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I was looking into animal companions and how to get a strong one, and I came up with a character build that borders on ridiculous.
Level 28 animal companion at level 12
Play either an elf or an aasimar. An aasimar is better as you can take the Celestial Servant feat. Elf allows the Ancient Lorekeeper archetype but this can be achieved with Scion of Humanity and the Racial Heritage: Elf feat.
Choose Oracle as your favoured class and choose your racial benefit: Add +1/2 to the oracle’s level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation. (Choose Bonded Mount)
Start with the
Take 5 levels of Nature Oracle but do not take Bonded Mount until your 7th level revelation. For your 5th level feat, take
deep and lasting friendship with an animal.
Prerequisites: Nature Soul, character level 4th, must not
have an animal companion or mount that advances as an
animal companion.
Benefit: You gain an animal companion as if you were
a druid of your character level –3 from the following
list: badger, bird, camel, cat (small), dire rat, dog, horse,
pony, snake (viper), or wolf. If you later gain an animal
companion through another source (such as the Animal
domain, divine bond, hunter’s bond, mount, or nature
bond class features), the effective druid level granted by
this feat stacks with that granted by other sources.
You must take its prerequisite feat at level 1 or 3 though. As you do not have an animal companion it is legal.
For your 6th level, take a level of Sorcerer of the
Now take the remainder of your levels as Nature Oracle, taking
The animal companion can be selected from the entire list (sorcerer) and has a minimum intelligence of 6 (oracle).
Now to put it all together. Each Oracle level grants 1.5 animal companion levels. Your Sorcerer level grants 1 level, or 3 with a Robe of Arcane Heritage, and the Animal Ally feat grants HD -3 levels.
So assuming a Robe of Arcane Heritage is worn, just the sorcerer level with the Animal Ally feat gives you an animal companion equal to your level. Now add on ((character level -1) x 1.5, rounded down) for the oracle levels and it just explodes. At level 8, the animal companion is level 16 (18 with robes), and at character level 12 it is 26 (28 with robes).
Some may argue that the animal companion caps at level 20, but the progression is obvious so it is easy to extend. It is unclear if the table should extend (what happens after 20th level?).
Anyway, that's my rant.
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Only works if your companion is a camel or horse, thus the Sorc level is not a good as you think.
Why, because the Nature Oracle revelation is a copy paste of the cavalier mount, and the APG FAQ has this to say on cavalier mount and druid companion stacking:
If the animal is on the cavalier mount list and on the list of animal companions for your other class, your cavalier and druid levels stack to determine the animal's abilities. If the animal is not on the cavalier mount list, the druid levels do not stack and you must have different animals (one an animal companion, one a cavalier mount).
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I didn't audit everything you put there, but I do know the feat Animal Ally was worded on first read in a way that makes it supremely broken.
I figured it would get fixed, or people would start making builds to demonstrate how silly it is.
At minimum it can be used to add Character Level-7 to the AC effective level.
Hmm, so a Druid could take a Domain, wait until level 5 (or realistically, 7th because you need Natural Spell) and take Animal Ally, then retrain to a companion, and end up with an animal companion of twice your level -3?
I just don't think it works like you think.
You're not supposed to count the same class level twice, class levels don't stack with themselves.
The ability stacks with any other AC levels you might have,
but it isn't letting the same class level count twice and thus stack with itself.
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Is it bad that I now want to do this? I'm pretty sure it's bad.
perhaps I should have written "character levels" should not be counted twice, because that is counting the same thing twice, not stacking.
AA says: " as if you were a druid of your character level –3"
So if a given class/character level is being counted as 'druid level' (stacking with other druid levels) for AC scaling,
the same character level shouldn't be double counted just because there are multiple abilities based on 'character level'.
other source =/= the same source you want to count twice via different means.
what is being counted, and stacked, are class levels, either class-specific, or class-agnostic 'character level'.
stacking =/= counting twice.
if you're not trying to count the same level twice, then it stacks with other truly different sources.
...or level 28 animal companion at level 12.
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Sources... what is a source? If a feat gives you +x to your hit, where your hit is dexterity, is dexterity your source, or the feat?
Source does infer the origins, but you have to note that if the object (or bonus in this case) is modified at all the source would be the place where it was modified. Just like the source of cars is the factory, not good old Mother Earth.
Another thing to note, the store is my source of groceries. Sources are relative.
Please note this is invalid as written.
