Let's play: Is that evil?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

A good character who fights to defend the weak and innocent but revels in the blood of his enemies.

I stabbed a human enemy through the sternum instantly killing him, raised my glaive above my head, yelling to the sky in a rage. While the glaive was over my head, some blood dripped off my blade and fell onto my face and into my mouth and I enjoyed it.

Is that evil?


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**Doesn't think this will end anywhere but in tears**

Silver Crusade

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Sounds like Dexter. If you kill because you like it, but only kill bad guys because it allows you to avoid attention from the law, or to claim the mantle of "goodness," you are evil. You have just chosen prey that society does not value as highly, making you clever, not virtuous. Motives matter as much as actions.


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Yes. Everyone knows Evil is magically delicious!

Silver Crusade

Sober Caydenite wrote:
Sounds like Dexter. If you kill because you like it, but only kill bad guys because it allows you to avoid attention from the law, or to claim the mantle of "goodness," you are evil. You have just chosen prey that society does not value as highly, making you clever, not virtuous. Motives matter as much as actions.

BUT....I only kill those who fist attack me. Unlike Dexter, I don't go looking for people to kill good, bad, or indifferent. I only delight in the victory because you have first declared me your enemy.


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is this a 'justify my too-creepy RP moment' question? because it's blood. in your mouth. you can't find wiggle room there.

Silver Crusade

This PC is evolving into a bloodthirsty Cleric. As time goes on his thirst for battle grows and grows and his twisted sense of glory to his Good God is becoming more and more demented. I am just curious if his love of justifiable killing on the battlefield is considered evil for PFS rules.

I would also argue if you are not having a 'too creepy RP moment' every once in a while then you're not doing it right.


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Its possible reveling in the pain and suffering of people isn't exactly the most moral thing in everyone's eyes, but so long as you aren't disruptive and aren't actively pursuing the suffering of others I don't see a problem with it. However, keep in mind people don't want a 15 minute session on bathing in blood, and its not always appropriate to squick out the party.

Yeebin wrote:
This PC is evolving into a bloodthirsty Cleric. As time goes on his thirst for battle grows and grows and his twisted sense of glory to his Good God is becoming more and more demented. I am just curious if his love of justifiable killing on the battlefield is considered evil for PFS rules.

Several gods actually want you to be bloodthirsty, some are good. Gorum himself is CN, Ragathiel has killing people as his obedience, Torag takes no prisoners, etc. Doesn't strike as evil to me, personally. However you probably shouldn't test the waters with total strangers. That said, traveling murder hobo's fit just well in society don't they?

Yeebin wrote:
I would also argue if you are not having a 'too creepy RP moment' every once in a while then you're not doing it right.

With your friends maybe, but with total strangers that sometimes include children... Hit or miss imo.


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Of course it's not evil. You already said your killing was justified, so that just leaves the blood. Leeches and mosquitoes drink blood and they're incapable of being moral or immoral. Neutral at worst.

Silver Crusade

MrSin wrote:
With your friends maybe, but with total strangers that sometimes include children... Hit or miss imo.

Just because I RP doesn't mean don't have any decorum. I likely wouldn't even say the word blood, death, or even kill if I was playing with kids.


Yeebin wrote:

This PC is evolving into a bloodthirsty Cleric. As time goes on his thirst for battle grows and grows and his twisted sense of glory to his Good God is becoming more and more demented. I am just curious if his love of justifiable killing on the battlefield is considered evil for PFS rules.

I would also argue if you are not having a 'too creepy RP moment' every once in a while then you're not doing it right.

If you're using a glaive as a cleric, that means your god is Shelyn?

Shelyn is a "make love no war" goddess, her paladin code includes "I am peaceful, I come first with a rose. I act to prevent conflict before it blossoms." And her taboos section opens with "In your quest to bring beauty to others, you mist first stamp out the ugliness in your own character..."

So, if you are devoted to Shelyn, you're treading a thin line. If you were at my table, I'd warn you that repeatedly acting like that might force you into an atonement. (I'd also probably make it a standard action requiring a strength check to lift someone up over your head with a glaive.)

