Is the Summoner class the best summoner? What about for CRB classes only? Druid with a Shaman totem archetype or straight Wizard?
Nope, the Master Summoner is the best summoner. He's quite masterful at it.
CRB only? Wizard.
CRB classes and APG/UM/UC feats / archetypes? Possibly Evangelist cleric focusing on summons. Possibly Lion Shaman.
Sweet, ok, thanks. :) There are so many aspects to pathfinder that I still have to take in. SO many different races, classes, and combinations therein.
One thing is for sure, Druids are pretty terrible summoners. The SNA list is just so blatantly inferior to SM... And while being able to spont. cast them is nice, it doesn't make them any better as summoners. That's more of a, "this spell I prepared looks like it's going to go to waste; may as well summon something instead." A consolation prize.
(Master) Summoner is possibly the best summoner, it really depends on the level range and game parameters. A level 15+ (or 11+ w/ robes of arcane heritage) Abyssal bloodline sorcerer with Superior Summoning can potentially be the best summoner just on sheer volume. The Summoner class is at least close to the best at it at all character levels and situations, at least. It would be the best choice if that is what you wanted to focus on.
1: Master Summoner.
2: Regular Summoner.
Contenders:
Cleric (standard action , summoning with Sacred Summons from level 5 onwards).
Lion/Eagle Shaman Druid (Standard action summons, bonus temp hp).
Wizard actually brings very little to the table in terms of summoning, compared to a Cleric.
Level 11+ Abyssal Sorcerer might take the prize.
At low levels, priests of Asmodeus might win, by being able to summon Hell Hounds with SM II.
I would say 1-19 Summoner is the best Summoner. At 20 its a Conjuration Wizard hands down. As Artanthos pointed out. They can make any summons permanent(One at a time though). Thats crazy powerful. But considering most games never even reach 20, the summoner is your safe bet. If all you consider is summons.
The teleportation ability is nice too. I wish they had an eldritch heritage feat chain for Wizard schools like they had for Sorc bloodlines. It would be an automatic feat choice for Summoners I suppose so maybe its too powerful.
Let me just deconstruct this to illustrate how good master summoners are at summoning.
The summoner gets a daily alotment of the best Summon Monster level available to any class of the same level (or Gate if he is level 19+), equal to 3+his CHA modifier. Not like for example the druid or wizard who can cast their highest level summon spells maybe 2 or 3 times and for the rest of the day are stuck with lower level summons.
In addition to that the Summoner's Summon Monsters only take a standard action to summon and their creature remains for 1 minute (for the record: that's 10 rounds) per level. While a regular casting of summon monster takes 1 round, which is not a full round action, but means you begin casting at the beginning of your turn this round, and the summoned creature appears on the beginning of your turn next round. So not only one round later, but every enemy in range has the chance to interrupt your spell with some damage. And THEN it only lasts for one round per level.
Except for druids all other classes have to either learn or prepare summon spells, so they are limited by this as well. For spontaneous casters this means giving up one of their known spells for a spell that will eventually become obsolete (because the creature it summons, is just not pwerful enough anymore), while for prepared casters it means sharing their spell slots between summons and other spells, while the summoner can ust fire away indiscriminately.
The only advantage of other classes' summoning spells is that they are not limited to one summon at a time, but a summoner can also cast summon monster as a spell from his spell list, if he so desires, to make up or that.
Now we have the master summoner who adds to all the goodies that the summoner gets the following:
2 extra uses of his summon monster ability per day, the ability to have his eidolon summoned while maintaining one summon and the option to have as many summons as he can cast active at the same time, when his eidolon is not summoned.
And finally he gets augment summoning at level 2 as a bonus feat without needing the (quite frankly useless) spell focus requirement, which adds +4 STR and CON to all his summons.
@ Threeshades - While the Master Summoner is more powerful. I always enjoy the Summoner more in actual play. Having a full strength Eidolon is pretty powerful in its own right... and being limited to one summons at a time when your Eidolon is dismissed (none when he is out) is far more balanced imo.
Master Summoner can bog down a game quick if the player doesn't prepare beforehand and have everything on notecards or such.
