Lotion's page

These are pretty fun to read. Thanks for setting this up.

Just post your build already and let the mob decide.

I agree, I regard the Qingong as a "true" monk, insofar as he is a kick-b**t martial artist with mystic powers. However, I haven't seen a pure qingong put forward as an option either. The fact that you need to cross several archetypes just makes the point that monks are not much good without a lot of system mastery, and that's part of the issue some of us have with monks.

The worst thing is, a lot of those archetypes aren't strong options, they are just better options than a core monk, usually allowing him to do one thing well. There's not much a monk - or even an archetype - can do as their signature ability that you can't point to another class and say "They do it better/as well and they do a lot more besides."

This isn't a monk-hate stance, it's a "Paiso will you please improve the monk" stance.

I actually posted a Halfling pure Qinggong reach monk 2 pages back that I would play. (actually I lied. I don't normally dump int so you can remove 2 dex from that build). Is he a damage monstrosity? Nope. But he's good enough in my group.

If you allow the agile amulet I can turn that qinggong monk into a pure unarmed character and post you a character build. I personally don't touch that item in the forums because some people consider relying on that amulet a sin.

But here's my stance: Can Paizo improve the monk so that it requires less system mastery to make a decent character? Sure.
Do I think its as horrible a class as a lot of people on the forums makes it out to be? Not really.

A steam giant!

Pair up with your buddies and drive that monstrosity through the undermountain. See if you can add a drill so you can just drill through the dungeon to the treasure room.

Doing dungeons properly is for peasants.

Justin Rocket wrote:

MrSin wrote:

Is it safe to say using archetypes or other classes makes the monk not a monk?

Absolutely not! A monk with an archetype is still a monk, just like a Tattooed Sorcerer is still a Sorcerer.

Not the best comparison I don't think. A tattooed sorcerer still has bloodline arcana and the full arcane spell list. Just like an Invulnerable Barbarian still has all his rage and rage powers. There isn't anything iconic, thematic, or part of the core that's really lost. On the other hand, a monk with Zen Archer or Sohei is radically different and plays entirely different than a core monk. Also, both those classes do just fine without archetypes. Monk Archetypes are more like Bard archetypes imo, where they commonly swap out versatile performance or bardic performance which also radically changes how they play and what they do.

In that it was once a monk? Yes. In that it does what a monk does? No.

Same question I pose to you that I posed to Lemmy then.

What are essential core mechanics that makes a monk a monk? If I replace Slowfall with Barkskin, am I suddenly "not a monk?"

I'm not trying being obtuse with the question here. I genuinely feel that we cannot move forward in these build discussions until we know what makes a monk a monk to you. Someone (Ashiel) can make an armored core monk. Is he not a monk because he's not making use of all his abilities?

Someone can make a tetori monk that focuses on grappling but gives up flurry of blows. Is that a monk?

Someone can make a core monk that uses a two hand temple sword. Is he not a monk because he's using a weapon?

What mechanics does a build have to use in order for you to consider a build to be a monk?

Lotion wrote:

I can respect that. Which leads to my next question:

What are the core mechanics that makes monk a monk?

Not sure about specific mechanics, but for me, a Monk is the guy who uses no armor and fights either unarmed or with classic Monk weapons, like sai, nunchucks, bo staff, etc. maybe improvised weapons too. He has some sort of quasi-mystical ability that allows him to do fantastic stuff and is really good at tripping, grappling and disarming. He is fast and agile, but not necessarily very strong.

Problem is... To make an effective Monk, you end up removing many, if not most, of these characteristics.

So to sum up:

Benefits with no armor.
Bonuses to Unarmed/Classic Monk Weapons (Eastern Weapons and temple sword omitted).
Spell like abilities.
Fast movement.
Bonus to combat maneuvers.
Extra benefit with dex (normal monk doesn't provide this)

Does that sound right to you?

Lotion wrote:

Depends. What's a monk?

Why do you feel that Qinggong, the archetype that stacks with every other monk archetype and any new archetype that is created in the future, not a monk?

