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They can break some rules, but not all rules!
They still require a Craft feat, still require spells to be cast as part of the crafting process if the item has a spell-like ability.
These special items don't ignore all the rules, they just have to use judgement calls to set abilities and prices for items that aren't easily replicated by the usual formula.
It's in our nature to try and understand stuff. We naturally try to reverse-engineer special weapons and armour. Sometimes we can, or think we can (mithral full plate of speed). Sometimes our efforts are futile. But things aren't completely divorced from the assumptions of the game. Craft skills etc. are still required, +4 special items will still be more expensive than +3 items calculated by the formula, and so on.
So, yes, we are going to try to understand Celestial Armour. And it seems to stretch the bounds of credibility that it's not made of mithral (mileage varies, of course). Because not only are the stats so similar to mithral, but also because if it isn't made of mithral then you could enchant a set of mithral chain and have the abilities stack! Who thinks that is a good idea?
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We aren't told what 'special' properties silver or gold gives armour, but I doubt that it makes the armour lighter than the steel version!
Actually, gold is described in UC:
The rules shown are for the rare item constructed entirely of gold rather than being gold-plated. Gold-plated items triple the base cost of weapons and armor and have the same properties as the item the gold is plating. Items constructed purely of gold cost 10 times the normal cost for items of their type. Gold items weigh 50% more than typical weapons or armor of their type.
Weapons Gold is often too soft to hold a decent edge, but light weapons that do piercing or slashing damage can be constructed of gold or some nearly gold alloy. They take a –2 penalty on damage rolls (minimum 1 damage). Gold weapons have a hardness of half their base weapons' and also have the fragile quality.
Armor Gold can be fashioned into light or medium metal armor. The softness and the weight of the metal decrease the armor/shield bonus by 2, and increase the armor check penalty by 2. Gold armor has a hardness of 5.
Thus why I said that if it is made of gold, then the metal has undergone some major mystical enhancements to overcome the horrible penalties: 150% weight of the original item, decrease of the AC bonus, and increase of the ACP.
Plus, celestial armor doesn't mention that it ups the hardness of the metal, so if it is actually made of gold, and not just plated in it, then good luck keeping it past the first sunder attempt with a hardness of 5...
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Xaratherus, one thing to keep in mind is that that book wasn't out when the ruling was given. In Core, Gold and mundane Silver have no special properties. Then, too, keep in mind that the item is a holdover from 3.X days, so that book really wasn't out yet.
As for making it out of gold or silver instead of mithral, it might be that you need one of those two precious materials to hold the specific enchantments that make up Celestial Armor. It may be a conductivity issue. Who knows? And it doesn't say if it is solid or plate, so I can't speak for that. Personally, I've always assumed solid, and chalked up the weight/hardness issue to special magic.
Somewhere on the boards, there is a semi-official reverse-engineer of te "Celestial" component of Celestial Armor. No time to look for it now, but I'm sure you can in snot if you look.
Xaratherus, one thing to keep in mind is that that book wasn't out when the ruling was given. In Core, Gold and mundane Silver have no special properties. Then, too, keep in mind that the item is a holdover from 3.X days, so that book really wasn't out yet.
And UCamp wasn't out when JJ mistakenly said that celestial armor couldn't be enchanted further, and because of UCamp he was wrong. So... I'm not certain why people are taking his statement that it's gold (not silver - in his follow-up statement he says specifically that it's gold) as canon. *shrug*
Again, I don't think it's mithral, and I don't think that the idea that it's gold is borne out by any evidence. I think that saying anything beyond what JJ said about it being a unique style of armor is pure speculation, and quoting those speculations as 'fact' is overreaching.
You are missing the point, it doesn't matter if it is a cut and paste, and this isn't about Golarion. This is Pathfinder, not D&D 3.X. I've seen too many posts here where someone says "this is what it was in 3.X, so therefore it has to be that in Pathfinder." Then one of the Devs posts that it isn't what it was in D&D 3.X, but is this in Pathfinder.You're absolutely right, Vod. I did miss that point entirely.
You might want to read the description of Celestial Armor completely before you go about trying to make it.
This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
The base armor of Celestial Armor, isn't worth anything as armor. Since regular chainmail, whether iron, steel, cold iron, mitril, darkwood, or other materials can't be worn under normal clothes without betraying it's presence, then perhaps there is something different going on here.
