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(A kitsune could totally blend in as a human, though.)
I do have a question about no one to train with. What would that mean, game-wise?
He could, for awhile, but not on a long term basis. He'd run into people with true seeing, for example, who'd know he wasn't human.
Training, generally, is how I hand-wave the fact that people multiclass willy nilly or gain super cool new abilities without using them, just one day bampf, you have it.
So, basically, there's not a huge amount of game wise crunch penalty (I'd ask the player to tell me what he's working on self-training from game to game, what he's building toward for the next level) so he'd have to incorporate that into his RP and take time in game to self-teach. Usually it doesn't come up unless someone's playing the fish out of water (Barbarian in a land with no barbarians, samurai in ye olden London town, etc).
Im usually pretty easygoing when it comes to races. I personally play humans mostly because its easier for me to relate and to get that emersion into the game.
As a GM I allow any Humanoid type race (Standard races, goblins, drow, teifling, ect), but usually dont let exotic creatures in. Stuff like that psionic four armed bug race (always requested in 3.5) is just to out there. It breaks emersion. You want to be a dark elf or a tiefling with a tail and horns... sure. Its humanish enough. But a 4 armed bug... I dont even know where to begin RPing how most towns are going to react (other than running and screaming). But those races are rare. I would say 90% of the races are good with me.
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You guys are still at it? I already had my fill of chaos for the week, but thanks for the snack.
Also, the race Dragonamedrake is speaking of is called the Thri-Kreen, and it was originally one of the races available in the Dark Sun campaign setting if I remember right. That setting also had Half-Giants, crossbreeds of human and dwarf (called the Mul) as well as some other monstrous races in a rather unforgiving environment. You cared more about how good people are at surviving in the wastelands of Athas than about how they looked in a mirror (if anyone even had one around), which helped with that whole "monstrous appearance" thing not being a bigger issue for the player characters.
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Thri-kreen were fun. But started in Forgotten Realms.
Really? I thought it was Dark Sun where they first appeared.
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Training, generally, is how I hand-wave the fact that people multiclass willy nilly or gain super cool new abilities without using them, just one day bampf, you have it.
So, basically, there's not a huge amount of game wise crunch penalty (I'd ask the player to tell me what he's working on self-training from game to game, what he's building toward for the next level) so he'd have to incorporate that into his RP and take time in game to self-teach. Usually it doesn't come up unless someone's playing the fish out of water (Barbarian in a land with no barbarians, samurai in ye olden London town, etc).
Not this again. Do you hold players that stay within a single class to the same restriction? Because sometimes classes get an ability at level X, that they couldn't possibly use at level (X-1). If a GM handwaves that situation, then there is no reason to not handwave a situation where a player takes a level in another class (especially in PF where they nerfed multiclassing). "You can't take a level in barbarian, you have been in a city the whole level. You have to spend time in the wilderness wiping your butt with tree bark." Which clearly indicates the GM doesn't understand the difference between the barbarian class and the barbarian culture, hint: they aren't necessarily the same.
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What I find interesting in this debate, still, is that if you allow every player to play whatever they like, so long as it's not unbalanced against the other PCs, and change everything about the campaign to fit better with what the players as a group want, then you are really only playing one specific type of campaign: A loosely defined setting that acts as a frame for action.
It is possible to have a campaign world that is flexible enough to accommodate players having a lot of choice in what they play without it being loosely defined. There do have to be parts of the world that aren't defined, but I'm really skeptical of anyone who claims that there are no "unfilled corners" in their setting. Look at Golarion. Except for Avistan and northern Garund, the continents are mostly loosely defined. There's some details that are fixed but very little. There's also unfilled corners underground, under the ocean, on other planes, planets, etc. Earth's surface is about 200 million square miles. If your setting takes place on a world roughly the same size as earth (or larger), that's a lot of details to fix!
The other thing you have to do to have your setting be flexible is to not define things to limit everything else. For example, you wouldn't want to say that all drow in your setting live in a CE matriarchal spider-worshiping society where everyone dresses for fanservice. Instead, you would say that this specific civilization of drow are CE matriarchal spider-worshipers who dress for fanservice. There could be other drow elsewhere in the world that aren't like that. For the elf extinction campaign, instead of the campaign being about why all elves everywhere in the world are dead, it could be about why a specific civilization of elves are extinct. In this campaign, someone could easily play an elf; they would be an elf from another place in the world.
