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I find myself in need of some help from the 3PP community in understanding a few of the mechanisms of the industry better, so I hope some of you will help me shed some light on this.
For about six months now, my buddy and I have been working on a series of products for Pathfinder. We have paid close attention to all the great advice here on the forum and tried to learn as much as possible.
Unfortunately, we have very limited access to sales figures etc. on which to base our own projections and therefore make reasonable budgets for our coming products. And herein lies the problem. Maybe my math is all screwed. Maybe I am just having the wrong expectations. But with the numbers in front of me, I can't see a way to even manage break even - even in the longer run?
Based on information from the forum, I have collected the following advice and information:
- Don't skip the art, good art will more than earn the cost back
- Expect quality art to cost $50 from sources such as DeviantArt
- A rule of the thumb says 1 art piece per 3 pages in short products, per 5 pages in longer products
- If you sell 200 copies of something, it is a hit. Expect a lot less for most products
- Expect to have to build your brand, success and sales over time (naturally)
So, I did a quick calculation of a 30-page product with 6 pieces of art and a nice cover piece (worth two normal pieces). That's $400. Add to that $80 to pay off on a license for CreativeCloud. My own time is not added. It is still $480.
With a product price of $5, Blood Brethren Games earns approx. $3 per sold copy, times e.g. 150 copies, that is still only $450!?
So, I'd really like to ask the experienced Third Party Publishers how this all adds up. I expect to have to earn loyal fans and customers and most likely have a negative income on the products for a while, but with these numbers I find it really hard to see how - even down the line - a product can break even or turn a small profit?
Where am I wrong? Is the art too expensive? Is the product too cheap? Are the sales estimates too modest?
I'd love to hear how entering into this business was for some of you guys and any input you might have on how to go about price setting, establishing the first 5-10 products and the company brand/fan base as such.
Any feedback is much appreciated! :-)
Thank you,
Jesper
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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Pricing is tough, because whatever you ask as a brand-new company is going to seem like too much to some people. At 30 pages, your price probably is too low. My Business Director, Rachel Ventura, has opined to me about what she feels like is a destructive "race to the bottom" in the 3PP world on price. You have to face up to the fact that you're a boutique publisher, not a supermarket or a Wal-Mart. On the one hand, people expect you to charge less than Paizo because you're not "official." On the other hand, you've run the numbers, and the numbers say you're screwed if you undercut them by that much. Consider that a 32-page Paizo PDF goes for 8.99. At $5 for 30 pages, you're already discounting by almost half. That's probably too much.
You have a couple of choices:
1. Simplify your product. Less art, less frills, shorter page count. Count on the crunch and flavor and concept to sell it. This cuts your cost down quite a bit and improves your margin. This is also risky, because people might start to think of you as a rinky-dink outfit not worth their time rather than serious and creative professionals.
2. Raise your price. This improves your margin per unit sold, but it is risky, as too high a price point and people won't bother, especially with a new company. This leaves you a heavier burden to push the product and show people why they REALLY REALLY WANT IT!!!
3. Go "dumpster-diving" for artists. You can sometimes find talented artists that just haven't been discovered yet. They may be willing to work for peanuts. You run the risk of getting unreliable turnover, both in timing and quality, but if it works you can save big.
4. Try to sell contributors on accepting royalty payments rather than a lump sum. This buffers you against financial risk; you're not going big out of pocket, and everybody wins if the product's a hit and everybody loses if it tanks. This is risky with established artists, who may charge more or just tell you no thanks if you're not willing to pay them up front.
In sum, there's not an easy answer to your question. Each path can work, but each path also has risks. You're not going to find an ideal option that solves all your problems. The best you can hope for is to decide which risk you want to take and what company you want to be and go with the strategy that fits your vision.
Hope that helps.
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Your math isn't screwed up.
A 30-page product for about $5 isn't a bad price range, and 6 pieces of art plus a cover isn't a bad goal to set.
But I know that for Dreamscarred Press, we started:
A) Using B&W art until we started gauging how well products sold
B) Using stock art until we had a decent budget and could afford custom art
There's something to be said for having solid, custom artwork, but if you don't have some sort of in with an artist, you're going to be spending tons of money on artwork and you might not recoup it.
My advice? Either get an artist as part of your company or just have a custom piece of nice color art for the cover, and then try to use stock art for the interior - or go with custom B&W art for the interior. You've just cut your art budget in half (or better). Also, for the cover, consider something like I've seen quite a few other publishers do - have a single custom full-color character illustration set on an otherwise generic background that may or may not be stock art and reuse that art in the book. Now you haven't had to spend 2 pieces of art for the cover.
As an example:
Cover: Stock art, cost $5 + single full-color character, cost $50-100
Interior: 5 pieces of B&W art, cost ~$125 or 5 pieces of stock art, cost ~$25, plus the figure from the cover, cost $0
Total Cost: $80-$230 depending on which route you want to go.
