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Psion-Psycho wrote:This person is a first time GM. I agree that it's best to tell people in advance what is restricted, but in this instance he just didn't know to do this upfront. I would allow the character to rebuild if desired, but at level 3 I doubt there is much to change around. It's not as though HellCat Stealth takes much investment, and he's a rogue so the stealth still isn't a waste.Claxon wrote:I do agree that the DM is in there right to restrict what ever they want. Though those restrictions should always be stated before actual character creation. I have restricted some books in my games simply because i do not agree with a lot of the things that are in there, ultimate combat being the primary example, but those restrictions are announced to all the players before the game even started to those in a whole. If you impose a "x" thing is not allowed and it is on there list of stuff they wanted to do then you should allow them a redo of there character since they did not get the full info of rules for the game. Some things being disallowed, especially in the middle of game, can make an entire character concept null in void.As a GM you're perfectly within your right to ban Hellcat Stealth, I would and did from my games but I did so by banning things not from the the main Pathfinder rulebooks and Hellcat Stealth is from The Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils.
Outside of that there is nothing to worry about here.
Agreed but he might be the type, like my self, that plans character feat for feat until endgame and when to pick it up. Most builds of mine, dont know about the player in question, are dependent on x feat at x level. An intimidation build for example of mine relies heavily on the feat that allows you to add str on top of cha for intimidation check. If i lost that feat id have to seriously re think the character and re vise my stats to compensate.

MrMagpie |
The usual defense against sniping and kiting is via held actions. You can also use area effects like glitterdust and the like to paint your targets. If he's trying the sniper's game alone without the rest of the party around, I suggest pulling no punches.
Yes, I've decided to discuss the nature of the game with my players, while trying not to break too much immersion, I am inclined to let him have his fun and see how he responds. He's gotten a bit arrogant now that he thinks he's on to a winning ticket but if he goes so far as to exclude the other players and tries making it a one man show, he's dead (to say the least). I don't really think it will get to that point since he's a team player at heart, but he might definitely try some crazy tactics (those are his hallmark) as they make him feel extra clever. I definitely get the feeling he already lost respect for the combat encounters of the campaign (including the Big Bad), which is what probably worries me the most, as he might infect the others with this attitude.

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Psion-Psycho wrote:Why ultimate combat?Claxon wrote:I do agree that the DM is in there right to restrict what ever they want. Though those restrictions should always be stated before actual character creation. I have restricted some books in my games simply because i do not agree with a lot of the things that are in there, ultimate combat being the primary example, but those restrictions are announced to all the players before the game even started to those in a whole. If you impose a "x" thing is not allowed and it is on there list of stuff they wanted to do then you should allow them a redo of there character since they did not get the full info of rules for the game. Some things being disallowed, especially in the middle of game, can make an entire character concept null in void.As a GM you're perfectly within your right to ban Hellcat Stealth, I would and did from my games but I did so by banning things not from the the main Pathfinder rulebooks and Hellcat Stealth is from The Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils.
Outside of that there is nothing to worry about here.
There is quite a bit of feats in the book that dont seem play tested or at least needed to be play tested more. A feat that comes to mind off the top of my head is Two-Weapon Feint and its improved version. That feat alone makes Improved/Greater Feint pretty much worthless for those that would normally feint in combat. Now if they imposed a feat tax of needing Improved Feint to qualify then i would have no qualms with it.

Slime |

Just out of curiosity, how does he handle the "no darkvision/no low-light vision" problem? It's really hard to stealth when you need a light source and the bad guys don't.
I was just going to include this in my list of things to consider:
- Make Perception rolls for each individual ennemies and if one spots him (numbers will help) he yells it out to everybody: "speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn".o now everyone know in what square he is.
- Concealment can be used by the enemies (no sneak).
- Don't forget his move is 20' so being taken in melee by medium humanoid delaying should'nt be impossible...
- Combat maneuvers used in delay (before he shoots), since he has a bow (?) he won't get an AoO against a Grapple, Trip, Disarm or (ouch!) Sunder. Halfling rogues usualy don't get such a good CMD.
- COUNT HIS AMMO! It may seem ridiculous but at lower levels it makes big differences.
- Don't forget to apply the -4att. if the target is in melee with an ally AND the possible cover (another -4att.) the ally gives the shooter.
-If he isn't seen at all by the ennemies then have them focus there attacks on the seemingly weaker members of the party and use them as cover from him. It's not super-tactic, it's just defensive

Lumiere Dawnbringer |

it happens to be a defensive self preservation tactic of a rather selfish nature.
to guarantee your own survival. you lessen that of your allies.
your allies will complain when the rogue is playing coward, mostly because more enemies are focusing on the casters.
because the casters have less overall protection, the increased focus on the casters, is enough to make the party upset about the selfish halfling.
the halfling's selfish survival tactic will be known by the party quite well, and who really wants to adventure with a coward who won't take an arrow for a comerade?

DrDeth |

As a GM you're perfectly within your right to ban Hellcat Stealth, I would and did from my games but I did so by banning things not from the the main Pathfinder rulebooks and Hellcat Stealth is from The Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils.
Outside of that there is nothing to worry about here.
Edit:
As a general suggestion for you as a new GM tell you players they may only use the following books:
Core Rulebook
Advanced Players Guide
Advanced Race Guide – without Race Builder
Ultimate Magic
Ultimate Combat
Ultimate EquipmentDon't allow stuff outside of that, there's a lot of stuff available that can be combined in "overpowered" ways. Also, a GM needs to be familiar with any sources his/her players will being using, and you can't be expected to know every source. If you are familiar with the above you're good.
Well, I'd limit it to:
Core RulebookAdvanced Players Guide
to start. Then add more.

