Is (was) Aroden still a single class wizard?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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For years now, Aroden is mentioned as having been a wizard, and as far as I know, every time we see anything approaching crunch for him, it's suggested that he was a single class wizard, in spite of his preference to rock the sword and board. In an earlier thread, JJ said that he was a wizard that used a special type of magic that took advantage of a sword and shield. Alright, not quite my cup of tea, but I guess I'll swallow that.

Thing is, we've been getting more and more art of Aroden lately, and whether he's ready to plant a blow firmly upon Deskari's noggin or he's just swinging his burning sword towards the reader in visual soliloquy, most of the art we have of him is pretty much him using his sword like anyone else would.

Now I'm not saying that he doesn't seem like a wizard - we have plenty of lore to support his mastery of all things arcane. To me though, he comes across as someone who was a very accomplished spellcaster and a very accomplished warrior, and any way you slice it, that sounds like an Eldritch Knight to me.

As mentioned, JJ said that he is a wizard who found a way to use a sword with his magic, but if that means (as artwork would suggest) that he basically used a sword along with his magic, well, isn't that pretty much exactly what the EK is supposed to represent - a spellcaster who has also learned how use weapons?


Or maybe he took martial-weapon proficiency. Or heck, maybe he was a magus.

Or he actually had no idea how to use a sword and was just Bluff-feinting the heck out of everyone he fought.

Grand Lodge

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Or maybe he was big on using the transformation spell which would have given him a BAB equal to his character level and some other nice fighter buffs when he didn't feel like casting for awhile.

Maybe he was so awesome that he could continue being a wizard even while under the aspects of transformation.

He's a story character. He was mythic enough to go tell the rule books to sit in a corner and behave themselves.


Transformation.

Still spell.

Grand Lodge

Lemartes wrote:

Transformation.

Still spell.

And this means what?


Basically what you said transformation spell. Got ninja'd.

The still spell feat means he could cast spells without dropping his sword or shield.


Well, at wizard 20 he has 10 BAB. That makes him martially superior to most people. Combine all the magic he has that could buff his Str into absurd levels and the arcane strike mythic archmage ability, and he could be a pretty accomplished melee wizard. Sure, it's not as efficient as using spells, but when you don't need to be at your absolute best, it's a good way to kill time (and things that aren't as awesome as you)


he was at least a single class wizard with at least 10 mythic tiers, as for his weapon, when you get up to 30th level wizard, it all evens out. he was a bad ass for sure!


Actually, he was a 21st level commoner with a really buff UMD check....

Liberty's Edge

I can see him as a magus, but I think James said somewhere that there weren't any magi in Azlant/Thassilon.

Grand Lodge

He's specifically listed as a 19+ non-specialised Wizard in that book that lists notable spellcasters. Presumably this would represent him at some point during his mortal career.


The Runelords were all vanilla conjurers with glaive weapon proficiencies if I remember correctly, so I don't see why Aroden couldn't have done the same with sword and board.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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He was a single-classed wizard who use a sword and shield. Doing that, and doing that well, is perhaps one of the reasons he became a god! :-)

Shadow Lodge

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Tirisfal wrote:
conjurers

There was a Runelord for each specialty.

Shadow Lodge

Aroden managed to do that well because unlike actual PCs and NPCs, he is just a historical figure within the setting, as as such remains unencumbered by having to conform to the rules of the Pathfinder system.

Dark Archive

Treat game fluff like you treat fluff in anything else, add or remove as much as you want to make it comfortable for you.


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James Jacobs wrote:
He was a single-classed wizard who use a sword and shield. Doing that, and doing that well, is perhaps one of the reasons he became a god! :-)

Are you suggesting the Starstone only grants Godhood to un-optimized builds? It would explain why less vaunted options such as a Sword-and-Board Paladin, a Rogue and whatever Cayden was, are the few success stories. :P


The question I have is, was he still a wizard after he became a god? Do such things even matter for deities? What about deities who were never mortal, do any of them have class levels?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Physically Unfeasible wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
He was a single-classed wizard who use a sword and shield. Doing that, and doing that well, is perhaps one of the reasons he became a god! :-)
Are you suggesting the Starstone only grants Godhood to un-optimized builds? It would explain why less vaunted options such as a Sword-and-Board Paladin, a Rogue and whatever Cayden was, are the few success stories. :P

Story ALWAYS trumps optimization.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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lordzack wrote:
The question I have is, was he still a wizard after he became a god? Do such things even matter for deities? What about deities who were never mortal, do any of them have class levels?