If the product does well and you think it's worth the cost and time, upgrade the art.
Just my opinion, especially as you're just getting started. :)
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We are generally $15-$20 per piece on artwork.
That means a lot of what we get is black and white artwork.
A typical 25-30 page "splat" book runs us $40-$50 in total.
Some of our larger projects have a $40-$60 per piece (We have one at the moment that has like a $400+ art budget).
You've gotta be creative some times. A lot of it is finding the artist who is willing to work with you on your budget. Don't try to fit your budget to an artist. We've had a lot of success contacting foreign artists who are AMAZING (check out the artwork in Law & Order if you want to see what I'm talking about).
If you are feeling pressured for your budget, drivethru has a great
stock art section in it's publisher resource section. Purple Duck Games has released a lot of their artwork and the price is very reasonable. If you need an extra piece or something- it's a good way to go for a product.
So this is my dirtiest secret: "Just Ask"
If I'm looking for inspiration on devintart and I see a piece that I am just like, "Oh man, that is AWESOME. It is exactly what I am looking for!" I just go ahead and ask them. Like point blank. I just shoot them a note or an email and lay it all out for them. I say I work for a 3pp and I'd love to showcase their artwork in an upcoming product. I tell them I'm on a budget and I really can't pay (or pay much) and as if it would be possible to use their piece. It works every now and again. When it doesn't, nothing lost. I've complimented their artwork and probably end up sharing it on my personal social network pages. If they go for it- I scream it from the rooftops. I let everyone I can know how awesome they are. I link to them no only on the LRGG page but my own and often times in the PDF itself.
Same goes with a LOT of things (that's how I got the compatibility license, the contract with OBS, etc). Just Ask.
And our price per page is generally something like:
LRGG Page/Price
0 to 10= $2
11 to 15= $3
16 to 20= $4
21 to 30= $5
30 to 40= $7
40 to 50= $8
50 to 60= $9
60 to 75= $10
However, we tend to work with a lot of in-house folks who work off % royalty. For example, we have 3 artists on staff as well as all of our editors/designers.
Smaller projects don't net as much as larger ones, but you have to have an established base. Product lines also sell better than stand alone products.
We never had a negative return on a product. Start small and make bigger and bigger products. The returns will get bigger and bigger as well. It's not an easy gig and you crawl more often than you run. You need a REALLY tight ship and the more you do this the more you'll learn ways to save money without compromising quality.
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My Business Director, Rachel Ventura, has opined to me about what she feels like is a destructive "race to the bottom" in the 3PP world on price. You have to face up to the fact that you're a boutique publisher, not a supermarket or a Wal-Mart.
Yay for Rachel. The 3PP world needs more people like her, IMO.
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I find myself in need of some help from the 3PP community in understanding a few of the mechanisms of the industry better, so I hope some of you will help me shed some light on this.
OK I will rip this apart piece by piece and get you on the right path.
For about six months now, my buddy and I have been working on a series of products for Pathfinder. We have paid close attention to all the great advice here on the forum and tried to learn as much as possible.
Unfortunately, we have very limited access to sales figures etc. on which to base our own projections and therefore make reasonable budgets for our coming products. And herein lies the problem. Maybe my math is all screwed. Maybe I am just having the wrong expectations. But with the numbers in front of me, I can't see a way to even manage break even - even in the longer run?
You should expect to sell 25 copies your first time out from a new 3PP. @5 is reasonable.
Based on information from the forum, I have collected the following advice and information:
- Don't skip the art, good art will more than earn the cost back
Yes.
- Expect quality art to cost $50 from sources such as DeviantArt
More like at least $75 realistically if you want quality.
- A rule of the thumb says 1 art piece per 3 pages in short products, per 5 pages in longer products
One piece of art per for pages OR you can use a graphic element like a color background to even push to 1 per six pages. But the art must be AMAZING at that point.
- If you sell 200 copies of something, it is a hit. Expect a lot less for most products
Expect 25 copies. Over estimating can kill your company. Shoot low, succeed high.
- Expect to have to build your brand, success and sales over time (naturally)
Unless you work for Paizo OR you have hired Paizo freelances expect that to take YEARS. Not months, Years.
So, I did a quick calculation of a 30-page product with 6 pieces of art and a nice cover piece (worth two normal pieces). That's $400. Add to that $80 to pay off on a license for CreativeCloud. My own time is not added. It is still $480.
Why are you buying original art? This is your first 3PP, you should be buy stock art for $6 to 10 for several pieces for the first year of business. That will cut that $400 to $20.
With a product price of $5, Blood Brethren Games earns approx. $3 per sold copy, times e.g. 150 copies, that is still only $450!?