Animal Ally:
Your respect for nature is so great that you can form a
deep and lasting friendship with an animal.
Prerequisites: Nature Soul, character level 4th, must not
have an animal companion or mount that advances as an
animal companion.
Benefit: You gain an animal companion as if you were
a druid of your character level –3 from the following
list: badger, bird, camel, cat (small), dire rat, dog, horse,
pony, snake (viper), or wolf. If you later gain an animal
companion through another source (such as the Animal
domain, divine bond, hunter’s bond, mount, or nature
bond class features), the effective druid level granted by
this feat stacks with that granted by other sources.
The problem is the bolded part.
Here's the official word:
1. The game differentiates between permanent ability score bonuses (such as +1 every 4 character levels and wearing a +2 belt of giant strength for 24 hours) and temporary ability score bonuses (such as from barbarian rage, an alchemist mutagen, or a bull's strength spell).
2. Permanent ability score bonuses do count for the purpose of qualifying for feats.
3. If you lose a permanent ability score bonus, you still have the feat, you just can't use it until your ability score qualifies again.
Just like qualifying for Combat Reflexes by using a belt of dexterity, or qualifying for Combat Expertise by using a head band, if you lose said qualification, you still have the feat, you simply can't use it.
So, in this case, you have lost the qualification of 'not having an animal companion' with the referenced build, and thus lose the benefit of the feat until you get rid of the animal companion in question. At which point you attract a new animal ally. Who leaves when you get your animal companion back after the ritual.
i'm sympathetic, but the feat description itself describes how the feat works if/when you later gain AC levels via a new class/feat/etc. if the feat is cancelled out by that pre-req changing, then said wording would never be applicable.
Benefit: ... If you later gain an animal companion through another source (such as the Animal domain, divine bond, hunter’s bond, mount, or nature bond class features), the effective druid level granted by this feat stacks with that granted by other sources.
so i would be willing to accept that as a GENERAL rule but in this case the feat itself is discussing what happens when the pre-req is violated, so i would say that is grounds to say the feat is still in effect and the last line does determine how this feat interacts with the new ability (rather than this feat just being negated).
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wow you even quoted the rule and ignored the last part of it...
If you later gain an animal
companion through another source (such as the Animal
domain, divine bond, hunter’s bond, mount, or nature
bond class features), the effective druid level granted by
this feat stacks with that granted by other sources.
i'm sympathetic, but the feat description itself describes how the feat works if/when you later gain AC levels via a new class/feat/etc. if the feat is cancelled out by that pre-req changing, then said wording would never be applicable.
Benefit: ... If you later gain an animal
companion through another source (such as the Animal
domain, divine bond, hunter’s bond, mount, or nature
bond class features), the effective druid level granted by
this feat stacks with that granted by other sources.
Actually, technically, that section shouldn't even apply. By the rules, you no longer qualify for the feat, so you can't use the feat, even though the benefit has wording. Unfortunately, the benefit doesn't say to ignore the prerequisite.
RAI, I think they intended it to just stack. But, instead because of the way feat prerequisites work, you lose access to the feat via the loss of prerequisite (just as if you lost the headband and can't combat expertise anymore).
I see mdt et al. have it covered. Animal Ally is for characters who otherwise would not have an animal companion; it is useless if you gain one through another source.
Your respect for nature is so great that you can form a
deep and lasting friendship with an animal.
Prerequisites: Nature Soul, character level 4th, must not
have an animal companion or mount that advances as an
animal companion.
Benefit: You gain an animal companion as if you were
a druid of your character level –3 from the following
list: badger, bird, camel, cat (small), dire rat, dog, horse,
pony, snake (viper), or wolf. If you later gain an animal
companion through another source (such as the Animal
domain, divine bond, hunter’s bond, mount, or nature
bond class features), the effective druid level granted by
this feat stacks with that granted by other sources.
Specific trumps general. The feat itself deals with what happens if you obtain an AC after taking the feat.
wow you even quoted the rule and ignored the last part of it...
If you later gain an animal
companion through another source (such as the Animal
domain, divine bond, hunter’s bond, mount, or nature
bond class features), the effective druid level granted by
this feat stacks with that granted by other sources.
No, I read it.
Unfortunately, while RAI was that they just stack, they didn't put anything into it about the prerequisites. And due to previous rulings on what happens when you lose a prerequisite (you have the feat but no benefit from it), the benefit goes away. Case of specific A canceling specific B. RAI, they wanted it to just stack. The ruling on feat prerequisites breaks that. It needs an errata, something like the prerequisite only applies at the time you take the feat.