So what you need is 20 lbs of gold or silver (at 50 coins per pound) that is 1000 gp or sp of materials, and the following qualifications: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, fly, creator must be good;
So what you need is a good silver or gold smith to create the chainmail, and a good "magic user" with Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and a good source for the fly spell.
@Vod: You'll need to figure out what else has to be done with it, because as I pointed out, the properties of gold as a material do not calculate out in any way to look like the properties of celestial armor - like the excessive weight and the increased armor check penalty.
An item of made of gold, by RAW, does not weigh less - it weighs more; an item made out of gold, by RAW, does not have a decreased armor check penalty - it has an increased penalty. And an item made out of gold, by RAW, wouldn't be worth buying at such a cost as celestial armor, because it could be sundered by a gnome using reduce person wielding a cotton swab*.
*Yeah, it's an exaggeration. But gold armor has a hardness of 5. At the level where you can afford celestial armor, you'd have your armor sundered without the attacker even really trying.
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@Vod: You'll need to figure out what else has to be done with it, because as I pointed out, the properties of gold as a material do not calculate out in any way to look like the properties of celestial armor - like the excessive weight and the increased armor check penalty.
An item of made of gold, by RAW, does not weigh less - it weighs more; an item made out of gold, by RAW, does not have a decreased armor check penalty - it has an increased penalty. And an item made out of gold, by RAW, wouldn't be worth buying at such a cost as celestial armor, because it could be sundered by a gnome using reduce person wielding a cotton swab*.
*Yeah, it's an exaggeration. But gold armor has a hardness of 5. At the level where you can afford celestial armor, you'd have your armor sundered without the attacker even really trying.
Again, Celestial Armor drastically predates Gold having any particular item properties. Drastically so. It's not unreasonable to assume that during the process of being magically enhanced, it could be magically hardened as well. The process for making Celestial Armor is still relatively unknown. And if it's fine enough to fit under clothing, it would make sense that it has been magically strengthened to be superior to normal armor of equivalent wear.
@Vod: since mithral chain can be worn under clothes, especially a mithral shirt, since....Frodo found one in Moria(!), and the chances of 20lbs of solid gold chainmail being subtle are slim to none (and slim just left town!), forgive me if I remain unconvinced!
Pathfinder isn't Tolkien! If it was then Goblins and Orcs would be the same thing.
Is there some reason why you keep referencing things other than the Pathfinder rules?
Mithral: Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than steel but just as hard. When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).
An item made from mithral weighs half as much as the same item made from other metals. In the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapon's size category or the ease with which it can be wielded (whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed). Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a quarterstaff cannot.) Mithral weapons count as silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.
Mithral has 30 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 15.
Where does it say, as it does in the definition of Celestial Armor, that Mithril Armor can be worn under clothing?
@ Xaratherus - It's magic. Or rather it is part of the enchanting process by a Good caster. Some God must be doing something. I would point out to you that the description of the Celestial Armor defines what it is, and that is not Steel Chainmail made out of Gold, but "chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence." Since it is made out of Gold or Silver not Steel or Iron, it must be lighter and not useful as armor without the enchantments.
Again, Celestial Armor drastically predates Gold having any particular item properties. Drastically so. It's not unreasonable to assume that during the process of being magically enhanced, it could be magically hardened as well. The process for making Celestial Armor is still relatively unknown. And if it's fine enough to fit under clothing, it would make sense that it has been magically strengthened to be superior to normal armor of equivalent wear.
Then Craft Arms and Armor, being Good, and casting Fly are far more powerful than I ever before assumed.
Sorry, I'm tetchy because it seems like you're not bothering to read what I've said. I've said numerous times - even in the post to which you responded - exactly what you just said.
Thus why I said that if it is made of gold, then the metal has undergone some major mystical enhancements to overcome the horrible penalties: 150% weight of the original item, decrease of the AC bonus, and increase of the ACP.
@Vod: You'll need to figure out what else has to be done with it...
The fact that I continue on as if it's not made of gold is because I don't believe anyone's presented enough evidence that it's made of actual gold. "This bright silver or gold..." can refer to color of metal rather than the actual type of material. And while I respect JJ, he was wrong about one of the rules surrounding this very armor in the same thread; based on the rules as they exist now, I think he's wrong on this as well.
In this case, I think the simpler answer is that the armor is made of a material that is not outlined anywhere in the books. At least to me it seems simpler, because the alternative would require an errata of the requirements to make the armor (or to assume that the requirements to make a magic item will not even halfway accurately reflect the end product).