OK your math is wrong. On $5 you will make between $3.25 (At OBS) to $3.75 (at Paizo) each with an average of $3.50. If you use stock art the product cost is $100. Now you only need to sell 29 to break even.
So, I'd really like to ask the experienced Third Party Publishers how this all adds up. I expect to have to earn loyal fans and customers and most likely have a negative income on the products for a while, but with these numbers I find it really hard to see how - even down the line - a product can break even or turn a small profit?
Stop spending money you don't have to spend and think ways to be profitable.
- Expect to have to build your brand, success and sales over time (naturally)Unless you work for Paizo OR you have hired Paizo freelances expect that to take YEARS. Not months, Years.
Even if you *do* hire Known Names, my number one piece of advice is to Release Consistently. Steady releases will build up a back stock of products, and every time you release something new, you will have the chance to get a new customer that has never seen your products, and go "Hey, I like 'Magical Muffins of Mirth and Malevolence', what else do these guys have?" Set a schedule of releases, keep to it (as best you can, adjust for the Scotty Principle and cat herding), but release consistently. Interact with the community through social media and forums. :)
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Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games
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Everyone here is right. :P
First, determine if you even need art. Can you do some sort of design element for your cover, instead of art? Make it memorable, and it may save you money both now, and later.
If you absolutely need art, does it have to be in color?
If it does, can you use stock art? Super Genius uses a LOT of stock art. We buy a lot of it from LMPjr. He has good collections with multiple images. Other folks do. Find one that gives you all you need for this project. If possible, have it be enough for the next project too.
If you want to build a brand, a 30-page first project may be more than you want to start with. Can you do a few free 1-2 page pdfs for little or nothing? (Either with no art, or with stock art you buy for the "real" product). That gets the name out, and gives you a chance of learning something about the process. Yes it's more work. It may be worth it.
And then, there's always Kickstarter. If you need $480, you can do a KS for $1500 and see if there's enough interest to justify the book.
I second that note about free products.
Our first product was a free 35 page doc. It was called our sample pack. It is still downloaded to this day :-)
On occasion we still drop small "Goblin Rations", though we typically do "Pay What You Want" if possible.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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We've done a few free products. If the option had been available when we released them, we might have done Pay What You Want instead. Either way, those products still get plenty of downloads every month, and they're a good way to build brand awareness and customer goodwill, as well as to help point to other products related to them. Every chance you get to put your product in front of eyes is a chance to take.
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my number one piece of advice is to Release Consistently.
This.
THIS.
SO MUCH THIS.
My company, Adamant Entertainment, came out of the gate as the first-available 3PP. Our first release, Tome of Secrets was released the first day that 3PP were permitted, and we were the only publisher who had compatible product available at the GenCon where Pathfinder debuted.
But we didn't keep striking while the iron was hot. Our releases were inconsistent. Too much time between releases, too many missed release dates, until today -- when we haven't released anything new in two years.
We completely squandered any momentum and advantage we had.
So yeah, definitely -- Release Consistently.
(and as for Adamant? Keep an eye out. We're coming back, soon.)
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Just note that you can find cheaper artists, and even in the States. But definitely do use some stock art! That will save you a great deal right there. It is definitely a business that you have to build up a consistent following with--except or the rare breakout PDF. I wouldn't suggest releasing anything until you have about 3 products lined up, so folks can see some momentum, and see that you are not a fire-and-forget company.
Misfit Studios is having to reestablish a name in the d20 market, as we didn't jump on board with producing for Pathfinder until recently, but we have a d20 background. We have spent the last few years on Savage Worlds and Mutants and Masterminds, but have several things lined up to release over the next few weeks. But that has pushed back my Super Genius material.
What Louis Porter Jr. and Owen said.
You want real sales number here you go
101 Mystical Site Qualities $5.99, 38 page PDF, (released march 2013)
Wrote the book myself, did the layout myself, promoted the book myself, I get 75% of net revenue (2.92 per copy at OBS,$3.36 per copy at paizo)
Editor gets a 25% net revenue for one year (0.97 center per copy at OBS,$1.12 per copy at paizo)
Art Cost: $0.00 used all public domain art.
1st 30 days sales
OBS Copies sold 42 net earnings $162.55
Paizo.com Copies Sold 22 net earnings $71.84
Sales to date 09/19/2013 (1:31 CST)
OBS Copies sold 101 Net earnings $341.63
Paizo.com Copies sold 48 Net earnings $188.64
If you have questions just ask.
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Wow, thanks guys! As usual, I am happy and surprised how open and helpful the 3PP community is! :-)
It seems we have put way too much emphasis on art in our preparation phase. I guess it comes from reading too many product reviews, where I got the impression that original art was "a must" and stock art sent a negative signal. Sort of related to what Jason is talking about; if you compete on price, you (maybe) don't trust the quality of your own product.