Insufferable Smartypants |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have a situation that I need advice on, and I'd be most grateful if one of your Pathfinder/D&D veterans can supply said advice.(1)
...Halfling Rogue with optimized levels of Stealth ... after his Halfling Wizard was killed to ensure that it doesn't happen again. (2)
His typical strategy involves either beginning every encounter already in Stealth, or stealthing as soon as the opportunity presents itself - he's never far from cover, and he prefers to spend as much time as possible in trees or bushes. (3)
He then starts sniping every enemy in range, repositioning himself through cover as necessary. He took the alternate Racial trait that Halflings have available, "Swift as Shadows", which lets him reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving by 5, and the Stealth check penalty for sniping by 10 (4)
Thanks to his optimized Stealth skill, CR appropriate enemies have little chance to detect him even as he pokes them full of arrows (he essentially has to roll close to a 1 for enemies to spot him) (5), and he argues that since the enemies haven't spotted him, they shouldn't get their Dex bonus to AC versus his attacks, and therefore he should also be able to get his Sneak Attack bonus every round. (6)
... intentions to take even more Stealth related items and feats - for example, he plans on taking "Hellcat Stealth" - or a level of Shadowdancer - so he can enter Stealth even while directly observed (7), and he plans on making use of Invisibility spells and effects as well to make himself even harder to detect. (8)
I'm doing my best to be reasonable and understanding, but I fear his powergaming tactics are taking a lot out of the game, as the player of a character that virtually can't be detected is unlikely to be threatened by anything short of some rather contrived situations, such as having every enemy spellcaster come equipped with Glitterdust, or having a dragon burn half the forest down to get him out of his hidey-hole (and even then, he has Evasion!).
Am I misinterpreting the rules and letting him get away with murder(usually literally)(9)? Or is he right in apparently believing that Stealth at extreme levels really does equal near invincibility?(10) I told him that I need to take his character under advisement, but I can't seem to be able to find a satisfactory, and fair, solution thus far. Or am I merely blowing things way out of proportion, and a nigh-undetectable Rogue isn't really that big of a deal in the long run?
Any sage advice will be most appreciated, and I would like to thank you all for reading through this post and taking the time to answer!
1) Longtime DM here of many years and have had an unfortunate turnover of many players due to deployment conflicts (was in the service for part of my DMing career). What I'm getting at is I've seen a whole lot of players as some come on and off deployment, and every player brings his own baggage.
2) Sounds reasonable. Sometimes losing a character stings.
3) I'm going to ask a question here because the devil might be in the details. I can't tell if you're exaggerating or not. Do you mean that he begins every *combat* encounter stealthed? Or virtually every RP, trap, hazard, and combat encounter? Does he hide under a table at the local bar? Does he stealth in the market square in the center of town? If it sounds like I'm trying to be funny, I'm asking honestly here.
Now, if he's starting every combat encounter already stealthed, why are you letting him get away with this? Why is the party tolerating this guy trying to hide from them?
If he is actually stealthing all the time, I would probably have a private talk with him and ask him why his character is an insane person. I would explain to him that unless he's specifically trying to roleplay a character with advanced paranoia, he should stop hiding while the party is camping for the night. If that doesn't sink in and the behavior continues, I would probably take further measures. Maybe dock him XP. Maybe something more peer-related. NPC's will slowly begin to avoid him because they're beginning to doubt his stability. Maybe people start to think that he's dangerous. It doesn't have to be a mob with pitchforks and torches - that is... unless he really does do something crazy.
4) Let me stop you there. He's highly skilled at hiding. Got it.
5) I can help you here. There's no way to sugarcoat this. He's wrong, and you've been letting him get away with it. It sounds like you both have studied the rules of stealth as they're written and are reading them to the letter while missing a couple of gems that favor you and screw your halfling buddy.
Stealth is *not* invisibility. Stealth is concealment. In fact, if you end your turn out of concealment you are no longer considered to be hiding. I'm sure you already know this too - I'm more stating this for emphasis and for the inevitable post by somebody in the peanut gallery.
This is important: If you are being observed *in any way*, you are not hidden. It doesn't matter what he rolls if you let him roll his stealth skill. Barring special feats to the contrary, if eyes (ears or nose either) are on him, his stealth roll won't change that.
I'm going to make an example here of just your halfling rogue and an encounter, and I'm going to structure it as if the rest of the part does not exist so that nobody is distracted.
Your halfling begins a combat encounter stealthed against 18 orcs. Since he is hidden, and the rest of the party does not exist in this encounter, the orcs are blissfully unaware of him. He can snipe one of them for standard unmodified damage, or he can attempt to close to within 30 feet for a sneak attack (sneak attacks at range are normally limited to a maximum of 30 feet).
Now, regardless of how many attacks he makes or how many orcs he kills in his opening volley, I'm going to bet that he didn't get them all, and here is where it gets interesting for you.
This isn't the PC game of Skyrim, where you can fire an arrow at somebody and then 30 seconds later they forget about it and go back to their routine. He just shot (and maybe killed) one of these orcs. The other 17 of them are now aware that there is an archer around here somewhere. They also are not stupid. They get behind cover and start watching for movement. If they have missile weapons available, some of them will ready them and wait for an opportunity to shoot at their attacker. If he takes a 2nd shot, their cover grants them all an additional +4 AC. If they have a defensive caster, that caster starts casting abjuration spells to buff everybody's defenses.
Now if things stay as they are, your halfling has to beat about 17 perception checks per round just to maintain the status quo, and he won't be able to do this for long because each hobgoblin has a 5% flat chance to spot him on a natural 20 - but this almost doesn't matter anymore, because I've yet to meet a player that will just stay hidden round after round and won't try to take another shot or action of some kind.
Back to what I said above. Stealth is much less powerful than you're both giving it credit for. Stealth isn't invisibility, it's *concealment.* He didn't turn dark or transparent, like you see in a computer game. He's just ducked down behind a trash can or a light pole. It doesn't matter if he rolled a 15 to hide, or a 150 to hide. The stealth roll vs perception check doesn't determine degrees of success or failure - it determines only success or failure. Failed a check? The hobgoblin didn't see where he shot from this round. He still knows that the arrow came from somewhere, and if he witnessed the hit he even knows from what direction.
What is concealment? Well, by the rules... it's a 20% miss chance. That's it. Once they know he's out there, his huge stealth advantage is pretty much used up. Now they're trying to figure out where exactly he is. All they need to do is figure out where he *could* be or wait for him to peek out at them again. Obviously you're not playing in dense jungle, because if you were you'd be giving your hobgoblins cover bonuses and concealment of their own. How many possible hiding spots are available? And here's where you look at how you've been designing your maps. Are you granting too many hidey-holes?
If the Hobgoblins note that they can see everything but behind the rock to the left, the tree straight ahead, and the shrub to the right, guess what 17 pairs of eyes are now studying intently. Now that they know they're under attack, nobody's going to fail to notice somebody popping his head and bow out to take another shot. That rule of maintaining stealth exists to give him the chance to evade and escape - not to continue an assault with impunity. Basically, the stealth skill is what you use when they *are not* looking for you - and you use it to avoid arousing suspicion. Hobgoblins certainly understand ambushes and can react appropriately.
From the Stealth Check description: "If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth." and "you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind."
So if 34 hobgoblin ears are straining to hear movement and 34 eyes are watching all possible hiding places, the player cannot use stealth! What he can do is sit there quietly and maintain his concealment. If he pops out from concealment to make another attack while being observed, it doesn't matter what he rolls, the hobgoblins will see him.
Now your hobgoblins have some options available. They can send out a few hobs to investigate the rock, the tree, and the shrub one by one, knowing that if anything tries to sneak away it will certainly be seen. As soon as the hobgoblins have gotten around the object concealing him, they will see him. If the group advancing is sufficiently large, they can surround the halfling and that'll pretty much be that, so lets examine another option and say that they all stayed behind and readied crossbows and javelins.
With 17 hobs, you can easily designate 2 hobs to watch each hiding spot (out of the 3 in the example) while the other 11 choose one location and bombard it with missile fire. They don't have to actually see the halfling in order to hit him, and he'd better hope that crossbows and javelins are all they're packing. Being military types, they might have access to flasks of oil or greek fire, or hostile potions or poisons. Whatever the mode of their attack, they will attack normally.
Hopefully, the halfling thought ahead and chose either the rock or the tree to use as his hiding spot, because a bush isn't going to grant him a cover bonus. Such concealment gives him a flat 20% miss chance. If you feel like being very generous, you can rule that it's a big, dense bush he's hiding in and grant him total cover for a 50% miss chance, you old softy.
Now, the rock or the tree would be better options. Both of them will give him a flat +4 AC bonus due to cover.
Sorry for how long number 5 was. I will be brief from here on out.
(6) It stands to reason that with the distraction of an entire group of adventurers, he might remain unobserved for several rounds before somebody sees him - remember, his hide rolls no longer really matter once they're actively looking for a hidden archer. Until then, If he's within 30 feet he can sneak attack at range.
(7) Ever play hide and seek? Nobody "enters stealth." You hide. If you don't have a good hiding spot, you're seen. Even a man wearing a ghillie suit is pretty clearly visible once he's been identified. The stealth skill is what you use when the enemy is NOT looking for you.
That hide-in-plain-sight skill is pretty much the ninjas trick you see in movies. Sure, it looks like the ninja dissapeared, but when the camera pans up he's always straining against two beams on the ceiling, hoping that somebody moves on before his arms give out.
(8) I think this is actually a good thing. Invisibility seems easier to adjucate, and hiding while invisible has got to be more effective.
(9) Yes. You are misinterpretting the rules, and so is he.
(10) No. Stealth equals concealment. Stealth rolls of 10 are the same as stealth rolls of 1,000, as long as nobody saw (or heard) you roll. 20% miss chance.
Okay, enough bulletins. Let's put this into perspective. One guy playing a relatively low-power class, specializes in not being seen and then uses those skills to not be seen. All in all, this could be way worse. He could have played a sorcerer and be nuking the crap out of your encounters, or he could be wading through your enemies and whirlwind attacking from within their lines.
Remember that while he's off hiding, things are happening in the group that he isn't a part of. He might miss important conversations in the group. He will fail to see actions that he might wish he had (like if the fighter pockets the occational potion off the fallen enemies after a battle). Enemies that don't see him will focus their attacks on the rest of the group, which means damage he isn't taking is adding to everybody else's burden. Focus fire on the mage or the healer a few times when it will really inconvenience the party and you might have your own players yanking him out of his hidey-hole.
If he's always hiding, treat him like he's hiding. Turn to the other players more often, and him a bit less. Have NPC's fail to address him. Try to remind him that his character is being... well, weird, and remind him of it through gameplay.
I really hope that this helps you with your situation.