This is the approach taken in the homebrew setting I DM/play in. It has worked out for us. I should also mention that the general preference in my group runs to more narrative-based games, rather than the combat-heavy, no-one-actually-cares-about-the-characters-or-world you seem to think is the only possibility for this kind of flexibility. (Another nice benefit of this is that it makes it easier for multiple people to DM in the setting. By leaving options open, you don't step on other DMs' toes. Say Alice really wanted to run a campaign focused around an order of elven druids. Because Bob didn't say all elves are extinct, just this one civilization, he doesn't have to worry about making Alice's game impossible.) There are places with established histories, relations, etc. but there's still room to accommodate new characters. The orcish nation of Tsang has this history and these relationships with the Blackfoot kobolds, the dwarven nation of Achaea, the planar port city of Whiteharbor, etc. But this doesn't say that all orcs have to have these relations to kobolds, dwarves, geniekin, etc.
IIRC, FR MC.
Also, the race Dragonamedrake is speaking of is called the Thri-Kreen, and it was originally one of the races available in the Dark Sun campaign setting if I remember right. That setting also had Half-Giants, crossbreeds of human and dwarf (called the Mul) as well as some other monstrous races in a rather unforgiving environment.
Thats right... Thanks for the name. And we never played that setting but I always wanted to. Now in a setting like that I would of course allow it because the populace is somewhat ajusted to them. We almost always played Forgotten Realms(O how I miss that setting).
@Icyshadow - Yeah I dont remember seeing them till Dark Sun either. I dont recall ever seeing them in the FR setting.
Also, the race Dragonamedrake is speaking of is called the Thri-Kreen, and it was originally one of the races available in the Dark Sun campaign setting if I remember right. That setting also had Half-Giants, crossbreeds of human and dwarf (called the Mul) as well as some other monstrous races in a rather unforgiving environment.Thats right... Thanks for the name. And we never played that setting but I always wanted to. Now in a setting like that I would of course allow it because the populace is somewhat ajusted to them. We almost always played Forgotten Realms(O how I miss that setting).
@Icyshadow - Yeah I dont remember seeing them till Dark Sun either. I dont recall ever seeing them in the FR setting.
First place I saw them was the AD&D MM2. The first place I remember them as a player race from is Dark Sun, but I'm old now, and my memory is s@$~ty.
Edit: Also, as much as I fall on the side of letting people play whatever race they want, anyone playing a thri-keen in my campaign is going to have to come to terms with the wizards guild debating whether to A)interview, B)dissect or C)vivisect ("Now there's a compromise we can both live with; half of us can interview him while the other half cut him apart!") their character.
To be sure, FR never did anything with them. Still, I guess if they were in MM2, I was wrong.
First place I saw them was the AD&D MM2. The first place I remember them as a player race from is Dark Sun, but I'm old now, and my memory is s@&%ty
Monster cards in 1982, then reprinted in the 1e MM2, so they predate both Dark Sun and Forgotten Realms (as monsters). Not sure when they became "playable" as PCs, but then again, I'm not real big on playing exotics. Like, at all.
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... I wanna play a thri-kreen! =)
(1) Does it put you at an equivalent power level to the rest of the party?
(2) Are the other players OK with you being a bug?
(3) If so, can you and I find a way to work it halfway convincingly into the setting? (I'm definitely willing to put the effort in, and will exercise some degree of creativity, but even so I can't 100% guarantee results).
If (and only if) the answers to all three questions are "yes," then can haz bugPC!
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Not this again. Do you hold players that stay within a single class to the same restriction? Because sometimes classes get an ability at level X, that they couldn't possibly use at level (X-1). If a GM handwaves that situation, then there is no reason to not handwave a situation where a player takes a level in another class (especially in PF where they nerfed multiclassing). "You can't take a level in barbarian, you have been in a city the whole level. You have to spend time in the wilderness wiping your butt with tree bark." Which clearly indicates the GM doesn't understand the difference between the barbarian class and the barbarian culture, hint: they aren't necessarily the same.Training, generally, is how I hand-wave the fact that people multiclass willy nilly or gain super cool new abilities without using them, just one day bampf, you have it.
So, basically, there's not a huge amount of game wise crunch penalty (I'd ask the player to tell me what he's working on self-training from game to game, what he's building toward for the next level) so he'd have to incorporate that into his RP and take time in game to self-teach. Usually it doesn't come up unless someone's playing the fish out of water (Barbarian in a land with no barbarians, samurai in ye olden London town, etc).
Uhm, you should probably actually read the entire conversation before setting keyboard to flame? The question was, originally, what the game issues of having a Samurai on a continent where no Samurai were. So yes, that is the rule that I'd use for a single class person, and multiclass as well. I don't consider requiring the PC to RP out that they are self teaching and spending time doing it in game to be all that much of an onus. Of course, if you prefer to remove all roleplaying and just play hack and slash, that's fine as long as your whole group wants to play that.
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And that's the point that I (and I think Kirth and probably a few others) have been trying to argue.
It's about the group, not any one person. Even in my example of the 'Bad Player', it only flew because it was the desire of the entire group that we be able to accomodate him so that he would join us at the table.
