help me build a wizard" or "help me make a character that can do XYZ", then it stands to reason people would posit the most effective concepts that fit the bill. The problem arises when someone asks for something in particular, and then people come in and ignore what was asked for and tell the person that something else is better, or that their ideas is tripe and they should do blah blah blah instead. If a person asks for particular advice and you can, give it, if you cannot add anything to their request within the parameters they set, don't say anything then... but don't assume to tell people how to better "play the game", which is essentially what a lot of the advice replies turn into.
Anyway, just my 2 copper, YMMV
-Foms
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Well sure, if someone asks for general advice along the lines of, "Help me build a wizard" or "help me make a character that can do XYZ", then it stands to reason people would posit the most effective concepts that fit the bill. The problem arises when someone asks for something in particular, and then people come in and ignore what was asked for and tell the person that something else is better
If someone asks me "Whats the best way to pet a rabid pitbull?" I feel the need to ask "are you sure you wouldn't rather pet the non rabid golden retriever instead?" rather than pedantically answering their question.
Some concepts are such a bad idea that I feel the need to point out alternatives to them: usually I have seen them not work, or the player get frustrated with the character and the game trying to play them. If they insist I'll try to make it as unpainful as possible, but I do feel the need to try to talk them out of it first.
Try closing the subforum where you are getting those responses.
There are lots of forums here, and some of them exhibit almost zero shenanigans. The AP-specific forums, gamer life, house rules, they're all quite charming.
PFRPG general discussion and rules can get a bit hairy.
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I dont understand why people on here a community that should theoretically be trying to grow makes everyone that does not build the perfect monster character when asking for advice gets told your wrong this is a better way to do it... so what if I want to be a halfling wizard with a great maul... and want to know what feats would make it more fun, stop telling me to play a @$##ing summoner!!!!
Just a bit of perspective.
When someone posts a potential build that is suboptimal, what is the community to think?
1} This is a highly experienced player who knows the system inside and out, realizes the gameplay implications of their build and has carefully considered the impact of their choices. This person is asking for input because... um... because they... reasons?
2} This is a new player who isn't terribly familiar with the system, doesn't know all the options that exist that might make their character more successful, and may be open to reconsidering some of their choices once they are told the implications. This person is asking for input because they recognize they can benefit from a community of people who know the game well.
3} This is a player who has posted their pet build so that they can complain about anyone who tells them a statistically better way of building it. They are unwilling to budge on any of their design choices despite going out of their way to place their idea up for public scrutiny. This person is a troll.
So.
Without having any clue what thread(s) have spawned your complaint, I hope I've given you some food for thought. The community hivemind doesn't act as it does out of maliciousness. We've seen plenty of #2 and #3 over the years.