Personally, I'd likely think you were pretty creepy if you started RPing like that. It might be OK in a private setting where everyone knows each other pretty well, but at a public game day it would put me on edge and I might ask you to tone it down. It depends on circumstances, of course, but it's not just kids that you have to watch out for. Plenty of adults just aren't comfortable with people acting out that kind of imagery.


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Thirst for battle is supposed to be a metaphor dude.


Akerlof wrote:
Shelyn is a "make love no war" goddess, her paladin code includes "I am peaceful, I come first with a rose. I act to prevent conflict before it blossoms." And her taboos section opens with "In your quest to bring beauty to others, you mist first stamp out the ugliness in your own character..."

On the other hand, wiping out conflicts before they are resolved, never striking first, making combat your art, and living your life by that ideal your actually just fine. Art is subjective, and I think you just failed as a paladin of Shelyn by not respecting it.(I should not I'm not serious, Shelyn is probably not the best choice.)

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Thirst for battle is supposed to be a metaphor dude.

Do they not sell it canned anymore?


MrSin wrote:
Akerlof wrote:
Shelyn is a "make love no war" goddess, her paladin code includes "I am peaceful, I come first with a rose. I act to prevent conflict before it blossoms." And her taboos section opens with "In your quest to bring beauty to others, you mist first stamp out the ugliness in your own character..."

On the other hand, wiping out conflicts before they are resolved, making combat your art, and living your life by that ideal your actually just fine. Art is subjective, and I think you just failed as a paladin of Shelyn by not respecting it.

Another Shelyn quote: "I lead by example, not with my blade. Where my blade passes life is cut short, and the world's potential for beauty is cut short."

Shelyn isn't a postmodern art goddess, she's a peace-love-and-pretty-things goddess. Killing as performance art really doesn't fit. Anyway, killing in self defense or defense of others is not evil, glorying in killing, showing off while you're doing it, "evolving into a bloodthirsty Cleric" is treading on thin ice.

And RPing that way is pushing boundaries of good taste, especially when there are strangers around.



PRD on Alignment

PRD wrote:

Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.

Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent, but may lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others.

I think if happened at my table I'd give you a weird look, but outside of vampires I don't think Pathfinder takes a hard look on the virtue or sinfulness of tasting human blood.


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Yeebin wrote:
This PC is evolving into a bloodthirsty Cleric. As time goes on his thirst for battle grows and grows and his twisted sense of glory to his Good God is becoming more and more demented. I am just curious if his love of justifiable killing on the battlefield is considered evil for PFS rules.

Your cleric isn't becoming evil, s/he's simply becoming a Pathfinder.

-Matt


There's indeed more to this question than just "is showing off and drinking blood (and enjoying it) evil?".

The first part was already mentioned: Which deity does your cleric worship. If it's really Shelyn, then your problem is, as has already been said, not your alignment but your connection to your goddess.
If you made a cleric of Shelyn just to gain proficiency with the glaive, then I would advise you to read about the various religions of Golarion before playing a cleric ;)
On the other hand, if you gained the glaive proficiency by being a cleric of Baphomet, then I suppose your character's behavior fits well into your deity's portfolio (although then he should mostly try to lure his opponents into twisting back alleys and murder them there. Just pick up a copy of the Inner Sea World Guide and read about Baphomet to know what I mean ;) )

The second part that should be considered is the character's cultural background. If he's Taldan or Andoran, for example, it would not be ok to be bloodthirsty.
If he's Ulfen, Kellid, or maybe Mwangi, then it wouldn't be such a strange choice for him to revel in his victory the way you described (especially if he's from a Mammoth Lord following).
But then, Shelyn wouldn't be a good choice whith that cultural background.

Silver Crusade

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I think the majority of players look at their character's alignment, motivations, mentality, outlook on life, etc.. as a static thing. This seems to me at best as a less interesting way of RPing and at worst plain ole boring.

