Rite Publishing hasn't done a Way of the Ninja supplement, though we plan to - in it we plan to create shinobi as an archetype with versions for monk, ranger, sorcerer, alchemist and several other classes. While we'll certainly create archetypes for ninja, as well. We will do this sometime next year.
Yeah, there's been quite a bit of bastardization of the Japanese language and cultural concepts throughout it's entire D&D/PF history.
Strange, but I feel like banning gunslingers might be a mistake.You realize that he is trying to set something in the Sengoku period, the 15th through the 17th century. You linked him a movie set in the late Edo period, in the 19th century.
That's like linking "Dances With Wolves" to someone asking for references on the French and Indian War.
Woops, you caught me!
I guess I'll just go back to playing in the game's default setting with robots, wizards, printing presses, gunpowder, nazis and western democracy with swords.
The OP is guilty of nothing more than a misleading thread title. His setting is one of his own whims, not based on any period of history (not even the one he mentioned).
Pathfinder doesn't really benefit from this kind of historical hair splitting (although kudos to you for knowing your history). It's a pulpy game with a bunch of superheroes in the craziest genre mashup possible grouped under the idea of "fantasy."
As mentioned above, you can be flexible with the classes, but if your first instinct is to ban a bunch of stuff, you are basically gelding the system you've chosen.
Well the Portuguese showed up in Japan in the 1500's with the arquebus, and that happened to be during the Sengoku Period, so technically speaking, if the OP is basing his setting on the Sengoku Period, then guns should be an available technology.
But the OP did say, that he plans to introduce guns during this period as part of his setting backstory, yet the arrival of guns hasn't happened yet, so to ban gunslinger for the time being seems appropriate.
@Mythic Evil Lincoln - while the default game has no internal genre consistency, that doesn't mean every home-brew setting falls into default mode. My Kaidan setting while completely fictional is actually closely linked to feudal Japan culturally and to their folklore. There are not otherwise anachronistic aspects Kaidan - no robots, only wood-block print printing, no Nazis. Though the metsuki which were a kind of shogunate secret police of historic Japan is present in Kaidan, so maybe nazi-like. Japan was a police state for most of it's history.
Well, guns were present towards the end of the Sengoku period, but you don't have to have them to base a game on it. Country divided, different warlords fighting one another, alliances rising and falling, chaos and opportunity... I think this is the defining aspect of the period, none of that needs gunpowder. By the same measure, it certainly can have them.
I'd say most classes are broad enough to work for nearly any fantasy setting, at most with cosmetic differences. I'd probably remove paladins and magi, and trust monk, inquisitor or bard archetypes to take over their roles. I may be a bit biased against the magus class, though - to me, it was a PrC or a multiclass extended in 20 class levels.
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Haven't released it yet, as I have to finish, but Rite Publishing will be releasing #30 Ancestral Relics for Kaidan, which includes weapons and all sorts of items that work like Legacy weapons, with 10 levels of powers progression, however require an event trigger and maintaining an equivalent level of honor to the powered levels of the items. Should be released in the next month or two.
I'd be a bit hesitant to get rid of looting by replacing it with ancestral weapons. While it's a nice idea, it removes a lot of the players choice and essentially 50% of the rewards in PF (or something like 25% if you do the 'thumbprint' idea).
Eventually you'd kinda need an ancestral weapon, an ancestral shield, an ancestral helm, an ancestral amulet, ancestral rings etc....
Hmm.. you could however give out a separate kind of reward. Something like 'honor points', which they won't receive if they loot. They can then spend honor points to 'enchant' their items, whether ancestral weapons or bracers or boots etc...
Another alternative would be that a lot of the loot is gained through duels, in which both parties agree to put their money and non-combat valuables in a pouch on the ground. The winner/survivor takes all.
What I do like about getting rid of looting is that 'kill things and take their stuff' is not a viable career on its own anymore. You have to get a job on the side, such as being in lord's service, bounty hunting or even a profession.
Don't call it honor points then, call it 'Purity' or something. Looting is not just dishonorable, it's also 'dirty' or 'impure'.
