Malwing wrote: I think the bigger question that I probably should have posted is "Should I enforce class options that help reinforce the setting's themes or trust that the PCs will do this on their own." Well this depends upon your gaming group, and it sounds like your group might require some class option enforcement to reinforce a setting's themes - I do this all the time. Individual players can come up with viable options to their preferences if they can prove it also reinforces the theme. If an option doesn't - ban it. Again, from my examples, I'm not suggesting to ban a class, but to alternatives to specific archetypes that best fit your theme, within that class choice. Like allow yamabushi paladins only, but not other archetypes if a player wants to be a paladin.
You have to state this up front to your players so they understand, with the option to opt out of play, if they aren't willing to cater to a setting's theme. Ask them to be open minded and follow your restrictions, or otherwise enforce the theme through limited archetype selection.
gamer-printer wrote: Malwing wrote: I think the bigger question that I probably should have posted is "Should I enforce class options that help reinforce the setting's themes or trust that the PCs will do this on their own." Well this depends upon your gaming group, and it sounds like your group might require some class option enforcement to reinforce a setting's themes - I do this all the time. Individual players can come up with viable options to their preferences if they can prove it also reinforces the theme. If an option doesn't - ban it. Again, from my examples, I'm not suggesting to ban a class, but to alternatives to specific archetypes that best fit your theme, within that class choice. Like allow yamabushi paladins only, but not other archetypes if a player wants to be a paladin.
You have to state this up front to your players so they understand, with the option to opt out of play, if they aren't willing to cater to a setting's theme. Ask them to be open minded and follow your restrictions, or otherwise enforce the theme through limited archetype selection. A paladin of Any Archetype could be a divinely imbued Samurai.
Archetype restriction isn't neccessary
unless the Archetype or class, blatantly defies the theme and isn't something that can be simply reskinned.
but that requires drastic levels of infringement to be worth the restriction
if you can't find a worthy class comparison
creature comparisons work just fine
Japan is the perfect setting for shapeshifting awakened housecat sorcerers, it has Nekomata
Orthos wrote: TheAntiElite wrote: The Quite-big-but-not-BIG Bad wrote: TheAntiElite wrote: The awesomest thing I've heard in ages I have to play this. If you want to play the vidgames, you'll need to import Sengoku Basaras 1&2, unless you get the HD remake collection on PS3, which is still an import but less region-lock issues naturally.
As far as 2 goes, Nobunaga Oda and Toyatomi Hideyoshi are firing lasers from their eyes so all arguments are invalid.
Sengoku Basara 3 was released for PS3, XBox, and Wii as Sengoku Basara: Samurai Heroes. The intro alone fills me with glee, especially as the group who did it, T.M. Revolution, does the theme in the series in Japan as well, so that they redid the song for English is a nice touch. 3 also marks the kid with the Hondam/Eidolon now as one of the central protagonists, all grown up and fighting with Gentlemanly Fisticuffs. And the most emo rival in the world, but that can be looked up for greater explanation.
A fourth game is coming. I want it NOW. This is the most glorious thing I have ever seen.
Also the guy with the red coat and headband looks familiar. Who is he? As mentioned by The Shaman, that would be Sanada Yukimura, who is voiced in English by Johnny Young Bosch, AKA Former Black Ranger, AKA an Imperial Tonnage of characters in Anime including Kurosaki Ichigo.
To be fair, though, Sengoku Basara, as a series, is made of sheer, condensed awesome, marbled with heaping helpings of crazy and outright-accepted anachronism where it fits.
To give a quick side-by-side with Sengoku Musou/Samurai Warriors...
Sanada Yukimura is a one-spear user in Koei's Musou series - in Capcom's Basara series, he uses TWO spears, is the embodiment of Hot Blooded, is something of an idiot hero, and gets into fist fights with his lord, Takeda Shingen, aka OYAKATASAMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
Speaking of Takeda, in Musou he's something of a shorter, broader middle-aged-or-older man, fighting with a tessen. In Basara he is SHEER DAMNED MANLINESS EMBODIED, and fights with a huge axe. Also, he's so much of a mountain of man that he rides not one, but TWO HORSES. STANDING ON THEIR BACKS. ONE UNDER EACH FOOT.