But I totally get what you guys are saying about "start small, think big", build your numbers, prove your staying-power etc. It is all really excellent advice, thank you!
If the art is good, I don't care if it is "stock" or not.
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Jesper, the heart of any good product is the content itself and what they can do with it. People know me for one little steampunk base class. I didn't pay a dime for the art and I honestly believe I used the same abstract filler art three or four times near the end of the document because I had had some text formatting issues and was just DONE with it.
I can't say whether or not using a black-and-white stock cover that took me an hour to design helped me or hurt me, but I really can't complain about the results. The bugger hit 200 sales this month.
Don't worry about custom art; the way the art industry links into more lucrative pots than our own means that the stuff is for the biggest players in our field and only them.
The way to get your stuff recognized is going to have to be a little different than eye candy. Find something people have tried to do and failed to do correctly, then do it correctly. Find holes in the core rules set forth by Paizo. Fill them. Note the lack of humor in core rulebooks since mid 2nd edition. Add the humor back in. It differentiates you.
You are small and you are agile, yet you are destitute. By trying to behave like Wizards or Paizo, you play a losing game. By trying to be like Frog God, Open Design, or SGG, you are still playing a losing game. They may be small, but you are smaller still. They have their stables, their obligations, their established voices. These slow them down. You have the speed of youth and the ability to turn on a dime if need be. This is your advantage.
Find that niche and produce something distinctive, but always remember that the 3pp industry is open and friendly. We're here for you and expect you don't fire on us if we want to walk on in and see what you've done with the place :)
P.S. When you've finished your glorious first flagship product, send it to Thilo at www.endzeitgeist.com. I swear at least 15% of my clientele has come from him. We both like insane experimentation, so we get along. YMMV.
Oh, heck, if your first product could use something, I'd be happy to help with a couple thousand words or so. Just get ahold of me!
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If the art is good, I don't care if it is "stock" or not.
This. So much this. From my own personal experience I and my friends buy 3PP material because they are doing something cool we want to use, not because they had the prettiest cover. Put out good quality material. It sells better than good quality art.
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This. So much this. From my own personal experience I and my friends buy 3PP material because they are doing something cool we want to use, not because they had the prettiest cover. Put out good quality material. It sells better than good quality art.
Good art sell books FASTER than quality writing because if the book doesn't look cool you are not going to get it. This has been proved time and time again in EVERY field of marketing from book to food to computers. Apple made their fortune on this concept. Quality is important but it takes more of an "investment" then just looking at the cover of a book. Once a company has proven their quality to you, you have that trust relationship and art no longer has that same effect. Why do you think they call it "Love at first sight", not "quality at first sight".
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This. So much this. From my own personal experience I and my friends buy 3PP material because they are doing something cool we want to use, not because they had the prettiest cover. Put out good quality material. It sells better than good quality art.Good art sell books FASTER than quality writing because if the book doesn't look cool you are not going to get it. This has been proved time and time again in EVERY field of marketing from book to food to computers. Apple made their fortune on this concept. Quality is important but it takes more of an "investment" then just looking at the cover of a book. Once a company has proven their quality to you, you have that trust relationship and art no longer has that same effect. Why do you think they call it "Love at first sight", not "quality at first sight".
I agree. When you are first starting out, of course good, quality original color art is going to be WAY out of reach. As others have said, that's OK. Go with little or no art or go with some good, quality stock art. Even after you have gained some footing as a new company, art will be a challenge to you budget.
Also, strive hard to have a clean, professional looking layout.
As you continue to grow, there will come a time when having top quality original art becomes very important if not critical. Nothing sells a product faster (or, at the very least, gets a product noticed faster) than an amazing cover. Of course, the content has to be equally good, but the reality is that fewer people will even give your product a chance if the cover does not jump out at them and catch their eye.
Publisher, Raging Swan Press
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I've never been sold on the need for any cover art whatsoever (particularly for PDFs). Not having cover art enables me to save money so I can charge less for the same product, which directly benefits the customer.
Cover art is all about the publisher's need (i.e. to sell the book) and not about the customer's need (how often do you sit at your computer and marvel at your pretty PDFs or how often does the cover art enable you to use the product better?)
Marc is correct that a clean, professional layout is really important - personally I hate clutter and mess on a page. In fact, I go so far as to say a simple layout is way better than a jazzy one (and is easier for a customer to print).
So, in conclusion: less is more (and better).
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I've never been sold on the need for any cover art whatsoever (particularly for PDFs). Not having cover art enables me to save money so I can charge less for the same product, which directly benefits the customer.
Cover art is all about the publisher's need (i.e. to sell the book) and not about the customer's need (how often do you sit at your computer and marvel at your pretty PDFs or how often does the cover art enable you to use the product better?)
