I have had an opportunity to run a casual game of Pathfinder, in which we start at 7:30pm and end at 10:30pm, giving me around three hours to run an adventure for five players, 3 male, 2 female, one of said female has never played pathfinder before. I should be pretty excited, as I have run City of The Spider Queen, and a home brewed game, where I got a drow party up to APL of 20 back in 3.0 and 3.5 respectively, with several other games, and I was a GM back at any games days and RPGA events; then this group happened.
Both female players, one being my finance, who has yet to get any special treatment over the other players, have been wanting to actually play the game, roll dice, adventure and go out there and do, well, anything. From the get go, the other members of the game have all but ground the last three game sessions to a halt, even going as far as re-rolling characters, only to complain on how they only get 6,000 gold to spend, and can only spend certain percentages of that gold on items, with a limited quantity (as per page 400 or the Core Rule Book). Two of said male players tend to show up late, almost up till 8pm, at which point, granted, the before game chit chatting happens, so it can be up till 8:15ish, before we even start the game.
So, the game starts, alcohol starts being consumed forthwith, and one drinks enough to drown an Irish pub, it feels. Now, lets go back up to the start of this campaign. I asked them to be heroic characters, or non-evil alignment, and to be a force of good in the world, and that it'd be a King Maker campaign. Alignments are NG Female Paladin (home rule for paladins, is that they can be any good alignment), CG Female Barbarian, NG Male Cleric, CN Male Sorcerer, and LN Male Zen Archer. So far, the cleric has been anything but NG, only looking out for his party, the Zen Archer threatening the helping npc in their party, and those are my two BIG troublemakers, and drinkers of booze. All in all, they're treasure hunters, in a broken, and battle torn land, that for a thousand years saw the worst of a war, leaving being tombs, treasure, and ancient knowledge.
I have done a lot to try to guide this party, via dropping hints at areas of intrigue, name dropping, letting them know that there are two large political and military juggernauts that no one wishes to be on bad terms with. Every encounter, every plot device, and every hint at anything for them to head towards any of the point of interests, skillfully avoided, negated, or ran away from. The idea of running a kingdom, thrown right back into my face, because they don't want to. After they've sold what they've found, via the unavoidable encounters and exploration, they learn that the area they've been traveling in has had several areas that overlap with the plane of shadow, making travel both quicker, but navigating harder. To which the response was to avoid that area at all cost, and travel south instead, for any other ruins. Their helping npc, a cartographer, made it known that if they could find a way to stop the planar bleeding, they could effectively map the region. The response was simple, “We are not heroes, or adventurers, we are mercenaries and entrepreneurs.”
With that said, the helping, npc checks his maps and says there are lands to the south that have been lost, but they'd need traveling papers in order to cross the borders that lead there. It would cost a few gold for normal traveling papers, and a lot more for border traveling papers that are carte-blank, a head. Which, they had used their gold from re-rolling, to buy a year contract with 33 npcs that follow them around, so the cost was fairly high, having just sold their treasure for a whopping 38,000g, however, that shouldn't have been an issue. But, apparently, the cartographer was incompetent for this suggestion, and when the cartographer took offense, the LN Zen Archer threatened the man, that he'd kill him.
So, to sum up everything, without going into too much, further detail, what do I do with this group, that is doing their best to avoid anything that would anchor down a plot, make them heroes, like they agreed to play at the start of the game. Said be said, one player says I'm too limiting (because of the gold per level as per Core Rule Book) and because they are too low level (the're sixth level now), and isn't happy that there are NPCs of note that are more powerful than them.
I know they wanted to kill the NPC that held the title of arch-mage, and that is what made one of the players mad the most when he found out the arch-mage could cast higher level spells than their party members. While the girl who isn't my finance is absolutely pissed, because she saw my plot drops, my trying to get the party to do something, go on an adventure, and wants her CG Barbarian to do some smashy smashy and not role play out the next 14 levels. She's thinking of leaving now, because she's tired of the +15 avoid all the GM's plans rolls the players do.
So far, from friends that no longer live near me, have suggested one thing. “Get a new group.” “Kill them all, and make them re-roll characters that work with the game master.” However, pickers can't be choosers, and as difficult as they're being, this is the only group I know, and short of killing them, thats all kinds of heavy handed, especially to the new girl.
To say the least, I'm not having fun either, with the amount of hours I've spent plotting out encounters, making NPCs, and trying to run the game. If you want me to type out a full story of exactly everything that happened last session, I will. So, I ask, with a general question; What should I do? I need the advice.