I like to think as we all do in real life that my PCs evolve and change based on their experiences.

Imagine if you will a priest in the catholic church. He's mid twenties and has a good heart and wants to help people. Then he's drafted into the army, trained as a soldier, sent to Iraq, has a machine gun in many battles, kills some terrorists, comes home from his tour in Iraq, gets out of the military and returns to his priestly profession. Now let's compare priest in the church pre and post war. Same guy but I would imagine his experiences in war has at least changed something about his outlook.

My point is just because my PC grew up loving art and beauty and worshiping Shelyn and using his Glaive for good, doesn't mean that his battles and killings while apart of the society has not changed him in some way. In this case, he's still interested in protecting the innocent and helping the weak, but he has sort of taken pleasure and enjoyment of killing his enemies in battle. This is starting to warp his view and what he considers art. His skill on the battlefield is in his mind an art form and giving glory to Shelyn. He just took a level in barbarian as he realized the rush of his rage could help him focus on the battlefield.

All of his previous experiences make him what he is today, a good cleric of shelyn, but that doesn't automatically mean that's what he will continue to be. If that means an alignment change to Neutral, I'm ok with that. That's how he's evolving. I just wanted to know if its evil.


This is funny, my inquisitor of Gorum is kind of like that. He is CN and have rage domain, chopping people with mad laughter, yet only ones who harm others or in some way or do injustice.

I see this more like becoming chaotic than becoming evil, as chotic means being driven by emotions over logic.

Grand Lodge

You know the saying...if you gotta ask...

That said, more then the alignment issue, I would say your bigger issues is your connection to your deity as a cleric. You have to follow the tennents of your deity as a cleric to continue to get spells. I am seriously failing to see how killing and reveling in the blood of your enemies is promoting the teaching of shelyn. In fact I would say such actions are at direct opposition to your deity. That's what is gonna cause an issue here...not your alignment.

Also emotion over logic does not mean chaotic. Insane people are chaotic...right? Sociopaths are insane. They also come up with the most efficient and logical solution with no influence of the emotional impact of those around them or themselves. You can be SO logical that your actually chaotic :P .


Cold Napalm wrote:

You know the saying...if you gotta ask...

That said, more then the alignment issue, I would say your bigger issues is your connection to your deity as a cleric. You have to follow the tennents of your deity as a cleric to continue to get spells. I am seriously failing to see how killing and reveling in the blood of your enemies is promoting the teaching of shelyn. In fact I would say such actions are at direct opposition to your deity. That's what is gonna cause an issue here...not your alignment.

How is walking along a stone path, eating, or breathing helping your goddess? Are you choosing meals that promote art? Are you breathing in an artistic manner? Are you walking in a way that promotes art? Are you doing an awesome battle dance through your chosen art and promoting Shelyn while stopping that which destroys and preserving priceless artifacts as you travel across the lands spreading the teachings of Shelyn and leading by example?

Working in direct opposition is very different from just doing something unrelated. Actively pursuing the destruction of artwork for instance is likely a problem, but stopping evil and enjoying your job isn't exactly on my list of bad things.

Silver Crusade

MrSin wrote:
Working in direct opposition is very different from just doing something unrelated. Actively pursuing the destruction of artwork for instance is likely a problem, but stopping evil and enjoying your job isn't exactly on my list of bad things.

This is my sentiment exactly. I will continue to RP in this way and not feel like I am going against PFS rules.


Look, enjoying what you do doesn't (generally) invalidate your choices or actions.


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Yeebin wrote:

some blood dripped off my blade and fell onto my face and into my mouth and I enjoyed it.

Is that evil?

Depends:

Are you a Dhampir?

Did you gain any sort of mechanical benefit from it (temp HP, combat bonuses, etc.)?

If the answer to these questions is no, then it wasn't evil.

Because the way this game world works, drinking blood is just creepy and inappropriate, as long as you gain no benefit from it (if you do it's OMG so Evil).