@ Xaratherus - It's magic. Or rather it is part of the enchanting process by a Good caster. Some God must be doing something. I would point out to you that the description of the Celestial Armor defines what it is, and that is not Steel Chainmail made out of Gold, but "chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence." Since it is made out of Gold or Silver not Steel or Iron, it must be lighter and not useful as armor without the enchantments.
So then you're of the camp that the requirements for an item will not (or should not) at least attempt to reflect the necessary abilities that go into the end product?
That's really my biggest sticking point here. You can look at many (most) of the magical items and get some sense how the various requirements fit together into the final product. That simply is not hte case here, by any stretch of the imagination, if it truly is made out of gold (or silver - or, if JJ is right, then silver-colored gold, somehow).
I don't like it, because it means that the whole concept of requirements for a magic item are arbitrary in rules terms and follow no in-game logic.
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I see your point. And I didn't mean to sound like I hadn't read your points. I had, and I was agreeing with those points. To be fair, there has never been true logic behind Celestial Armor. It's always defied the creation rules. The same way that Elven Chain is the one exception to the Mithral Armor proficiency rule, and always has been, yet there's no reason for it (or did they change this proficiency thing recently?). Mithral doesn't change the proficiency level of armor to my knowledge, yet Elven Chain does, without cause. Not every specific item makes sense, even though most do. Certain abilities don't have true prices that can be matched. The boons granted by Celestial are among those.
And his posts weren't, at the time, wrong. The were only made so 2-3 years after the fact by a book that hadn't even been truly conceived yet. I'm not seeing anything in that thread to indicate that he was wrong in any way about Celestial Armor, unless you'd care to point me?
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Yes. The Fellowship just didn't know about it until it saved his life in Moria.@Vod: since mithral chain can be worn under clothes, especially a mithral shirt, since....Frodo found one in Moria(!)Didn't Bilbo find it in Smaug's hoard (or the dwarves gave it to him as a reward, don't remember exactly) and gave it to Frodo when he gave him Sting?
Yeah, Gandalf found out about it in Moria when it saved Frodo's life. Brain melt. : )
Anyway, Tolkien invented mithril. Not D&D, not Pathfinder. Tolkien. Gygax changed the second 'i' to an 'a' as a defence against the Tolkien estate, and the game stats of mithral reflect its description in Tolkien: light, can be worn under clothes, etc.
It's delusional to believe that PF's mithral has no relation to Tolkien, and it's delusional to pretend that the Celestial Armour described in the PF CRB has no relation to the Celestial Armour described in the 3.0 and 3.5 PHBs.
PF introduced the idea that mithral armour counts as one category lighter for all purposes except for proficiency. In 3rd ed, it counted as one category lighter for all purposes, including proficiency. Celestial Armour (and Elven Chain) were both written with that assumption, so it wasn't a special quality then.
I don't blame people for trying to understand why Celestial Armour is the way it is, but some arguments hold more weight than others. Understanding it as made from mithral is supported by the game stats and the rules for magic item construction. Opposing that, all we have is an idea plucked out of thin air creating a 'rule' that, unlike the rest of the game system, this enchantment doesn't have to be laid on actual armour, and ignores the non-magical properties of that material, and somehow inexplicably changes those qualities to be like...mithral!
Oh, and new rule, these enchantments only work on gold...!
Just because there are two sides to an argument doesn't make each case equally credible!
When Celestial Armour says 'This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail...', it means it's silver or gold coloured, not made of silver or gold elemental metal.
When Celestial Armor says 'This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail...', its meaning is ambiguous. It could mean that the Celestial Armor is the color silver or the color gold or it could mean that the Celestial Armor is made out of the metal silver or the metal gold. You support the former argument, but the latter argument holds equal weight (and is the one supported by this post from James Jacobs, the Creative Director).
It's made of mithral, and has the same stats as mithral, with the exception of an extra unexplained +4 to max Dex.
While it is ambiguous whether the Celestial Armor is made out of gold/silver or merely gold/silver colored, there is no mention anywhere in its description, construction, or anywhere else of mithral. If the Celestial Armor is made of gold/silver, than it definitively can't be made out of mithral. If the Celestial Armor is gold/silver colored, then it is still unlikely to be made out of mithral, which is described as a "silvery, glistening metal" and not gold colored at all.