Is it different than a barbarian selecting APG rage powers for pounce?

Personally I feel that Qinggong is a customization option for monks rather than a "you not a monk anymore if you take it," but that's just me.

I have nothing against Qinggong. Sohei and Zen archer, though don't feel anything like Monks, IMHO. And Sensei feels more like a Bard than a Monk.

I can respect that. Which leads to my next question:

What are the core mechanics that makes monk a monk?

Depends. What's a monk?

Why do you feel that Qinggong, the archetype that stacks with every other monk archetype and any new archetype that is created in the future, not a monk?

Is it different than a barbarian selecting APG rage powers for pounce?

Personally I feel that Qinggong is a customization option for monks rather than a "you not a monk anymore if you take it," but that's just me.

Since you lose increase unarmed damage, wouldn't that damage be 1d3?

Sohei Rule Clarification

Looks like you can have a different type of brawler now. Someone want to make an armored monk with brawling and gloves of dueling and see how it stacks up?

*looks at his unarmored Str Wis Sohei in PFS*

Well damn.

I'll throw a build out there for critique. Probally some calculation errors.

With the retraining rules and the FAQ based on them you can get the whole dimensional dervish line at level 12 for 1800 gold and 15 days. ;)

Buy a giant vulture.

Go Sohei.

Mediocre archery before level 6.
Destroy encounters at level 6.

Upgrade to wondrous figurines once you have cash.

Note: this requires owning Animal Archives.

Second Note: Be courteous to your fellow players and don't overwhelm the table with a CR 4 creature at level 2. Start with a horse.

We could always apply common sense in both ways and say you don't lose the feat if you gain an animal companion later AND you don't use your druid levels to apply twice to your animal companion.

But yes, if we want to insist playing RAW and say that your animal companion levels stacks twice for your AC, you will also have to play RAW and say that you lose the feat the moment you gain animal companion levels.

I've been down this road, it leads to tears.

Don't do this. Not like this anyways. Are you sure your GM won't listen to your concerns?

Thread, I dot thee!

Here's a neat question for you guys: Does a character with 1 level in inquisitor get Bane from bane baldric?

What is your goal here? Doors that should have a chance to found or doors that shouldn't be found and only usable by NPCs?

If its the former, and you don't like the infallibleness of detect secret doors, you can always just talk to the players about your concern and see if you can change the detect secret door spell to something like +1 perception/caster level + casting stat.

If its the latter, just fiat it with antimagic instead of playing semantics with the spell.

Looks to me like it only works if you somehow cast the spell before initiative rolled.

Lots of oracles here, so I'll suggest an alternative: Cha focused Dhampir Cleric with Command Undead and Undead Master, with all favoured class into +1 to the caster level of any channeling feat used to affect undead.

Just focus on buff or no save spells for your cleric spells and you wouldn't miss the lower casting stat too much.

I wonder how many PCs are related to Haleen.

I'm sure they take it for RP reasons!

As I said, next time you're in a life-or-death situation, run a stop watch and compare the time it reads at the end to the time you thought it took. I guarantee you thought a lot more than a normal 6 seconds worth of thoughts in those 6 seconds of pulse-pounding, adrenaline pumping, life-threatening action. If you find a way to replicate that frame of mind for players sitting around a table looking at character sheets and miniatures, by all means, limit them to 6 seconds on the clock. Also, regarding casters, it's directed by their raw willpower; they only need glance at the battlefield and they know where to place their fireball so it hits the optimal number of targets. They also have experience on their side; it literally takes them a few nanoseconds to do what it takes a player a good 10 seconds to measure out. The two are incomparable.

I have over 2000 games of experience on League of Legends. I still mess up my skill shots from time to time.

Note: A skill shot is an ability that targets an area on the ground. Similar to fireball targeting.

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Some traits are so unique and strong that entire builds HINGE upon them.

Any examples of that off hand?

I was thinking the bow prof would be one. Maybe Heirloom weapon.

Blade of Mercy + Enforcer comes to mind

My mistake. The falling rules state it for falling characters.