In Sengoku Musou, Uesegi Kenshin was something of a burly, grim-faced man with a 7-prong sword. In Sengoku Basara, he's...very bishonen. And voiced, both in English and Japanese, by the voice actor for Freeza from DBZ. Also, has ice powers and fights with iejutsu. Also, has the most fanservicey kunoichi in his service EVER. Who...fell in love with him during a failed assassination attempt. And that's not even taking into account historical rumors about the ambiguity of Kenshin's gender.
Given he and Yukimura are the headliners for most of the series, Date Masamune is required mentioning. In Sengoku Musou he was first the youngest cast member at 14, then slightly older, and in the first game fighting using bokken, and then a saber and pistols in the second games and onward. In Sengoku Basara, he's the undisputed badass leader of Oshu, with the horse with exhaust pipes, a clan that seems to be made out of traditional Japanese Banshou/gangsters, and fights with not one, not two, not three, but SIX FREAKING SWORDS. Plus he has the greatest love of Engrish this side of anything, more or less.
But seriously, it's worth checking out.
Someone need to go skim through the actual history of the time period.
Alchemists were trying to use chemicals and poisons to make immortals, just like in China. Alchemy was less about creating material wealth, like in Europe and the middle east and more about creating "super-soldiers" nearly a thousand years before us white devils would come up with the idea.
The Japanese gun came from China in 1270. During the Sengoku period (warring states) you want to use, Ashigaru (the peasant foot soldiers) were regularly armed with flintlocks and used the same mass-fire techniques we recognize from the British, and for the same reason.
The Japanese horse was a short scrawny misshapen thing that anywhere else would easily have been mistaken for a donkey or a mule. Except that
A) The Japanese didnt have any other option
B) The Japanese of the day weren't exactly giants themselves
Shinto (the idea that everything in nature has a spirit that must be appeased. Or else the spirit got pissed) was the "official" religion, while Buddhism was almost as wide-spread. So you have both clerics and druids.
Honestly, every single one of the current classes fits easily in, just by changing the "window dressing" on the class description, without even touching class mechanics.
As I so often tell new DMs at various teaching workshops: dont waste time with movies, anime, and fiction. Focus more on actual history books. You dont have to recreate history at all. But if you can replace about 10-15% of your game with terms, places, names, and words from what your trying to emulate, in your table's mind, your joss whedon, Ron Howard, George Lucas, and Steven Speilberg all rolled into one. You dont have to be accurate. The fact you looked at a factual book at all, much less recently, probably puts you worlds ahead of your players. And even if they do more know about the subject, they'll be so overjoyed to see it, they'll happily come in during off-0game time to help you fix the details and "get it right" just to help share their love with the other guys.
Just first make sure your "subject matter expert" actually knows what he's talking about and isnt basing his knowledge on a cartoon where giant robots poop rainbow unicorns that shoot lasers out their buts to kill Kaiju :roll:
dave.gillam wrote:
As I so often tell new DMs at various teaching workshops: dont waste time with movies, anime, and fiction. Focus more on actual history books. You dont have to recreate history at all. But if you can replace about 10-15% of your game with terms, places, names, and words from what your trying to emulate, in your table's mind, your joss whedon, Ron Howard, George Lucas, and Steven Speilberg all rolled into one. You dont have to be accurate. The fact you looked at a factual book at all, much less recently, probably puts you worlds ahead of your players. And even if they do more know about the subject, they'll be so overjoyed to see it, they'll happily come in during off-0game time to help you fix the details and "get it right" just to help share their love with the other guys.