I don't blame people for trying to understand why Celestial Armour is the way it is, but some arguments hold more weight than others. Understanding it as made from mithral is supported by the game stats and the rules for magic item construction. Opposing that, all we have is an idea plucked out of thin air creating a 'rule' that, unlike the rest of the game system, this enchantment doesn't have to be laid on actual armour, and ignores the non-magical properties of that material, and somehow inexplicably changes those qualities to be like...mithral!
Oh, and new rule, these enchantments only work on gold...!
Just because there are two sides to an argument doesn't make each case equally credible!
If Celestial Armor were merely +3 mithral chainmail that allowed fly on command, it would have a maximum dexterity bonus of +4, arcane spell failure chance of 20 %, and would require medium armor proficiency to avoid taking a -2 on attack rolls as well as on all dexterity- and strength-based ability and skill checks. However, Celestial Armor has a maximum dexterity bonus of +8, arcane spell failure chance of 15%, and is considered light armor, with no caveats for proficiency. The game stats do not support Celestial Armor being made of mithral.
In the end, why does it matter? This argument started because someone brought up celestial mithral, a special material from a 3rd party publisher, which is definitely not used in creating Celestial Armor.
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Don't forget the Celestial Plate Armor. Also, per RAW can you enchant it to be higher than +3 and add other armor special abilities? Or is that just a common house rule?
About the FAQ. I like it. I am perfectly okay with mithril being expensive, although it is far cheaper on smaller weapons. Personally I think adamant has the problem were every weapon costs +3,000gp regardless of the size. How does that make sense?
How much is the material for an adamant dagger? 3,000gp
How much is the material for an adamant great sword? 3,000gp
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For some more fuel for the fire... the Celestial Shield
For my home games I say that Celestial Armor is made from mithral ingots that were refined on the Celestial planes and is accented with gold also refined on the Celestial planes.
If Celestial armor is not mithral, what is the hardness and HPs of Celestial Armor?
Also, what kind of protection does it provide if you walk into an anti-magic field? Does it suddenly start to encumber and protect as if was ridiculously thin, unenchanted gold armor? That is to say, heavy and virtually no protection at all?
Edit: Oh, and Frodo's mithril shirt was also so valuable that it was worth more than the entire net worth of the Shire.
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If you type 'Mithril' into Wikipedia it takes you to the Tolkien creation. It notes that other games have used the idea and modelled their own metal on that, and that they frequently change the spelling when they do.
If you type 'Mithral' it takes you straight to 'Mithri.
Moria was the only third-age source of mithril, and when Moria was producing it mithril was worth ten times its weight in gold. After the dwarves had to abandon Moria new mithral production stopped and it became priceless. That's why Frodo's mithril shirt was worth the whole Shire and everything in it. In our games mithral is still being produced and so you can get a mithral shirt for 1100gp.
You can wear any mithral light mail under clothing. This includes mail that would be medium if it were made of steel. Mithral full plate doesn't qualify.
Special materials have always been priced by how useful they are to adventurers! When mithral stats were presented in 3.0 they didn't expect weapons to be made from mithral. If the amount of metal determined the price then no-one could afford Daern's Instant Fortress!
It doesn't, but Malachi is too stubborn to listen to reason and now that the purpose of the thread is fulfilled no one cares enough to stop it from derailing the thread.
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At this point then, we might as well be discussing where on the periodic table Mithral belongs, and what it's atomic number is.
Can it be described as a transition metal?
Does it have a high electrical, and thermal conductivity?
What is the density of Mithral?
Is it radioactive in any way?
Is it a platinum group metal?
Does it have a high refractive index?
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I don't think so.
Celestial armor isn't defined as having been made of mithril, despite being half weight. Its reduced weight is due to magic though I believe.
Its enchanted with the fly spell for 1 casting a day on command, and has the side effect of behaving as if it were mithril and lighter. it has a much better max dexterty check than mithril chainmail too, and a lower spell failure and armor check penalty..
I can't find any actual description that mentions mithril specifically to it at all.
Its possible it uses celestial mithril though.
its +3 enchantment costs 9,000gp, its fly enchantment costs 8400, so thats 5000gp left over for the armor itself.
I believe originally celestial armor was described as being made of fine links of 'silver or gold', so its not actually made of celestial mithril unless they changed it...
Angel, Solar
Solars are the greatest type of angel, usually serving at the right hand of a deity or championing a cause that benefits an entire world or plane. A typical solar looks roughly human, though some physically resemble other humanoid races and a rare few have even more unusual forms. A solar stands about 9 feet tall and weighs about 500 pounds, with a strong, commanding voice that is impossible to ignore. Most have silvery or golden skin.