Sorry for a rant
Tell your players exactly this, specifically the part where you're not having fun. Talk to them politely, but directly. Outline the specific problems and see if some compromise can be reached.
If not, remember that bad gaming is worse than no gaming. If you can't have fun with these folks, just tell them 'game over'.
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It boils down to this.
Pathfinder, and just about every other RPG ever made, is a social story-telling event. The GM and the players agree to tell a shared story between them. Sure, the GM probably knows more about the story than anyone else; that's the "G" part in "RPG", but everyone must agree that you're collectively telling one story, one shared story, together.
This is the social contract that all GMs and players of RPGs always live by. Games where this social contract is followed work well and games where it is not followed fail miserably.
You need to get your players on board with this basic concept of the social contract and YOU have to be on board with it too. I say the last part because if 5 players, or at least most of the 5 players, want to play a certain way and YOU don't want to play that way, then it's YOU who is breaking the social contract.
It requires all 6 of you to find the happy medium and then agree to the social contract and then abide by it. If that cannot happen, then the group (majority who agree) need to replace the problem players (minority who cannot agree, might include the GM) so that you have one group fully on board with this all-important social contract.
From there, the rest is easy.
It boils down to this.
Pathfinder, and just about every other RPG ever made, is a social story-telling event. The GM and the players agree to tell a shared story between them. Sure, the GM probably knows more about the story than anyone else; that's the "G" part in "RPG", but everyone must agree that you're collectively telling one story, one shared story, together.
This is the social contract that all GMs and players of RPGs always live by. Games where this social contract is followed work well and games where it is not followed fail miserably.
You need to get your players on board with this basic concept of the social contract and YOU have to be on board with it too. I say the last part because if 5 players, or at least most of the 5 players, want to play a certain way and YOU don't want to play that way, then it's YOU who is breaking the social contract.
It requires all 6 of you to find the happy medium and then agree to the social contract and then abide by it. If that cannot happen, then the group (majority who agree) need to replace the problem players (minority who cannot agree, might include the GM) so that you have one group fully on board with this all-important social contract.
From there, the rest is easy.
This is excellent advice. I'd also add that you may want to try ye ol' dungeon crawl to see if things are any better before launching into nation building like Kingmaker.
While it may appear that you are completely stuck for players, in my experience a group of people having a genuinely good time will always attract more people.
Finally, it sounds as though you are interested in a fairly serious game with intrigue and the like. I applaud you for this, but you may want to try to have sober players for such a game.
Thank you all for the advice.
It may be time for a good sit down with these guys, because, frankly, we're not gaming anymore, we're chatting, and we could do that in second life if we wanted to sit there for hours doing nothing.
Though, today, the two trouble makers called off the game to work on something that both of them have time to do the rest of the week / weekend.
Just feels like one slap to the face after another.
Heimdall, good advice there too. It will take time, but doable, if they don't quit because I'm too limiting to them.
Though, I think the overall problem is they seem to be in the "GM vs Player" mindset.
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It's hard to GM in your place especially with uncooperative people like yours. Do note that some people have stubborn personalities. You won't be able to change them, but you can bribe them with a candy. Candy in this case seems like your players (at least some of them) need is good old dungeon crawl to get the character violence out of the system.
You are only a single man here mate, much like DM Blake said, it's social contract. Others need to be part of the story, not tagging along.
Anoron: I feel your pain. When I first came back to the States a while back, I had to start looking for a game from scratch. None of my old high school or college friends lived nearby anymore, so I was left with no other options. I found a game, but it was terrible. >.<
However, one of the guys in the group was really great. And unbeknownst to me, he began looking for new players through the internet, hobby shops, etc. He eventually formed up his own group, which he invited me to be a part of, and the members of that group have been dear friends of mine for over ten years now.
The moral of the story is to not give up, and start looking for new people to add to your social circle. Use the internet. If there are hobby shops in your area, see if they have a bulletin board you can put something up on. Start finding people who are looking for the same things in gaming that you are.
The first red flag for me about your current group was the mention of drinking. I've got nothing against it. I do it myself on occasion. But you start to mix drinking in with gaming and, in my experience, it's not gaming anymore.
A second group, formed by a high school friend, started up at one point and one friend invited his "gamer" wife who invited her work friend. They were good people, but they started drinking almost immediately once the game started, and it very quickly ceased to be gaming.