"Note that a falling object takes the same amount of damage as it deals."

Ah, I missed that line. That helps me a lot actually, thanks. Okay, thread over.

Just reach out and grab it as you are falling, put it in your bag of holding or handy haversack to protect it and worry about how you will survive :P

If I could afford a bronze griffon figurine, I could probally afford a ring of feather falling or boots of the cat :P

Also thanks Blake for going through that effort.

Dive for it? Its still got hardness and it IS a magical item. It is a tiny object so at most it would take maybe 4 points of damage from the fall.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/environmental-rules#TOC-F alling

How do you figure? I thought the object would take 10d6 damage.

The falling objects table refers to objects falling on you.

Situation:

You are riding your bronze griffon wondrous figurine 100ft in the air when suddenly a giant rock falls out of the sky and kills it. The bronze griffon reverts to statue form. You are not a caster.

How do you prevent the statue from breaking upon impact with the ground?

You can spend 10 pp to upgrade your Wayfinder to a Dayfinder. Lets you cast daylight 1/day.

Dayfinder (10 PP): Similar to a normal wayfinder in all external ways, this rare form of wayfinder differs in the potency of its light-emitting abilities. Once per day, the light generated by an active dayfinder replicates a daylight spell for a duration of 1 minute. These powerful tools against darkness are granted to experienced Pathfinders by generous venture-captains, and may only be purchased on the black market within the Society itself, and even then only by exchanging favors—never for gold.

I think the CR is fine as it is. There are some hiccups here and there but that's just part of the Pathfinder charm.

You have to realize that players can create characters that vary wildly in power, while the CR system is adjusted for certain power level and party composition.

Part of the art of GMing is finding out where your players are in comparison to expected power for their level, and then adjust CR from there.

These jokes are usually funny the first two times, when done in succession. After that it starts to become stale really fast for me.

Ah I see, I thought you were one one of those who claimed that RAW, because a sense motive check isn't explicitly stated in the feat, that there is in fact no save. This makes more sense. I would like to see a build though. If I combine that tactic with a sensei, I will basically recreate a very houseruled monk I had back in 3.5, which I would love another go at.

The build would be pretty simple. If you want Sensei, here's the template in how I think I would build such a character:

Human Drunken Master/Sensei
Assuming 10 cha.
Trait: Any of the numerous ones that makes bluff a class skill. This might give a +4 depending on the DM.
Level 1: Racial Heritage (Gnome), Skill Focus: Bluff
Level 3: Power Attack (required if you're melee)
Level 5: Bewildering Koan
Level 7: Deceitful

At level 7 you would have around +19 (or +16) to bluff without items, depending on GM ruling. So if you're fighting a Rakasha (CR10), you'll have a little more than 50% chance of making it lose its turn every round. Becomes worse for it if you add in things like circlet of persuasion.
At level 10 you would have around +27 (or +24) to bluff without items, depending on gm ruling. You'll pretty much shut down a banshee (CR13), while it is a tossup against the Ice Devil (CR13).

I hate item digging, so lets just go with circlet of persuasion, a Mulberry Pentacle Ioun Stone, and a masterwork bluffing tool (I know I know) for an extra +10 to bluff. This would really start pushing monk into having a powerful "save or lose" ability.

The reason why I went with drunken master is because this allows the monk to spend Ki repeatedly without ever running out of Ki.

You got your monk bonus feats and your QingGong swap ins to further customize your monk.

Lotion wrote:

You guys arguing that a monk can't do anything to support the party do know there are builds to support the party right?

Two off the top of my head:
1) Automatically shut down an intelligent foe a round. If properly built, same, it is effectively no save. That means said Balor won't be able to act at all during the three rounds the monk takes to kill it.

2) Automatically allow party to take 20 on initiative. You just won "rocket tag" for your party.

The first one might not be done as often because of player etiquette, but its still there.

about number 1, you know that gets an opposed sense motive check right? the balor has 30 in sense motive. The monk is unlikely to have amazing bluff, although that tactic is amazing for a ninja.