Azata, Bralani
Silver-white hair the color of a lightning strike whips about this poised elf-like archer, his eyes swirling with vibrant colors.
From this, I take it that "good" makes it have the color silver or gold. Skin is not metal, nor is hair.
The cost breakdown for Celestial Armor is this:
Price: 22,400
Cost: 11,350
Added value by magic: 22,400 - 11,350 = 11,050
Total value of magic: 11,050 * 2 = 22,100
Mundane cost: 22,400 - 22,100 = 300
Masterwork component: 150
Base armor: 300 - 150 = 150 = standard Chainmail armor
The cost breakdown for Celestial Plate Armor is this:
Price: 25,000
Cost: 12,500
Added value by magic: 25,000 - 12,500 = 12,500
Total value of magic: 12,500 * 2 = 25,000
Mundane cost: 25,000 - 25,000 = 0
Seems there is no mundane component
The cost breakdown for Celestial Shield is this:
Price: 13,170
Cost: 6,670
Added value by magic: 13,170 - 6,670 = 6,500
Total value of magic: 6,500 * 2 = 13,000
Mundane cost: 13,170 - 13,000 = 170
Masterwork component: 150
Base armor: 170 - 150 = 20 = standard Heavy Steel Shield
Well, the plate armor looks incorrectly priced by not having a mundane cost. However, the mundane cost of the other two seem to be based off of normal steel.
What does Celestial give you?
Max Dex increased by (8 vs 2) 6, (6 vs 1) 5, (- vs -) -
ACP reduced by (-5 vs -2) 3, (-6 vs -3) 3, (-2 vs 0) 2
ASF reduced by (30% vs 15%) 15%, (35% vs 20%) 15%, (15% vs 0%) 15%
It seems it gives a Max Dex increase of 5 or 6, reduce ACP by 3 with a cap of 0, and reduce ASF by 15%
It also gives Fly, Feather Fall, or Overland flight 1/day.
They all are half normal weight.
The armors also makes the proficiency needed change.
Celestial Armor also allows you to wear it hidden.
With two of three breakdowns showing steel as the base, I think it really is steel, with the goodness giving the color.
/cevah
PS: Flight 1/day is 5,400 not 8,400 leaving 8,000 not 5,000 accounted for.
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In the 3.5 DMG Celestial Armour has exactly the same properties as in the PF CRB. It even has the same price: 22,400.
But its cost is 12,550.
Added value by magic: 22,400 - 12,550 = 9,850
Total value of magic: 9,850*2 = 19,700
Mundane cost: 22,400 - 19,700 = 2,700
If mwk component is part of mundane price (like mithral or adamantine), base armour = 2,700
If mwk component costs 150, then mundane component = 2,550
Base armour...?
Mithral would be 4,150
Adamantine would be 10,150
I no longer own my 3.0 DMG, but I have memories of trying to reverse engineer Celestial Armour in 3.0 and failing.
Many of the earlier special armour and weapon prices seem out of whack. PF has revised the cost, trying to make sense of that which doesn't. But they price the base armour as steel.
If that's the case, and we take this as evidence that the PF version has the Celestial Armour enchantment laid on mwk steel chainmail (reasonable, given the evidence), then the 'gold or silver' is just colour.
And if that's the case, then I'll lay the enchantment on mithral chainmail instead.
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You can wear any mithral light mail under clothing. This includes mail that would be medium if it were made of steel. Mithral full plate doesn't qualify.I'm gonna need you to cite this, please. My readings of mithral in the rules make no mention of this outside of celestial chain.
This comes from 2nd Ed.
This is magical armor so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without revealing its presence. Its lightness and flexibility allow even bards and thieves to use it with few restrictions (see Chapter 3 in the PHB). Elven fighter/mages use it without restriction. However, it is rarely sized to fit anyone other than an elf or a half-elf. Roll percentile dice and consult the following table to ascertain what size character elven chain mail will fit:
D100 Roll Size of Elven Chain Mail
01-10 gnome/halfling (hairfoot)
11-15 dwarf/halfling (Stout or Tallfellow)
16-80 elf/half-elf
81-95 man-sized, normal (up to 6 feet, 200 lbs.)
96-00 man-sized, large (up to 6½ feet, 250 lbs.)
Mithral is only mentioned once in the 2ed DMG, under Chime of Opening.
3.5 does not mention wearing under clothes.
/cevah