One thing is for sure, Druids are pretty terrible summoners. The SNA list is just so blatantly inferior to SM... And while being able to spont. cast them is nice, it doesn't make them any better as summoners.
I wouldn't say they are terrible. Is SM superior to SNA... sure. But SNA isn't terrible. Its still a nice list. Add in the feats you can take and spontanous casting and its pretty nice. Thats on top of the fact they have all the other druid tricks. Wildshape, Animal Companion, Full Caster, Armored casting, ect. I would say they make a decent Summoner. If you dont focus simply on summoning they are even better.
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What makes a summon good is what it can do. Summoners are powerful because of the range of critters they can pull out is nice and broad. But speciality summons from clerics and druids can open up options you normally couldn't get.
Ice Elementals are NASTY in the right hands. Good use of buffs help too.
It's not how many you can get out there. But how useful and flexible the critter is.
Ex. I could drop a group of Bears or a Celestial Rhino which acts like a mega Str Paladin in a fight with a crazy good charge. Which do you think I'll drop vs undead?
So, what does the feat progression look like?
Spell Focus (conjuration)
Augmented Summoning
Superior Summoning
Summon Good Monster
Sacred Summons
Which order for, say, a cleric? Level 7 is pretty far into most campaigns, and that's just for a human. Can you do without any of them?
If you shelf you Ediolon and pick up feats to buff your summons? He's the fastest mid range summoner. Best? Best is the Summoner who can buff his summons once they are out. Clerics tend to be that.
Th summoner spell list has plenty of buffs. That's the core mechanic of the entire class, get your summon/eidolon out and buff it.
@ Threeshades - While the Master Summoner is more powerful. I always enjoy the Summoner more in actual play. Having a full strength Eidolon is pretty powerful in its own right... and being limited to one summons at a time when your Eidolon is dismissed (none when he is out) is far more balanced imo.
Master Summoner can bog down a game quick if the player doesn't prepare beforehand and have everything on notecards or such.
My personal preference is the regular summoner as well, because the eidolon is what I love so much about the class, but when it comes to summoning power, the master summoner is just better.
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So, what does the feat progression look like?
Spell Focus (conjuration)
Augmented Summoning
Superior Summoning
Summon Good Monster
Sacred SummonsWhich order for, say, a cleric? Level 7 is pretty far into most campaigns, and that's just for a human. Can you do without any of them?
Good question. Most Clerics can go with Spell Focus and maybe Augmented. But if you are running into enemy casters to banish your summons, etc. you might want to up the anty. Focus on enhancing durations of summons and giving them just enough of a bump in caster level to make them resist stuff. Then eyeball the stats on the summons and see which have the saves and attacks you need for the situation. Most of the really good summoners in my games have a hot list of top 5 summons they drop depending on need.
Beware Sacred/Good if you are running to folks that drop Smite Good. Consider neutral summons. OOOR look into the classic non-critable elementals. Each fills a need.
Superior Summoning isn't needed I suppose. they are all good though. Being a dedicated Summoner is pretty feat intensive. Summon Good Monster and Sacred Summons go hand in hand. Without Summon Good Monster you might or might not have creatures to summon that match your alignment. Spell Focus and Aug Summ are automatic choices.
Sacred summons doesn't require goodness. Sacred summons is what a LE cleric of Asmodeus uses to get his Hellhounds out as a standard action, as well as an Iomedaean to get Lantern Archons.
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If you shelf you Ediolon and pick up feats to buff your summons? He's the fastest mid range summoner. Best? Best is the Summoner who can buff his summons once they are out. Clerics tend to be that.Th summoner spell list has plenty of buffs. That's the core mechanic of the entire class, get your summon/eidolon out and buff it.
Yes, indeed. But notice they had to cook up Summoner typed buffs to fill the stuff they don't get that Clerics already had that works on themselves, party members, AND summons. Summoner Buffs I think only work on themselves and their summons. Not a game breaker but something to consider.
Sacred summons doesn't require goodness. Sacred summons is what a LE cleric of Asmodeus uses to get his Hellhounds out as a standard action, as well as an Iomedaean to get Lantern Archons.