Eh, evolving relics can make a fair amount of sense. A youth is bestowed with a valuable ring or amulet during his or her initiation as a full-fledged member of the clan. The jewel is also a symbol of membership and respect, and blessed by the spirits of the ancestors with protective magic. The more he proves his mettle and value to the clan, the more the spirits take notice and the more they protect the young scion.
It works particularly well with an honor system. To paraphrase the Ninja Burger quote - first you honor your ancestors, and eventually your ancestors honor you ;) .
Dot for later perusal.
Last time I did the setting each player got an item that became sentient due to being very old. For things that they defeated the 100 year old items would locate equipment that wanted to come with them. I also went with more rewards and less loot.
I don't think I'd remove Paladin because it does seem to be a romanticized Samurai with super powers.
In this setting if you don't honor your ancestors they may literally come after you so honor may be a good thing to add, or I could just use the hero point system granting hero points based on honor.
To explain myself a bit;
I am looking at the Sengoku Period for the backdrop and how the NPCs interact and how the story progresses and the status quo, but to some extent I have to get into high fantasy. I also have to contend with the fact that it is part of a larger setting with a set planar cosmetology and facts that will eventually interact with the magic of this continent. I also wanted to make it interesting which led me to make the setting lack humans and gave an explanation for it.
As I said Magic the Gathering's Kamigawa is a large influence, and this is mostly because it didn't stop being high fantasy but had fantastic flavor, so I made that my goal.
So far I've GMed two settings before this, this setting (called it Choujuushima) and a somewhat horror based one, between them I've done three campaigns and I wanted them to interact, I thought the Sengoku Period would be a good influence because it seemed the best time to introduce foreigners to a situation. Also while the Choujuushima environment has leaned towards trusting spirits and divine virtue the horror continent (in the current campaign) has leaned towards artifice due to their gods dying. one reason why I wanted guns to have an 'introduction'.
And here I was going to say 'for the feel of the period done not-super-seriously, check out Sengoku Basara or Samurai Warriors series'.
But Sengoku Basara has not only Gunslingers and Alchemists, but caveliers, barbarians, druids, rangers, ball'n'chain fu, mecha-horses with chromed exhaust pipes, and the freaking Mobile Suit: HONDAM, who at this point may well be Ieyasu Tokugawa's Eidolon.
I think I had a point, but I misplaced it.
The awesomest thing I've heard in ages
I have to play this.
@Malwing - I can't believe I didn't mention it, but since you'll be getting (or have already gotten) Way of the Samurai. In it there's also a paladin build called the Yamabushi (I know Paizo has some faction for tengu called yamabushi, but that's a cultural error, IMO). Yamabushi (and Shugendo, the faith of Yamabushi) was actually an illegal practice in feudal Japan with it's founder exiled to a volatile volcanic island. Since Kaidan's ruling class are actually undead (part of the curse that founded the empire), and the yamabushi oppose the empire, making them paladins to figure prominently for yamabushi makes sense. The yamabushi paladin has some druid/ranger influence being a 'priest' among nature kami, and/or Yomi, the land of the dead - a connection to ancestral spirits; so a little different from typical paladins.
Also, completely optional, but Kaidan has it's own Honor system, basically a 0 to 10 Honor point scale, a given samurai or other honor-based class can generally only possess half the Honor points as their level. All the archetypes have one class feature based off this honor system - granting specific bonuses unique to the class based on their honor score. There are several specific ways to gain and lose honor built into the mechanic. In the 11 page fluff chapter of the supplement (the first 11 pages) details on Bushido, Honor, Seppuku, Ronin-status and more are given, as well as samurai origins. Robbing corpses has no influence in gaining nor losing honor in our system.
In the end Kaidan is only mentioned cursorily, as the material in the guide is for oriental setting play, low or high fantasy, not just Kaidan, but for my setting it's an intrinsically important part.
Since you mention sailing to your nearby Japanese-ish land, I thought I'd point out the maps to Kaidan. The first link is to Yonshu, one of the three main islands of the Kaidan archipelago (I deliberatly made Kaidan more like Japan, as an island nation, then either Rokugan or Minkai as continent-bound Japan-lands). The second map is of the entire archipelago and will be featured in the upcoming GM's Guide to Kaidan.