This is fine for some groups, but if you aren't looking for that kind of get-together, then you need to take steps.
Drunk d&d is more drunk than anything else. It can be fun, but it doesn't tend to have a long campaign arc, more like one shots. And vodka shots.
The drinking in and of itself may or may not be a problem; the theme of the campaign needs to be addressed. You told everyone before hand that you wanted to run a good, heroic group. Now I have to say if they don't want to play that sort of campaign, they shouldn't have to - but they should have addressed that ahead of time. It's crappy for them to agree to be "good guys" then just be mercenaries out for themselves.
As far as complaining about how much wealth they get -- that's just ridiculous. I feel comfortable taking a much harder line against those sorts of things. Tell them not to re-roll and they won't have to worry about how much money they get to start with.
And the idea that NPC's shouldn't be more powerful than them is absurd. If that were the case, they'd be able to rule the world if they felt like it. And they won't mind spellcasters casting higher level spells than them the first time they need a raise dead cast.
Yeah. I laughed out loud when I read 'lets all be good' and then immediately wound up with the CN and LN guys... But its undeniably true that in order to have a successful campaign that everyone enjoys and puts aside time to play in must be one that everyone's on board with and eager to be in.
Entrepreneurs and mercenaries do not want kingmaker, so if they knew kingmaker was happening and still chose to be entrepreneurs and mercenaries then they're essentially sending the message 'run something else'...
Wouldnt be a total loss necessarily. The truth of it is that players should always have the freedom to jump off the rails and do thier own thing. It can be a challenging bit of fun for the gm to find interesting ways for an adventure path to still play out when the party is doing anything but...
So the players didnt rise to the occasion. Some 'other party' did what the party was supposed to do, and now that's having an effect on the party. The party does nothing about it and we're off to book 2 of the adventure path, where other more important things are happening to some 'other party' thats gaining power and prestige, and does THAT have any effect on the party.
Suddenly someone is cordoning off the area as part of a kingdom and starts taxing the players or trying to recruit the adventurers to do some part of the adventure path for him, or they accidentally run into an official encounter already in progress between the 'phantom party' who are doing what they should and the actual party of misfit toys.... or simply that the new king doesnt like all this entrepreneuring going on in his kingdom unchecked and tries driving the party to places they dont want to go.
That might be biting off more than some gms are willing to chew, but it can still be fun to try it.
Failing that, its either time for a sandbox, skulls and shackles, or the new baba yaga adventure path where
Underlining several problems, as in the ones I mentioned above, was just part of my problem. There were a lot of other problems that just got to me, and I've decided not to mention every bit of it. My fiance still has her character from the start of the game, and all the rewards have fallen into her lap, but it will never be the kingmaker game, so I've made her a noble, and kept it at that.
All in all, a lot has gone on, and I rolled with the metaphysical slap to the face when they abandoned the first ark of story. Now, as I play the scenarios of what a lot of you are saying for me to do to keep this game running, I fear for the worst, even if they are GOOD ideas for the game, and to give it flavor, but I have that horrible feeling that if they ever get one upped in anything, my troublesome players are going to go right into "DM vs Player" mode. I would love to do a one up, but I don't even think I could do an anti-party group with these guys without them feeling like I'm plotting against them, as the players.
This is going to be a painful situation, so, I'll have to see how next session goes. If they want to explore, I'll pull out the randomly determined terrain rules from the Ultimate Campaign, and take them off the literal map, and have them sandbox it all. More work for me, but it'll let them have more control, I think.
To all of you so far, thank you for the support and ideas. The advice is not going to go to waste, even if I can't use it on this group. Someday, I'll have that perfect group again, where they want to see what encounters and story they stumble into. Or who knows, maybe they'll pull their heads out of that dark, scary place behind them, and this will turn into my best group yet!
Yeah, doesn't sound likely to me too, on that last part, either. But, hey, we can dream, right?
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You can dream. And you can fight as well.
I was pissed off when my first player quited. Second time, I was angry only. Third time, I was sad but happy that I shared his time with me.
My point is that you have to be ready for worst. Don't fear it. Accept it. Your players are probably subconsciously aware of that maybe.
There is another option, though it's probably the least-good of the lot and is most likely to annoy people.
The three PCs who are actually, y'know, adventurers could simply ditch the other two, in-character. They seem useless, unreliable, destructive, and self-absorbed; it would be completely in-character to let them get blitzed (or even encourage it) and then simply leave without telling them.
