For the second time I'm GMing a "Japanese" campaign and from the first one I found a lot of things that need to be done to make it feel less like a typical day of D&D.
1) I've already banned Gunslingers and Alchemists for technological incompatibility. What other classes should go on the chopping block for a Sengoku Period inspired Japanese campaign?
Basically Oracle or Summoners fit into the Druid's shoes in terms of what it's cultural role is and Ranger feels slightly overshadowed by a nature domained Inquisitor if a ranger is defined by his role in the whole nature theme.
Other than that the differing roles are as follows:
Barbarian: I'm not sure how he fits so I think I'm retooling it into the 'style' theme.
Okay so I defined in this setting that might comes from techniques. Techniques come in Taijutsu, Tenshijutsu and Mahojutsu: Martial, Divine and Arcane power respectively. With Monk being within the realm of Taijutsu a Barbarian rage falls into a similar realm. This is big because conflicts between technique styles happen all the time and it gets weird to the point where Magi NPCs resemble monks more than wizards.
Bard: Doesn't need a change just clarifying that he is in fact using mahojutsu and the source is his force of will
Witch: Witches would simply be someone taught Mahojutsu by some Yokai(miscellaneous monster-spirit) and be granted the option of communing with it with familiar as normal or Bonded object per the Wizard ability only that it stores spells known and has a blackblade's ego progression. Witch doesn't have much 'asian support' like Bard, Magus, and Cavalier do.
Wizard: I'm not sure what to do here. Last time I limited Wizards to elemental schools because elements was a big thing but overall I just don't know if there's a real place for wizard.
2) Is there any good guide out there where I can quickly and easily list what kind of items PCs would actually encounter in a world like this? Guns and crossbows are a given but what about armor and it's varying types? Are things like mythril appropriate for a Japanese setting?
3) Last time I named NPCs, gave them backstories and set the plot according to old Japanese myths folk tales and plays. Nobody could remember anyone's name nor understand why anyone did anything when having you testicles stolen is reasonable concern. Any good guidelines on keeping the setting Japanese-y while keeping it familiar to players?
4) I never got to this because Bestiary 3 did not have kaiju, but how do you reasonably fight kaiju? How do you reasonably stat out kaiju? Do I just give Tarrasque a ray breath weapon and call it a kaiju?
5)any third party/already written house rules that sort out some of the above issues?
6) Should I change some proficiencies?
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Next month, Bestiary 4 will have kaiju in it.
Surprised to see the ban on firearms. The arrival of black powder weapons in Japan is a popular trope in Japanese fiction about the Sengoku period, with the juxtaposition of the traditional ways vs. the march of technology. Remember, Oda Nobunaga made good use of firearms in several of his battles.
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1) I've already banned Gunslingers and Alchemists for technological incompatibility. What other classes should go on the chopping block for a Sengoku Period inspired Japanese campaign?
None? Why are alchemist incompatable with a civilization that made explosives and used chemistry, especially if most of the alchemist list is just a wiz/sorc spell in bottled form. Druids being redundant makes them more viable, you can still use the characters mechanics and have them be closer to nature than ever with Kami being a manifestation of it.
Your too obsessed with giving the classes a role in the world I think. Just reflavor them if you really have to, but to be honest you don't have to ban any. You don't need 'Asian support' and to only use Asian named and themed classes. To be honest its fine to say 'I'm a geisha!' with a nilla' bard or the like.
Next month, Bestiary 4 will have kaiju in it.
Surprised to see the ban on firearms. The arrival of black powder weapons in Japan is a popular trope in Japanese fiction about the Sengoku period, with the juxtaposition of the traditional ways vs. the march of technology. Remember, Oda Nobunaga made good use of firearms in several of his battles.
Firearms won't be known to the PCs until the middle of the campaign. Long story short I'm banning firearms partially because I want them to be a huge thing that changes things in the campaign.
Basically the game I'm currently GMing is near but not aware of the Japanese-ish setting. By the end of the current campaign I expect the current setting's nation to become an empire and sail off to different places while having a 'find new lands/good/people to trade with war with an neighboring empire.