Island of Yonshu (where the entire Curse of the Golden Spear trilogy occurs)
Incidentally, I also designed the original hand-drawn map of the City of Kasai for the Jade Regent AP, and am credited as a contributing author to The Empty Throne module.
This is still Pathfinder, so it would go more like this... http://youtu.be/Z4A95kVPwP8?t=1h56m18s
Or I just love these kind of fights more. Its what happened last time I ran this setting.
RAN is an awesome movie, and appropriately named as "ran" means a family feud or clan civil war - it happened often in feudal Japan.
I hadn't seen Yojimbo so I'm currently in the middle of it. (Hulu+) I did not realize it was a comedy...
After this is Seven Samurai, which I've seen but don't remember, any recommendations for supernatural/fantasy Japanese period films? I feel like most of my exposure in that regard is anime and wuxia.
You can't really go past Hidden Fortress, a Kurosawa iconic film looted fully and openly by Lucas for Star Wars. Not fantasy or supernatural, but fantastic mood and feeling nevertheless...
The beginning scenes alone are worth visiting the movie for...
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Guntank Gunslinger gives you the chance to play a really interesting slant on the samurai with a musket.
Also alchemists can be odd hermits and medicine men, selling their snake oils and remedies to those with the money to pay
Now I will say I can see you cutting the druid from the options considering how they don't really fit into the Japanese astetic as much.
The Japanese are animist nature worshipers... Pokemon are based on Japanese nature spirits. If you reflavor the Druid it would fit in very well as the back to nature mystic.
It all depends on how much realism you want. Japanese history exists in many forms, all or at least most of them with political goals, just like every other country on Earth. Then again, myth is a pretty big part of why we play this game, so the more slanted history is probably the best option.
First off, make sure people have a basic understanding of life in your setting. Focus slightly on the things they do not expect to teach them this. Language is a barrier. However, Japanese names (again, like most other cultures' names) translate directly into concepts, so perhaps you should do this translation for them? It may not be as much work as you think, and could help them remember the names? So, for example, Lord Morikawa could be Lord Riverwood instead?
Second, Japanese culture is not traditional fantasy culture. Many of the things we have in our myths are not part of Japanese myth. I would reskin the druid and ban the paladin, implement the five elements for wizards, and remove much of metal armour. Think long and hard about alignment. It may be best to scrap it.
the paladin, could be reskinned as a mystical samurai with magical bushido powers fairly easily.
but whatever you do
do not include the complete warrior samurai, that class was so stereotypically profiling on such a badly high level, a lot of people are surprised it didn't give extra experience points for committing suicide
That would be AWESOME...
It all depends on how much realism you want. Japanese history exists in many forms, all or at least most of them with political goals, just like every other country on Earth. Then again, myth is a pretty big part of why we play this game, so the more slanted history is probably the best option.
Very good point. The thing is, this is a game. I'd seriously get rid of the Japanese aversion to looting, as implementing it would do more harm to your game than good. Historical accuracy has never been a priority in RPGs and shouldn't be. There is a role for it and it can be really interesting but having fun in your game comes first.
Don't get rid of looting.DO get rid of alignment. If I have learned anything about (prewar) Japan, it is that they have/had a radically different value system than Western Europe. A good example is the way POWs were treated in WW2: to the Americans, it was no dishonor to surrender after a battle and it was dishonorable to treat your POWs badly. The Japanese believed exactly the opposite: there was nothing more dishonorable than surrendering and those who surrendered pretty much lost all value as a human being, which explained the atrocities/war crimes they committed on POWs.
(please don't expand on this, don't wanna start a flame war or something, just making a point that their value system is/was different)
You could replace the good-evil axis with an honorable-dishonorable axis and use it alongside D20 Modern's Allegiances system
How is druid not the perfect class for a Shinto priest? Just wondering.
Speaking of Seven Samurai, one of the characters is a greatsword-wielding wildman, probably a bastard son, who looks like a Barbarian to me.
A bard who takes one of the options for affecting undead could be a traditional exorcist.