Yep, Kirth is probably a bit more relaxed about his setting than I am, but it's still about working together.
The post was more directed at the people who insist every PC option in every published book must be allowed in every game with no RP restrictions on the PC, or people who insist that they have absolutely authority over what each person is allowed to bring to the table.
There are always some things as GM I restrict (like, for example, the Antagonize feat, or Firearms/Gunslingers, or Scry & Fry). But a restriction is the exception, not the rule. I think most games operate that way.
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Seriously, have the fun of such a campaign would be the fish out of water effect of being some guy who's a 100% normal bumpkin in his homeland, only to set out on adventure and find a land where he's seen as strange, exotic, or maybe even scary!Soooooooooo much opportunity there. Especially if he made some friends and decided to bring them back to his homeland!
So much opportunity? Maybe, but is it equal opportunity for the other players? That's one of the dangers of playing the fish out of water or the lone example of something that, until the player asked for it, explicitly did not exist. If the DM is expected to play the NPCs with any consistency and realism, one would expect that fish out of water to garner more than his fair share of attention. Does that keep the game an ensemble piece between the players or does it make the other players supporting characters for the oddball's star vehicle?
In such a situation, I'd probably suggest that all of the players play the same race option with maybe a minority of locals to act as guides into the local culture. That would distribute the attention in a way that's more equitable. Frankly, the whole situation may not sit well with other players at the table.
Of course, if you prefer to remove all roleplaying and just play hack and slash, that's fine as long as your whole group wants to play that.
And if you prefer to have your players roleplaying out all the minutia of their characters daily lives, such as going to the bathroom, eating breakfast, brushing their hair, polishing their armor, sharpening their weapons, etc., that is fine as long as your whole group wants to play like that.
In such a situation, I'd probably suggest that all of the players play the same race option with maybe a minority of locals to act as guides into the local culture. That would distribute the attention in a way that's more equitable. Frankly, the whole situation may not sit well with other players at the table.
This actually happened in a campaign, the group was tasked by their government to travel to the Eastern Continent to bring back information on it, it's cultures, etc. However, a couple of the party were not exactly easy to fit in there (a half-dragon hobgoblin, a svirnefblin, a serpentfolk, and a gippli). What little they had on the continent indicated that half-dragons were unusual but not unheard of, and that there were reptile folk of some kind, and frog folk. But they weren't sure if there were any svirneflim, as they had had reports that humans were a majority, and animal like races, and that was it. So the svirnefblin player brought in a new serpent folk instead (note these were guys from the Northern Continent, thus no core races). They were briefed extensively that humans were not 6 feet tall and couldn't kill people with a glance.
Of course, the first thing they ran into was a 15th level ronin suli samurai who one-shotted their half-dragon (critical hit with sword saint). The next battle they had with a human was a 16th level cavalier (they actually didn't fight her, the Ronin fought her, they fought her mount, who nearly took them out). So they're all giving the humans in the setting round eyes and wide births. :) Especially the half-dragon (he took 123 out of a 113 hp when he got one-shotted).
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I always play non humans, the stranger the better.
In some cases its because it fits mechanically
In some cases its because I want the role play challenge.
In some cases its because I want to do something different.
Balance wise Humans are very very strong. If you follow the guide boards Humans are always at or near the top, the bonus feat is mechanically one of the most broken things you can give a character. In some cases it makes a class work as if they were 2 levels higher because they needed that extra feat.
Its why humans dominate the world.
The problem for me is I am human, I want to play something else.
So much opportunity? Maybe, but is it equal opportunity for the other players? That's one of the dangers of playing the fish out of water or the lone example of something that, until the player asked for it, explicitly did not exist. If the DM is expected to play the NPCs with any consistency and realism, one would expect that fish out of water to garner more than his fair share of attention. Does that keep the game an ensemble piece between the players or does it make the other players supporting characters for the oddball's star vehicle?
In such a situation, I'd probably suggest that all of the players play the same race option with maybe a minority of locals to act as guides into the local culture. That would distribute the attention in a way that's more equitable. Frankly, the whole situation may not sit well with other players at the table.
Why, this is crazytalk. Are you telling me it might steal the spotlight to play a non-core race in a game where that race does not exist, or is, indeed, antagonistic?
Absolute balderdash. I'm going back to Sandpoint to tell everyone how silly you are.
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So much opportunity? Maybe, but is it equal opportunity for the other players? That's one of the dangers of playing the fish out of water or the lone example of something that, until the player asked for it, explicitly did not exist.
Seriously, have the fun of such a campaign would be the fish out of water effect of being some guy who's a 100% normal bumpkin in his homeland, only to set out on adventure and find a land where he's seen as strange, exotic, or maybe even scary!Soooooooooo much opportunity there. Especially if he made some friends and decided to bring them back to his homeland!
