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Swarm Subtype: ...
Swarm Traits: A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage.
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A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
1) A swarm take "half damage from slashing and piercing weapons" or "immune to all weapon damage".
The energy damage from flaming weapons isn't weapon damage (very simple test: it is affected by DR? No, so it is not weapon damage).Interesting corollary: if the swarm is evil a holy weapon extra damage do full damage (but see 2).
2) "A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate)".
That is more tricky, as there is not a clear definition of what is an "effect".
The weapon surely is a targeted attack. If we rule, based on that, that the energy damage affect only 1 target and so don't work against swarms, we have reduced the damage of splash weapon too.
The swarm trait say:
"A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells."
but the area part of the splash weapon damage is (generally) 1 hp.
As an example alchemist fire say: "A direct hit deals 1d6 points of fire damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of fire damage from the splash. On the round following a direct hit, the target takes an additional 1d6 points of damage."
Clearly 1 single target take the 1d6 hp of damage.
I would rule that the energy damage from weapons has some AoE value and do full damage against swarm, but the rules are unclear.
I would rule that energy damage from weapons can damage a swarm. DR doesn't apply to a weapon's energy damage, so immunity to weapon damage shouldn't either. I certainly wouldn't enforce the reading that suggests splash weapons can only do 1 splash damage to a swarm. That obviously isn't intended and would make swarms next to impossible for non-spellcasters to deal with.
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I certainly wouldn't enforce the reading that suggests splash weapons can only do 1 splash damage to a swarm.
Good, because swarm traits call it out specifically:
A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
As for the OP's question, as far as I know the rules are silent on the issue. All we have to go on is the immunity (or half damage) to all weapon attacks and single-target effects, versus the vulnerability to area/splash attacks. Those seem to be the only two categories the rules care about, so you have to determine whether a "+1d6 on a hit" ability is closer to weapon/single-target effects or to splash/area effects.
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For Fine or Diminutive, lets use flaming as an example:
Flaming: Upon command, a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire that deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit.
A successful hit would be meeting or exceeding the swarm's AC. Then you apply the damage - immune to weapon damage, but what about the extra fire damage? It seems to be magical damage rather than weapon damage, but the fire damage also seems to be an effect that targets one creature since it's from an attack roll.
And Flaming Burst can't apply because swarms are immune to critical hits.
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I certainly wouldn't enforce the reading that suggests splash weapons can only do 1 splash damage to a swarm.Good, because swarm traits call it out specifically:
A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
Jiggy, what is the value of 1*1.5 FRD?
Rounding: Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3.
Or you are arguing that the 1d6 of damage from an alchemist fire is not targeted?
The only question is if the damage from the alchemist fire or the flaming weapon are "effects" or not.
To give not spellcaster a chance to fight swarms I would rule that the primary damage from a splash weapon and the energy damage from a weapon will affect a a swarm, but, as written, there is a big difference from the RAI and the RAW effect of splash weapons.
For Fine or Diminutive, lets use flaming as an example:
Flaming: Upon command, a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire that deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit.
A successful hit would be meeting or exceeding the swarm's AC. Then you apply the damage - immune to weapon damage, but what about the extra fire damage? It seems to be magical damage rather than weapon damage, but the fire damage also seems to be an effect that targets one creature since it's from an attack roll.
And Flaming Burst can't apply because swarms are immune to critical hits.
Flaming burst (ad all other abilities that trigger on a critical hit, are triggered even if the target is immune to critical hits.
Magic Weapons and Critical Hits: Some weapon special abilities and some specific weapons have an extra effect on a critical hit. This special effect also functions against creatures not normally subject to critical hits. On a successful critical roll, apply the special effect, but do not multiply the weapon's regular damage.
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Jiggy, what is the value of 1*1.5 FRD?I certainly wouldn't enforce the reading that suggests splash weapons can only do 1 splash damage to a swarm.Good, because swarm traits call it out specifically:
A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
Keep in mind that when the rule was written, as far as I know the only splash weapons in existence all dealt 1 on the splash. If the intent was that only the splash would apply, then it was pretty silly of the designers to include them in the 1.5x damage rule.
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Keep in mind that when the rule was written, as far as I know the only splash weapons in existence all dealt 1 on the splash. If the intent was that only the splash would apply, then it was pretty silly of the designers to include them in the 1.5x damage rule.Jiggy, what is the value of 1*1.5 FRD?I certainly wouldn't enforce the reading that suggests splash weapons can only do 1 splash damage to a swarm.Good, because swarm traits call it out specifically:
A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
I agree, the problem is RAW against RAI.
As the OP pointed out, some GM in PFS keep strictly to RAW in this, not allowing the weapons energy damage to affect swarms as they feel that the energy damage is a effect targeting 1 creature .
I suppose the same GM would limit the damage of a splash weapon against swarms to the splash damage as the 1d6 is targeted damage.
I'd rule that a flaming weapon does 1pt like a torch does.
I would rule that any of the common energy weapons (acid, fire, cold, sonic, electric) would do at least as much as a torch, depending on any immunities in play.