Which is why I said properly built (i.e. dump a whole lot (some would say unreasonable amount) of resources into it). 4 feats and a trait (as a human, 3 feats if gnome; this includes the koan) gives you a base of +35 if you put 20 ranks into it. The rest you'll fill with items. There's also an added benefit of uses in social encounters.

There's a benefit for monks against Ninjas for this feat. Tongue of the Sun and Moon lets the monk talk to any creature with an int score. So creatures like the Tarrasque is automatically shut down.

You guys arguing that a monk can't do anything to support the party do know there are builds to support the party right?

Two off the top of my head:
1) Automatically shut down an intelligent foe a round. If properly built, same, it is effectively no save. That means said Balor won't be able to act at all during the three rounds the monk takes to kill it.

2) Automatically allow party to take 20 on initiative. You just won "rocket tag" for your party.

The first one might not be done as often because of player etiquette, but its still there.

Blood Crow Strike is [evil] and therefore out of reach to most PCs. RAW alignment descriptors may not have any effect except on some divine casters, but most tables don't play that way.

Blood Crow Strike isn't evil anymore.

Anyways, I've GMed for non optimizing players in high level campaigns, with the best player playing a wizard and a barbarian. I've had more trouble with the barbarian than the wizard.

Though I'll agree that a fully optimized party with extreme system mastery would benefit more with full casters.

Your Dex score is treated as zero while paralyzed, which affects those same reflex saves and is again common sense.

But they still allow a reflex save.

There are a lot of things that are common sense that the rules don't support. An advance firearm, rifle, does the same amount of damage as a heavy crossbow, while my common sense says that it should be doing a lot more.

I cannot speak for how it is intended, but most people, including module writers, interpret it as "treat it as though you had a higher strength modifier."

But thinking about it, I can see how a completely new group to Pathfinder could get confused by how its worded, so yeah, throw up the question in a new thread and I'll FAQ it.

I think a good fix would be something a long the lines of "treat as though you have a different ability score total with the exception of gaining new spell slots and per day abilities." This might be closer to how everyone plays it.

As Marthkus pointed out, Empty Body lets the monk Fly. Not as fast as the balor mind you, so I do believe the Balor will eventually beat the core monk AND the core fighter if he has good knowledge of their abilities (only fair, since we're looking at a Balor's stat block, the Balor gets to look at the fighter's and the monk's). Probably by starting with dispel spam on their magical equipment.

Marthkus wrote:

137ben wrote:

Marthkus wrote:

Lotion wrote:

Dabbler wrote:

In fact, the balor's best bet is to keep retreating out of range of the monk and let him charge, then deliver AoO's (he has 20' reach - three AoO's - and the monk can't use Acrobatics on a charge, but the fighter can use Lunge and his reach weapon to reduce the AoOs to one) and single strikes against the monk's reduced AC, while the monk only gets one AoO and one strike, both on 3/4 BAB. The fighter gets only two hits as well, but he does it on his full BAB.

Don't want to get too into this anymore, but I'd just like to comment:

Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

Yep you need mythic powers to strike an opponent with more than 1 AOO per round anyways.

Combat Reflexes is a core, nonmythic feat available from level 1 with no prerequisites.

False, you need mythic combat reflexes to "As a swift action expend one use of mythic power to, until the start of your next turn, make attacks of opportunity against foes you've already made attacks of opportunity against this round if they provoke attacks of opportunity from you by moving"

The feat also gives you unlimited AOOs per round.

The CRB disagrees with you.

CRB wrote:

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity bonus to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

Clarification for both sides: The mythic feat talks about AOOs from moving.

Speed is irrelevant, everyone's flying.

What about a targeted dispel at the boots of flying (or whatever is giving the classes flying)? Though I think this actually gives a slight advantage to the fighter, because he can pick up a bow.

In fact, the balor's best bet is to keep retreating out of range of the monk and let him charge, then deliver AoO's (he has 20' reach - three AoO's - and the monk can't use Acrobatics on a charge, but the fighter can use Lunge and his reach weapon to reduce the AoOs to one) and single strikes against the monk's reduced AC, while the monk only gets one AoO and one strike, both on 3/4 BAB. The fighter gets only two hits as well, but he does it on his full BAB.