I dunno. It's never really occurred to me that the concept of "stranger in a strange land" has anything to do with anyone else. It's just a potential to see the world in a different way, and probably affects everyone in the party less than an oracle's forced curses, unless for some reason being a foreigner means the party is going to be harassed constantly.
If the DM is expected to play the NPCs with any consistency and realism, one would expect that fish out of water to garner more than his fair share of attention. Does that keep the game an ensemble piece between the players or does it make the other players supporting characters for the oddball's star vehicle?
I don't really see this happening. All I see it as is a springboard as a fun character trope. Because there's something interesting about your character due to the fish out of water aspect does not mean that suddenly every other character is boring and not worth attention (unless they were already boring and not worth attention).
Of course, this is perhaps due to the fact I've never seen a group that was required to be all of a single race. I've seen parties that had stuff that was definitely non-core.
Short Story
Not long ago I was in a group that was playing Rappan Athuk. My character was a wizard whose motivation for exploring the ruin was that the ruin was built and supposedly maintained by followers of Orcus. My character was a former mystic theurge of Orcus who had died, and one of her students stole her body and a bunch of valuable books, scrolls, and materials to try and revive her. He tried to turn her into a lich, but being no where near a CL 11th caster and botching the process she was returned as a sort of failed lich with severe level deprevation in the form of amnesia. Eventually the pair were hunted down and slain by the cultists, but being a semi-lich she picked herself up a while later and decided she needed to know more.
So she took his journal, her spellbook, a few supplies from the cabin and her old clerical vestments and her skull-tipped scepter and took off to find an adventuring party to explore the ruins with to try and find out what her former companion was not telling her.
Key pieces of the journal she was holding.
Her race was...a modified bloody skeleton. Pretty much a bloody skeleton with a +2 Int, +2 Cha. It was a pretty good "failed lich". She pretty much integrated in with the party, and when it was later determined that she was undead she explained her motivations a little further and the group continued on. Meanwhile, more attention was probably given to the party cleric's mission to find and rescue some missing people.
Being different has nothing to do with stealing shows. Chewbacca, C3PO and R2D2 doesn't ruin Star Wars for the rest of the cast
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Seriously, have the fun of such a campaign would be the fish out of water effect of being some guy who's a 100% normal bumpkin in his homeland, only to set out on adventure and find a land where he's seen as strange, exotic, or maybe even scary!Soooooooooo much opportunity there. Especially if he made some friends and decided to bring them back to his homeland!
So much opportunity? Maybe, but is it equal opportunity for the other players? That's one of the dangers of playing the fish out of water or the lone example of something that, until the player asked for it, explicitly did not exist. If the DM is expected to play the NPCs with any consistency and realism, one would expect that fish out of water to garner more than his fair share of attention. Does that keep the game an ensemble piece between the players or does it make the other players supporting characters for the oddball's star vehicle?
In such a situation, I'd probably suggest that all of the players play the same race option with maybe a minority of locals to act as guides into the local culture. That would distribute the attention in a way that's more equitable. Frankly, the whole situation may not sit well with other players at the table.
Attention from the GM, or attention from the NPCs? 'Cause the GM controls one . . . no, wait, both of those, now that I think about it.
On the one hand, I get what you're saying. A unique or exotic race can be a very obvious warning sign of a prima donna player. On the other hand, prima donnas don't play well with others, and that's a separate problem from exotic race antipathy, at least in my experience.
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I'll be serious for a moment about Darst. While I had a blast with him, and I like to think the others in the PbP also enjoyed his antics, some characters are just naturally attention-grabbing. No matter how hard I tried to get him out of the way now and again so the other players could take the spotlight, he always seemed to find a way to distract. He was a goblin in Burnt Offerings. Kinda hard to keep him out of the way.
It's not always the player's fault. Sometimes they just make a character that attracts attention, and that might annoy the other players after a while. It's something to keep in mind.
Indeed, Darst (nice avatar, btw), if your character is an over the top, freewheelin' extrovert, that's just good role-playing. I guess I'm saying a prima donna character is a whole 'nother animal from a prima donna player.
Oh, I agree. That's what I'm saying--a prima donna character (like the sole member of a lost race) can hog the spotlight even if made with the best of intentions. It's important to make sure the other players are okay with that.
This is a good point.
Remember, when you make your Goblin in Jade Regent, or your half-dragon in Dragonlance, or your orc in a campaign about the war against orcs, you should think about your fellow players as well.
If they are ok with the fact that you will cause them problems in each city or village you visit, that you will be the constant center of attention due to the natural antipathy to your race, then that's great. But some of them may want to play the game without having to have their every RP deal with keeping the Goblin from being strung up in every city they go to (Much like playing a Paladin in a CN campaign becomes about 'hide what we're doing from the Paladin' all the time instead of about the game itself).