We don't have rules for full deities.

As for demigods, we CAN stat them up... but we can change things as well as we need.

If you ABSOLUTELY WANTED to stat up Aroden... I would suggest doing so by giving him 20 wizard levels, 10 champion tiers, and a stack of unique powers and the like. Use those unique powers to shore up any "unoptomized" stains on his character sheet.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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Physically Unfeasible wrote:
whatever Cayden was

Drunk.

Also lucky.

Shadow Lodge

Has Cayden ever asked any of the other Starstone deities what the Starstone is like?

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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Kthulhu wrote:
Has Cayden ever asked any of the other Starstone deities what the Starstone is like?

Aroden is dead/missing.

Norgorber doesn't share information.
And something tells me Iomedae doesn't talk to him much.

Well, I suppose he could have asked Aroden before he disappeared...


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Cayden walks into Aroden's palace in Axis.

Cayden: Hey Aroden, what's the starstone like?
Aroden: don't you remember?
Cayden: No I was drunk.
Aroden: Oh for the love of, remind me to improve the stone's defenses. Why don't you ask Iomedae?
Cayden: We had an argument on the subject of government recently, and Norgerber won't tell me.
Aroden: *exhales* The starstone is like feeling your entire body electrified with power and your senses achieving a higher level of perception.
Cayden: so it's like getting hit with a lightning bolt and taking hallucinogens, I'm glad I was drunk.
Aroden: NO not like that.
Calistra: it's like spending a night with me.
Cayden: Ok, now I regret being drunk.
Aroden: I need to buy a lock for my door.


zergtitan wrote:
funny stuff!

hahahahaha!

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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zergtitan wrote:
argument on the subject of government

I have to assume this is a euphemism.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ross Byers wrote:
zergtitan wrote:
argument on the subject of government
I have to assume this is a euphemism.

Well it actually was about government till his hand on her rear set the conversation to end on a sour note and a red handprint on his face.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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We need more Gods whose temples are more than temples. Abadar does banks and courthouses. Calistra brothels. Cayden does bars. To a lesser degree, Torag does forges (and he and Cayden probably share breweries and distilleries.) Asmodeus also does courthouses.


Nimon wrote:


Treat game content like you treat fluff in anything else, add or remove as much as you want to make it comfortable for you.

Fixed for you: add or remove crunch as much as you want as well.

lordzack wrote:
The question I have is, was he still a wizard after he became a god? Do such things even matter for deities? What about deities who were never mortal, do any of them have class levels?

If you are trying to stat up gods, I'd probably use Deities and Demigods (most of the rules can be found online for free in the srd, but actual sample stat-blocks are only shown in one now-out-of-print book.) Most of the unique divine abilities are very vague, which IMHO is a good thing for deity statistics if you don't want to fight them directly. If you are actually planning on having your players fight Aroden...you'll need to work pretty hard to keep his abilities from being unmanageable in-combat.

Grand Lodge

James Jacobs wrote:
lordzack wrote:
The question I have is, was he still a wizard after he became a god? Do such things even matter for deities? What about deities who were never mortal, do any of them have class levels?

We don't have rules for full deities.

As for demigods, we CAN stat them up... but we can change things as well as we need.

If you ABSOLUTELY WANTED to stat up Aroden... I would suggest doing so by giving him 20 wizard levels, 10 champion tiers, and a stack of unique powers and the like. Use those unique powers to shore up any "unoptomized" stains on his character sheet.

You don't see him as a dual pathed Champion/Archmage?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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LazarX wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
lordzack wrote:
The question I have is, was he still a wizard after he became a god? Do such things even matter for deities? What about deities who were never mortal, do any of them have class levels?

We don't have rules for full deities.

As for demigods, we CAN stat them up... but we can change things as well as we need.

If you ABSOLUTELY WANTED to stat up Aroden... I would suggest doing so by giving him 20 wizard levels, 10 champion tiers, and a stack of unique powers and the like. Use those unique powers to shore up any "unoptomized" stains on his character sheet.

You don't see him as a dual pathed Champion/Archmage?

That could work too... but I must admit, I do enjoy the challenge of statting up a character with a few core choices that would be classically considered "poor choices" (a wizard with a sword and shield, for example, or perhaps a rogue who's afraid of the dark, or a barbarian who hates hurting people) and then build that character as well as I can and succeed despite her quirks.


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Ross Byers wrote:

We need more Gods whose temples are more than temples. Abadar does banks and courthouses. Calistra brothels. Cayden does bars. To a lesser degree, Torag does forges (and he and Cayden probably share breweries and distilleries.) Asmodeus also does courthouses.