I'd do this as much because by the time a PC has an energy effect on a weapon, swarms by themselves shouldn't make them pee their pants.
A torch only does damage to swarms if the GM interprets it that way. I would rule that torches and weapons with energy damage do damage to swarms in my games, but I could see why a GM wouldn't allow it. Expect table variation I guess.
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For Fine or Diminutive, lets use flaming as an example:
Flaming: Upon command, a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire that deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit.
A successful hit would be meeting or exceeding the swarm's AC. Then you apply the damage - immune to weapon damage, but what about the extra fire damage? It seems to be magical damage rather than weapon damage, but the fire damage also seems to be an effect that targets one creature since it's from an attack roll.
And Flaming Burst can't apply because swarms are immune to critical hits.
Flaming burst (and all other abilities that trigger on a critical hit) are triggered even if the target is immune to critical hits.
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Magic Weapons and Critical Hits: Some weapon special abilities and some specific weapons have an extra effect on a critical hit.
Hmm I did not know that. Though it still only affects one creature regardless of the name "burst" & flavor text "explodes" - there is no additional area effect or splash damage.
I envision it as sure, you can attack a swarm of tiny critters with weapons but you're only killing one at a time so the effect on the swarm as a whole is negligible. Using a magic weapon still deals all the damage to that one critter, as does a critter crit. It's like trying to clear the beach one grain of sand at a time.
honestly, and I'll be chastised for this if that is the case.
Swarm rules are BS, honestly.
Elemental damage isn't weapon damage.
Splash weapons do their full damage x1.5you can argue raw on either side, but that's how I run it.
I'm in full agreement with you and that is how I would run it. I would be prepared for tables where the GM doesn't rule that way however.
Now, I'm a little confused. When did elemental damage count as a splash weapon? I get that a lot of area affect spells and effects deal elemental damage, but just because your mace deals electrical damage, that electrical damage doesn't hit the guy next to it. And I also understand that elemental damage isn't "untyped" damage, like weapon damage, or falling damage. But there isn't a single instance where energy damage from weapon is automatically splash damage...that I am aware of.
I haven't read that if I hit some one with my frost brand that the guy next to my target got frozen. Even creatures like morlocks and ratfolk, who can fight in the same square, aren't damaged by your flaming sword. Even burst damage applies only to the target of your attack, and not his buddies.
Another way to look at his, if Frank the Fighter with a flaming flail hits a colossal blue dragon, he deals an extra d6 of fire damage but nothing to the dragon next to him. If he hits a house cat (size: tiny), he deals an extra d6 damage, but no damage to the other cat. So when he hits an ant (Fine size) shy should he damage the other ants in the area?
Now that I have said all of that, I tend to agree that torches and other energy damage item should be able to damage a swarm (anything that radiates damaging energy in an area larger than a fist, anyway), but not +50%. I've seen too many movies where a swarm just rolls over the guy with the torch and smothers it, or, in the case of a bat or rat swarm, agile enough to simply avoid it.
So, in the end, I agree the rules do not support energy weapons dealing damage to a swarms immune to weapon damage, strictly because they are energy weapons (if they had a special property that applied damage in a splash effect, or something similar, that's another story). I also think energy weapons should deal a little damage to swarms otherwise immune to weapon damage.
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The reason I rule it the way that I do is because I do not consider energy damage to be weapon damage, therefore swarms' immunity to weapon damage does not apply to a flaming weapon. Just like DR doesn't reduce the fire damage that a flaming weapon does either. It is strangely written and the rules don't definitively state one way or the other. I'd accept either way the GM decides to rule it.
Honestly, when it comes to things like alchemist fire and bombs, the only damage I would count would be splash. Why? Because the targeted damage comes from the flask or what have you exploding/igniting ON you. Kind of like a Explosive Rune. But a tiny or dimunitive swarm would be too small to break the vial on (have you ever tried throwing a glass at a bunch of bugs? Doesn't work very well)so the damage would occur when the flask hit the ground (i.e. "targeting the square", which does nothing but splash damage to all around)
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Honestly, when it comes to things like alchemist fire and bombs, the only damage I would count would be splash. Why? Because the targeted damage comes from the flask or what have you exploding/igniting ON you. Kind of like a Explosive Rune. But a tiny or dimunitive swarm would be too small to break the vial on (have you ever tried throwing a glass at a bunch of bugs? Doesn't work very well)so the damage would occur when the flask hit the ground (i.e. "targeting the square", which does nothing but splash damage to all around)
Let's rewind to when the swarm rules were published, before the alchemist existed. So the splash damage on every splash weapon in existence was 1.
So we splash a swarm for 1. Now when the swarm rules were being written, with the only possibly amount of splash damage being 1, you're proposing that the designers decided "Hey, we should make sure to eat up some of our word count to call out that 1 point of splash damage as being subject to the 1.5x AoE rule, even though that still ends up as 1 damage; it would definitely be a good use of word count to make a rule that literally does nothing".