Um what? I was assuming the question was for a player character. Most of which are good clerics...not clerics of Asmodeus lol. In which case Summon Good Monster adds alot of creatures that match his emination therefore giving him more creatures he can summon as a standard action.
Of course Summon Good Monster does nothing for you if your a LE Cleric. Thats kind of a no duh situation.
Thing is, I get the feeling that +2/3 damage per attack and 2*HD extra hp isn't all that impressive after a while. Sure, your celestial dire lion may get a +10 damage total per round, but still. Especially since SGM lets you summon tons of critters with Diehard, which gives them some extra staying power. For low levels, however, SF(c) and AS make a big difference. Superior Summoning is awesome for summoning somewhat weaker monsters, but how often do you want that? I haven't, obviously, played any summoning-focused character. Is there something to this, or is it b&+!~**s?
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Sacred summons doesn't require goodness. Sacred summons is what a LE cleric of Asmodeus uses to get his Hellhounds out as a standard action, as well as an Iomedaean to get Lantern Archons.
But doesn't it also tie it to your alignement. So if you are GOOD then you drop GOOD critters? At least the alignment of your god. This can be a drawback in some/but not all situations.
Don't get me wrong, faster summons of those types are seriously useful.
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Thing is, I get the feeling that +2/3 damage per attack and 2*HD extra hp isn't all that impressive after a while. Sure, your celestial dire lion may get a +10 damage total per round, but still. Especially since SGM lets you summon tons of critters with Diehard, which gives them some extra staying power. For low levels, however, SF(c) and AS make a big difference. Superior Summoning is awesome for summoning somewhat weaker monsters, but how often do you want that? I haven't, obviously, played any summoning-focused character. Is there something to this, or is it b@%*!&%s?
Depends. Some lower level critters have better self buffs/powers/movements you might want to hang around for a while longer. This is spotty at best once flying critters become standard. But Flying isn't always optimal.
It's basically playing Pathfinder Pokemon. What's super effective in the right environment?
Yes, indeed. But notice they had to cook up Summoner typed buffs to fill the stuff they don't get that Clerics already had that works on themselves, party members, AND summons. Summoner Buffs I think only work on themselves and their summons. Not a game breaker but something to consider.If you shelf you Ediolon and pick up feats to buff your summons? He's the fastest mid range summoner. Best? Best is the Summoner who can buff his summons once they are out. Clerics tend to be that.Th summoner spell list has plenty of buffs. That's the core mechanic of the entire class, get your summon/eidolon out and buff it.
That would be new to me. As far as i know their mage armors, hastes, bull's strengths, enlarge persons and so forth all work on other characters just as well. As a matter of fact a summoner is even more versatile, because he has all those regular buff spells from both the Sorc/wiz and Cleric/Oracle lists. Plus with his eidolon he can use spells that normally only affect the caster or can only be cast on humanoids on the eidolon.
Superior Summoning is awesome for summoning somewhat weaker monsters, but how often do you want that? I haven't, obviously, played any summoning-focused character. Is there something to this, or is it b@#~$*~s?
Its used quite a bit to summon one level down. If you look at the creature list some SM levels have "Go To" options that are effective even after you gain higher levels of SM. IF you use a higher level SM to get more then one its a win win. Also its nice to flood the field with meat shields now and then. Give your group a respite or time for them to regroup while the big bads waste time squishing your summons.
What it does is it checks your AURA. This means that a NG cleric of Desna has a CG aura. If she were to summon a Lillend azata, which has the Chaotic and Good subtypes, it would be as a standard action. A celestial dire tiger would not, since it has no alignment subtypes. Various CG fey do not have the subtypes either. Each alignment has 3-5 monsters of the proper alignment over the entire spell list. Add to this the extra monsters of various deities, and the SGM list, and that's it.
That would be new to me. As far as i know their mage armors, hastes, bull's strengths, enlarge persons and so forth all work on other characters just as well. As a matter of fact a summoner is even more versatile, because he has all those regular buff spells from both the Sorc/wiz and Cleric/Oracle lists. Plus with his eidolon he can use spells that normally only affect the caster or can only be cast on humanoids on the eidolon.The summoner spell list has plenty of buffs. That's the core mechanic of the entire class, get your summon/eidolon out and buff it.Yes, indeed. But notice they had to cook up Summoner typed buffs to fill the stuff they don't get that Clerics already had that works on themselves, party members, AND summons. Summoner Buffs I think only work on themselves and their summons. Not a game breaker but something to consider.