So, there you go. A rare circumstance where this little quirk of stupidity in the rules helps you. =)


Akerlof wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Akerlof wrote:
Shelyn is a "make love no war" goddess, her paladin code includes "I am peaceful, I come first with a rose. I act to prevent conflict before it blossoms." And her taboos section opens with "In your quest to bring beauty to others, you mist first stamp out the ugliness in your own character..."

On the other hand, wiping out conflicts before they are resolved, making combat your art, and living your life by that ideal your actually just fine. Art is subjective, and I think you just failed as a paladin of Shelyn by not respecting it.

Another Shelyn quote: "I lead by example, not with my blade. Where my blade passes life is cut short, and the world's potential for beauty is cut short."

Shelyn isn't a postmodern art goddess, she's a peace-love-and-pretty-things goddess. Killing as performance art really doesn't fit. Anyway, killing in self defense or defense of others is not evil, glorying in killing, showing off while you're doing it, "evolving into a bloodthirsty Cleric" is treading on thin ice.

And RPing that way is pushing boundaries of good taste, especially when there are strangers around.

I'm gonna have to second this. There's a reason why their is more paladins and clerics not devoted to an actual deity than their are shelyn clerics and paladins. They are the talk the person down first, ALWAYS believing that tbeir opponent can be redeemed, and only striking out as a last option.


Redneckdevil wrote:
There's a reason why their is more paladins and clerics not devoted to an actual deity than their are shelyn clerics and paladins.

Is it because the ideal one is more fun? Is it because this is one particular god of many? Is it because the ideal worshippers get to pick their ideas and build their own character? Is it because PFS actually doesn't allow clerics/paladins without a deity?

Silver Crusade

It should be noted that there was no actual drinking of blood. Just because some dripped on my face while I was shouting to the sky in enjoyment doesn't mean I was drinking the blood of my slain enemies.

No more than you drink water when you are in the shower even though you may enjoy a mouth full of shower water to wash away a bit of your morning breath...assuming you shower. Yes I've been to some pf games with some ppl where I would seriously question that. :)

In any event. As I may have been a choir boy cleric of Shelyn at one point, I am clearly not that cleric any longer. I am complicated. How my level of barbarian will factor in from here on out....I'm very curious to see how that will go.


Too little information was given to determine if you are good or evil. This action sounds awfully chaotic, but even that much is uncertain.


Yeebin wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Working in direct opposition is very different from just doing something unrelated. Actively pursuing the destruction of artwork for instance is likely a problem, but stopping evil and enjoying your job isn't exactly on my list of bad things.
This is my sentiment exactly. I will continue to RP in this way and not feel like I am going against PFS rules.

It's stuff like this why PFS is not worth bothering with. This, and the smell of student housing.


Killing? Shouting? Drink blood? Revel and glee?

Few more months such behavior and INT drop to 2. Then alignment not problem.

Silver Crusade

@Yeebin: There's nothing legal or illegal about your PFS play. When you cross the fairly well-publicized lines into evil actions you lose your character. It sucks. Don't be evil. The premise of Society play, form the outset, is "You are not evil". There is nothing wrong with enjoying your job, or reveling in the defeat of your opponents. It's kind of arrogant, makes you a bit of a jerk. "Ha ha! I cut your face and your blood was sweeeet!" None of that makes you evil. If someone said something, then shrug and let it go. Morality and Ethics in this country have a very narrow perspective. Many societies ate the dead to honor them. Eat the heart for the courage, the brains for the wisdom, and the testicles for the virility or life force. Having a bit of battle fever and enjoying battle is a modern era taboo. It used to be a survival trait. So revel in the blood of the slain and commend their souls to your deity as willing acts of contrition and sacrifice. Embrace the cleansing of the unworthy, just as long as you remember where the lines are. Don't stab your friends. Don't murder the helpless. No genocide or manufactured plagues. Kicking babies is right out.

Makarion wrote:
Yeebin wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Working in direct opposition is very different from just doing something unrelated. Actively pursuing the destruction of artwork for instance is likely a problem, but stopping evil and enjoying your job isn't exactly on my list of bad things.
This is my sentiment exactly. I will continue to RP in this way and not feel like I am going against PFS rules.
It's stuff like this why PFS is not worth bothering with. This, and the smell of student housing.