I don't think you should ban those two classes at all! Granted the time periods would be somewhat hand-waived just as they are in Golarion, but for an asian setting, the inclusion of alchemy and gunpowder seems very appropriate. That being said, a bit of reflavoring would be appropriate. The gunslinger as-is could be a bit too spaghetti western.
Alchemy was actually practiced in China at least, or at least stuff similar to alchemy.
Off the top of my head, Druid and Paladin probably don't fit. And I would enforce Samurai as the only cavalier option.
Gunslinger as a ban sounds fine to me if the introduction of gunpowder will by important to your campaign, but I would allow players to pick that class after the introduction
Off the top of my head, Druid and Paladin probably don't fit. And I would enforce Samurai as the only cavalier option.
How don't druids or paladins fit? Do people think japan never revered nature or something? Or that they're incapable of being good aligned leaders? I mean, I don't know much about history, but did they also not having people on horseback who could charge?
Banned alchemy? While not a Japanese trope per se, alchemy is definitely as much an asian (specifically China) trope as it is a western one (chinese alchemists were after immortality rather than turning base metals to gold like european ones). Anyway, the Japanese imported a lot of Chinese knowledge.
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Druids were historically celtic, and paladins christian.Off the top of my head, Druid and Paladin probably don't fit. And I would enforce Samurai as the only cavalier option.How don't druids or paladins fit?
And... What's your point? That that's their only use? Man, Golarion needs to be told they're doing it wrong since they don't have Christian or Celtic religions. Also that the LG god of paladins and honor in Tian is doing it wrong.
Plenty of ways to spin the same class with the same mechanics. Just because it has a name with a history doesn't mean that its the only way of doing it. You could play druids without a problem I'd think, as could you paladins.
, but did they also not having people on horseback who could charge?Of course they did. They were called Samurai. . .
Then cavalier are just fine!
Maybe introduce the gunslinger as a villain, mid-campaign, before opening up the class to the PCs?
One of the major points is that gunslingers are introduced as villains. The overarching villain established trade with a nation of imperialistic werewolves who told them that it would be a good idea if they took over the rest of their nation so that they would have more stuff to trade.
I wound up banning Alchemist because most I've seen/played stray far from the Gatorade Wizard concept and go straight into science fiction so in certain homebrew games it gets a ban.
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Druids were historically celtic, and paladins christian.Off the top of my head, Druid and Paladin probably don't fit. And I would enforce Samurai as the only cavalier option.How don't druids or paladins fit?
All of that is meaningless in the fantasy setting, and only dubiously meaningful in the real world anyway.
The druid of Pathfinder is a powerful nature magician. A geomancer, who fits absolutely in an asian-inspired fantasy world. Like crazy hermit taoist mystics.
The druid of real world is something we know virtually nothing about except through some highly biased early roman writings.
The paladin is a mystic warrior who must balance his zeal and honor. Jeez, there's nobody like that in japanese mythology. :)
The paladins of the real world were a bunch of war heroes under Charlemagne. The actual dudes were probably not especially honorable.
Look, friends. Classes are extremely flexible. It is always preferable to leave the option in and charge the player with the task of "reskinning" it to serve the theme of the campaign. Any energy directed toward banning things to make it "fit" would be better spent on making the banned thing fit!
Druids were historically celtic, and paladins christian.Off the top of my head, Druid and Paladin probably don't fit. And I would enforce Samurai as the only cavalier option.How don't druids or paladins fit?And... What's your point? That that's their only use? Man, Golarion needs to be told they're doing it wrong since they don't have Christian or Celtic religions. Also that the LG god of paladins and honor in Tian is doing it wrong.
Plenty of ways to spin the same class with the same mechanics. Just because it has a name with a history doesn't mean that its the only way of doing it. You could play druids without a problem I'd think, as could you paladins.
Then cavalier are just fine!, but did they also not having people on horseback who could charge?Of course they did. They were called Samurai. . .
