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| 106 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Question: What is the price of a medium-sized Mithral dagger?
252gp? Or 502gp?
For the last four years people have been asking in this forum how to calculate the price of Mithral items. Do you base the cost off of the original, non-Mithral weight? Or the final, lesser, Mithral weight?
When Ultimate Equipment was released it contained some Mithral items that appear to have been priced off of the lesser weight, but when you refer to earlier examples, such as the Wreath of Blades spell from Ultimate Combat, it appears that Mithral prices were (at one time) based off of the original item weight.
This most certainly qualifies as a Frequently Asked Question, as can be seen from the discussions HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE and HERE, and in many, many other threads. Wouldn't you agree?
Cast your votes below!
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The last thread we had with a name like this was the Synthesist thread.
The synthesist was then banned from PFS.
Admit it Nefreet: you're just trying to ban mithral from PFS.
(FAQd)
I've always played it based on the description of Mithral.
500gp per pound.
If I buy a 1 pound mithral statue, it's worth how much? 500gp.
If I buy a 1 pound mithral sword, how much mithral is in it? 500gp worth.
At best tangentially related, but I've already FAQed it. Now that Pathfinder has an effect for weapons made out of mithral, I wonder why they didn't just make it a flat price for weapons, like +500 or +1,000.
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At best tangentially related, but I've already FAQed it. Now that Pathfinder has an effect for weapons made out of mithral, I wonder why they didn't just make it a flat price for weapons, like +500 or +1,000.
Gah, no.
I wish they'd gone the other way and made Adamantine by the pound. It would make more sense.
As it is, Full Plate Adamantine costs the same, for the adamantine, as Banded Mail. That's 15 pounds difference in armor weight, but the same price. The cost of Adamantine for a Dagger (2 lbs of metal) is the same as a Harpoon (18 lbs of metal).
And there's no relation between weapon cost for Adamantine and Armor cost. Blech.
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I can't recall now how much Mithral cost in 2nd Edition, but throughout 3rd and 3.5 if you wanted a Mithral dagger, it was priced at 502gp.
If Pathfinder wishes to go the route of pricing items based on their newer, lesser weight, my only suggestion would be to still make Mithral weapons cost a minimum of 300gp+weapon cost, since Mithral is considered masterwork. That would eliminate the small-sized Mithral dagger costing 127gp, when a masterwork steel dagger costs 302gp.
32 FAQ hits so far! Here's the beginning tally:
People that believe the price of a Mithral dagger is 252gp: 1
People that believe the price of a Mithral dagger is 502gp: 1Couldn't quite tell what mdt's vote was...
Where does everyone else stand?
My personal feeling is that this is how it should work...
The price of an item is the cheapest price that covers both the material and masterwork price.
So, my personal belief is that a Mithral Dagger should cost 302 (the same as a MW dagger).
In my opinion the 'price-by-adjusted-weight' doesn't make sense.
As a trade good, 1 lb mithral costs 500.
Transferring this price directly to an item made from mithral, like the mithral dagger for 252, gives the item a selling price equal to the material cost.
This makes it impossible to make a profit making items from mithral, despite the additional effort it takes to make them.
Based on this, my vote is clearly on 502 gp for a mithral dagger (eventhough this is not entirely consistant with the crafting rules).
500gp for 1 pound of new weight
minimum weight is 1 pound
Mithral Dagger - 502gp
Mithral Longsword - 1015gp
Mithral Signet Ring - 505gp
this is how i rule it. FAQ would be nice tho.
500gp for 1 pound of new weight
minimum weight is 1 pound for weapons, 1/50th of a pound for ammunition.
Mithral Dagger - 502gp
Mithral Longsword - 1015gp
I like this (with bolded changes).
Small MW Dagger 302gp vs. Small Mithril Dagger 127gp??
But..
MW Silver Warhammer 402gp vs. Mithril Warhammer 2612gp? Way too expensive for only a hardness increase. 6000gp for a Mithril Greataxe?
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I would prefer them to rule it as being 252gp, and will cast my vote there, because it makes more RP sense to me that an item that ways 1/2 a pound is worth 1/2 a pound of mithral+the price of the item. Now, that said, I will say that, as this ruling looks like it can go either way, the 252 ruling is much more powerful than the 502 ruling, so I am fairly certain that the result will be the 502 result.
I would prefer them to rule it as being 252gp, and will cast my vote there, because it makes more RP sense to me that an item that ways 1/2 a pound is worth 1/2 a pound of mithral+the price of the item. Now, that said, I will say that, as this ruling looks like it can go either way, the 252 ruling is much more powerful than the 502 ruling, so I am fairly certain that the result will be the 502 result.I think it's because the rules don't distinguish between volume and weight. You're using the same amount of metal to make the weapon, it just weighs less. So you're still using "1 lb", as it were, of mithral, it just doesn't actually weigh that much.
Then how much does a 200 lb statue of mithral weigh, and how much does it cost?