Which basically comes down to 'Do not make it hard on the other players'.
Note that this comes from someone playing a Tiefling Paladin of Ragathiel in a Jade Regent campaign (NG Aasimar Cleric of Saronrai, Human LN Sword Saint Samurai, Human NG Evocation Wizard, and Human LN Monk), so I thought hard about playing him before I knew what the others were playing. So far, it's worked well.
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This is a good point.
Remember, when you make your Goblin in Jade Regent, or your half-dragon in Dragonlance, or your orc in a campaign about the war against orcs, you should think about your fellow players as well.
If they are ok with the fact that you will cause them problems in each city or village you visit, that you will be the constant center of attention due to the natural antipathy to your race, then that's great. But some of them may want to play the game without having to have their every RP deal with keeping the Goblin from being strung up in every city they go to (Much like playing a Paladin in a CN campaign becomes about 'hide what we're doing from the Paladin' all the time instead of about the game itself).
Which basically comes down to 'Do not make it hard on the other players'.
Note that this comes from someone playing a Tiefling Paladin of Ragathiel in a Jade Regent campaign (NG Aasimar Cleric of Saronrai, Human LN Sword Saint Samurai, Human NG Evocation Wizard, and Human LN Monk), so I thought hard about playing him before I knew what the others were playing. So far, it's worked well.
** spoiler omitted **
This is always, always good advice.
Also, Mdt, is there room in your campaign for a half red dragon/half fire genasi, who enters the campaign after being rescued from a star destroyer escape pod found floating in the ocean (or possibly left on the beach by high tide, that's negotiable); yes, I must start at +10 racial HD, and carry a laser pistol (non-negotiable).
So, hey, last night my wife and I were sitting around (as you do), relaxing when I got the idea to roll a random new character with her.
Not knowing who it was that was going to play it, we rolled and randomly determined it came from the 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook.
Rolled, and determined that it came from the Monsters in the back.
Rolled and determined that it was a Cerebrilith.
While that's cool and all, I kind of wanted it to be able to blend in, as well. (Besides, romance options are easier to create when you have something that vaguely resembles a human - while roughly humanoid in shape, and despite the fact that some may, er, prefer that kind of thing, Cerebriliths don't.)
Keeping with the psionic theme we rolled randomly on the race chart and turned up a Githyanki.
Turns out she's female, 6'8", 157lbs (all randomly determined). The cerebrilith is also female (randomly determined).
Neat!
Adding some randomly determined psychic warrior-wilder-pyrokineticist gestalt-like-things going on, and we created the character out of it.
What could cause such a thing to come about? How is a Githyanki a Cerebrilith? Why psychic warrior/wilder/pyrokineticist?
She was set up to go on a mission with her best friend and most trusted ally... a really important mission to find and reclaim a lost Githyanki Silver Sword, one who's power was beyond the scope of some of the greatest enchanters and smiths alive today.
It was, of course, naught be a trap, and she was betrayed by her best friend who was hired to do exactly that, and all too willing for the power he was promised The friend had "executed" her by shoving her into an extradimensional hole at the suggestion of a cerebrilith conjured quite some time ago. He was shortly thereafter executed for causing the holy mission to fail, unbeknownst to her.
Thus, the first level Githyanki was stranded in a small demiplane that lacked any exit with no way out and none who knew of her true fate.
Some time earlier, a cerebrilith had come to the same demiplane, in an attempted power grab of her own. Lila, as she was known, had collected a number of favors and had thus learned that there may be an awesome treasure inside... treasure powerful enough to gain her sway with the Githyanki.
She was, of course, betrayed by her best friend, brood-brother, and lover. The creature cruelly trapped her inside the "empty" demiplane and used the scroll secretly granted by her Glabrezu "ally" to render her comatose, remove her memories, and seal her under a building and ensure that the portals into the place were one-way and extremely hidden (though his original task was to use the power to destroy all the portals - he changed the execution his orders at the last minute, because he thought a "garbage disposal" that only he knew about might be convenient).
He was, of course, shortly thereafter conjured by some Githyanki (where he told a minor pissant warrior about a "secret hole" to "get rid of things he didn't want found" while no one else was around), and, upon returning to the Abyss and reporting his success, cruelly murdered and devoured by the Glabrezu who'd hired him.
And so the cerebrilith was trapped in a small pocket, her fate unknown by all. Using a dorje of her own (it's like a wand), after waking, the cerebrilith - remembering only that she was betrayed - hibernated, hoping to survive until she could find a place to teleport to or was somehow rescued.
Much later, a betrayed and lonely Nikita, in a fit of rage, burned the only structure in the plane, just to watch something else burn with her.