Marc is correct that a clean, professional layout is really important - personally I hate clutter and mess on a page. In fact, I go so far as to say a simple layout is way better than a jazzy one (and is easier for a customer to print).
So, in conclusion: less is more (and better).
I would have to agree with this. And I can point out Rappan Athuk as an example. Yes, its been around for years, and was recently updated. But look at the cover. Red, or black. No art whatsoever on the cover.
What sells the book? Reputation.
What built the reputation? Content.
By Pathfinder standards, Rappan Athuk looks terrible. No full color art, no glossy pages, very few half-naked heroes fighting monsters.
Just a good (great?) dungeon crawl that will keep you occupied for years.
I also agree that when starting out, you need to grab peoples attention, but you need to do it with good content, not with "the art style of the month". Build your brand on being very good at what you do, not with how flashy you look.
Substance will always outlast style.
Check out Raging Swan Press or Minotaur Games for low art budget quality and successfull products. RSP also sell stock art. Kobold Press/Open Design often uses public domain historical art.
An intro freebie product or two is a great way for people to lead to k ow your new company and can lower the barrier of a reasonably priced follow up product later.
Also send a copy to Endzeitgeist and take his review to heart. Be not afraid to revise a product from the review esp. For the first few products.
For us, I think it was the Hero Lab support that I was able to do myself, otherwise it can be very expensive. But keep in mind we are not trying to make this into a profession, we are just wanted to get the ball rolling on a modern setting.
We had no experience or training in any part of what goes into making a pdf. So everything was "learn as you go" kind of thing. Art and layout was a big issue. First, we had a few friends try and make a few pieces, and it was ok, but not near enough for what is expected. We stayed away from "open domain" art because the rules can be a little tricky and we were just unsure. Eventually we found stock art, again each product's rules are different. I did some research on each product and e-mailed the owner to make sure it was cool to use. And it worked great and very inexpensive.
We have sold a good bit, but gave away much more and made everything open, (again we just wanted to get a basis for a modern setting started). But if you figure time spent on writing, layout, hero lab support, promoting (yet also a big one) and buying art, we are no where near close to making a profit. But that's cool with us because it is not our intent.
So short, it's a lot of work, but very little return in cash, but rewards in other areas.
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Check out Raging Swan Press or Minotaur Games for low art budget quality and successfull products. RSP also sell stock art. Kobold Press/Open Design often uses public domain historical art.
Rite Publishing also uses some nice (probably open domain) historical art too from time to time.
Creighton totally stole my idea ahead of time to go all minimalist on the cover art. I really wanted to go all oldskool Traveller with my stuff.... ;P I love the look of the RSP lines.
I agree that quality content of an RPG PDF/book is much more important than a cranking' cover, but there is something to be said for the wow fact of art - I just don't think it works like it might for a comic book.
Did I like the cover for the Genius Guide to Apeiron Staves? Hell yes!!! Did I buy it? No - because it isn't in my sphere of interest.
I really like Inkantions by Purple Duck games. Would I buy it based on the cover? No - I'm not a fan of the graphics or the font or the borders. I would buy it because of the excellent mechanical and flavor content. The four reviews of four or more stars don't hurt at all either.
An intro freebie product or two is a great way for people to lead to k ow your new company and can lower the barrier of a reasonably priced follow up product later.
Yes. Rite, Abandoned Arts, Super Genius - these guys spring to mind immediately as having done some great giveaways.... I actually got Inkantations (q.v.) on a giveaway promotion.
Also send a copy to Endzeitgeist and take his review to heart. Be not afraid to revise a product from the review esp. For the first few products.
Totally. End ripped open more than 20 misses on the Direlock, mostly minor, one major/playstyle thing, but gave it an extremely positive 3 star review. I took his (and another reviewer's) quibbles to heart and made more than 25 changes to the PDF AND then added a fourth archetype for good measure. The Direlock now has a "5 star plus seal of approval" from endzeitgeist. While the Direlock is a very niche and complicated Base Class with original art by me that may not be WAR, I'm very happy with it - and for a first release I couldn't be happier.
As the good folk of Interjection Games have said, I am also willing to help in what way I can.
One of the biggest things I find is working with small shops, like myself, is getting to know them. Talk with them, ask them if they are willing to take a look at your first product before you publish it to get some outside opinions. Maybe get some advice if they get a credit in the credits.
Maybe it's just a hippie in me, I like communicating with the individuals behind the 1 to 3 man shops.
Helping each other out, because we are in the same boat.
So if you ever do a print on demand or print, buy your own ISBN. Check print rates, just do not go with the first one you see.
People have mentioned stock art. Public domain if it is old enough, is a good idea. The creative commons you have to be careful on.
I found an artist at my local LGS and I loved his work. We negotiated and came to a fair price.
As far as profit. Do not expect big numbers. Just hope to break even.