By the Sengoku period, the Japanese were quite familiar with Taoist alchemy, which can serve as the basis for both the alchemist and sorcerer class.
For a paladin, just as Galahad is a fusion of the Christian saint and the pagan hero, why not a Confucian-inspired samurai with syncretic Buddhist and Shinto elements?
The only problem with the gunslinger is that the guns of the period were arquebus type weapons. A cavalier with a gunslinging archetype is probably a better fit.
Indeed. As we Westerners tend to see Asian world views, there are more concerns with balance, proper functioning of advanced administrative structures, respect for nature, and so on. In truth, this varied wildly, and the baseline wasn't too far from our own, but why worry about that? Unless you have a scholar of the subject as a player, it's not going to be a problem for you.
Rokugan d20 kept alignments IIRC, adding in the concept of taint, which was a physical representation of evil, spread primarily by being in bad places and by demons. Honourable-dishonourable sounds like a good version.
Wouldn't honorable/dishonorable work better as a replacement for the lawful-chaotic axis? I can see interesting interactions between good (through a buddhist or taoist perspective, perhaps) and honor.
Also, a druid may work a bit better as a hermit (considering the focus on animal companions, shapeshifting etc), wouldn't traditional shinto priests work better as oracles or clerics?
Yes. It would fit far better there than as good-evil.
True, I mostly envisioned getting rid of both and replacing them with an honor-dishonor axis and some sort of allegiances 'axis'. I mentioned good-evil for no particular reason except that it was the first to come to mind. I probably shouldn't have.
If you wanna use honor-dishonor, replace law-chaos with it and combine it with good-evil (if you wanna keep that).
Nevertheless, it'd be interesting to also make room for characters who use dishonorable means out of loyalty to a faction/lord/whatever (for example, a ninja in servitude to a daimyo or out of loyalty to their clan). They'd be dishonorable and honorable at the same time in different ways. This is why I suggested incorporating allegiances as a part of morality/ethics.
PS. there are exceptions of course, if you for example would want to incorporate a balance-disbalance axis (which would fit in with Japanese mythology as well), that'd be a better replacement for law-chaos. But that might be getting a bit semantic.
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The awesomest thing I've heard in agesI have to play this.
If you want to play the vidgames, you'll need to import Sengoku Basaras 1&2, unless you get the HD remake collection on PS3, which is still an import but less region-lock issues naturally.
As far as 2 goes, Nobunaga Oda and Toyatomi Hideyoshi are firing lasers from their eyes so all arguments are invalid.
Sengoku Basara 3 was released for PS3, XBox, and Wii as Sengoku Basara: Samurai Heroes. The intro alone fills me with glee, especially as the group who did it, T.M. Revolution, does the theme in the series in Japan as well, so that they redid the song for English is a nice touch. 3 also marks the kid with the Hondam/Eidolon now as one of the central protagonists, all grown up and fighting with Gentlemanly Fisticuffs. And the most emo rival in the world, but that can be looked up for greater explanation.
A fourth game is coming. I want it NOW.
Make sure you use bards as artists that perform for a living. Like a singer/instrument player/Bunraku performer (puppet theater)
Most regular theaters were banned because they might be critics against a ruler. Strangely Bunraku was often overlooked. Bunraku theater was performed by 1 meter puppets that were controlled by up to 3 players.
Head and right-arm players, left-hand players and feet players (even though female puppets had no actual feet the player had to shape their hands for the illusion in the dress). One-player puppet or even one-player crowds existed as well for background purposes. The puppets would even have scaled down instruments, furniture, weapons and armor.
Entering a Bunraku theater meant you had to crawl through a door not higher the 2 feet, in order to make sure only paying customers would enter.
And most importantly: make sure everybody adresses each other by their surname and add their name only if their father/mother is present. The Japanese also live(d) by a strict hierarchy.
The awesomest thing I've heard in agesI have to play this.If you want to play the vidgames, you'll need to import Sengoku Basaras 1&2, unless you get the HD remake collection on PS3, which is still an import but less region-lock issues naturally.