To her surprise, she found a trap door hidden below. There, she located the cerebrilith and all its treasure sealed with it - what was so long sought by them both. Nikita scraped the quintessence off of Lila... and they struck a deal.
Calling in a final favor, Lila summoned a Cerebrilith from the court of the very Glabrezu who'd had her killed, to bring a message to his Glabrezu master. Forced to grant the favor he'd dreaded, he granted the mortal's wish: that Lila and Nikita together "immediately" gained "vast power: more than enough power needed to leave this accursed prison plane with all the treasure we have".
Furious, the Glabrezu granted the wish, but it was, of course, twisted. Githyanki gain the ability to plane shift at nine hit dice. Cerebriliths have nine hit dice. And so the nine hit dice were granted the githyanki - the cerebrilith's hit dice. Power they were both given - vast power. But their power was created by intertwining the two different creatures with themselves into one, singular creature.
And so Figi-Mugi Nikita Lila took her first breath... and the shining silver blade... and left the plane of entrapment behind.
She's really interested in playing it, and I'm interested in running it.
What started as a simple batch of ridiculous mechanics turned into a really interesting and fully fleshed out back story.
Also, before people point out that this is a "one-on-one" campaign and thus "is different", it should be noted that I totally did this kind of crazy shenanigans in some of my "regular" (i.e. "lots of people") games too. Once we even ran a game where someone was more or less a direct port of Pelor's avatar from deities and demigods!
I freely admit that something like this is "gonzo" and beyond the normal ideas and limits suggested and agreed upon by most in this thread.
But it's still worked out pretty well so far. Even when I gave six players relatively free reign with creatures based off of CRs.
This even functioned really well in relatively "tight" and reasonably "restricted" campaign settings where almost everything is not only known, but carefully placed by me... or at least it did in ours.
Obviously my experiences vary compared to others'. I'm not discounting yours for your local groups when I say: my groups have mostly been able to handle doing really "out there" gaming experiences, regardless of the number, high-power, or crazy shenanigans set up. (Though usually - though not always! - the more "wacky" the races the "lighter" the specific applications of all the rules are, even though the settings tend to be rather "tight".)
Anyway, I thought I'd share one of the more bizarre things I'm (likely to) run race-wise, since, you know, this is about exotic races. Clearly, I'm not averse to them. (All this, and I still lean slightly more toward the "GM's right to establish restrictions" side... at least, when I'm the player...)
* Incorporating some PF elements for ease, too.
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Also, Mdt, is there room in your campaign for a half red dragon/half fire genasi, who enters the campaign after being rescued from a star destroyer escape pod found floating in the ocean (or possibly left on the beach by high tide, that's negotiable); yes, I must start at +10 racial HD, and carry a laser pistol (non-negotiable).
Depends on the game, honestly. I've had half-dragons as both PCs and villains, and the other half is pretty much wide open.
Assuming you did however, it would probably be in a level 15+ campaign, and you'd have your CR adjustment to your max level per the bestiary rules. And your laser would not be repairable with local materials, so the first time it crit fails or get's sundered, you're pretty much out of laser pistol. Oh, and no way to recharge it, due to lack of technology.
Floating on the ocean is a bad idea, a kraken would eat you the first time one of the ocean god's minions notice the pod. Although if you want to do a one-on-one session of trying to take the kraken with you...
The rest of the players would likely be level 15, and the enemies level 17 to level 20 (I usually end up with 5-6 players, so I have to up the CR of challenges).
You'd also have to cope with learning how things work, since you'd not know anything about anything, so I'd suggest not taking any cultural or historical knowledge skills (Maybe just stick to Engineering at most).
:)
... I wanna play a thri-kreen! =)
I'll allow it. Love those guys.
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Well to be clear, at least in Golarion, PF's default setting ...
** spoiler omitted **Yet even with that, I still expect good characters to act good and that means not immediately attacking sentient beings merely based on their race.
In Into the Darklands (or was that somewhere in Second Darkness?), it said that non-Evil Drow are sometimes born, but 99.41% of them don't live long enough to leave Drow communities. Most of them get killed or turned into Driders.
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Won't somebody think of the good driders?
There aren't any. The Drow are sure to replace all that Goodness with Insanity.
Though that does provide a good hook for a Darklands Adventure: A Drow PC (Or NPC) was the only of n Good siblings to make it out of their home. They end up finding out that their other sibs were not killed but turned into Driders, and want the (rest of the?) PC's help to capture and extract them and restore their minds, if not their bodies as well.
D**K DM D**K Player
Scenario :
Also, there's no Gods on this continent, and no I won't tell you why, it's part of the history of the world, and one of the mysteries you may encounter, so no spoilers. This means no Clerics, Druids, Paladins or Inquisitors on this continent. They have major issues using their powers here. On the other hand, Witches, Oracles, Bards, Rangers, Wizards, Sorcerers, and Magi are just fine here.