Note sure where your play PFS, but where I live we play at the local pub, many fine game stores with clean and pleasant atmospheres and snack tabs, as well as other pretty amazing venues. So far everyone has been hygienically appropriate and with a varying array of characters from "OH MY GOD why did you spend more than one game playing that outrageous monstrosity and why is it still alive?!" to "OH MY GOD how is it legal to do that much damage and do we have to pay insurance premiums for the npcs because that looked expensive". I don't play Pathfinder except as Pathfinder Society.


I would not rule this as evil so much as chaotic. If you go to far you might end up CG or even CN of you stop taking surrenders and what not.


Yeebin wrote:

It should be noted that there was no actual drinking of blood. Just because some dripped on my face while I was shouting to the sky in enjoyment doesn't mean I was drinking the blood of my slain enemies.

No more than you drink water when you are in the shower even though you may enjoy a mouth full of shower water to wash away a bit of your morning breath...assuming you shower. Yes I've been to some pf games with some ppl where I would seriously question that. :)

In any event. As I may have been a choir boy cleric of Shelyn at one point, I am clearly not that cleric any longer. I am complicated. How my level of barbarian will factor in from here on out....I'm very curious to see how that will go.

Sounds to me like you just want to argue.

Silver Crusade

Rictras Shard wrote:
Sounds to me like you just want to argue.

Clearly you didn't get the memo on what you are supposed to do on message boards :)


If I happened to be GM at your table...

...the Klingon/Viking/Half-Orc Battle Rage wouldn't bother me, as long as the RP wasn't over-the-top or too time-consuming for the current group.

BUT it WOULD be problematic for Shelyn, who I would have give you a couple of warnings before you lost all your clerical abilities altogether-- including proficiency with the glaive.

At which point you could
1) Atone and get back into line with Shelyn

2) Find a new god whose beliefs better suit your new, evolved belief system-- with all the penalties that switching gods entails, or

3) Lose your cleric levels altogether and switch to a class where spells are not given by an entity with a clear set of guidelines in opposition to what has now become yours.

Grand Lodge

MrSin wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:

You know the saying...if you gotta ask...

That said, more then the alignment issue, I would say your bigger issues is your connection to your deity as a cleric. You have to follow the tennents of your deity as a cleric to continue to get spells. I am seriously failing to see how killing and reveling in the blood of your enemies is promoting the teaching of shelyn. In fact I would say such actions are at direct opposition to your deity. That's what is gonna cause an issue here...not your alignment.

How is walking along a stone path, eating, or breathing helping your goddess? Are you choosing meals that promote art? Are you breathing in an artistic manner? Are you walking in a way that promotes art? Are you doing an awesome battle dance through your chosen art and promoting Shelyn while stopping that which destroys and preserving priceless artifacts as you travel across the lands spreading the teachings of Shelyn and leading by example?

Working in direct opposition is very different from just doing something unrelated. Actively pursuing the destruction of artwork for instance is likely a problem, but stopping evil and enjoying your job isn't exactly on my list of bad things.

Not spending every moment of your life devote to your deity is not a problem and should NEVER be a problem...so that is a strawman right there. Now the second part of your argument is that your preserving artifacts by KILLING others and your doing art by KILLING...umm did you even bother to read up on shelyn?!? Sorry, but NO...just NO.


Sounds lawful evil to me. You enjoy killing (evil), you just have strict rules about (lawful).

However, I would not make an issue out of it. I understand you lose your character in PFS if you're evil and, as long as you weren't bothering the other players, I wouldn't mark it as evil. (Or whatever they do in PFS, I don't really play it.)


Cold Napalm wrote:
Not spending every moment of your life devote to your deity is not a problem and should NEVER be a problem...so that is a strawman right there. Now the second part of your argument is that your preserving artifacts by KILLING others and your doing art by KILLING...umm did you even bother to read up on shelyn?!? Sorry, but NO...just NO.