Don't want to get too into this anymore, but I'd just like to comment:

Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

Can't speak for Kazaan, but I'm not saying this is RAI. Its written that temporary scores adjustments are tied to specific bonuses. Every 2 temporary increase/decrease nets a +1/-1 to certain abilities.

It leads to some nonsensical interactions (the game is full of those). For example, a weapon finesse dex based character would still gain +1 to hit with a temp 2 str increase. A TWF character will gain +2 damage on offhand weapons with a +4 giant's belt, until he wears it for 24 hours, in which case that damage increase reduces to +1.

But why does this matter so much? Nobody plays it this way, not even in PFS I'd imagine. Just file it under weird Pathfinder rules that everybody ignores.

Kazaan wrote:

Hendelbolaf wrote:

To Kazaan, I think you are way overthinking this. Add the bonus to the ability score and take whatever modifier that gives. Simple, end of story, keep playing.

Keep in mind that A) I didn't come up with all this, I'm just conveying it, B) I don't agree that it's how it should be, and C) Temporary attribute score bonuses, explicitly, do not change your ability score nor your modifier.

I asked before, but do you have a link where a developer confirmed what you are saying? This argument is new to me and runs counter to how I understand the rules for ability score increases as described in the CRB.

Its the same reading that makes it so that an oracle of lore with sidestep secret (cha to ref and ac) will still gain AC and reflex save if they gain a temp bonus to their dex (and the opposite if they take dex damage). Reading wise, I agree with Kazaan. I don't ever play it like this though.

Nicos wrote:

Lormyr wrote:

A gargantuan sized level 20 monk under the effects of strong jaw, which is amazingly easy and reliable to do yourself at that level, inflicts 16d8 damage per unarmed hit before any other modifiers.

Do spell/effects taht increaze sieze stacks?

Almost never. Most spells that increase size are of the Transmutation (polymorph) subschool, which states:

"You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell."

Additionally, most of the common spells used for such things (enlarge person, righteous might, ect.) have this text in their description:

"Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."

The reason that strong jaw works with any size increase is because of it's wording, notably it does not actually increase your size:

"Laying a hand upon an allied creature's jaw, claws, tentacles, or other natural weapons, you enhance the power of that creature's natural attacks. Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is. If the creature is already Gargantuan or Colossal-sized, double the amount of damage dealt by each of its natural attacks instead. This spell does not actually change the creature's size; all of its statistics except the amount of damage dealt by its natural attacks remain unchanged."

A strongly damage max monk [ki mystic/weapon adept/qinggong] would have a Strength of 49:

18 base
2 race
5 level up
6 inherent (orc eldritch heritage)
6 belt
2 weapon adept level 20
10 size from turning into a gargantuan earth elemental

And would run Arcane Strike, Power Attack, Celestial Obedience to shape change into said...

Power attack uses flurry BAB when flurrying. So -2 to attack, +4 to damage.

Edit: its been fixed

Lotion wrote:

Raith Shadar wrote:

So every build requires Quingong with Spell-like abilities?

Do inquisitors cast spells?

Without an archetype.

Quote:

Do non CRB rangers rely on instant enemy?

Without an archetype.

Quote:

But sure. Remove qigong. You lose: 5 AC from bark skin and battlemind link. Spend all your Ki for +4 AC instead. Your battlefield presence is still there. You don't lose dimensional assault from losing Qigong. Qigong just makes it so that you have more options. I thought you got bored of the fighter that only two hand attacks?

Anyways, I forgot to mention that I'm also packing Dazing Assault. So I can teleport and full round dazing assault. This can be done with a non-archetype monk.

And the two-handed fighter can Whirlwind Dazing Assault with Lunge while enlarged.

I've only made one fighter. It was a two-weapon fighter. The two-hander was another guy's character. I don't play fighters as my main. Too boring.