As far as 2 goes, Nobunaga Oda and Toyatomi Hideyoshi are firing lasers from their eyes so all arguments are invalid.
Sengoku Basara 3 was released for PS3, XBox, and Wii as Sengoku Basara: Samurai Heroes. The intro alone fills me with glee, especially as the group who did it, T.M. Revolution, does the theme in the series in Japan as well, so that they redid the song for English is a nice touch. 3 also marks the kid with the Hondam/Eidolon now as one of the central protagonists, all grown up and fighting with Gentlemanly Fisticuffs. And the most emo rival in the world, but that can be looked up for greater explanation.
A fourth game is coming. I want it NOW.
This is the most glorious thing I have ever seen.
Also the guy with the red coat and headband looks familiar. Who is he?
Yukimura Sanada (or Sanada Nobushige if you go by his actual name and according to the Japanese name order), he tends to usually make it in those games/shows.
You're really not much the authority on Japanese culture as it's developed through history, you claim to be if you dismiss the influence of Nature belief right off the bat with your feeble excuse for banning Druids. (what I would have done is come up with a more oriental flavored archetype, or possibly a different oracle mystery) The major problem with your presentation is that you've been talking about nothing but mechanics. Mechanics is just the whitebread of a sandwich that is the campaign.. it's the setting and the story that's the meat of it.
Although I certainly haven't only been talking about mechanics, (I have been mostly making posts comparing other poster's mistaken issues compared to realworld historic Japan - which is all fluff, I haven't been talking about mechanics much at all) I have at no time suggested banning druids anywhere in this or similar threads. I have in fact mentioned the existence of druids in Kaidan called Henge-Kannushi (a specific archetype) from our In the Company of Henge product (why would I ban them, if I've published their existence in my Japan based setting?). Kannushi being Shinto priests. While the human version is more oracle than druid. The primary oracles of Kaidan are mikko (shrine maidens). Nature worship and references to Shinto nature spirits/kami, one of the two major religions of Kaidan, are very prevalent. It's called "Yokinto" in Kaidan, as the yokai are the founders of our version of Shinto. The yokai preceded humans as the first sentient inhabitants of Kaidan.
In fact no class is banned in Kaidan, though summoner is somewhat hampered by the "planar blocking" nature of the setting, Kaidan has published versions of almost every class - and the ones we've missed will be published at some time in the future. Kaidan has it's own and multiple versions of druid, ranger, barbarian, alchemist, paladin - all classes discussed as possible ban material in this thread, in addition to all the other class versions we've published so far.
You must be confusing me with the OP or someone else in this thread.
I would allow druids, but I might require a choice of archetype, and have them either be priests of a certain kind of nature-related kami (aquatic, storm, etc.), or in fact have them BE kami who have entered humanoid form to interact with the mortal world for some esoteric reason. That might stretch a few things in terms of authenticity but I don't think it would be out of place.
If you want to ban a class just because you don't like it, then say so, but you either need a solid setting reason or just be clear that you just don't want to have to deal with them because.
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Authenticity? Rokugan IS not, Was Not, Never will be Japan. It's not set on Earth, it's not located anywhere near China or the Phillipines. So the authenticity argument goes over the rail right there. You're really not much the authority on Japanese culture as it's developed through history, you claim to be if you dismiss the influence of Nature belief right off the bat with your feeble excuse for banning Druids. (what I would have done is come up with a more oriental flavored archetype, or possibly a different oracle mystery) The major problem with your presentation is that you've been talking about nothing but mechanics. Mechanics is just the whitebread of a sandwich that is the campaign.. it's the setting and the story that's the meat of it.
...Yeah, I think you have him confused with someone else since he never said most of that in this thread. Nor do I get the feeling you've actually read any of the Kaidan material. It's not just mechanics and overall is extremely well handled. The mechanics are pretty awesome with that said, but they are supported with a good amount of adventure path/modules that actually do focus heavily on story and fluff that supports it. Half the fun of a good Kaidan campaign is evoking a sense of dread.