Honestly the last time I did the setting Cavaliers and Paladins just became reskinned into Samurai with Paladins leaning towards the divinity inspired super romanticized samurai.
Druids and Rangers I'm probably biased against because I was never sold on 'Nature' as a source of divine power, but I do feel like the concept of nature theme casters isn't compatible with this specific setting simply because of how the land works.
Although to be fair I have made houserule bans before for no other reason than to differentiate one country's magical culture from another.
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Druids and Rangers I'm probably biased against because I was never sold on 'Nature' as a source of divine power...
Um. You did say Japan, right?
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The sound you hear is thousands of Shinto priests spinning in their graves, with all the unwanted Kami weeping quietly at their nature shrines.
Druids and Rangers I'm probably biased against because I was never sold on 'Nature' as a source of divine power...Um. You did say Japan, right?
Yes.
I'm not exactly saying that druids are invalidated.
The two points I was making with that sentence was 1) I have a bias against Druids and Rangers. Its a long story and a lot of typing so I try to leave it short. 2) I feel like Oracle class features fit the setting's animism moreso than a Druid's and that many of the Druid's class features feel off the mark to me.
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The druid of real world is something we know virtually nothing about except through some highly biased early roman writings.
Or equally biased French writing...
The two points I was making with that sentence was 1) I have a bias against Druids and Rangers. Its a long story and a lot of typing so I try to leave it short.
So is it something personal?
@Malwing - I've already pointed you to Kaidan material on the other thread of yours. Kaidan's Way of the Samurai includes a Teppou Bushi - a gunslinger-arquebusor straight out of Nobunaga and the Sengoku Period. As mentioned previously Yojimbo is a very cool ranger archetype for Kaidan.
In the Company of Tengu includes a matagi ranger, a very Japanese ranger. Druids have a place in Kaidan, though they are not very prominent, except among hengeyokai populations, called henge kannushi. Kaidan's oracle is the mikko (shrine maiden).
The two points I was making with that sentence was 1) I have a bias against Druids and Rangers. Its a long story and a lot of typing so I try to leave it short.So is it something personal?
Pretty much.
While traveling home I thought about it and concluded that reskinned Druid totally fits, I just have something against how most people I play with play Druids.
@gamer-printer; Yeah I'm definitely getting some of those products, they seem way more helpful than 3.5's Oriental Adventures for a Japanese Focus. Especially Way of the Samurai for more Ranger flavor.
So now I'm just down to guns and alchemist. Guns because their introduction and mass production is supposed to be a large mid campaign event and Alchemist because I did it last time and it didn't feel right.
What about the other concerns?
What about the other concerns?
You might want to talk to your players about any concerns you have before entering. I've always found that can nip some problems in the bud(like Sci-Fi alchemist for instance). Session 0 can be your most important one dontcha' know.
Oracles even come in Metal, Wood, and Void flavors, along with the classical four elements, for whichever version of the elemental wheel you want -- Western, Chinese, or Japanese.
Okay...let me rephrase...You would need to reflavor/rename Druid and Paladin. I could actually see some sort of druid role if there is an expy for the Ainu for instance. I have no clue how to reflavor/rename a paladin.
I would say Inquistor would work...have them be enforcers for the Emperor for instance (I have seen similar tropes in Chinese period martial arts movies)
I'd actually ban Samurai for such a campaign, and remind everyone that it's a title someone any class can have (just as being knighted has no relation to any "knight" class) and that most historical Samurai would be Aristocrats (the NPC class) at best, especially in the Edo period.
Flavorwise, Arcane Mark should be much more prominent, because you can easily fit your ENTIRE name in 6 characters with Kanji.
Druid [...] probably don't fit.What?
For a Japanese setting (where the dominant regions either lacked gods, or had LOTS of gods, with people not devoting to a single one), banning Cleric (and inquisitor) makes FAR more sense. Oracles (ESPECIALLY possessed oracles, though not necessarily the archetype) and Druids fit far better for divine classes.