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Now if things stay as they are, your halfling has to beat about 17 perception checks per round just to maintain the status quo, and he won't be able to do this for long because each hobgoblin has a 5% flat chance to spot him on a natural 20
Incorrect.
Skills do not autosucced on a nat 20. This is why you can take 10 or take 20 with skills. Otherwise on a 5% chance, I can see into the enemy's lair and count how many goblins there is.
From the Stealth Check description: "If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth." and "you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind."
So if 34 hobgoblin ears are straining to hear movement and 34 eyes are watching all possible hiding places, the player cannot use stealth! What he can do is sit there quietly and maintain his concealment. If he pops out from concealment to make another attack while being observed, it doesn't matter what he rolls, the hobgoblins will see him.
If you wanted to get this rules lawery on this..
The player is observing himself. Therefor the player cannot hide. Ever.
Insects are observing the player. The player cannot hide.
Micro-organisms are observing the player. The player cannot hide.
But that only serves to make the player really fricken hate you, and absolutely positively makes sure they pick up HIPS.

Hakka Tsadok |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

As a person who has actually played a similar character (I played a Ninja instead of a Rogue) let me preface this by saying:
Yes. This type of build is extremely potent at low levels. However, after level 6 it starts to plateau. At that point, from level 7 onward, creatures start having decent natural armor, they have spell-like and supernatural abilities that can make stealthing extremely difficult (though extremely rare) slowly start to become common.
Stick this out, it won't be terrible forever. And while he might be seen as something of invulnerable, well...its not hard to beat stealth. Most monsters have full ranks (and a good number have Skill Focus: Perception as well).
Unless other players are being overshadowed by this halfling, then let him have his fun. It could be worse...he could be have gone the two-weapon fighting route.

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Let me start off by saying I am in agreement with most of the others here stating that The character who is no doubt well built, is not overpowered. Currently at level 3 a stealth of 20+ is amazing. Something the best peasant thieves could probably never hope to achieve. And he seems to be using it to great effect, which is awesome. But as others have said, this type of character will eventually plateau in power, and nickel/dimming will become a non-issue.
Currently the character is doing 1d4+2d6+1+str (Assuming within 30 feet AND composite STR Shortbow for Small Character). Average of 11.5 DPR with +1 STR Bonus, which is nothing to sneeze at at that level. But a 2hd fighter or barbarian would be doing more than that. A barbarian while raging would do 2d6+12 or 19 DPR with a great-sword and probably has a better chance to hit as well. So damage wise, the rogue is not obsurd... He is just accomplished.
Stealth wise, I am assuming 20 Dex:
3 (points) + 3 (Class Skill) + 5 (DEX) + 3(skill focus) + 1 (Size) + 5(cloak) = 20
Not sure what his feats are. But he only has 2 at that level, so it would have to be Skill focus + Point Blank Shot? Does he have Precise Shot? If not, he takes a -4 for firing into melee. Later on he could take Stealthy for another +2.
So we see that he is optimized as much as a rogue can be, but he is still not the pinnacle of either damage or stealth. So he is not overpowered in either regards.
Lets turn to your tactics:
Are you giving him sneak attack damage beyond 30 feet? Dem not be the rules
Are you throwing creatures immune to sneak attack at him? Elementals are a great choice at that level. A band of 4 small earth elementals or 2 medium earth elementals. Try finding creatures with DR/not what the rogue is using. If you can negate the damage from the initial attack, you negate the sneak and the rogue is forced to attack a different target.
Are you using spells which provide cover? Fog cloud, and the like are great obstacles against archers.
Are you building NPCs with a high perception? Lets say a Half-Elf Druid 2/Monk 1 with 20 WIS, 3 (class) + 3 (points) + 5(WIS) + 3 (skill focus) + 2(alertness) +2(Keen Senses) + 5 (Eyes of the Eagle) = 23 Perception. Take Deflect Missiles as your Bonus feat for Monk. Summoning Spells and an animal companion. This guy would be a challenge.
Are you using creatures that have uncanny dodge? Maybe they find a band of lvl2 barbarians (party size +1d4 for a challenge), that would be a fun encounter...
TLDR;
The character is not overpowered, just optimized for one tactic. Archery is one of the easiest tactics to fully negate. Sneak attack is another easily negated tactic. My advice would be to let him have his fun because later on when he fights creatures with true sight, a 40 stealth will put him on the same level as their perception checks.
Plus no BBEG should just stand there and take the hits, especially not on his own turf. If the Evil Necromancer at the end of the Adventure Tunnel killed the rest of the party and just stood there against the sniping rogue... That would just be silly.

Insufferable Smartypants |
Incorrect.
Skills do not autosucced on a nat 20. This is why you can take 10 or take 20 with skills. Otherwise on a 5% chance, I can see into the enemy's lair and count how many goblins there is.
You're taking the example beyond extreme to be silly, and the action of taking 20 assumes that you will fail many times before succeeding, which is why you cannot use the action if you're stressed, in danger, or pressed for time.
If you wanted to get this rules lawery on this..
The player is observing himself. Therefor the player cannot hide. Ever.
Insects are observing the player. The player cannot hide.
Micro-organisms are observing the player. The player cannot hide.
More of the same extreme sillyness, but if you want to use those examples, then you are correct: The player is not hidden from himself, from the insects, or from the micro-organisms.