I bet any urban gathering of Milani-worshipers include an underground printing press, an avant-garde theatre group's place of performance, and a hidden away room for weapons training.


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And Shelyn might have museums and/or concert halls in her temples.


Physically Unfeasible wrote:
Are you suggesting the Starstone only grants Godhood to un-optimized builds?

I would love Golarion so hard if that were true....


I always suspected that Aroden was just a full blown wizard, and now I have a better idea...

Wizard 20, Mythic Tier 10 (Champion), with mythic feats abounding, somehow merging his arcane skill with that of his preference for sword-and-board (early idea for magus?). Of course, being a total badass, his raising the starstone, which is basically the ultimate macguffin, elevated him with a massive surge of divinity. Since we only have stats for gods are, I believe, Achaekek, we can therefore surmise that his god-like abilities seemingly complemented his outlook and skills, so he'd probably have at-will Gate powers, at-will Disguise Self spells, crazy bonuses to attack and damage, etc, etc.

So yeah, one could theoretically stat him out, but he's a god, and dead to boot (maybe?) so yeah, why do it anyway?


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Seth Parsons wrote:
So yeah, one could theoretically stat him out, but he's a god, and dead to boot (maybe?) so yeah, why do it anyway?

Because...


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James Jacobs wrote:
[Wonderful character ideas]

Tangential to concepts that go directly against the grain, I am now put in mind of a Magus I saw, in a Drow-heavy campaign, who rolled a will save (DC20 I think) every time he encountered a female with 15 or more Charisma.

It was perhaps the most amusing way I'd ever seen a party set back without GM interference.
Though for the Rogue with scotophobia, it's possibly a statement on the Rogue's possible range of versatility that I can see it being absolutely crippling (for the party scout) to an inconvenience (as a heavy fighter).

Calybos1 wrote:
Physically Unfeasible wrote:
Are you suggesting the Starstone only grants Godhood to un-optimized builds?

I would love Golarion so hard if that were true....

To be honest - whilst it'd be a silly thing to stipulate (hence the original joke); I actually found it a little bit more enriching to see Cayden, Iomedae and Norgerber fit classic archetypes of what they were in life as opposed to something that would win a DPR Olympics thread.

Kajehase wrote:
And Shelyn might have museums and/or concert halls in her temples.

...And Pharasmara, morgues? Temples for Gorum don't exist, however, everyone went out to fight.


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Physically Unfeasible wrote:

[stuff I am not responding to]

Kajehase wrote:
And Shelyn might have museums and/or concert halls in her temples.
...And Pharasmara, morgues? Temples for Gorum don't exist, however, everyone went out to fight.

Per Death's Heretic, Pharasmin temples often function as morgues in their local area. Perhaps some fighting schools also have a small shrine to Gorum/Irori/Iomedae (depending on technique and outlook, obviously) somewhere?

Makamu

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Good call on Shelyn and Pharasma.


James Jacobs wrote:
LazarX wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
lordzack wrote:
The question I have is, was he still a wizard after he became a god? Do such things even matter for deities? What about deities who were never mortal, do any of them have class levels?

We don't have rules for full deities.

As for demigods, we CAN stat them up... but we can change things as well as we need.

If you ABSOLUTELY WANTED to stat up Aroden... I would suggest doing so by giving him 20 wizard levels, 10 champion tiers, and a stack of unique powers and the like. Use those unique powers to shore up any "unoptomized" stains on his character sheet.

You don't see him as a dual pathed Champion/Archmage?
That could work too... but I must admit, I do enjoy the challenge of statting up a character with a few core choices that would be classically considered "poor choices" (a wizard with a sword and shield, for example, or perhaps a rogue who's afraid of the dark, or a barbarian who hates hurting people) and then build that character as well as I can and succeed despite her quirks.

... so what you're saying is that pretty much all of our Mythic characters in Wrath of the Righteous are going to become gods? :D

(It was a joke! We're horribly unoptimized! Also, I'm a player! No spoilers!)

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4

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Ross Byers wrote:
Good call on Shelyn and Pharasma.

Reaper of Reputations Norgorber churches as libraries. Books within containing seemingly innocuous texts that are actually ciphers for his holy work and other apocrypha.


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Gardens for Gozreh

Desnan standing stones/observatory/travelers leanto

Erastil hunting lodge and MANLY MANS primal scream retreat.

Gorum mash pit? Gladiator arena.