Jesper if you need any help, I can try my best. Send me a PM and let me know.
fromoldbooks.org is a gold mine :)
I find myself in need of some help from the 3PP community in understanding a few of the mechanisms of the industry better, so I hope some of you will help me shed some light on this.
For about six months now, my buddy and I have been working on a series of products for Pathfinder. We have paid close attention to all the great advice here on the forum and tried to learn as much as possible.
Unfortunately, we have very limited access to sales figures etc. on which to base our own projections and therefore make reasonable budgets for our coming products. And herein lies the problem. Maybe my math is all screwed. Maybe I am just having the wrong expectations. But with the numbers in front of me, I can't see a way to even manage break even - even in the longer run?
Based on information from the forum, I have collected the following advice and information:
- Don't skip the art, good art will more than earn the cost back
- Expect quality art to cost $50 from sources such as DeviantArt
- A rule of the thumb says 1 art piece per 3 pages in short products, per 5 pages in longer products
- If you sell 200 copies of something, it is a hit. Expect a lot less for most products
- Expect to have to build your brand, success and sales over time (naturally)So, I did a quick calculation of a 30-page product with 6 pieces of art and a nice cover piece (worth two normal pieces). That's $400. Add to that $80 to pay off on a license for CreativeCloud. My own time is not added. It is still $480.
With a product price of $5, Blood Brethren Games earns approx. $3 per sold copy, times e.g. 150 copies, that is still only $450!?
So, I'd really like to ask the experienced Third Party Publishers how this all adds up. I expect to have to earn loyal fans and customers and most likely have a negative income on the products for a while, but with these numbers I find it really hard to see how - even down the line - a product can break even or turn a small profit?
Where am I wrong? Is the art too expensive? Is the...
There are very good quality artists that do charge less than $30 for an 8x10 piece many are just starting to get into the business many such as my self are willing to negotiate a cheaper price just to get our name out their. Try looking a redmonkey-da on deviant art like me there are others that want to break into the business, as for my works my pieces have been on a couple of Super Genius Products I've done and am doing a few pieces for Christina Stiles as well.
What I am getting at is good affordable artists are out there, look at LPJ as well he has some of the best art in the 3pp community and he will be the first to tell you he does not pay a mint on art.
While a physical product is good it is not necessary many of the names out there do mostly PDF and do just fine, PDF purchasers like myself are beginning to take up a lot of the gaming purchasers. I also have noticed a lot of the larger names balance large sized Pdfs/and Books with a lot of fast, smaller sized PDFs to get a good stream of PDFs out on the market. Don't let the selling power of 1-3 page PDFs for .99 cents fool you they can be pretty good sellers. I've bout a ton of the smaller PDFs .
What Louis Porter Jr. and Owen said.
You want real sales number here you go
101 Mystical Site Qualities $5.99, 38 page PDF, (released march 2013)
Wrote the book myself, did the layout myself, promoted the book myself, I get 75% of net revenue (2.92 per copy at OBS,$3.36 per copy at paizo)
Editor gets a 25% net revenue for one year (0.97 center per copy at OBS,$1.12 per copy at paizo)
Art Cost: $0.00 used all public domain art.
1st 30 days sales
OBS Copies sold 42 net earnings $162.55
Paizo.com Copies Sold 22 net earnings $71.84Sales to date 09/19/2013 (1:31 CST)
OBS Copies sold 101 Net earnings $341.63
Paizo.com Copies sold 48 Net earnings $188.64If you have questions just ask.
Those numbers seem about right.
I'll note that the first 30 days or so booms and then it trickles.A good way to increase that "trickle" is to get on d20PFSRD.com's store and have them put your book on a relevant page.
Anyone of publishers here had any dealing with Monstersbyemail site and can comment?
Anyone of publishers here had any dealing with Monstersbyemail site and can comment?
Not yet, but I'll let you know once I do. :)
Sales to date 09/19/2013 (1:31 CST)
OBS Copies sold 101 Net earnings $341.63
Paizo.com Copies sold 48 Net earnings $188.64If you have questions just ask.
Steve, on your info above, would you say that is about average for sales on all your books? Besides 1001 Spells, can you say what your bestselling numbers were?
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Steve, on your info above, would you say that is about average for sales on all your books? Besides 1001 Spells, can you say what your bestselling numbers were?
Sales to date 09/19/2013 (1:31 CST)
OBS Copies sold 101 Net earnings $341.63
Paizo.com Copies sold 48 Net earnings $188.64If you have questions just ask.
I will try to put something together, don't have time today.
Best selling from a publisher's point of view is not always numbers of copies sold but profit earned. Then there is compilations, 1001 spells is probably the best, but that is more because of the individual 101 spells books.
To me its not about the fist 30 days anymore its about the Evergreen products, the ones that keep selling month after month.
More later.