EDIT : Actually, that text needs to be moved to the special entry for the feat.
Your respect for nature is so great that you can form a
deep and lasting friendship with an animal.
Prerequisites: Nature Soul, character level 4th, must not
have an animal companion or mount that advances as an
animal companion.
Benefit: You gain an animal companion as if you were
a druid of your character level –3 from the following
list: badger, bird, camel, cat (small), dire rat, dog, horse,
pony, snake (viper), or wolf. If you later gain an animal
companion through another source (such as the Animal
domain, divine bond, hunter’s bond, mount, or nature
bond class features), the effective druid level granted by
this feat stacks with that granted by other sources.Specific trumps general. The feat itself deals with what happens if you obtain an AC after taking the feat.
Yes, specific trumps general. But in this case, the specific of the feat prerequisites says the benefit is non-accessable. Since you can't access it, it can't override anything.
RAI, it's what you're saying. RAW, the benefit can't be accessed for it to override.
If they'd moved the section you're quoting to a Special entry, then you'd be correct and it'd override. But because it's in the Benefit, it can't override.
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MDT is...
somewhat right.
I say somewhat because the word "pre-requisite" means "required before" which does not mean "required during".
RAW, as a standalone, they are right. But MDT is right because of the FAQ defining what a pre-requisite is. I wonder how many english majors they have employed...
But overall raising an AC above your character level is typically an exploit. It should not be allowed, but if people get a kick out of using exploits (I honestly like finding them, not using them) more power to them... as long as they don't impede on anyone else's fun.
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you can always go with an oracle, and use favored class to make it lvl 30 when you're 20 =D it's not unheard of and that one doesn't even require much thought.
The feat its self explicitly states what happens when you get an AC from other sources and that it stacks with other sources...
The FAQ about pre-reqs causing feats to not function until restored does not apply in this situation since the feat its self covers it in a special manner.
Look at it as a odd boon companion feat.
MDT is...
somewhat right.
LOL
Sarcastic remark
I did say that the obvious (glaringly if you prefer) intention was for it to stack. However, strict RAW, the feat goes away. You can insult me if you want, but saying something by strict RAW doesn't work as intended is not me lacking common sense. It's me pointing out that the specific interaction has a disconnect between RAW and RAI.
God if I had $10 for every situation THAT occurs in PF, I could afford to buy a lot of stuff. :)
But if it makes you feel better to be insulting, hey, go for it. Far be it from me to prevent you from boosting your self esteem. it's not like it makes a big whoop to me how much you insult me. :)
The FAQ about pre-reqs causing feats to not function until restored does not apply in this situation since the feat its self covers it in a special manner.
Except it's not in a special manner. If it were, it would be in the Special section of the feat. Special section is for calling out exceptions to existing rules. Benefits section is for listing the benefits of the feat when it is functional.
Specific trumps general. The feat itself deals with what happens if you obtain an AC after taking the feat.Your respect for nature is so great that you can form a
deep and lasting friendship with an animal.
Prerequisites: Nature Soul, character level 4th, must not
have an animal companion or mount that advances as an
animal companion.
Benefit: You gain an animal companion as if you were
a druid of your character level –3 from the following
list: badger, bird, camel, cat (small), dire rat, dog, horse,
pony, snake (viper), or wolf. If you later gain an animal
companion through another source (such as the Animal
domain, divine bond, hunter’s bond, mount, or nature
bond class features), the effective druid level granted by
this feat stacks with that granted by other sources.
Whoops, I did miss that. And I just made a character with that feat. : /
Hmm. What happens if you don't actually try to go past your character level, such as a fighter 6/druid 1? Is your effective druid level 4 or 5?
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Note that the Oracle ability thing, combined with the 'treat as higher' would still let you push that AC above hit dice.
It's just that ANimal Ally really doesn't make any difference. You could do it just with Oracle all by itself.
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Only works if your companion is a camel or horse, thus the Sorc level is not a good as you think.
Why, because the Nature Oracle revelation is a copy paste of the cavalier mount, and the APG FAQ has this to say on cavalier mount and druid companion stacking:
If the animal is on the cavalier mount list and on the list of animal companions for your other class, your cavalier and druid levels stack to determine the animal's abilities. If the animal is not on the cavalier mount list, the druid levels do not stack and you must have different animals (one an animal companion, one a cavalier mount).