I have read up on Shelyn, I keep double checking it to make sure I'm not contradicting it. Maybe your just adding your own opinion to the Dogma?(happens all the time in dnd) Where does it say cutting down Aspis or demons from the world wound or servants of the runelords is a bad thing?(you could pretend those guys are innocent?) I mean, as long as your not going out of your way to murder artist, create conflict, break violins, and destroy relationships... Treating fighting as an art is entirely reasonable, and is actually part of worship for a LG deity.


Yeebin wrote:

A good character who fights to defend the weak and innocent but revels in the blood of his enemies.

I stabbed a human enemy through the sternum instantly killing him, raised my glaive above my head, yelling to the sky in a rage. While the glaive was over my head, some blood dripped off my blade and fell onto my face and into my mouth and I enjoyed it.

Is that evil?

"Is that evil?" - my favorite game :D

Character alignment allows for nuance. The alignment of acts, do not.

"I stabbed a human enemy through the sternum etc etc... for no other reason than enjoying the feeling" <- Evil

"I stabbed a human enemy through the sternum etc etc... because I was hungry, and he was food, food I needed to eat, to live" <- Neutral

"I stabbed a human enemy through the sternum etc etc... because he was a threat to these poor innocent children" <- Neutral...wait what?!

Yep, cuz killing is an evil act. If tempered with good or sufficiently neutral motives, it becomes a neutral act. But killing is never a good act :)

So? "Is that evil?" ... "Only if you don't have motivation and reason on your side"

-Nearyn


I think this highlights a problem with a static alignment system.

To be honest, I think for most games its an anachronism that should be removed from the RPG.


MrSin wrote:


I have read up on Shelyn, I keep double checking it to make sure I'm not contradicting it. Maybe your just adding your own opinion to the Dogma?(happens all the time in dnd) Where does it say cutting down Aspis or demons from the world wound or servants of the runelords is a bad thing?(you could pretend those guys are innocent?) I mean, as long as your not going out of your way to murder artist, create conflict, break violins, and destroy relationships... Treating fighting as an art is entirely reasonable, and is actually part of worship for a LG deity.

Killing them is usually not a bad thing. Reveling in killing them is a bad thing that Shelyn would frown upon.


Rictras Shard wrote:
MrSin wrote:
I have read up on Shelyn, I keep double checking it to make sure I'm not contradicting it. Maybe your just adding your own opinion to the Dogma?(happens all the time in dnd) Where does it say cutting down Aspis or demons from the world wound or servants of the runelords is a bad thing?(you could pretend those guys are innocent?) I mean, as long as your not going out of your way to murder artist, create conflict, break violins, and destroy relationships... Treating fighting as an art is entirely reasonable, and is actually part of worship for a LG deity.
Killing them is usually not a bad thing. Reveling in killing them is a bad thing that Shelyn would frown upon.

Why do you think that?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If human, it might mean he's deranged, but not evil.


MrSin wrote:


Why do you think that?

It is clear from reading the description of Shelyn that she does not like seeing things killed, and wants her worshippers only using lethal measures as a last resort. This means she views killing as a sad thing, not something to be enjoyed or celebrated.


Rictras Shard wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Why do you think that?
It is clear from reading the description of Shelyn that she does not like seeing things killed, and wants her worshippers only using lethal measures as a last resort. This means she views killing as a sad thing, not something to be enjoyed or celebrated.

Its non-existent as far as any dogma's are concerned. Her dogmas is beauty, art, and love. I think your injecting your own views into her actual dogma, and that's fine, but when you say someone deserves to lose their character over it, that's not so cool.


Nearyn wrote:
Yeebin wrote:

A good character who fights to defend the weak and innocent but revels in the blood of his enemies.

I stabbed a human enemy through the sternum instantly killing him, raised my glaive above my head, yelling to the sky in a rage. While the glaive was over my head, some blood dripped off my blade and fell onto my face and into my mouth and I enjoyed it.

Is that evil?