In Way of the Samurai by Rite Publishing, samurai has 2 definitions, 1 the PF martial class, and the other as an entire social caste - consisting of poets, tax collectors, city guard, regional governors, personal retainers, body guards, not just a "samurai" player class. In fact this book includes archetypes for ranger, wizard, gunslinger, and 4 different samurai class archetypes. Kuge is a scholarly noble of higher status than typical samurai. Nitojutsu Sensei loses his Order, and becomes a katana and wakizashi wielding 2 weapon fighting samurai. Tajiya is kind of a paladin samurai, specializing in fighting oni, yurei ghosts and outsiders. Yabusame is the archer master samurai. All very cool builds. There are also 2 prestige classes.
In Rite's In the Company of Tengu, there's a magus build called Kensei which has some divine spells as part of his spell list, and a mobility build. Note I used the name Kensei, despite the existence of Kensai which is a misspelling (there is no Japanese word kensai), it's supposed by spelled "kensei", and pronounced: ken-say.
A lot of D&D created Japanese mistakes are taken care of in our Kaidan setting.
Always my first priority. The last time I did this setting the players all decided to be 'benders' (water elemental sorcerer, earth mystery oracle, djinni style monk ect) reinforcing an elemental theme throughout the campaign.
OA had the wu jen, but that was just an elemental wizard. Shugenja were technically divine casters in OA, but again they dish out lots of elemental hurt. I don't recall any out and out spellcasters in Japanese mythology, but the game needs them, so I would suggest just using wizards as is. Maybe require players to only take an elemental archetype, but they're still (mechanically) wizards.
The historical imperial government of feudal Japan had an actual ministry of wizards, called the Ministry of Onmyodo with "licensed" wizards called Onmyoji. In Kaidan, the same is true, but Onmyoji is a wizard archetype, who casts spells by using folded paper as primary spell components (origami) that when spells are cast the origami animal figures burst into flames. Onmyoji also have shikigami familiars - a kind of imp-like least oni that have shared powers with their bound onmyoji.
Historical Japan also had "unlicensed" wizards called Jugondo (or jugonji) who are monster slayers, friends with the common folk, though practicing arcane spells illegally. In Kaidan, these are all the sorcerers.
Mahou-tsukai are Kaidan's witches.
So, why Gygax decided to include Wu Jen (Korean styled wild wizards), instead of actual Japanese historical examples of onmyoji and jugonji, I cannot say, but they do exist in Kaidan.
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I wouldn't ban anything, personally, but you can require the players to make sense of their choices if they seem to not fit.
Barbarian: I'm not sure how he fits so I think I'm retooling it into the 'style' theme.I don't think they really fit either. Having said that, one reason Rokugan is such a popular setting is that they found niches for such characters. IIRC crab clan warriors did not fight like "stereotypical" samurai, refusing to use katana and instead using spears and other weapon better suited for fighting heavily-armored demons.
You know, one of the best samurai I've ever had* was actually a barbarian. A ronin who left the noble class and forged his own path in life, seeing the past in the present and body made of scars. Wielded a katana, was highly intelligent over political affairs and diplomacy, and his actual build was pretty kick butt too. I think barbarians fit in very well if you don't think of them as uncivilized babbling foreigners, but as a hardened warrior who has the power to enter a rage or battle focus. If you think of them as incoherent mouth foaming idiots who can't speak common, then yeah, it'll be tough to put them in any game for PCs.
* to be fair, its a very small pool to pull from.
I'd second calls not to ban anything. It merely breeds artificial disparities in tone and concept - if a character chooses a class you are uncomfortable with see if you can integrate their choice into the setting. You may actually find that the player is reaching closer to meshing with the setting through some unorthodox, but personal inspiration. By all means understand I'm not meaning you don't have the final say.
As for naming conventions, strict (or generous) translations into simple idea-words go a long way to integrate "Western" players. Multi-syllabic Japanese names may be difficult, but "Red Lion" or "Thousand Dragon Gate" are easy, evocative and make for fun cinema style attachment. Occasional words like Yojimbo, Samurai, Ronin, Genin/Ninja etc may have more traction, and if you are a student of the genre/period over time you can broaden your, and your players appreciation of the cultural richness of the setting.