I missed that. Thanks for pointing that out. At least it weakens the AC somewhat.
It does? Horses are pretty effective in a fight once they're combat trained.
If I were you, I'd quit calling people stupid in posts. Unless you want your posts deleted.
The feat prerequisite, despite your attempt at humor, isn't negated by it's own benefit. And the quoted text you have at the bottom actually backs me up. You still have the feat, but you lose the benefit of it if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. That's why I said the text about stacking should have been in a Special section, not the Benefit section. As the feat rules are written now, if you have animal ally, and then gain an AC from Ranger for example, you are in the limbo of having Animal Ally, but having lost the prerequisite for it, which by the feat rules says you still have the feat but can't benefit from it. Since you can't benefit from it, you can't stack your levels for your animal companion because you can't benefit from the benefit section of the feat.
It's a weird RAW thing, and not as intended by the devs, but strictly interpreting RAW, you're hosed on it.
Eh, I'm pretty sure that if the feat specifically overrides its own prerequisite section to say that "this special thing happens when you gain a separate animal companion feature", that overrides the general rule that losing prerequisites means losing the feat. And I don't see any reason why it would have to be in the separate "Special" subsection, which in practice is generally a dumping ground for extra feat properties that only apply to a subset of characters with that feat. It probably ought to be, but it doesn't have to be.
If I were you, I'd quit calling people stupid in posts. Unless you want your posts deleted.
The feat prerequisite, despite your attempt at humor, isn't negated by it's own benefit. And the quoted text you have at the bottom actually backs me up. You still have the feat, but you lose the benefit of it if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore. That's why I said the text about stacking should have been in a Special section, not the Benefit section. As the feat rules are written now, if you have animal ally, and then gain an AC from Ranger for example, you are in the limbo of having Animal Ally, but having lost the prerequisite for it, which by the feat rules says you still have the feat but can't benefit from it. Since you can't benefit from it, you can't stack your levels for your animal companion because you can't benefit from the benefit section of the feat.
It's a weird RAW thing, and not as intended by the devs, but strictly interpreting RAW, you're hosed on it.
RAW can and does break down, however. This feat is a great example. It has already been covered that if you lose prereqs for a feat (even temporarily) you lose access to that feat. So what happens when a level 4 character with this feat gets hit with a negative level? Does the AC just go poof into a cloud of mist and disappear?
Sometimes common sense needs to trump RAW. And in this specific case, it is a boon to any GM that the feat actually does contradict itself.. because it is then much easier to change it so that the feat only applies in the following way:
Prereqs: 4 levels in a CLASS that does not grant an animal companion. etc. etc.
Benefit: Choose one CLASS that does not grant an animal companion, gain an animal companion @ class level -3. If you gain an AC from another source blah blah blah things stack
That way, a nature oracle could qualify for the feat initially, but as soon as they took an animal companion from their class, it would no longer qualify for the feat and the feat would therefore become obsolete.
The thing about the favored class bonus to oracle... well that is harder to sidestep since it is pretty specific. But the limited animal choices do help to mitigate that factor.
We could always apply common sense in both ways and say you don't lose the feat if you gain an animal companion later AND you don't use your druid levels to apply twice to your animal companion.
But yes, if we want to insist playing RAW and say that your animal companion levels stacks twice for your AC, you will also have to play RAW and say that you lose the feat the moment you gain animal companion levels.
While I do agree that we should all strive for civility, and even insulting the reasoning rather than the person is over the line, I think he raises a point.
must not have an animal companion or mount that advances as an animal companion
you gain an animal companion.
A strictly RAW reading would indicate that the feat disqualifies itself. Call it poor writing.
Since this is obviously not the intent, and the feat further goes on to state what happens if you do gain an animal companion from another source, I think you need to go with what the feat says over the general rule for prerequisites.
As for common sense and "double stacking," I can see opinions differ on how it works. My own feeling is that character level and class level are differently defined terms, so you aren't stacking the same thing. It doesn't bug me. Common sense isn't a coherent notion shared at large by everyone, it basically is just your own opinion.
But I can see why it would bug some people, and that others will interpret it differently.
Which is the more RAW? Don't know.
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Way I read it : as long as you do not get class levels in something that grants you a companion, then equivalent druid level = character level -3 = (combined levels in all classes that do not grant a companion) - 3.
It is not such a big leap in logic to assume that the latter is the basis that gets added to other equivalent druid levels for classes that grant a companion.