I will try to put something together, don't have time today.Best selling from a publisher's point of view is not always numbers of copies sold but profit earned. Then there is compilations, 1001 spells is probably the best, but that is more because of the individual 101 spells books.
To me its not about the fist 30 days anymore its about the Evergreen products, the ones that keep selling month after month.
More later.
Thanks, Steve. Your input is ALWAYS appreciated. ;)
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Again, thank you all - for your advice, your willingness to share information and for your offers of help!
I haven't been this excited in a long time to finally get the ball rolling! :-)
In the long run, it's not how much you'll make on an initial product release, rather building an inventory of 100 or more products (yes, it's going to take time to get all that released) where each product might get 3 sales a month. If you have a 100 products and are selling 3 of each product each month, now your publishing company is making money. You will (or should) always make the most for a given product in the first month of release, then it slows down to a crawl - the normal expected sales levels. Only by having many products to sell, do you have a chance to be a successful RPG publisher. So start now and spend a couple years building up your product inventory, reputation, and "staff" of freelancers. If you have the staying power and do create quality work you'll eventually be a success, but that will take time to accomplish.
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To me its not about the fist 30 days anymore its about the Evergreen products, the ones that keep selling month after month.
Something else people also need to realize is that the more products you have to sell, the better you will sell also. If you can sell 1 copy of each product you have each month, the money can become very impressive if you have 100, 200 or more products. Just something to think about when you a new and up and coming 3PP.
This thread is very interesting and informative. It's helped put some perspective on the sort of work I'm doing in my spare time.
The short of it is I'm doing a whole new game. I'm looking to fill 150 or so pages for everything needed to run the game, including a small bestiary and sample adventure. From the sounds of it, I may want to split this up and stagger some releases to help expand them, and put the "sample" versions out for free.
The truth is, I'm not certain I could even get 150 pages out of what I have so far, so building up will likely be necessary either way. Plus, a new game would be such a hard sell, and especially so if there's only one PDF available.
In the end, I'm not looking to make bunches of money, just make the game I've always wanted to play and put it out there for others to play, too.
Anyone of publishers here had any dealing with Monstersbyemail site and can comment?
Yep, everything was highly... abberant. If you want humanoids, it's not the service to use. If you want tentacles and psychobugs, pounce it. Personally, I didn't download a one of the big images. Saw no use with my style.
That being said, if I wanted to make some sort of adventure in the subterranean depths with an Eldritch abomination trying to get out, that one adventure will look as good as something SGG puts out and for less than the cost of buying stock art of that quality.
Anyone of publishers here had any dealing with Monstersbyemail site and can comment?Yep, everything was highly... abberant. If you want humanoids, it's not the service to use. If you want tentacles and psychobugs, pounce it. Personally, I didn't download a one of the big images. Saw no use with my style.
That being said, if I wanted to make some sort of adventure in the subterranean depths with an Eldritch abomination trying to get out, that one adventure will look as good as something SGG puts out and for less than the cost of buying stock art of that quality.
i used some in 101 Variant Monsters.
i used some in 101 Variant Monsters.Anyone of publishers here had any dealing with Monstersbyemail site and can comment?Yep, everything was highly... abberant. If you want humanoids, it's not the service to use. If you want tentacles and psychobugs, pounce it. Personally, I didn't download a one of the big images. Saw no use with my style.
That being said, if I wanted to make some sort of adventure in the subterranean depths with an Eldritch abomination trying to get out, that one adventure will look as good as something SGG puts out and for less than the cost of buying stock art of that quality.
"Variant" is a good word for the stuff. Note that the Adventure-a-Week contest is using a piece from the series on its contest page. You can get a good, representative look there.
Anyone of publishers here had any dealing with Monstersbyemail site and can comment?Yep, everything was highly... abberant. If you want humanoids, it's not the service to use. If you want tentacles and psychobugs, pounce it. Personally, I didn't download a one of the big images. Saw no use with my style.
That being said, if I wanted to make some sort of adventure in the subterranean depths with an Eldritch abomination trying to get out, that one adventure will look as good as something SGG puts out and for less than the cost of buying stock art of that quality.
Agreed. They are beautiful images, but they are far away from standard fantasy. I haven't used any ... yet.
I find myself in need of some help from the 3PP community in understanding a few of the mechanisms of the industry better, so I hope some of you will help me shed some light on this.
I just realized something when I re-read this original post, you don't mention what you are going to do to sell your products on the retailer level as printed products. I mean you are going to collect your smaller PDF into Print-On-Demand (POD) books right? If you are doing a 150 page book you should be doing a POD version at CreateSpace.com so you can generate MORE money by selling the actual book version right? Because if you do it correctly creating the POD version of your materials shouldn't take more time then a few minutes, right?