In-character, I cannot imagine how they are not thinking 'WHY are we hanging around with these twits again?'
It sounds like you are a GMing a game that has not captured the interest and enthusiasm of all of your players.
With my beloved group of scamps in my home game, for example, I would not touch the Wrath of the Righteous AP with a ten foot pole. My group just has a bit too much "neutral" in them to play an AP with an inherently "good" leaning for the PCs.
Skull & Shackles, however, fit my group like a glove.
This is not a knock on the RotW AP or my group of players at all, in any way -- Pathfinder is a game and games are meant to be fun, with my crew having the most fun when they're sorrrrrrrta kinnnnda good in the long run, but also sort of terrible awful people in the process of getting there.
I've had players walk out on me before, but from the responses I've received from other players I've come to understand that sometime it's not really my fault, it's bound to happen eventually.
One way I might suggest you handle these "mercenary and entrepreneurs" is to let them be just that for a while, guide them by the nose, let them explore, and keep dropping your subtle hints. Perhaps they start taking a job from a not-particularly-reputable man, and then when they finally do the job to end all jobs, they come back for no pay, and he stiffs them. In this case, you'd have to be careful to avoid the one-upmanship of having it be some strongman to really give the party a challenge (though any party who can't handle the occasional BBEG baffles me), and instead simply make it so that they are bogged down by his henchmen, and manages an escape. This might (MIGHT) avoid hurt feelings of being one-upped by an NPC, and more accurately say they were out-witted. These types of players would more than likely seek revenge on this person, and that may end up leading them places they didn't expect.
Well, Lamontius, the problem started up when four of five players rerolled, I understood for the new girl, but they chose to be the treasure hunters, and chose to go into this ruined and devastated land. They were elated to go into this broken area of the world to treasure hunt, and intentionally forced me to make the game a treasure hunter game. They ran into some of the ghosts, haunts, and know there are areas where old temples were to explore and loot. When they found out they'd have to work to get the treasure, they abandoned it, ran from it, like the did all the other plot hooks, and story lines that would lead them to more treasure.
At this time, their idea of treasure hunting is, they go to take a dump in the woods, and I'm supposed to roll treasure to see what they expelled from their bowls. No fights, no trouble, no events, just plot an area of land, and roll loot for them. That is literally what a sit down talk has given me.
The vein on the side of my head is throbbing. If they wanted this kind of game, they should pick up a 4th edition DnD book, and open to the page of "solo adventure" and play by themselves.
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It seems you are fighting an uphill battle and at least 3 of your players want something else. How does your significant other think about the game? Is it fun for her as a game, or just as a social event?
Have you considered to reduce the size of the group?
How experienced are your troublesome players, could they take the GM seat to give you some respite and them a chance to change their outlook ?
The other posters have already given you a mountain of good advice, but I would like to add one thing:
If it isn't fun now, chances aren't great, that it will change in the future. There are plenty of other things you could do with your time, and if it has to be pathfinder, search for an online group or some other alternative.
Move the story along if the two trouble making drunks don't show up, as your story grows in game they gain a reputation as heroes and the other two lackeys. But talk to them out of game and ban the beer if they argue with you tell them your out of my game nothing personal. I ha dto do this a couple of times. Place notices at your local game store that you are looking for player in your game. Hope you listen to everyone that posted, good luck to you.
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with the interested charactors, you can still have a good kingmaker game withouth the kingdom building aspect. my current kingmaker group declined to use the kingdom building aspect. just made room for me to be creative with the new lands myself. And you may end up suprised at times. my mostly nuetral treasure hunting party managed to make allies of several groups encountered in the AP.
/spoiler
such as the kobold tribe, my substitute for the crazy potion maker, ect.
I don't get it. I am actually playing Kingmaker campaign later on the day and the entire reason for doing so was the fact that there will be a chance of becoming plotting noble's in a new upcoming kingdom, with a chance of actually becomming the king myself.
I made a Aasimar Paladin for this purpose (both the GM and I were curious about this race) and made sure that I have an extremely high diplomacy +11 at level 1 (+3 classkill, +1 rank, +4 cha bonus, +2 racial bonus and +1 diplomacy from house orlovski).
I am so hoping to reach the point where the Ruling part of the land begins as this was the main reasom we began this adventure.
And btw the kickass diplomacy at level 1 really helped avoid some trouble, even though the trapdoor-spider was not ready for reason. Nothing a paired readied action didn't fix though ;)