If it weighs 200 lbs, it either has to cost 400 * 500 = 200000 gp, or it has to cost 200 * 500 = 100000 gp.
Now, per the table, it says 'weight * 500gp' for 'other items'. So, either you have to multiply all costs by 2 (to get the price of a 200 lb statue made of mithral) or you don't.
Unfortunately, our only example of this is a mithral golem, which says it has 3000 lbs of mithral and other precious metals worth 50,000. This is an insanely low price. If you assume it's the 'original weight' of mithral, the maximum you can put in mithral into it 50 lbs of mithral (50 lbs of mithral counts as 100 lbs, 50,000 / 500 = 100). Which is not a mithral golem really.
Yet again, internal consistency goes out the window.
If you melted down the statue and made it into a cube, it'd take up a certain volume. A mithral statue uses the same volume, so you're buying just as much metal. It just weighs less.
I wouldn't know what to tell you about the golem, but it's not the only place mithral is a bargain; mithral half-plate costs 9000 gold (=18lbs), far less than the 50 base lbs it weighs, or even the 25 it ends up weighing if it works that way.
And that volume would have a certain weight. And every time I go buy something in the store sold by weight, it's the weight that comes up on the scale, not twice that.
Every other material in the game has a listed price per pound, and that price is how much you pay for a one pound ingot of the metal. Not how much you pay for the one pound ingot plus the imaginary one pound ingot next to it.
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Edit: On further thought, I think I like the x20 idea for MW weapons. However, it should be noted that this price is just for the masterwork classification. You still have to pay the price of the weapon too; so really it is x21.
As for the mithril issue, price it by actual weight since you are not using any more mithril than that. I vote the 252 price.
My vote is 502 for a mithril dagger.
32 FAQ hits so far! Here's the beginning tally:
People that believe the price of a Mithral dagger is 252gp: 1
People that believe the price of a Mithral dagger is 502gp: 1Couldn't quite tell what mdt's vote was...
Where does everyone else stand?
My personal feeling is that this is how it should work...
The price of an item is the cheapest price that covers both the material and masterwork price.
So, my personal belief is that a Mithral Dagger should cost 302 (the same as a MW dagger).
If this were the case then why would NON-mithral daggers exist?
I think it should be the mithral price of the new weight + master work cost. So a dagger would be 552gp. Now, there is no rules to support this reading (indeed, they directly contradict this) so I would be happier about the 502gp price.
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How plentiful is mithral in Golarian? Is it common enough where if it were cheaper, everyone with a masterwork dagger is an idiot who should have gone with mithral?
Consider that if a mithral dagger is priced after the weight reduction, any settlement of 21 or more people has a 75% of having a small-sized mithral dagger lying around. Any settlement of 61 or more people has a 75% chance of having a medium-sized mithral dagger.
If mithral is common enough that I can walk into a hamlet and come out of it with a small-sized mithral dagger, and cheaper in price than the steel alternative, why does anyone use a masterwork dagger in any NPC stat block?
Thus my 'other' statement.
Cost = Maximum of Masterwork + Weapon or Mithral + weapon.
The problem with it being the original weight is, da dum, you still have the same issue for small weapons.
That is, if you use the original weight, a small mithral dagger is still 'cheaper' than a MW steel one.
The only way to handle this is that the 'minimum' cost is based off the most expensive component (Masterwork or Mithral depending on weight).
Thus my 'other' statement.
Cost = Maximum of Masterwork + Weapon or Mithral + weapon.
The problem with it being the original weight is, da dum, you still have the same issue for small weapons.
That is, if you use the original weight, a small mithral dagger is still 'cheaper' than a MW steel one.
The only way to handle this is that the 'minimum' cost is based off the most expensive component (Masterwork or Mithral depending on weight).
I still feel if we are looking at errata to fix the issue that it should be (reduced weight mithril value)+(300 for masterwork)+(base price) so a small mithril dagger would be 427gp.
Loving the discussion. As for the tally, looks like we're at:
252gp: 4
502gp: 9
Other: 1 (or is it 2?)
And 68 FAQ hits! Keep 'em coming!
Don't know where you counted me, but without errata, I think 502gp.
252
The problem that reveals is the absurdly expensive blanket cost of the masterwork descriptor.
a flat 300gp fee has always been a really, really bad idea. it totally unbalances the costs for everything. a masterwork knife costs nearly the same as a masterwork ANYTHING, despite them being orders of magnitude easier and faster to bang out.
While I do get your point, I just have to point out that this isn't true in the game, since production time is a linear function of the price.
That said, mechanically the masterwork bonus is the same for any weapon. While we don't see many MW daggers since they are subpar most of the time, any character who is built around using daggers get the same benefit as someone using a MW sword. This makes a flat masterwork cost a working solution, as opposed to having several different categories of prices for the masterwork component of a weapon, that doesn't matter a part from the first levels any way.