MrMagpie |
Stealth wise, I am assuming 20 Dex:3 (points) + 3 (Class Skill) + 5 (DEX) + 3(skill focus) + 1 (Size) + 5(cloak) = 20
Not sure what his feats are. But he only has 2 at that level, so it would have to be Skill focus + Point Blank Shot? Does he have Precise Shot? If not, he takes a -4 for firing into melee. Later on he could take Stealthy for another +2.
Actually, being Small he gets a +4 to Stealth, not +1... His Stealth at this level breaks down like so:
3 (ranks) + 3 (class skill) + 5 (Dex) + 3 (Skill Focus) + 4 (Small Size) + 2 (Stealthy feat) + 5 (Cloak) = 25
This will only increase because at level 10 his Skill Focus bonus will be +6 and his Stealthy focus +4, and I'm sure he'll find other ways to increase it to insane proportions.
Most creatures and NPCs in the Kingmaker adventure path aren't really equipped to spot him, with some exceptions (Glitterdust equipped Wizards etc.)
And yes, he spends most of his time stealthed, usually in trees, especially while the party is camping at night (probably because his Wizard character died during a random night encounter... which was partially his fault because he assumed Rope Trick works the same way in Pathfinder as it did in 3.5 - most of his experience is with 3.5). In fact, he introduced his new character to the party by sneaking up to the fort where they were staying... the guards had no chance of spotting him, and neither did the players. Which leads me to believe that a CR appropriate encounter with NPC Rogues built like his character would be exceptionally unfair unless the players were specifically prepared for them.
There's been a lot of advice given on how to counter his character by designing NPCs and encounters with him in mind. If you ask me, this is tantamount to declaring war on the player - it's like if you made a fire specialized Sorcerer or whatever and suddenly monsters with fire resistance and immunity started springing up left and right for no good reason other than to disable you. You can do it a few times, sure, but after the 6th encounter with "Rogue hunter" NPCs it really will look like I have it in for him. You can argue that he started it by creating a character too optimized to be fair for the adventure as written, and thereby escalating the game, but I'm running a friendly adventure with a fair element of risk - not an old school no-holds-barred character meatgrinder in which players and GMs compete to outdo each other in rules lawyering and minmaxing.

Zog of Deadwood |

A few points:
1st, you said you're playing Kingmaker. A lot of animal opponents in Kingmaker. Many animals have the Scent ability. Not only does Scent add +8 to many Perception checks within 30', it autodetects presence (not location) for free, no action required. Then if the creature takes a move action, it automatically determines direction, no roll required. So the wolf or whatever KNOWS that there is a halfling somewhere between 10' and 30' in that direction (within 5', Scent autolocates for free with no check or action required). This takes some of the advantage of high Stealth away.
2nd, some creatures just can't be sneak attacked in most situations: elementals, things with tremorsense (I remember at least a couple nastybads with tremorsense in that AP.
3rd, when you're on the plains, unless the grass is pretty high, there's nowhere to hide.
4th, what's he going to do at night? He can't sneak attack farther than 30', but creatures with darkvision are not so limited. Even worse, he cannot sneak attack creatures that have ANY level of concealment, such as from poor lighting, which means unless he is attacking something within a light source, no sneak attack for him.
5th, even if none of the above were true, he's just not that scary. A fighter or ranger or barbarian will easily out-damage him. And this guy isn't providing flanking bonuses and won't get attacks of opportunity. He's a one-trick pony whose trick is kinda cute for him, but weakens the defense of the group as a whole unless there are no squishy wizards or sorcerers to divert enemy attacks from.

MrMagpie |
A few points:
1st, you said you're playing Kingmaker. A lot of animal opponents in Kingmaker.
This is precisely why he spends so much time in trees. If that wolf/grizzly/whatever can't reach you, he can't attack you, right?
2nd, some creatures just can't be sneak attacked: elementals, things with tremorsense (I remember at least a couple nastybads with tremorsense in that AP.
True, there are some creatures like that, but there's even more NPCs which *would* be scary if only they could spot him... Too bad they can't.
3rd, when you're on the plains, unless the grass is pretty high, there's nowhere to hide.
I guess it's a good thing he's a Halfling, then... they can hide in knee-high grass no problem! And of course, that's why he wants Hellcat Stealth and such.
4th, what's he going to do at night? He can't sneak attack farther than 30', but creatures with darkvision are not so limited. Even worse, he cannot sneak attack creatures that have ANY level of concealment, such as from poor lighting, which means unless he is attacking something within a light source, no sneak attack for him.
He's gonna be making alchemical items to mitigate some of those problems, and he also has a Rogue talent that lets him ignore regular concealment for the purpose of sneak attacking (Sniper's Eye).
5th, even if none of the above were true, he's just not that scary. A fighter or ranger or barbarian will easily out-damage him. And this guy isn't providing flanking bonuses and won't get attacks of opportunity. He's a one-trick pony whose trick is kinda cute for him, but weakens the defense of the group as a whole unless there are no squishy wizards or sorcerers to divert enemy attacks from.
But it's not really about absolute damage, even though a lot of people here get hung up on it ("A well specced out Fighter deals way more damage" etc.). It's about challenge, on a personal level. Right now he's comfortable knowing that no matter what happens, the rest of the group will probably snuff it long before anyone manages to find him, so he can afford to be arrogant and unreasonably confident. I don't like it when my players feel that comfortable just because they've minmaxed their character with metagaming knowledge of the Bestiary books in mind and the knowledge that I probably won't resort to similarly "cheap" tactics to deal with them. We have an unspoken agreement in place - you don't screw with me and my game, and I won't screw with you and your characters. But he's getting perilously close to breaking that agreement, if you ask me.

rayous brightblade |
Just a note, wolves can climb trees. Google dog climbing tree for many examples. The dew claw (which we tend to get rid of in pounds/etc) is very helpful in this. Grizzly bears can too...in fact, if they don't have hooves they can climb (and sometimes those with hooves can too such as those silly tree goats).

Uncertainty Lich |

- Don't forget to apply the -4att. if the target is in melee with an ally AND the possible cover (another -4att.) the ally gives the shooter.
^ That.
Archery is a pain to pull off without investing in it. It kinda sounds like this PC put most of his feats into being better at stealthing. That will probably cripple him very shortly, if you're ruling ranged combat correctly. Being great at hiding won't help him hit. -8 to hit really sucks and all it takes is a tree or ally in the way to ruin this sniper's day.
I'm not sure about the whole losing DEX to AC each round for the SA either. I've always been under the assumption stealth is useless after the first full combat. I could be wrong, but after NPCs act they aren't flatfooted, I don't know if SA can be used there because I don't think stealth itself bestowes flatfooted. Again, I could be wrong.
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
I'd also keep an eye on this. I could be wrong, but I don't think he can pull off all that full attack awesomeness archers aim for. Compared to other archers, I don't think this one is that OP.