I don't play monks too often either. Too boring as well. For all the builds you guys are posting, they're still not versatile enough to interest me. They require far too much time buffing and prepping to get everything going. Same type of problem the Inquisitor has.

I plotted out a Dimensional Assault one trick pony. A lot of feats to get that build going. He doesn't do so hot at lower level. You basically spend a ton of time waiting to get Abundant Step. It's so easy to plan out a great monk at lvl 20, but the reality is you have to play him to that level and make him viable as you do.

That's one of the reasons the fighters I ran with were so effective. They were ready to go when the battled started. Waded in Dazing Assaulting and killing on round one. No wasted standard actions buffing themselves up. Let the casters buff him while he went to work.

And the monk does it by attempting to daze 9 enemies within 180 feet. Without an archetype.

Also, why does these take too long to buff? These are essentially always on buffs. You reapply Battlemind Link every 20 minutes and Barkskin every 2 hours. You have an unlimited pool of Ki to do this with.

And what's wrong with buffing monk with an archetype that stacks with every single other monk archetype combination out there? The Qigong is meant to be a customization option for monk.

The ranger was buffed with ranger specific spells.

The barbarian was buffed with barbarian specific rage powers.

What's wrong with the monk being buffed with customization options? Would it make you feel better if they added this in Ultimate Magic and said "instead of slow fall, you may pick this ability instead" without calling it an archetype?

Lotion, something you might consider for a pure face beater monk at that level is ki mystic archetype. At 19 they get a stellar melee power:

Mystic Persistence (Su): At 19th level, a ki mystic can create an aura once per day as a swift action at the cost of at least 2 points of ki. The aura emanates out to a 20-foot radius. The monk and all allies within the aura can roll two dice when making an attack roll or a saving throw and take the better result. The aura lasts for 1 round, plus an additional round for every 2 ki points spent when the monk created the aura. The monk can dismiss the aura at any time as a free action, but the ki points for the full duration of the aura are lost. This ability replaces empty body.

This was a hidden gem on the no gear halfling that a lot of folks probably also didn't realize.

Ha ha. Oh wow I can't believe I missed that. I'll have to see how those archetypes mix.

But yeah, I can never make a pure beater, I always like to splash a little utility in.

So every build requires Quingong with Spell-like abilities?

Do inquisitors cast spells?

But sure. Remove qigong. You lose: 5 AC from bark skin and battlemind link. Spend all your Ki for +4 AC instead. Your battlefield presence is still there. You don't lose dimensional assault from losing Qigong. Qigong just makes it so that you have more options. I thought you got bored of the fighter that only two hand attacks?

Anyways, I forgot to mention that I'm also packing Dazing Assault. So I can teleport and full round dazing assault. This can be done with a non-archetype monk.

Male Human Monk (Drunken Master, Weapon Adept, Qigong) 20
LN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +14; Senses Perception +32
Temporary Bonuses Applied Barkskin,

DEFENSE
AC 51, touch 38, flat-footed 37 (+8 *Bracers of Armor, +8 Dex, +8 wis, +5 deflection, +1 dodge, +5 monk, +5 bark skin, +1 ioun stone)
hp 193 (20d8)+100
Fort +22, Ref +26, Will +26

Speed 90 ft. (18 squares), Abundant Step, Fast Movement
Flurry of blows calculation (20 + 1 WF, +13 str, +5 amulet, +1 ioun stone, -2 flurry) = 38
Damage Calculation (+13 str, +6 dragon style, + 12 power attack, +5 weapon enchant, +2 weapon specialization)
Melee flurry of blows +38/+38/+33/+33/+28/+23/+18 (2d10+26/19-20)
With Power Attack +32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17 (2d10+38/19-20)
Face 5 ft. Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +15; CMB +33 (+35 disarm) (+35 grapple); CMD 66 (68 vs disarm) (68  vs grapple)

Abilities
Str 36, Dex 26, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 26, Cha 8