Just first make sure your "subject matter expert" actually knows what he's talking about and isnt basing his knowledge on a cartoon where giant robots poop rainbow unicorns that shoot lasers out their buts to kill Kaiju :roll:
Unless you actually want to play a game where "giant robots poop rainbow unicorns that shoot lasers out their buts to kill Kaiju". It is a fantasy game, not a historical one. Genre fiction can be a much better source for genre gaming than actual history.
thejeff wrote: Unless you actually want to play a game where "giant robots poop rainbow unicorns that shoot lasers out their buts to kill Kaiju". It is a fantasy game, not a historical one. Genre fiction can be a much better source for genre gaming than actual history. True.
I always forget that caveat. But then, for some reason, even though I know the rule of assumptions, I still assume that one is a given.
Some day I'll remember. (lord knows what I'll forget then *shudder*) lol
One thing to remember is that every manga, anime, fairy tale, book, movie, etc, was somehow based, however loosely, on reality. You can create just as good as any of your favorite authors by looking at a history (or modern tech) book and tweaking one or two areas you find boring or lame.
Remember, most of today's totally over-the-top stories (regardless of format) that seem to have no tie to factual history, are simply the evolution of genres for years, decades, in some cases even centuries. (Heck, the Greek "Tragic Hero" that Stan Lee used for most his early Marvel comic story style has literally been around for Milena)
dave.gillam wrote: thejeff wrote: Unless you actually want to play a game where "giant robots poop rainbow unicorns that shoot lasers out their buts to kill Kaiju". It is a fantasy game, not a historical one. Genre fiction can be a much better source for genre gaming than actual history. True.
I always forget that caveat. But then, for some reason, even though I know the rule of assumptions, I still assume that one is a given.
Some day I'll remember. (lord knows what I'll forget then *shudder*) lol
One thing to remember is that every manga, anime, fairy tale, book, movie, etc, was somehow based, however loosely, on reality. You can create just as good as any of your favorite authors by looking at a history (or modern tech) book and tweaking one or two areas you find boring or lame.
Remember, most of today's totally over-the-top stories (regardless of format) that seem to have no tie to factual history, are simply the evolution of genres for years, decades, in some cases even centuries. (Heck, the Greek "Tragic Hero" that Stan Lee used for most his early Marvel comic story style has literally been around for Milena) So remember, if you want to play a Star Wars game, the best place to start isn't with the movies or other canon material, it's with hard science and star charts. :)
Look, if you want a realistic game or even a semi-realistic game in setting based on a particular culture, studying that real culture is important. But if you're aiming for genre, that genre is a better place to start. Even if those genres came about by evolving over centuries. You're not going to recapitulate that whole evolution yourself in a few weeks or months - even a lifetime.
thejeff wrote: So remember, if you want to play a Star Wars game, the best place to start isn't with the movies or other canon material, it's with hard science and star charts. :)
Look, if you want a realistic game or even a semi-realistic game in setting based on a particular culture, studying that real culture is important. But if you're aiming for genre, that genre is a better place to start. Even if those genres came about by evolving over centuries. You're not going to recapitulate that whole evolution yourself in a few weeks or months - even a lifetime.
Well, if you wanna pick fights by looking for things to get pissy about in my posts.... this could actually get kinda fun. Heck, I might even throw a bone or two; mid-terms are almost over, and its getting boring.
BTW, since you dont seem to realize, Lucas has publicly admitted a few times since the late 70s, most of the original 3 movies, most the characters, most plots, "the force", Giant monsters, wise old master, etc; yeah, that was all blatantly stolen from different stuff he found in Japanese culture. He was counting on Americans to be too ignorant to realize. (my words, not his; He's much more politic about how he phrases things) Here we are, 40 years later, and several public confessions from the creator, and even the nerds and geeks are still proving that basic assumption right.
Rather sad, it is.
I should add for others, since it does seem to be something I havent stressed enough in my last posts, part of history is religion.
Again, you dont have to go nuts.
Want to do an Arabian Nights style?