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I apologize if you felt like my combat suggestions were designed to specifically counter the player while not being able to challenge the rest of the group. I would also like to apologize if you felt like the suggested encounters seemed out of place in the wilderness. I felt they would provide a challenge for the whole group even if they couldn't spot the player. If he is up in a tree, fire elementals could burn down the forest with ease. You are the GM, not the kingmaker AP; design your encounters so they are a challenge for all your players if that is your major concern.
If you feel like the player needs to feel close to death, do it with things that ignore stealth until the monsters perception starts to catch up. Traps are great, assuming he is the lead scout. Spell effects cast on an area which don't target Reflex (permanent color spray cast in a doorway to a hidden tomb or something), no hiding from those. But these are just more suggestions to counter the guys stealth.
If you want to blindly follow the AP encounters, which are aimed at a non-optimized 15 point-buy party of 4, he will continue to be "unchallenged". But as others and I have said, he is not Overpowered. In combat he is little more than a nuisance in comparison to other well-built characters. If you feel otherwise, wait 3 more levels.

thejeff |
At 3rd level full attack isn't that necessary, unless he's also taken Rapid Shot/Manyshot.
If I'm following correctly he's got Stealthy and SKill Focus, then Sniper's Eye for a Rogue talent, right?
So yes, there's no room there for any of the other archery boosting feats. -4 to anyone in melee. Another -4 for soft cover if anyone is in the way.
If he's only sniping on people distracted by the rest of the party, he'll do ok, though some will still make the Perception Check. With the -10 Sniping penalty, a +15 should be beatable.
If there are enemies unengaged and annoyed at him, have them go looking for him. Might not help much if he's in a tree, but if he's hiding behind something circling around him will spot him automatically.
And how does he get into that tree in the first place without being seen? In thick woods, no problem, though you'll want to make him make rolls if combat starts while he's on the ground.
By RAW, tall grass doesn't grant concealment. Undergrowth in forests does. If that's where you are, remember the targets have concealment too. -4 to hit.
Nor do I know of any rule that says Small creatures need anything different than medium ones for cover or concealment.
And there will be quite a few encounters inside, where concealment isn't as easy to find.

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1. Hunting beasts have already been brought up. Bear in mind that if a pack of dogs gathers around one tree, it's not unreasonable for the hunters to assume something invisible/well-hidden is in that tree and pincushion his space. (That's a tactic of desperation, though. There's a 50% miss chance for targeting something that they only believe is in the square. And the tree trunk may provide reduced cover, depending.)
2. Area-of-effects such as alchemist's fire can be amusing too, particularly on a direct hit: he's got the option of taking the ongoing fire damage or doing a "drop and roll" - an action that sanity (not necessarily the rules-as-written) would equate with 'leaving concealment'.
3. Held actions in conjunction with faerie fire or glitterdust can make returning to stealth impossible.
4. Immobilizing effects such as entangle or tanglefoot bags have their uses against snipers too, although they may not be effective once 'hide in plain sight' becomes available.

MrMagpie |
At 3rd level full attack isn't that necessary, unless he's also taken Rapid Shot/Manyshot.
If I'm following correctly he's got Stealthy and SKill Focus, then Sniper's Eye for a Rogue talent, right?
So yes, there's no room there for any of the other archery boosting feats. -4 to anyone in melee. Another -4 for soft cover if anyone is in the way.
Yes, that's his current choice of feats and talent. He does plan on adding Precise Shot later so he can negate that -4 to melee engaged targets, though.
In fact, I have his planned-out selection of feats right here... He might change them later, but here they are regardless:
Dodge, Disorienting Maneuver, Deadly Aim, Extra Rogue Talent, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Blind-Fight, Improved Blind-Fight, Greater Blind-Fight and Weapon Focus
Now, I'm sure he won't be able to take ALL of those feats, but that's what he indicated on his sheet as likely choices. He also seems to intend to craft smoke sticks, smoke pellets and such. I suspect he intends to use these to provide concealment to himself in the open while using the Blind Fight feats to Sneak Attack enemies.
As for those grass related rules, I know that real life snipers use tall grass for concealment all the time, so if the RAW indicate that you can't use it for that purpose, it kind of doesn't make sense. Especially if you're a small Halfling. As far as I know, concealment isn't the same as cover anyway, and it doesn't give you penalties to hit, only makes you roll a percentile die if you land a hit to see if you missed due to not being able to see your target well (or at all).

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Adventurers garner reputaitons. In Kingmaker this is probably more true as the adventurers become the leaders of the community. The bad guys WILL learn of this sniper halfling. They SHOULD employ counter snipers of their own to deal with him. This is not metagaming on the part of the DM but simply a tactic that long running adversaries would likely employ. Should every enemy they face have this knowledge and employ such tactics to thwart the sniper? Nope. But some will... and those will be the ones who really challenge him.
Oh, and one other point. Someone mentioned above about him acting cowardly. Being a sniper is not an act of cowardice. They often are alone and seperated from their units which makes them, if they are discovered, very vulnerable. They provide vital cover/assistance to small tactical units. They can change the course of an engagement. No where in their job description does it state that cowardice is a desired trait.

MrMagpie |
I apologize if you felt like my combat suggestions were designed to specifically counter the player while not being able to challenge the rest of the group. I would also like to apologize if you felt like the suggested encounters seemed out of place in the wilderness.
You don't need to apologize, I'm not looking to antagonize anyone here, and in spite of how it may seem, my only goal is to run a game that will actually be enjoyable and memorable for all my players. I'm not out to take vengeance against Halfling Rogue, I just want him to be suitably challenged instead of having his optimized stats ruining what would otherwise have been memorable boss encounters and epic fights. I've already had to adapt the AP to deal with some of their tactics which the Kingmaker designers didn't anticipate (but this is to be expected, as nobody can plan for everything), but I'm loath to do so unless it's absolutely necessary, as I don't feel I have the required experience to rewrite large sections of the AP to better challenge the party without either going overboard, messing up the rules or looking like I'm out for their blood.