"Is that evil?" - my favorite game :D

Character alignment allows for nuance. The alignment of acts, do not.

"I stabbed a human enemy through the sternum etc etc... for no other reason than enjoying the feeling" <- Evil

"I stabbed a human enemy through the sternum etc etc... because I was hungry, and he was food, food I needed to eat, to live" <- Neutral

"I stabbed a human enemy through the sternum etc etc... because he was a threat to these poor innocent children" <- Neutral...wait what?!

Yep, cuz killing is an evil act. If tempered with good or sufficiently neutral motives, it becomes a neutral act. But killing is never a good act :)

So? "Is that evil?" ... "Only if you don't have motivation and reason on your side"

-Nearyn

This. Exactly This.

It is Lawful Evil.

The Act of Enjoying the Killing is Evil, but then limiting that enjoyment to only 'Bad Guys' is Lawful.

The lawful evil person knows that killing is looked down upon, but forgets/doesn't-understand/doesn't-care why. If he likes killing, and he notices that people complain less when 'Bad Guys' die, then he starts to kill THEM instead so he can get away with it/pretend to be the 'Good-Guy'. He is more concerned with his enjoyment (Evil) then the fact that every life is supposed to be equal and sacred. He finds a way within the law (Lawful) to get what he wants.
(Lawful Evil in a nut shell)


MrSin wrote:
Rictras Shard wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Why do you think that?
It is clear from reading the description of Shelyn that she does not like seeing things killed, and wants her worshippers only using lethal measures as a last resort. This means she views killing as a sad thing, not something to be enjoyed or celebrated.
Its non-existent as far as any dogma's are concerned. Her dogmas is beauty, art, and love. I think your injecting your own views into her actual dogma, and that's fine, but when you say someone deserves to lose their character over it, that's not so cool.

Then you either haven't actually read the descriptions of Shelyn and her dogma, or don't understand them.


Rictras Shard wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Rictras Shard wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Why do you think that?
It is clear from reading the description of Shelyn that she does not like seeing things killed, and wants her worshippers only using lethal measures as a last resort. This means she views killing as a sad thing, not something to be enjoyed or celebrated.
Its non-existent as far as any dogma's are concerned. Her dogmas is beauty, art, and love. I think your injecting your own views into her actual dogma, and that's fine, but when you say someone deserves to lose their character over it, that's not so cool.
Then you either haven't actually read the descriptions of Shelyn and her dogma, or don't understand them.

I could say the same to you. Lets not back and forth. Claims like that don't do any good, and insults are definitely not needed.


Yes and no, as always.


Nearyn wrote:
Yeebin wrote:

A good character who fights to defend the weak and innocent but revels in the blood of his enemies.

I stabbed a human enemy through the sternum instantly killing him, raised my glaive above my head, yelling to the sky in a rage. While the glaive was over my head, some blood dripped off my blade and fell onto my face and into my mouth and I enjoyed it.

Is that evil?

"Is that evil?" - my favorite game :D

Character alignment allows for nuance. The alignment of acts, do not.

"I stabbed a human enemy through the sternum etc etc... for no other reason than enjoying the feeling" <- Evil

"I stabbed a human enemy through the sternum etc etc... because I was hungry, and he was food, food I needed to eat, to live" <- Neutral

"I stabbed a human enemy through the sternum etc etc... because he was a threat to these poor innocent children" <- Neutral...wait what?!

Yep, cuz killing is an evil act. If tempered with good or sufficiently neutral motives, it becomes a neutral act. But killing is never a good act :)

So? "Is that evil?" ... "Only if you don't have motivation and reason on your side"

-Nearyn

Even though I think this is soundly thought out and in the real world is probably the case, by RAW I do not believe killing is an evil act in Pathfinder. Otherwise it would be impossible to be a good adventurer seeing as how adventurers' main job is killing. The best you could do would be to be neutral.

In the real world "good" people turn the other cheek. In pathfinder good people kill the offender and then kill all of the offender's friends in the vicinity too as standard practice.

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