Those tales were based on the actual religion of the Arabian Peninsula before Islam. Wiki has enough to fake it.
Going Japanese? Call the princess (name)~hime (and make sure you pronounce it right). (last name)~san to address everyone. For an extra kick, half-orcs are (name)~oni. Heck, you can even get this from the sub anime (gotta get the Japanese language to catch how to add it right, though)
Wanna make it more Greek? Brush up on your classical mythology. (please dont trust Percy Jackson movies. Or Sorbo Hercules; DEAR GOD!! PLEASE dont use Sorbo Hercules as a source *shudder*)
Wanna recreate Napoleonic France? You dont have to read 5 books or know any towns. Doesnt hurt, but not necessary. Know how to say Baguette right. Have the NPCs use the french word for Musket (and practice that pronunciation)
its a hand full of little touches that require a glance at a real book 10 minutes before you game (just like cramming for a test lol) that arent hard. Part of the reason I was asked to start teaching classes on how to be a GM at my FLGS was because everyone thought I was a genius that knew everything about everything and couldnt be out-thought or out-planned. Most GMs that learned my secrets laughed their buts off (after they got over being mad (lol)
Between this and the Xanatos Gambit, Everyone thought I was the supreme GM, not realizing I was the cheapest trickster in the building.
Good points, while this is a fantasy game and fun and immersion are more important than real world accuracy, basing a setting on a game/movie/show/book series etc... leads to a 'clone of a clone' or 'Chinese whispers' effect. You base your setting on a setting that was based on the real world, or even another setting.
You dilute the original inspiration so much that it becomes bland.
... hm.. might actually be a good explanation for some of reasons why the most recent three Star Wars movies were so disappointing. Lucas based the original trilogy on Japanese culture but based the most recent three on the original trilogy, diluting it too much. They were quite bland to me (although the Phantom Menace had plenty of suck on it's own).
On the other hand, Exalted is based for a large part on the media depictions of oriental cultures, not on the oriental cultures themselves, and is kinda the better for it.
Well that's one thing I can claim in the development of Kaidan, the setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG), it is not based on a fictional book nor movie, rather collections of 19th century and earlier Japanese folklore and ghost stories - directly from the source material. Some actual history is borrowed, though adapted to fit Kaidan, which is in no way actual Japan. Media depictions are an antithesis to the concepts developed in Kaidan, so in no way was media depictions (east or west) included. No anime, manga nor other traditional Japanese media were used either.
One of the things that keep Japanese folklore closer to it's original state is that feudal traditions are only 150 years old versus say ancient greek cultural myths which are thousands of years old. The difference between the origin mythos and retelling in RPG format for most fantansy genres is centuries to millenia. Whereas medieval Japan ended in 1868. The retelling/recording of Japanese ghost and mythical folklore was largely recorded no sooner than the 1890's - making it fresh folklore culture compared to most other traditional folklore.
Kiozumi Yagumo (Lafcadio Hearn) is the lone source of Japanese folklore used in the development of Kaidan.
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And, imo, Kaidan kicks ass!!! A superb setting, if not my usual taste in gaming (I dont care for horror, personally; Im more comedy. Pathfinder needs rules for socking the BBEG with a dead fish!)
Its not the purity, or the lack of fantasy, but rather that "reality", (more properly in this usage should probably be "verisimilitude") with a tweak, was then fleshed out to tell a story.
If you look at any truly successful sci-fi, you find (and many authors suggest this) that you keep most of reality intact, and just shift a bit one specific thing. Otherwise it becomes too unbelievable, and you lose the audience.
hopefully if you are doing any world building, you are pulling from real world history, genre, folklore, and mythology. Those are not mutually exclusive sources of inspiration
MMCJawa wrote: hopefully if you are doing any world building, you are pulling from real world history, genre, folklore, and mythology. Those are not mutually exclusive sources of inspiration Mix well with imagation. The secret ingredient, is love~.
:headscratch:
I thought it was pureed babies mixed with hot sauce?
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