Zog of Deadwood |

Zog of Deadwood wrote:This is precisely why he spends so much time in trees. If that wolf/grizzly/whatever can't reach you, he can't attack you, right?A few points:
1st, you said you're playing Kingmaker. A lot of animal opponents in Kingmaker.
He probably is not in those trees during the day. Unless he somehow has the brachiation ability, he couldn't keep up with the party going from treebranch to treebranch, especially with his slow movement speed. Climbing is slow, so he won't be doing it in battle. And if there are lots of trees around, it's not hard for creatures who know he's there (because they're intelligent and arrows are raining down from above or because they detected him via Scent and he attacks them from that direction) to put a tree trunk in between, granting them partial or total cover. If he's in a tree when the party is resting at night, fine. That'll work great some of the time, and sometimes will make him utterly useless, unless everyone else in the party is deliberately sleeping in a clump immediately underneath him AND their opponents close to melee range.
Incidentally, bears do climb trees. They're famous for it. Now, they probably won't while engaged with the rest of the party. However, if they are within 30' (thus allowing him to sneak attack), then as long as the wind is not blowing in the wrong direction he probably won't get more than one good sneak attack in on them. They'd know he was there, they'd know roughly in what direction he was (up and to the left), and that's really all you need to get a Dex bonus against a ranged attack. Versus a melee attack you have to be able to dodge the individual attacks of your opponents, but you don't dodge arrows--you just try to make yourself harder to hit by the guys shooting them in your direction from the directions you know about. People in a pitched battle aren't deprived of Dex from every archer they cannot see "over thataway", even though they might well be deprived of Dex from an archer who has managed to put himself in an unexpected position behind them. By the way, firing a bow from a tree is going to require an Acrobatics check each and every time (Balance) because your hands and arms are occupied while firing. Has he put ranks into that?
Zog of Deadwood wrote:True, there are some creatures like that, but there's even more NPCs which *would* be scary if only they could spot him... Too bad they can't.
2nd, some creatures just can't be sneak attacked: elementals, things with tremorsense (I remember at least a couple nastybads with tremorsense in that AP.
Yes. He has built a character completely around an often excellent defense. This makes him good at defense. But if he's not contributing that much to offense, well...
Zog of Deadwood wrote:I guess it's a good thing he's a Halfling, then... they can hide in knee-high grass no problem! And of course, that's why he wants Hellcat Stealth and such.
3rd, when you're on the plains, unless the grass is pretty high, there's nowhere to hide.
Sometimes the grass will be knee high and sometimes it won't. That's up to you. The AP does take place throughout the year. At certain times of year, there won't be that much grass. Also, don't forget that herd animals graze.
Zog of Deadwood wrote:He's gonna be making alchemical items to mitigate some of those problems, and he also has a Rogue talent that lets him ignore regular concealment for the purpose of sneak attacking (Sniper's Eye).
4th, what's he going to do at night? He can't sneak attack farther than 30', but creatures with darkvision are not so limited. Even worse, he cannot sneak attack creatures that have ANY level of concealment, such as from poor lighting, which means unless he is attacking something within a light source, no sneak attack for him.
I feel almost bad for this guy now. He's truly gimping himself. By attempting to maximize this one trick, he's taking away from the power of an already not overwhelming class.
Zog of Deadwood wrote:But it's not really about absolute damage, even though a lot of people here get hung up on it ("A well specced out Fighter deals way more damage" etc.). It's about challenge, on a personal level. Right now he's comfortable knowing that no matter what happens, the rest of the group will probably snuff it long before anyone manages to find him, so he can afford to be arrogant and unreasonably confident. I don't like it when my players feel that comfortable just because they've minmaxed their character with metagaming knowledge of the Bestiary books in mind and the knowledge that I probably won't resort to similarly "cheap" tactics to deal with them. We have an unspoken agreement in place - you don't screw with me and my game, and I won't screw with you and your characters. But he's getting perilously close to breaking that agreement, if you ask me....
5th, even if none of the above were true, he's just not that scary. A fighter or ranger or barbarian will easily out-damage him. And this guy isn't providing flanking bonuses and won't get attacks of opportunity. He's a one-trick pony whose trick is kinda cute for him, but weakens the defense of the group as a whole unless there are no squishy wizards or sorcerers to divert enemy attacks from.
Well, I guess. I just see a guy who has chosen to play a character whose main contribution will be relatively underwhelming damage in some, but not all combats. His speed means he won't be scouting ahead, unless everyone else is willing to move really, really slowly, and that is normally one of the big draws of high Stealth. It's not an urban campaign, which is where rogues really can shine with their trapfinding and social skills, and he hasn't built a melee rogue, which is what the party could probably use if he's playing a rogue at all. You may feel that he won't be challenged enough, but what is really wrong with this character is that he won't be adding enough to the rest of the party. When they hit 7th level, any one of the others could theoretically take Leadership and get a 5th level cohort who would be more useful for most purposes. He may not realize this now, but he's building himself into a trap here. This trick of his won't stay new and fresh and satisying forever, even if it works every time. And as stated up above, it won't.

Uncertainty Lich |

In fact, I have his planned-out selection of feats right here... He might change them later, but here they are regardless:
Dodge, Disorienting Maneuver, Deadly Aim, Extra Rogue Talent, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Blind-Fight, Improved Blind-Fight, Greater Blind-Fight and Weapon Focus
Now, I'm sure he won't be able to take ALL of those feats, but that's what he indicated on his sheet as likely choices.
But he's already level 3 and has delayed getting those important starting archery feats. That puts him behind the 8 ball compared to optimize archers.
He also seems to intend to craft smoke sticks, smoke pellets and such. I suspect he intends to use these to provide concealment to himself in the open while using the Blind Fight feats to Sneak Attack enemies.
I'm not sure about the ability to use SA like that. Is there a source that states firing from concealment removes the target's DEX bonus? I'm looking for one and I'm not finding it.

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Let's not get into the ethics of sniping, please! It has the potential to become another of those 700-post "how dare you question my ethics" threads that provide no help to the OP.
I said nothing regarding the ethics of the practice. The comment was made referencing a trait of character (cowardice). I was addressing that point.
You are, however, correct in that it does not add to the discussion at hand. I was simply making a brief asside and have no intention of gettin ginto a debate over the topic.
On Topic:
As others have stated he has taking feats/abilities to maxamize his stealth. This has left no room for feats which maxamize his ability with a bow. Thus he will have negatives for firing into melee. He is restricting himself to only firing one shot per round, if that, since regardless of whether or not he succeeds at his stealth ateempt after snping if he does not move and keeps firing from the same spot... seeing him or not enemies are going to converge on that location. Or they will sipmly withdraw to take cover from his fire.
To be effective he has to be mobile. Further interupting how many shots he can take while remaining stealthed.

voska66 |

I had an Inquisitor with a high dex and good stealth at 3rd level I had an 18 stealth with minor shadow armor and skill focus. The Character concept was focused around shadows and darkness. I had the night domain. Later picked up the Umbral Sorcerer using Eldrich Heritage and improved Eldrich Heritage for Darkvision. I took 4 levels of shadow dancer because it fit the story and it boosted my stealth but weakened my Inquisitor powers by more than what I gained.
It made an interesting character but nothing over powered. Just an expert in the shadows.

MrMagpie |
I'm not sure about the ability to use SA like that. Is there a source that states firing from concealment removes the target's DEX bonus? I'm looking for one and I'm not finding it.
I'm not sure about this myself, but the rules allow one to use concealment to enter Stealth, and he argues that as long as enemies don't know where he is and he's within 30 ft, he should get his Sneak Attack because enemies are denied their DEX bonus. If that's not how it works then his whole strategy is suspect because in that case he shouldn't be able to Sneak Attack at all except during the surprise round or something.
However, few people have called this into question here, so I assume that his interpretation of the rules is indeed correct. Zog argues that as long as enemies know ROUGHLY where you are (perhaps because they smell you, or perhaps because they have one of your arrows sticking out of their ass and pointing in your general direction), they shouldn't be denied DEX bonus against your attacks and therefore you can't Sneak Attack them anymore. I'm really not sure if that's how it's supposed to work, it does make sense... but Sneak Attack itself is such an abstract mechanic that it's hard to determine when it does or does not apply, common sense doesn't necessarily cut it.

Paladin of Baha-who? |

Don't forget classes/monsters with Uncanny Dodge and damage reduction -- feel free to rebuild opponents. If the AP gives you 4 level 3 fighters, replace them with 4 level 3 barbarians and they'll all have uncanny dodge and his sniping will be much less effective, but the overall power level of the encounter won't be changed too much.