As for cultural tropes/stolen testicles I think just explaining the cultural reasoning simply and perhaps analogous (where possible) comparisons to Western/medieval culture might help. Again, it's all about how "fully realised" you want the setting to be, and how immersed or immersive the players want to be/want the setting to be. If it's serious, then play up the moral, ethical, spiritual, class and social/economic dilemmas of the culture. If it's beer and pretzels then Jack the Samurai may have to suffice.
"Red Lion" [...] are easy, evocative and make for fun cinema style attachment.Don't use that one though, Lions never got anywhere NEAR Japan and are pretty weird in a Japanese setting.
"Red Tiger" works a lot better.
Legendary actor Toshiro Mifune and a generation of fans might beg to differ:
[EDIT - it occurs to me akage meaning redhead, that Red Lion is a westernization of the real title. Perhaps a Japanophile can be of service...]
Druids would fit in really well, if only because they could draw power from animal Yokai or could even be part one themselves. There are wayyyy too many Japanese nature-themed supernatual beings that shapeshift between human and animal form (Kitsune, Tanuki, Bakeneko etc...) to ignore the role of druids.
An idea I would love is that druids are Yokai hunters that try to preserve the balance between Yokai and mortals. They could take the form of animals to gather information from other animals, take the form of the Yokai to approach it or take the form of an animal that is appropriate to hunt the animal form of a certain Yokai. To hunt a Kitsune (fox) for a druid could for example take the form of a wolf or hound, while for a Hebi (snake) the druid would become a mongoose or great cat.
Rangers could actually be used as partners/bodyguards for the druids, helping in tracking the Yokai and protecting the mystics from mortal enemies.
How faithful to Japan do you wanna be? If your country is not completely separated from the mainland there could be interaction with the barbarian tribes that dwell there. You could also feature barbarian mountain tribes or seafarers. The latter could even provide some foreshadowing about the gun-using foreigners as the barbarians probably wouldnt be familiar with firearms ("We were warned that our kinsmen saw fire-spitting beastmen on the southern seas").
One thing I would really take into account is that Japan had a very limited supply of metals, which influenced warfare and culture immensely. The only reason katanas and the like were a viable choice was due to the fact that metal was too rare to waste on armor. I'd ban or quadruple the price of all metals, making the price of e.g. metal full-plate armor prohibitive in early levels.
Well one reason I was reluctant on nature themed powers was that All the Player races are animal yokai.
It's not terribly faithful to Japan. The map is a series of islands. The gods are different consisting of the guardian beasts (Suzaku, Seiryu ect)plus an Oni god based on Amatsu-Mikaboshi and a made up god. The place is explained as existing by Izanagi and Izanami's first child who drifted into the cosmos until he tried to destroy himself. His body became the and his spirit became the Ethereal plane making the islands unique in that the Ethereal plane is so close that spirits of nature and ghosts are more visible and influential, but the gods deformities of body lead to the existence of evil and oni so he went down (in the form of a heavily altered version of the Peach boy tale to drive away oni in mortal form. The end result was that humans were now gone so he sought to populate the land with the animals that he met along his journey, so the island is made up of Orochi(Nagaji), Mujina, Kitsune, Tengu, Usagi, Ningyo(merfolk) and Nezumi (Ratfolk).
Most of the influences of how things work came from Usagi Yojimbo, Magic: the Gathering's Kamigawa block, Samurai Sentai Shinkenger, Juken Sentai Gekiranger, Fung Wan (not japanese but...) and random mythology books my fiance has.
Rite Publishing's Kaidan setting has Japanese barbarians, called Emishi with representatives among the hengeyokai and korobokuru. Of course they also have Matagi which are forest terrain only rangers with connections to the kami of the forest, mostly henge as well. As mentioned henge-kannushi are druids. Henge get a 20 level paragon class called Mushakemono, a kind of trickster henge with a cross between extended shape-changing powers, and rogue like tricks. All in our In the Company of Henge supplement.