Iomedae: doesn't mix business with holyness

Abadar

Irori Everybody's kung fu fighting Dojo

Lamashtu what happens there would blind a calistrian.

Nethys- Library. Construction and demolition.

Norgorber: Its a cheese store. Really.

Pharasma: mortician/undertaker/midwifery. Apparently an accolyte is in charge of the "Welcome to Sandport population: " sign.

Rovagug- slaughter house

Sarenrae monster orphanage.

Shelyn music school

Torag forge

Urgathoa what happens here blinds the lamashtites.


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Urgathoa - All you can eat buffet restaurant.

Dark Archive

[church-as-business tangent]
Other Norgorber church-affiliated businesses include underground fight clubs that have gambling on fights to the death and the medieval equivalent of 'bum-fights' using slaves and kidnapped street people that the patrons can pay to fight and kill in the arena (Skinsaw cult), alchemist / herbary / poisoners shops (Blackfingers) and thieves guilds (the Gray Mous... er, Master).
[/church-as-business tangent]

As for Aroden, Golarion's history is bursting at the seams with single class wizards. Boring!

Instead, maybe;

Razmir's a Sorcerer.

Arazni was either a wizard (if I want a wizard - fighter / cavalier / paladin / ranger Knights of Ozem group) or a cleric (if I want the canon Knights of Ozem who have nothing to do with worshipping a wizard-goddess).

Aroden was also a cleric. (Of who? Someone who had favored weapon - longsword, that much is likely. And, once he was a god, he no longer needed to be a cleric of someone else, and, given that at least two Azlanti gods died when the Starstone fell (moon goddess / magic god), it's possible that his original god(dess) died anyway.)

Not *everybody* needs to be a wizard.


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So Aroden is a cleric of a time displaced himself , worshiping himself with his favored weapon which became his favored weapon because thats what he used when he worshiped himself because... in a stable time loop?

Would explain where he went...

Dark Archive

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

So Aroden is a cleric of a time displaced himself , worshiping himself with his favored weapon which became his favored weapon because thats what he used when he worshiped himself because... in a stable time loop?

Would explain where he went...

Met himself and exploded in a puff of logic, like matter meeting anti-matter!

The ripples of paradox from that meeting got pushed through space and time and were responsible for the Tunguska Blast, here on Earth.

His vestige has the favored weapon of 'tiny statue of myself holding a tiny statue of myself holding a tiny statue of myself holding a...'

Grand Lodge

Seth Parsons wrote:

I always suspected that Aroden was just a full blown wizard, and now I have a better idea...

I love it when someone says "X" was "just" a full-blown wizard. He only had the power to make reality snap to his fingertips and a quick incantation.:)

Poor man.

Liberty's Edge

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Aroden as a sword and board wizard makes history all the more awesome.


Ross Byers wrote:
zergtitan wrote:
argument on the subject of government
I have to assume this is a euphemism.

Well it was for one of them.

...
...
... if you know what I'm sayin'.

EDIT: DANG it, Ross! Now I can't stop seeing it!

That phrase works for, like, everything! It's like a fortune cookie!:

Zahariel wrote:
Aroden as a sword and board wizard makes history all the more awesome.

... if you know what I'm sayin'.

Seth Parsons wrote:
I always suspected that Aroden was just a full blown wizard, and now I have a better idea...

... if you know what I'm sayin'.

LazarX wrote:

I love it when someone says "X" was "just" a full-blown wizard. He only had the power to make reality snap to his fingertips and a quick incantation.:)

Poor man.

... if you know what I'm sayin'.

Kajehase wrote:
Urgathoa - All you can eat buffet restaurant.

... if you know what I'm sayin'.

Ross Byers wrote:
Good call on Shelyn and Pharasma.

... if you know what I'm sayin'.

Ross Byers wrote:
We need more Gods whose temples are more than temples.

... if you know what I'm sayin'.

Ross Byers wrote:
Abadar does banks and courthouses.

... if you know what I'm sayin'.

Ross Byers wrote:
Cayden does bars.

... if you know what I'm sayin'.

Ross Byers wrote:
To a lesser degree, Torag does forges (and he and Cayden probably share breweries and distilleries.)

... if you know what I'm sayin'.

Ross Byers wrote:
Asmodeus also does courthouses.

... if you know what I'm sayin'.

Ross Byers wrote:
Calistra brothels.

... if you know what I'-... no, wait, that one's pretty straight forward.

Warning. You won't read this thread the same way if you click the spoiler!


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Maybe Aroden inspired the concept of the magus & EK.

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