Their mage armor only works on their Eidolon. But I agree with the rest of what your getting at.
Also for the Sacred Summons Feat, there is a great guide that spells out what you can summon with it. The Guide is called: "Reach Cleric"
What it does is it checks your AURA. This means that a NG cleric of Desna has a CG aura. If she were to summon a Lillend azata, which has the Chaotic and Good subtypes, it would be as a standard action. A celestial dire tiger would not, since it has no alignment subtypes. Various CG fey do not have the subtypes either. Each alignment has 3-5 monsters of the proper alignment over the entire spell list. Add to this the extra monsters of various deities, and the SGM list, and that's it.
Thats our point. Summon Good Monster adds to that list. As long as you worship a Diety with matching alignment. Obviously that would do nothing for a LE cleric, but most characters worship good gods.
Their mage armor only works on their Eidolon.
I'm gonna need a reference here. This is new to me.
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That would be new to me. As far as i know their mage armors, hastes, bull's strengths, enlarge persons and so forth all work on other characters just as well. As a matter of fact a summoner is even more versatile, because he has all those regular buff spells from both the Sorc/wiz and Cleric/Oracle lists. Plus with his eidolon he can use spells that normally only affect the caster or can only be cast on humanoids on the eidolon.
(jumps to the PRD to check) Yes, Summoners are the best all-rounders out there. They have a wide range of useful buffs that mix in Wiz/Sorc and Cleric buffs. They also get a nice mix of general utility stuff.
That said, they REALLY shine with Evolution Surge which is Ediolon only. It's like having a hot swappable Wild Shape.
The buffs that Clerics get are the Holy ones. Holy Auras, Blesses, etc. Which if I'm right Summoners don't get, they trade those out for the Sor/Wiz options they get.
Mind you, Summoners getting some spells at a lower spell level is nice.
In the end I guess it's your taste in summons and what you prefer then. 6 one way/half dozen the other.
Thats our point. Summon Good Monster adds to that list. As long as you worship a Diety with matching alignment. Obviously that would do nothing for a LE cleric, but most characters worship good gods.
Not everything on that list adds to what Sacred summon can effect. I dont think it helps at all until you get Summon Monster III.
Their mage armor only works on their Eidolon.I'm gonna need a reference here. This is new to me.
My fault, Im thinking about shield. Personal buffs, that they can still cast on the Eidolon. Anyway, You forgot to quote how i still agreed with you =P
Thats our point. Summon Good Monster adds to that list. As long as you worship a Diety with matching alignment. Obviously that would do nothing for a LE cleric, but most characters worship good gods.Not everything on that list adds to what Sacred summon can effect. I dont think it helps at all until you get Summon Monster III.
Without Summon Good Monster or appropriate deity extra summons, yes. The Lemure is the first one, with SM3. Meaning, Sacred Summon isn't useful au naturelle until level 5.
You can also use Planar Binding, but that's risky.It's even riskier for Summoners, who don't have magic circle abjuration spells to fall back on, unless they UMD a scroll.
They do have access to Dimensional Anchor (SMVII -> Bone Devil,), and if they have the feat Summon Good Monster, they also have access to Magical Circle Against Evil (SMIX -> Couatl).
They are also both in their spell list.
Dimensional Anchor only means that your summon can't leave. It won't stop it from ripping you to shreds if things go south. And casting that spell will probably send things southward in a big hurry.They do have access to Dimensional Anchor (SMVII -> Bone Devil), and if they have the feat Summon Good Monster, they also have access to Magical Circle Against Evil (SMIX -> Couatl).You can also use Planar Binding, but that's risky.It's even riskier for Summoners, who don't have magic circle abjuration spells to fall back on, unless they UMD a scroll.
See my edit. Both spells are on their spell list.
A summoned creature can't use SLA's which require material components with a cost.
While true, I don't see how it is relevant?