@LaserX - Also at no point did I suggest any D&D/PF oriental setting was actual Japan (not even Kaidan), when I state that Rokugan is not authentic (aside from many small cultural details) Rokugan, the geography, is more like China - a continent bound extensive region. I believe many of those aspects that are unique to Japan, are unique because it's an island nation. Even Minkai is more like Korea as a peninsula - as a cartographer, geography is a major part of setting immersion for me. Kaidan is an archipelago of hundreds of islands, but as a plug-in-play regional setting, it's designed to be placed in any ocean of any existing setting - Kaidan doesn't belong to any specific world setting, nor was it ever intended to be.
Here's a link to my Kaidan G+ community with links to all published material, discussion, maps, reviews, resource material and art of the setting, to give you a better idea of what is Kaidan without having to purchase anything.
And I'm speaking of authenticity of that which is Japanese, not "Japan" per se, rather it's culture, folklore, tradtion, social structure, mores, religion (to some degree), practices and economics - not in the empirical "Japan" as an earth nation, itself.
Note, I'm half Japanese and have spent a lifetime researching my heritage as an amateur historian and folklorist - I have even studied in Japan, so I have some expertise on the subject. Paizo even commissioned me as a contributing author and cartographer for the Jade Regent AP, as they recognize my expertise. So your statement of me not much the authority on Japanese culture as it applied to history - is incorrect.
I would allow druids, but I might require a choice of archetype, and have them either be priests of a certain kind of nature-related kami (aquatic, storm, etc.), or in fact have them BE kami who have entered humanoid form to interact with the mortal world for some esoteric reason. That might stretch a few things in terms of authenticity but I don't think it would be out of place.
If you want to ban a class just because you don't like it, then say so, but you either need a solid setting reason or just be clear that you just don't want to have to deal with them because.
Well, technically I was just thinking of banning it and putting it up there as a possible ban. Later I posted that I listened to the arguments against the ban and said that its probably just because I didn't like the class so decided not to ban it. Wildshape puts me off because the entire population of the setting are all animal-morphs of some sort I don't think that matters as much as I thought it mattered earlier in the week.
Well, technically I was just thinking of banning it and putting it up there as a possible ban. Later I posted that I listened to the arguments against the ban and said that its probably just because I didn't like the class so decided not to ban it. Wildshape puts me off because the entire population of the setting are all animal-morphs of some sort I don't think that matters as much as I thought it mattered earlier in the week.I would allow druids, but I might require a choice of archetype, and have them either be priests of a certain kind of nature-related kami (aquatic, storm, etc.), or in fact have them BE kami who have entered humanoid form to interact with the mortal world for some esoteric reason. That might stretch a few things in terms of authenticity but I don't think it would be out of place.
If you want to ban a class just because you don't like it, then say so, but you either need a solid setting reason or just be clear that you just don't want to have to deal with them because.
Well, that's where archetypes come in. Many of them either limit the shapes taken or push the shapeshifting later into the class advancement.
Well, that's where archetypes come in. Many of them either limit the shapes taken or push the shapeshifting later into the class advancement.Well, technically I was just thinking of banning it and putting it up there as a possible ban. Later I posted that I listened to the arguments against the ban and said that its probably just because I didn't like the class so decided not to ban it. Wildshape puts me off because the entire population of the setting are all animal-morphs of some sort I don't think that matters as much as I thought it mattered earlier in the week.I would allow druids, but I might require a choice of archetype, and have them either be priests of a certain kind of nature-related kami (aquatic, storm, etc.), or in fact have them BE kami who have entered humanoid form to interact with the mortal world for some esoteric reason. That might stretch a few things in terms of authenticity but I don't think it would be out of place.
If you want to ban a class just because you don't like it, then say so, but you either need a solid setting reason or just be clear that you just don't want to have to deal with them because.
I think the bigger question that I probably should have posted is "Should I enforce class options that help reinforce the setting's themes or trust that the PCs will do this on their own."
I've used Cavalier to make a spaghetti western outlaw, used Magus to make a blaxploitation hero, and Alchemist to make Soundwave from Transformers, but whenever, as a DM, I present a theme the PCs never really resemble anything beyond a party of the same D&D characters you'd expect aside from name choice, so mentally I'd answer 'maybe' at the most.