Here's a description of Korobokuru culture, which is completely based on Ainu culture (and are effectively Emishi, as well), as described by Jonathan McAnulty from one of our Kickstarter updates...
Aside from ningyo, Kaidan has same-bito (shark shapechanger) as well.
Though the lion was never truly witnessed by the Japanese in the feudal period, they were described by Chinese monks visiting Japan, and the Foo Dog is Japan's folklore version of a lion. The same is true of the giraffe, which in Japanese is "Kirin".
Actually that brings up some possibilities storywise.
What I have planned is that the Werewolf descendants are the main rulers of what I'm currently GMing and come in contact with the Henge yokai people of the island being mistaken for new Henge yokai.
If the natives have access to Shapeshifting the Wolf-folk may be interested in them due to their non access to the more powerful abilities of their Lycanthrope ancestors.
I'll have to check out In the company of Henge
I don't think you should ban those two classes at all! Granted the time periods would be somewhat hand-waived just as they are in Golarion, but for an asian setting, the inclusion of alchemy and gunpowder seems very appropriate. That being said, a bit of reflavoring would be appropriate. The gunslinger as-is could be a bit too spaghetti western.
Seven Samurai, one of the pinnacles of Japanese cinema, is just a spaghetti western with samurai instead of cowboys.
And Mythic Evil Lincoln already pointed out Yojimbo.
A while back I played a paladin who was a samurai. I replaced martial weapon profficiency with the asian themed weapons from ultimate combat, and replaced the paladin code with the virtues of bushido. After that the class fit the samurai theme better (in my opinion) then the samurai class.
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A while back I played a paladin who was a samurai. I replaced martial weapon profficiency with the asian themed weapons from ultimate combat, and replaced the paladin code with the virtues of bushido. After that the class fit the samurai theme better (in my opinion) then the samurai class.
The Kaidan supplement Way of the Samurai includes 4 archetypes for samurai based on historical examples and are more true to Japanese samurai than the class by itself. There is a kuge, a noble born samurai, with a slower progression of some samurai abilities, but more knowledge skills, diplomacy and leadership qualities. The nitojutsu sensei is an orderless samurai based on Miyamoto Musashi life as a ronin, 2-weapon fighting samurai. The tajiya is primarily an oni-hunter, a kind of paladin-like samurai though has skills against outsiders and undead as well. Perhaps my favorite, though, is yabusame, the archer master with high damaging shots if done as a single, prepared shot per round - kind of a sniper build.
Mosa is a prestige class for a samurai tank that won't back down for any reason. Another prestige class is for bugyo, an appointed officer of the imperial government (magistrate, governor, etc.) with abilities tied to be a noble lord.
All very samurai in concept and cultural accuracy. The PF samurai on it's own depicts a simple samurai, the archetypes and prestige classes from Way of the Samurai bring that class into it's own.
The moral of the story is to keep an open mind about all of the classes, regardless of what setting you are using them in. They're just buckets of super powers, after all. If the powers fit the concept, go with it. Ignore the class name, and all the description, and just look at what the class allows you to do.
All very samurai in concept and cultural accuracy. The PF samurai on it's own depicts a simple samurai, the archetypes and prestige classes from Way of the Samurai bring that class into it's own.That's because we're playing Pathfinder where the Samurai is merely one of many character class choices instead of being the linchpin of group play that it would be in Legends of the 5 Rings.
That being said, there are archetypes and plenty of tools available for someone who wants to make his world more Rokugan than Golarion.
And while you could certainly use these variant samurai for a Rokugan game, this supplement was created for general use, and use in the Kaidan setting of Japanese horror - which is from the ground up designed for Pathfinder. That said, if your campaign is based in Minkai or Tian Xia, a samurai might just be the linchpin of group play that would be Pathfinder only. (Rokugan is my least favorite Japan-based setting being very poor on authenticity.)