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I find myself in need of some help from the 3PP community in understanding a few of the mechanisms of the industry better, so I hope some of you will help me shed some light on this.I just realized something when I re-read this original post, you don't mention what you are going to do to sell your products on the retailer level as printed products. I mean you are going to collect your smaller PDF into Print-On-Demand (POD) books right? If you are doing a 150 page book you should be doing a POD version at CreateSpace.com so you can generate MORE money by selling the actual book version right? Because if you do it correctly creating the POD version of your materials shouldn't take more time then a few minutes, right?
O.O
I've only established myself here, at rpgnow.com, and on the SRD store (Curse your dyslexia-triggering website name, Reyst!). Go on. :P
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Agreed. They are beautiful images, but they are far away from standard fantasy. I haven't used any ... yet.Anyone of publishers here had any dealing with Monstersbyemail site and can comment?Yep, everything was highly... abberant. If you want humanoids, it's not the service to use. If you want tentacles and psychobugs, pounce it. Personally, I didn't download a one of the big images. Saw no use with my style.
That being said, if I wanted to make some sort of adventure in the subterranean depths with an Eldritch abomination trying to get out, that one adventure will look as good as something SGG puts out and for less than the cost of buying stock art of that quality.
Sounds like they'll be perfect for psionic critters :)
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I find myself in need of some help from the 3PP community in understanding a few of the mechanisms of the industry better, so I hope some of you will help me shed some light on this.I just realized something when I re-read this original post, you don't mention what you are going to do to sell your products on the retailer level as printed products. I mean you are going to collect your smaller PDF into Print-On-Demand (POD) books right? If you are doing a 150 page book you should be doing a POD version at CreateSpace.com so you can generate MORE money by selling the actual book version right? Because if you do it correctly creating the POD version of your materials shouldn't take more time then a few minutes, right?
Thanks LMPjr! I am not sure if you confused Swivl's post with my original post (he mentions a 150-page product) but you are absolutely right that a series of 5 30-page products that are all interconnected could indeed be released later as a full book. I think we just figured that if people had bought the pdf's as they were released, nobody would buy a full book afterwards (but maybe a bundle of pdfs).
But I get your point - new potential customers will discover the product following the release of the 5th pdf and they might go for the book product right away. A very good point indeed. We'll just have to find a way make the collected series available cheaply to those who were daring enough to get the pdfs first. :-)
But the wisdom of this thread seems to be "start small, then bigger", so I think our 5-part series is probably going to get postponed a few months until we have learned a little from some other minor releases we are also toying around with.
But thanks again for putting the book/complete volume idea in my head!! :-)
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101 New Skill Uses 19 pages.
I wrote it, editor got 25% of net revenue for one year.
Art cost was less than $50.00 as the art was a collection of public domain, stock art and the cover was a reused piece for another project that did not happen it cost me $30.00 at the time.
1st 30 days
OBS
PDF Copies Sold 73 Gross Sales $437.27 Net Revenue $284.23
Print+ PDF Copies Sold 13 Gross Sales $99.42 Net Revenue $42.52
Paizo
PDF Copies Sold 74 Gross Sales $443.26 Net Revenue $332.45
Print + PDF Copies Sold 7 Gross Sales $83.93 Net Revenue $41.97
Lifetime
OBS
PDF Copies Sold 232 Gross Sales $1,089.44 Net Revenue $718.42
Print + PDF Copies Sold 33 Gross Sales $265.24 Net Revenue $108.33
Paizo
Paizo's website just wants to time out on me I will try to get updated numbers later.
d20pfsrd.com
PDF Copies Sold 39 Net Revenue $186.89
Thanks, Steve!
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I find myself in need of some help from the 3PP community in understanding a few of the mechanisms of the industry better, so I hope some of you will help me shed some light on this.I just realized something when I re-read this original post, you don't mention what you are going to do to sell your products on the retailer level as printed products. I mean you are going to collect your smaller PDF into Print-On-Demand (POD) books right? If you are doing a 150 page book you should be doing a POD version at CreateSpace.com so you can generate MORE money by selling the actual book version right? Because if you do it correctly creating the POD version of your materials shouldn't take more time then a few minutes, right?Thanks LMPjr! I am not sure if you confused Swivl's post with my original post (he mentions a 150-page product) but you are absolutely right that a series of 5 30-page products that are all interconnected could indeed be released later as a full book. I think we just figured that if people had bought the pdf's as they were released, nobody would buy a full book afterwards (but maybe a bundle of pdfs).
But I get your point - new potential customers will discover the product following the release of the 5th pdf and they might go for the book product right away.
POD is a way to reach more customers without having to risk the cash involved in a print run that may not sell.
If you don't have a hard copy available somehow then I won't buy it, no matter what the content and no matter how well it is received. Who knows how many of us exist - but providing a POD option can only help (provided its not too much extra work for you).