Barry Armstrong |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

OP, first, let me say I understand this is your first time behind the DM seat. Let's school you up on a few things you need to know:
This situation is not munchkin. It is optimization, it is powergaming, etc...the difference? Munchkins do it at others' expense. So far, you've included nothing about him impacting the fun of other players, only your own frustration in not wanting to alter the content to cater to him.
There is nothing "WIN" about Super Stealth. There's two pages of suggestions here as to how to combat his one-trick pony. I won't repeat their advice, but I will recommend that you heed it.
Secondly, I respect that you want to stick to the printed Adventure Path (in your case, Kingmaker). However, a good DM tweaks everything to his players. If he's using a strategy that makes it harder for the monsters, it's your job to increase the CR to compensate. Give the monsters more hp, let the "lieutenants and above" see invis, give them deeper darkvision, etc...
Don't just stick to the printed Adventure Path and complain about optimized players being too OP for it. Part of what you owe to your players is to make everything "risky". Otherwise it's just not fun. Even for Super Stealth Halfling Boy. If there's no risk of death, there's no satisfaction of winning a scenario.
I am glad you've discussed progression with him, and his designs to take Hellcat Stealth and other stealth-centric stuff. Make sure he knows your concerns and limitations, and don't worry about him being a rules-lawyer.
The easiest way to combat rules lawyer players is to remind them of Rule 0 and Rule 1. Rule 0 is that all rules are optional if you say so. Rule 1 is that you, and only you, are the final rulebook interpretation authority for your campaign.

Zog of Deadwood |

Uncertainty Lich wrote:I'm not sure about the ability to use SA like that. Is there a source that states firing from concealment removes the target's DEX bonus? I'm looking for one and I'm not finding it.I'm not sure about this myself, but the rules allow one to use concealment to enter Stealth, and he argues that as long as enemies don't know where he is and he's within 30 ft, he should get his Sneak Attack because enemies are denied their DEX bonus. If that's not how it works then his whole strategy is suspect because in that case he shouldn't be able to Sneak Attack at all except during the surprise round or something.
However, few people have called this into question here, so I assume that his interpretation of the rules is indeed correct. Zog argues that as long as enemies know ROUGHLY where you are (perhaps because they smell you, or perhaps because they have one of your arrows sticking out of their ass and pointing in your general direction), they shouldn't be denied DEX bonus against your attacks and therefore you can't Sneak Attack them anymore. I'm really not sure if that's how it's supposed to work, it does make sense... but Sneak Attack itself is such an abstract mechanic that it's hard to determine when it does or does not apply, common sense doesn't necessarily cut it.
What your player appears to be arguing is that a successful Stealth roll automatically grants the Invisibility condition. If it does, then yes, the PC would not only gain a +2 bonus to hit but his opponents would lose their Dexterity bonuses, each and every time. However, except for a boss a character of mine encountered in Kingmaker in

MrMagpie |
OP, first, let me say I understand this is your first time behind the DM seat. Let's school you up on a few things you need to know:
This situation is not munchkin. It is optimization, it is powergaming, etc...the difference? Munchkins do it at others' expense. So far, you've included nothing about him impacting the fun of other players, only your own frustration in not wanting to alter the content to cater to him.
There is nothing "WIN" about Super Stealth. There's two pages of suggestions here as to how to combat his one-trick pony. I won't repeat their advice, but I will recommend that you heed it.
Secondly, I respect that you want to stick to the printed Adventure Path (in your case, Kingmaker). However, a good DM tweaks everything to his players. If he's using a strategy that makes it harder for the monsters, it's your job to increase the CR to compensate. Give the monsters more hp, let the "lieutenants and above" see invis, give them deeper darkvision, etc...
Don't just stick to the printed Adventure Path and complain about optimized players being too OP for it. Part of what you owe to your players is to make everything "risky". Otherwise it's just not fun. Even for Super Stealth Halfling Boy. If there's no risk of death, there's no satisfaction of winning a scenario.
I am glad you've discussed progression with him, and his designs to take Hellcat Stealth and other stealth-centric stuff. Make sure he knows your concerns and limitations, and don't worry about him being a rules-lawyer.
The easiest way to combat rules lawyer players is to remind them of Rule 0 and Rule 1. Rule 0 is that all rules are optional if you say so. Rule 1 is that you, and only you, are the final rulebook interpretation authority for your campaign.
I don't say that he's an outright munchkin, but he does have some munchkiny tendencies, obviously you don't know him so I can't persuade you of this, nor do I intend to. His tactics may well end up hurting the other players, however, especially if I follow your suggestions (and the suggestions of some others on this board) and beef up the encounters to compensate. The other players haven't optimized their characters, knowing that the AP isn't really meant for that kind of thing, so if I up the ante just to deal with this one player, I'm likely gonna be screwing over my other players which in no way deserved such treatment. And as I said before, I really dislike the idea of the GM and the players being locked in a war like that, especially an UNDECLARED war that you just spring on them in response to one optimizer. Maybe that's how you prefer to run/play your games, but it wasn't on the table for this game. At no point did I tell them "I intend to have no mercy on you guys, so you better optimize the crap out of your PCs to have a fighting chance", or anything like that. Quite the opposite, they knew it's a published adventure and that I'm a first time GM, and they knew what I was going to be running - primarily a role-playing game and not, as I said before, an escalating character meatgrinder.
I do agree with you that there has to be an element of risk and the threat of failure, and death should never be that far away - there's no reward without risk, after all... but I'm not going to be punishing my other players just to keep up with this one optimized Halfling Rogue.

MrMagpie |
What your player appears to be arguing is that a successful Stealth roll automatically grants the Invisibility condition. If it does, then yes, the PC would not only gain a +2 bonus to hit but his opponents would lose their Dexterity bonuses, each and every time. However, except for a boss in ** spoiler omitted ** I don't recall ever seeing anything official in any of the Pathfinder books or material that says that a successful stealth check = Invisibility condition. And that one boss in the game I played in may or may not have been played correctly by my GM; we haven't gotten all the way through that AP and I have...
So how would you say Stealth and Sneak Attack rules ACTUALLY work? Spell it out for me like I'm a total noob... which, come to think of it, isn't all that far from the truth... lol.

Uncertainty Lich |

I'm not sure about this myself, but the rules allow one to use concealment to enter Stealth, and he argues that as long as enemies don't know where he is and he's within 30 ft, he should get his Sneak Attack because enemies are denied their DEX bonus.
He's the Sniper Rouge, right? He'd get SA within 40ft at 3rd level.
Still, I don't think he gets to deny them the DEX just by having concealment. He is harder to hit, can't be attacked with total concealment, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't also make everyone else easier to hit.
Concealment
To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment.
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has concealment if his space is entirely within an effect that grants concealment. When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you, use the rules for determining concealment from ranged attacks.
In addition, some magical effects provide concealment against all attacks, regardless of whether any intervening concealment exists.
Concealment Miss Chance: Concealment gives the subject of a successful attack a 20% chance that the attacker missed because of the concealment. Make the attack normally—if the attacker hits, the defender must make a miss chance d% roll to avoid being struck. Multiple concealment conditions do not stack.
Concealment and Stealth Checks: You can use concealment to make a Stealth check. Without concealment, you usually need cover to make a Stealth check.
Total Concealment: If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight, he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can't attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).
You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.
Ignoring Concealment: Concealment isn't always effective. An area of dim lighting or darkness doesn't provide any concealment against an opponent with darkvision. Characters with low-light vision can see clearly for a greater distance than other characters with the same light source. Although invisibility provides total concealment, sighted opponents may still make Perception checks to notice the location of an invisible character. An invisible character gains a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if moving, or a +40 bonus on Stealth checks when not moving (even though opponents can't see you, they might be able to figure out where you are from other visual or auditory clues).
Varying Degrees of Concealment: Certain situations may provide more or less than typical concealment, and modify the miss chance accordingly.
If that's not how it works then his whole strategy is suspect because in that case he shouldn't be able to Sneak Attack at all except during the surprise round or something.
That's what I'm thinking. I haven't played this myself, but I've heard people often complain about that limitation when playing Sniper Rouges.
However, few people have called this into question here, so I assume that his interpretation of the rules is indeed correct. Zog argues that as long as enemies know ROUGHLY where you are (perhaps because they smell you, or perhaps because they have one of your arrows sticking out of their ass and pointing in your general direction), they shouldn't be denied DEX bonus against your attacks and therefore you can't Sneak Attack them anymore. I'm really not sure if that's how it's supposed to work, it does make sense... but Sneak Attack itself is such an abstract mechanic that it's hard to determine when it does or does not apply, common sense doesn't necessarily cut it.
Yeah, I've been looking at other threads on the topic. I linked that one. I think there was some talk way back that the developers were going to allow it to work the way your player is using it, but I think they chose not to. The main arguement for it working like how your player is using it is from just this one line in the glossary under AC:
"If you can't react to a blow, you can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC."
The assumption is that if you can't see where the attack came from that you can't react to it, but that's not actually written anywhere.
Flatfooted is explicit though and so are the other means of denying DEX bonus, like feint. Invisible creatures get to deny DEX, but they are invisible, not concealed. I don't know, but I'd probably lean towards concealment doesn't remove DEX from AC, just because it takes a few different places to justify that ruling. If concealment were intended to work that way I'd imagine it'd read that way under concealment in the core.