Special Qualities
Abundant Step, AC Bonus, Barkskin, Battlemind Link, Bonus Feat, Cloak of Winds, Drunken Courage, Drunken Ki, Drunken Resilience, Drunken Strength, Evasion, Fast Movement, Firewater Breath, Maneuver Training, Perfect Strike, Pure Power, Skilled, Uncanny Initiative, Way of the Weapon Master,

Feats
Blind-Fight, Bodyguard, Combat Reflexes, Dazing Assault, Deflect Arrows, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, Dimensional Dervish, Dodge, Dragon Ferocity, Dragon Style, Improved Initiative, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Perfect Strike, Power Attack, Stunning Fist

Trait
Fortified Drinker, Reactionary

Skills:
Acrobatics +32; Appraise +1; Climb +20; Craft (Untrained) +1; Escape Artist +18; Fly +9; Heal +9; Intimidate +4; Knowledge (Religion) +13; Perception +32; Ride +9; Sense Motive +32; Stealth +32; Survival +9; Swim +18;

Possessions amulet of mighty fists +5; headband of inspired wisdom +6; bracers of armor +8; ring of protection +5; belt of physical perfection +6; cloak of resistance +5; ioun stone, dusty rose prism; ioun stone, iridescent spindle; ioun stone, pale green prism; manual of gainful exercise (+5); manual of quickness of action (+4); tome of understanding (+4);

With the combination of Drunken Ki and Battlemind Link, you can keep this buff up forever for you and your whole party. With uncanny initiative, you can always choose to roll a 20 on initiative, which results in your whole party rolling a 20. Congrats, your whole team goes first.

Things to do in battle:
Abundant Step and then flurry for a decent amount of damage using dimensional dervish, can use Ki for one extra attack, if hasted, gain one more.

Fun things you can do:
True Strike lasts until your next attack. Abundant Step next to a balor and disarm him with a +59 to CMB with your first attack. If you beat his CMD by 10, both his weapons are disarmed and flies 15 feet away.

You can also abundant step next to the wizard and use steal combat maneuver to take his spell component pouch. Or you can rob the cleric of his holy symbol.

Final Notes:
Not only can you be up there and fight decently, you also provide your party with the ability to go first in each combat. You can also do some neat guaranteed combat maneuvers with your first attack, if that's what you're into. My gear is as generic as you can get.

Roleplaying Notes:
You're a drunken master who worships Caiden. Bring a lot of beer to the table and take a drink every time you drink 5 beers in game. Everything should roleplay itself afterwards.

PS:
I did this while not being able to sleep. I'm sure there are mistakes in there, feel free to point them out to me

Lotion wrote:

proftobe wrote:

Lotion wrote:

Raith Shadar wrote:

At the moment Lormyr has proven that taking Crane Style is a must for every monk. That's about it. I already knew that. Maybe Snake Style would do in a pinch for the pure unarmed guys.

If Crane Style is the primary ability making the monk effective in PvP versus the fighter, then the fighter can take Crane as well. I'll whip up a defensive fighter and see how they compare. Then they can spend hours missing each other.

Except the monk also scorching rays for 12d6 damage followed by a swift action cold ice strike for 15d6 damage a round, for around three rounds if my ki calculations is correct. The totals 81d6 damage, assuming no misses or saves of course. That averages to 283.5 damage. After that he's out of juice, unless he has a way of restoring Ki (there's several).

Then he'd find out one of the reasons blaster wizards lose power as they level. Elemental resistance and immunity(especially to fire) aren't common at 20th level. They're damn near ubiquitous. Also unlike the blaster you can't take the elemental feat or use a rod to change energy type. Its a great use of equipment, but you could literally take that same list of equipment only switching out a few items for their fighter equivalents who fights with a bashing shield can use all of those things just as easily getting an AC that is within a few of yours either way. He's also be doing more damage and while his saves wouldn't be as immaculate, they'd be good enough and he could be buffed, but you wont see it because that build is so focused on defense and the fighter knows that a dead enemy can't hit you either.

But this was a discussion of a 1v1 fight between the monk and the fighter, no? You might have missed it, but someone issued that challenge of a no gear 1v1 fight. Now, that really isn't indicative of anything powerwise, and you would be silly to believe that, but that was the challenge.