Whaaaaaaaat, Oracles and Witches are fine but Clerics and Druids don't work? This just strikes me as arbitrary hair splitting but it's not related to the player issue.
Now, which one do you want to do?
Players wrangle a bit, and choose Northern Continent
Player A : Ok, I want to play the last human alive, who's been hiding in the city since birth.
GM : Uhm, humans died out a thousand years ago, the city has these huge legends of 9 foot tall humans who snort fire and eat babies. They scare small drow and goblin children into behaving by telling them the humans will come eat them if they don't behave. There are no humans, it's kind of the whole point.
Player A : I'm not gonna play unless I can play a human.
->GM:Okay fine, coastal forces attacked your ship and it was sunk. Your family swam ashore but died shortly thereafter. You were taken in by a local who found you crying in the dead embrace of your mother/father. They felt a morbid curiosity and decided to raise you to see what a human was really like. To find out how much truth there is in the old stories. blah blah blah.
Player gets what they want, setting lore is maintained.
Players wrangle back and forth, and finally settle on the Eastern Continent
Player B : Ok, I'm playing a Cleric who's trying to bring the Gods back to the land.
GM : You can play a foreign cleric missionary, but you'll have to make a caster level check every day to get your spells, due to the lack of a conduit to the god.
Player B : Oh no you don't, you can't take away my powers like that, you either give me all my powers, or I'm not playing.
->Player B: How about I worship all gods, as a concept, rather than a specific deity. The idea that divine entities provide a net benefit to their worshippers and so rather than take my power from a specific deity I worship theology itself? After all, I want to bring back all the gods, not just mine. (I mean, it's just a class, really).
Players wrangle back and forth, and finally settle on the Southern Continent
Player C : Ok, I'm going to play a Kitsune Ninja! I was looking at the class and race when we were going to do Eastern Continent, and I'm really psyched!
GM : Gaahhh... Fine, but you're going to be an outcast, and there will be no other Ninja's to train with, and being so exotic, you're going to have trouble in Human run areas and Elf run areas especially. Actually, the darves are pretty insular, and they don't even like humans and elves coming around, they're likely to treat you like an animal.
Player C : Hey, quit making my life hard! it's not fair you won't let me play what I want to play! They should all like Kitsune! They're cute!
->Player C: I'll just stay in human form the whole time so everyone will think I'm human.
->GM: I can even have a group of dudes go around rooting out the alien menace who might or might not get suspicious of you. Up to you.Honestly, these situations are always incredibly contrived. The problem is people not being willing to adapt ideas/being to rigid and not compromising.
Won't somebody think of the good driders?
My campaign includes driders as a PC race. Carrying the torch!
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Ashiel, please visit Finland! I want a DM like you!! ;o;
...D**K DM D**K Player
** spoiler omitted **
Or you could just be polite and pick one of the multitude of options available to you.
The Core Only crowd insists that you play one of the 7 Core Races.
Seven is very far away from being a multitude, at least in normal mathematics.
The Core Only crowd insists that you play one of the 7 Core Races.
Seven is very far away from being a multitude, at least in normal mathematics.
You should have read the spoiler.
He was talking about the multitude of options available in the scenario in that spoiler.
Let's see,
Races : Bugbear, Hobgoblin, Drow, Catfolk, Goblin, Serpentfolk, Lizardfolk, Minotaur, Centaur, Duerger, Svirnefblin, Gargoyle, Gnoll, Kobold, Mite, Ogre, Orc, Satyr, Mongrelman, Quickling, Spriggan,
Templates : Half-Celestial, Half-Fiend, Half-Dragon, Ogrekin
Classes : Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Paladin, Monk, Sorcerer, Rogue, Wizard, Inquisitor, Summoner, Alchemist, Magus, Oracle, Witch, Ranger, and Cavalier.
So, 21 Races * 5 (Templates + Normal) * 17 (Classes) : 1,785 options. Pathetically few yes? How could anyone make a character with that few combinations?
Races : Human, Catfolk, Ratfolk, Vanara, Vishkanya, Tengu, Nagaji, Suli, Oread, Ifrit, Undine, Sylph, Half-Orc, Aasimar, Tiefling, Dhampir, Fetchling, Grippli, Samsaran, Gillmen
Templates : Half-Dragon, Ogrekin
Classes : Bard, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Sorcerer, Rogue, Wizard, Summoner, Alchemist, Magus, Oracle, Witch, Ranger, Cavalier, Samurai, Ninja
So, 20 Races * 3 (Templates + Normal) * 16 (Classes) : 960 options. Oh my god, it's even worse! How can anyone make a character with that few options! It's impossible I tell you!