I'm pretty sure the designers aren't that stupid, so I'm going to conclude that when they explicitly call out splash weapons as getting their damage multiplied by 1.5, they're talking about more than just the splash damage.
If a splash weapon's direct hit damage applies then why wouldn't energy damage from a weapon? The rules need to be consistent. If energy damage from weapons doesn't apply, then neither should the direct hit damage from a splash weapon. Obviously the latter ruling makes swarms next to impossible to deal with unless you have a blasty Sorcerer/Wizard in the party.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures
The weapon damage would be negated for sure, and you wouldn't apply +50% damage as it isn't an area of effect. But I would not consider energy damage from a weapon a spell or an effect that targets a specific number of creatures. The flaming property doesn't target anything and I wouldn't consider a weapon attack an effect(though it may produce an effect). I could see waving a flaming weapon around to kill a swarm of bees, or a weapon spraying acid off it or whatever. Even still, I am perfectly fine with it if a GM decides that this doesn't work. It is merely my interpretation and I would use it for my tables.
I sincerely hope that people don't start taking up the idea that splash weapons do 1 damage to swarms or I'm gonna have a lot of swarmbane clasps to buy.
Now, I'm a little confused. When did elemental damage count as a splash weapon?
In the 3.5E Monster Manual entry for swarms, there was a special clause for using torches, lanterns and flaming swords (etc.) as weapons. That clause didn't make it into Pathfinder, however, because it wasn't in the SRD.
Now, I'm a little confused. When did elemental damage count as a splash weapon?In the 3.5E Monster Manual entry for swarms, there was a special clause for using torches, lanterns and flaming swords (etc.) as weapons. That clause didn't make it into Pathfinder, however, because it wasn't in the SRD.
Actually it is in the SRD strangely enough.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htmAn oversight perhaps? They did leave out some things when writing Pathfinder. One example comes to mind about how poison on a weapon is consumed when it hits a target. That bit was completely left of Pathfinder originally and was errata'd in later. Until that happened though, some people were left wondering how many times they could hit with a poison before it was used.
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I have personally used, in campaigns and in PFS sessions, Alchemist Fire,
Acid and Alkali flasks to target a square that a swarm is in to do damage
to the swarm. The splash my GM's ruled is for all the adjoining squares.
And I usually affected players with the splash, but they didnt mind because I killed the swarms.
You don't get extra damage with a splash weapon when hitting multiple squares of a large or larger creature .
Jiggy, remember that the rule is "A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.". Splash weapons are used only as an example of what can affect an area, so it isn't a rule that affect only splash weapon.
Right, the targetted effect of Splash weapons (more damage than 1) is a ranged touch attack, equivalent to scorching ray, or even a flaming/etc weapon targetting normal AC (the rule don't give special status to touch AC vs normal AC). All those are 'targetted vs. specific creature'. Only the splash weapon splash damage is not targetting a specific creature.
Like Diego concedes, that's a pretty miserly rule if it doesn't apply to splash-weapon's targetted damage but only their splash (non-casters rely on those to deal with swarms), but sometimes the RAW just does suck and needs to be addressed. While the RAW is being addressed, it could also allow flaming/etc weapon qualities to work as well (since those allow martials to somewhat scale their effectiveness beyond basic splash weapons), there really is no basis for JUST allowing splash weapons' targetted damage to work but not flaming/etc weapons or scorching ray/etc.
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Now, I'm a little confused. When did elemental damage count as a splash weapon?In the 3.5E Monster Manual entry for swarms, there was a special clause for using torches, lanterns and flaming swords (etc.) as weapons. That clause didn't make it into Pathfinder, however, because it wasn't in the SRD.Actually it is in the SRD strangely enough.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htmAn oversight perhaps? They did leave out some things when writing Pathfinder. One example comes to mind about how poison on a weapon is consumed when it hits a target. That bit was completely left of Pathfinder originally and was errata'd in later. Until that happened though, some people were left wondering how many times they could hit with a poison before it was used.
Interesting!
Now, I'm a little confused. When did elemental damage count as a splash weapon?In the 3.5E Monster Manual entry for swarms, there was a special clause for using torches, lanterns and flaming swords (etc.) as weapons. That clause didn't make it into Pathfinder, however, because it wasn't in the SRD.Actually it is in the SRD strangely enough.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htmAn oversight perhaps? They did leave out some things when writing Pathfinder.
You're right, I'm misremembering. In 3.5, the information on how swarms work was split between the description of the Swarm subtype and the Swarm monster entry. Pathfinder eliminated the Swarm monster entry (by putting bat swarms under "Bat", spider swarms under "Spider", etc.), but probably forgot to merge those rules into the subtype description.
Or you could go with the old standby: "Everything we do is intentional, even the unintentional stuff!" ;-)
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I'm a fan of allowing torches and energy damage from weapons to hurt swarms. That's the way our group has always played. Hopefully Paizo just missed including the old 3.5 rules for this and can FAQ or errata it in.
Maybe they can also clarify that pouring oil over yourself, setting yourself on fire, and then running through the swarm won't cause any extra damage (we had a half-orc barbarian attempt this before)