Here's the problem I've been

...

The barbarian I was DMing for was a RageScythePounce barbarian before RangeLancePounce was even a thing on the forums. I got creative sometimes and shut in down because it wasn't full on optimized, but yeah, they're a beasts. Although I'm pretty stingy loot wise and use a lot of terrain, so that helped a lot.

I'll see if I can get to a monk tomorrow. Would a combat maneuver monk fit what you want, or do you just want damage? I build all my damage monks as weapon monks (lots of martial arts teaches weapon styles as well), so an unarmed damage monk would be an exercise for me. I asked about combat maneuver monk mainly because I've been trying to think of how to make one.

Lotion wrote:

Raith Shadar wrote:

At the moment Lormyr has proven that taking Crane Style is a must for every monk. That's about it. I already knew that. Maybe Snake Style would do in a pinch for the pure unarmed guys.

If Crane Style is the primary ability making the monk effective in PvP versus the fighter, then the fighter can take Crane as well. I'll whip up a defensive fighter and see how they compare. Then they can spend hours missing each other.

Except the monk also scorching rays for 12d6 damage followed by a swift action cold ice strike for 15d6 damage a round, for around three rounds if my ki calculations is correct. The totals 81d6 damage, assuming no misses or saves of course. That averages to 283.5 damage. After that he's out of juice, unless he has a way of restoring Ki (there's several).

Then he'd find out one of the reasons blaster wizards lose power as they level. Elemental resistance and immunity(especially to fire) aren't common at 20th level. They're damn near ubiquitous. Also unlike the blaster you can't take the elemental feat or use a rod to change energy type. Its a great use of equipment, but you could literally take that same list of equipment only switching out a few items for their fighter equivalents who fights with a bashing shield can use all of those things just as easily getting an AC that is within a few of yours either way. He's also be doing more damage and while his saves wouldn't be as immaculate, they'd be good enough and he could be buffed, but you wont see it because that build is so focused on defense and the fighter knows that a dead enemy can't hit you either.

But this was a discussion of a 1v1 fight between the monk and the fighter, no? You might have missed it, but someone issued that challenge of a no gear 1v1 fight. Now, that really isn't indicative of anything powerwise, and you would be silly to believe that, but that was the challenge.

Here's the problem I've been having: the goalposts keeps getting moved.
Are we comparing the power of naked classes?
Are we comparing the power of naked classes and see how that works vs balors?
Are we comparing the power of naked classes that would work at all levels, 1-20?
Are we comparing the power of geared classes that only uses CRB gear?
Are we comparing the power of geared classes that only uses hardcover gear?
Are we comparing the power of classes only at their power at level 20?
Are we comparing the power of classes in games that Raith plays?
Are we comparing the power of classes in games that Lormyr plays?

Which one is it? So far only OP, Nicos and Lormyr has posted a full build. When Lormyr posted his build I tried to build a fighter using his game assumptions. When Raith posted a theoretical fighter I tried to make a theoretical Monk using his assumptions.

Lormyr and Raith both claims they played their characters from 1-20 (well, 1-19 for Lormyr), so obviously, their builds aren't theoretical builds on the internet that never sees the light of day. Lormyr's games allows more source books than Raiths.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, it will help if Raith posts his build, so we know what assumptions we're working with here.

At the moment Lormyr has proven that taking Crane Style is a must for every monk. That's about it. I already knew that. Maybe Snake Style would do in a pinch for the pure unarmed guys.

If Crane Style is the primary ability making the monk effective in PvP versus the fighter, then the fighter can take Crane as well. I'll whip up a defensive fighter and see how they compare. Then they can spend hours missing each other.

Except the monk also scorching rays for 12d6 damage followed by a swift action cold ice strike for 15d6 damage a round, for around three rounds if my ki calculations is correct. The totals 81d6 damage, assuming no misses or saves of course. That averages to 283.5 damage. After that he's out of juice, unless he has a way of restoring Ki (there's several).