Races : Human, Elf, Dwarf, Half-Elf, Halfling, Gnome, Catfolk, Lizardfolk, Half-Orc, Orc, Fetchling, Oread, Ifrit, Undine, Sylph, Dhampir, Suli, Grippli
Templates : Half-Dragon
Classes : Any (Except Samurai, Ninja)
So, 18 Races * 2 (standard + template) * 18 (Classes) = 648 options. God, it just get's worse and worse doesn't it? No sane player should play in such games, it's too limiting! Oh my god, the humanity!
Whaaaaaaaat, Oracles and Witches are fine but Clerics and Druids don't work? This just strikes me as arbitrary hair splitting but it's not related to the player issue.
Oracles are not required follow a god, and do not derive their powers from one even if they do follow one.
Witches receive their powers from a patron, which is not a god (see description).
Both Druids and Clerics receive their powers from one specific god.
When there are no gods, or the gods are prevented or choose not to be available in a specific area, then it would be impossible for clerics and druids to be in those areas, yes? Or are you saying the GM should let someone play a Druid/Cleric and then simply strip away most of their powers since the god can't be reached?
->GM:Okay fine, coastal forces attacked your ship and it was sunk. Your family swam ashore but died shortly thereafter. You were taken in by a local who found you crying in the dead embrace of your mother/father. They felt a morbid curiosity and decided to raise you to see what a human was really like. To find out how much truth there is in the old stories. blah blah blah.Player gets what they want, setting lore is maintained.
A) The only place a human could get raised would be the 'good' city, which is landlocked in the middle of the continent built on a mountain. Coastal would be probably put in the pot as dinner. Either way, it wouldn't be in the city.
B) The whole concept of the lore is 'Core races extinct on this continent', so no, having 'a core race' does not keep the lore intact. If the entire group is shipwrecked from another continent (which I have done), then the lore works. But nobody believes they are humans/elves/etc. :)
->Player B: How about I worship all gods, as a concept, rather than a specific deity. The idea that divine entities provide a net benefit to their worshippers and so rather than take my power from a specific deity I worship theology itself? After all, I want to bring back all the gods, not just mine. (I mean, it's just a class, really).
A) Except that all clerics/druids/inquisitors/paladins must worship a god. Default rules state this, and within this world, there are no 'concept' druid/cleric/inquisitor/paladin classes. So, no, that doesn't work.
B) Even if they worshipped an entire pantheon (Which I do allow), it does no good if the gods can't or won't reach out to the land in question. You can be in the army, or you can hold simultaneous commissions in the army, navy, air force, and marines, but none of them do you any good if you're on Proxima Centauri IV and said institutions don't have interstellar travel. None of them are giving you any support.
->Player C: I'll just stay in human form the whole time so everyone will think I'm human.->GM: I can even have a group of dudes go around rooting out the alien menace who might or might not get suspicious of you. Up to you.
This is probably the closest to compromise you've stated. Up until now, it's been 'Player gets shiny no matter what'.
Honestly, these situations are always incredibly contrived. The problem is people not being willing to adapt ideas/being to rigid and not compromising.
I would submit the GM was being pretty flexible. 3 different options, each with different limitations, and allowing the group to pick what they wanted. The Player reactions were contrived, but were based on statements made by people in this thread over how they had to have X or else.
I do agree most problems do revolve around people not being flexible enough (both GM and Player). But your responses point out that no matter how flexible someone is, there's always someone less reasonable who says 'Hey, that's not flexible enough, you did't put your foot behind your head and lick your own toes!'.
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War never changes...
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I do find it strange when a GM says, "Everyone is told humans are 9 foot fire breathing monsters." And then says they would immediately be able to correctly identify a human, that doesn't fit that description. Wouldn't they assume the human was some other type of humanoid more similar to what they are familiar with? "It looks like one of those rare weak pink skin offsprings that shows up in that orc tribe over there" (due to having half-orc blood in their line).
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Then the party opens some sealed tomb of ancient man, and out strides an army of nine foot tall, fire-breathing... humans.
I do find it strange when a GM says, "Everyone is told humans are 9 foot fire breathing monsters." And then says they would immediately be able to correctly identify a human, that doesn't fit that description. Wouldn't they assume the human was some other type of humanoid more similar to what they are familiar with? "It looks like one of those rare weak pink skin offsprings that shows up in that orc tribe over there" (due to having half-orc blood in their line).
Nope, never said they would immediately recognize them. Thanks for the straw man though, they are rather easier to knock down I know, but I really do have a warehouse full at this point.
The statement was, there are none, period. As in, it don't exist. Kind of like a snipe. You can go on a snipe hunt all you want, it doesn't exist. There you go. Strawman disassembled, please return it where you found it, I'm sure there is a straw woman and straw children somewhere worried about it and eager to put it back together again for some other argument.