thejeff |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It was explicitly stated by Jason Bulmahn in discussion of the recent Stealth Errata that successful stealth does deny Dex and thus make sneak attack possible.

MrMagpie |
It was explicitly stated by Jason Bulmahn in discussion of the recent Stealth Errata that successful stealth does deny Dex and thus make sneak attack possible.
Um, maybe I'm not reading things correctly but he then goes on to say:
"This does allow you to move from cover, use Stealth to approach a target, and make a single attack, at which point, Stealth is broken, regardless of the outcome. Now, if you slay that target with one hit, and still could maintain Stealth from all other foes in the area (if say, it is dark and they cannot see you), a GM might reasonably interpret that you could maintain Stealth from other foes, but that requires GM interpretation and is not really the point of this particular situation."
Which seems to indicate that once you make your attack vs an enemy from Stealth, you are no longer Stealthed regardless of whether you hit or miss, unless you kill the target outright - subject to GM decision. So you can't attack the same enemy from Stealth over and over again and get Sneak Attacks every time, unless you are flanking them - but regardless, after that first attack, Stealth is broken.
Note that in that first post he also said "It was our intent that if you are unaware of a threat, you cannot react to a blow". One could certainly argue that once you have an arrow lodged in your back, you are, shall we say... aware of the threat of arrows flying at your back lol.

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Don't be discouraged against tweaking your encounters to give the rogue a harder time, especially if he really is causing issues for the campaign. This doesn't mean making an encounter harder for everyone.
The problem here seems to be that the rogue doesn't seem to change his tactics at all -- he seems to *always* find cover and pick targets off slowly. In such a case, there's really no thinking for him beyond what target to shoot at.
Present his character with creatures within an encounter that would force him to think on his feet or change his tactics. Creatures of the ooze type, incorporeal subtype, and swarm subtype can more or less be considered the bane of an assassin that specializes in sneak attacking. All have immunity to crits and sneak attacks, swarms can be immune to non-aoe attacks entirely,and a number of them have lifesense and blindsight.
If you're just trying to add some variety to his decision-making, give him opportunities in combat to do something far more valuable than just putting an arrow into an enemy's noggin. Of course, don't just feed those opportunities to him, but allow him to see that those possibilities could be exploited under the right circumstances.
A rogue is supposed to be able to take various actions. The fact that your rogue player only chooses to do one thing seems a sad story.

MrMagpie |
Using blind fighting does not enable sneak attack, because the target has concealment.
Another way let others shine... monsters with DR 5-ish.
If the initial damage does not penetrate the DR the sneak attack damage does nothing.
Sniper's Eye does negate normal concealment for the purpose on sneak attacking, however Improved Blind-Fight and Greater Blind-Fight (which lets you treat full concealment as regular concealment) seem to refer specifically to MELEE attacks. He either didn't notice this or he has something else in plan.

Insufferable Smartypants |
It was explicitly stated by Jason Bulmahn in discussion of the recent Stealth Errata that successful stealth does deny Dex and thus make sneak attack possible.
Er... no. That's not precisely what he said.
What he said was: "It was our intent that if you are unaware of a threat, you cannot react to a blow."
That doesn't clear up this question at all. If you've not made your presense known, the enemy is unaware of you, but what if you've sniped an enemy and alerted them to your presense.
Even a group of deer will react if you shoot one of them, and they don't have any signifigant intelligence scores! Try it out one day. Shoot at one deer out of a bunch and then tell me the rest of them don't get their DEX bonus on your 2nd shot.

MrMagpie |
thejeff wrote:It was explicitly stated by Jason Bulmahn in discussion of the recent Stealth Errata that successful stealth does deny Dex and thus make sneak attack possible.Um, maybe I'm not reading things correctly but he then goes on to say:
"This does allow you to move from cover, use Stealth to approach a target, and make a single attack, at which point, Stealth is broken, regardless of the outcome. Now, if you slay that target with one hit, and still could maintain Stealth from all other foes in the area (if say, it is dark and they cannot see you), a GM might reasonably interpret that you could maintain Stealth from other foes, but that requires GM interpretation and is not really the point of this particular situation."
Which seems to indicate that once you make your attack vs an enemy from Stealth, you are no longer Stealthed regardless of whether you hit or miss, unless you kill the target outright - subject to GM decision. So you can't attack the same enemy from Stealth over and over again and get Sneak Attacks every time, unless you are flanking them - but regardless, after that first attack, Stealth is broken.
Note that in that first post he also said "It was our intent that if you are unaware of a threat, you cannot react to a blow". One could certainly argue that once you have an arrow lodged in your back, you are, shall we say... aware of the threat of arrows flying at your back lol.
Now I'm just quoting myself, but it occurred to me that the purpose of sniping is to *maintain* Stealth following a ranged attack... Jason Bulmahn apparently referred to melee attacks. So I'm still not sure how it's supposed to work!

Kolokotroni |

I do agree with you that there has to be an element of risk and the threat of failure, and death should never be that far away - there's no reward without risk, after all... but I'm not going to be punishing my other players just to keep up with this one optimized Halfling Rogue.
So what constitutes failure, or the threat there of? Does he often go off alone, and thus the rest of his party is not getting beat on while he does his stealth shoot once, stealth trick? I would think given you say they arent optimized, the lack of the rogue being a target as well as the relatively low damage he's capable of with one shot per round would mean the party would take a real licking in difficult encounters. Do you not consider party members going down to be an adequate chance of failure? Does it have to be a threat personal to the rogue?
Also, have you tried talking to the player? Like as a person, explaining that his optimization of stealth while not 'broken' is disruptive and making things difficult for you? Explain that because of the extremes his stealth has reached, you would be forced to either deliberately counter it with encounters or simply ignore his character entirely and attack the other party members, then have monsters leave when the rest of the party was dead or incapacitated. A stealthing halfing isnt going to keep up with the walking pace of most other creatures. In fact a simple tactic you could employ consistently, is when enemies cant find him, they withdraw from the battle to a new location, having been frightened by the attacks from unseen enemies.