The initiative rules say what they do, and they do nothing else. This is the same thing as saying "Fireball doesn't SAY I can't use it to transform a giant into a frog, so I'll do that!" Spurious logic at best.As far as i undestand the initiative rules you dont Roll until combat has startet, if you dont get to act in the surprise round you dont Roll until next round.Initiative rules may be located in the combat section, but there is nothing in the rules limiting initiative to combat only actions.
Doing the initiative before combat starts greatly reduces the value of having a High initiative. IMOPHow so. The characters with a high initiative have the first chance to interact with the NPC's.
If the only form of interaction those characters are interested in is KILL, KILL, KILL, perhaps you should either more closely scrutinize their alignment choices or consider medication.
What Zhayne said.
|
The initiative rules say what they do, and they do nothing else. This is the same thing as saying "Fireball doesn't SAY I can't use it to transform a giant into a frog, so I'll do that!" Spurious logic at best.As far as i undestand the initiative rules you dont Roll until combat has startet, if you dont get to act in the surprise round you dont Roll until next round.Initiative rules may be located in the combat section, but there is nothing in the rules limiting initiative to combat only actions.
Doing the initiative before combat starts greatly reduces the value of having a High initiative. IMOPHow so. The characters with a high initiative have the first chance to interact with the NPC's.
If the only form of interaction those characters are interested in is KILL, KILL, KILL, perhaps you should either more closely scrutinize their alignment choices or consider medication.
Using your logic:
Initiative says what order characters act in.
It does not say all actions must be attacks.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Even if you buy into the idea that initiative -> combat has started, there is nothing that say you cannot talk to people or initiate diplomacy and other non-hostile actions in combat. There is nothing in the rules that say you must smack everything with your sword once initiative is rolled or that you can assume that everyone around your is hostile because initiative is rolled.
I go into initiative anytime the sequence of PC actions matters. It is actually the best way to avoid some of the stupid stuff that happens when 2 groups meet in the wild, they talk, then a fight breaks out, and everyone is flat footed even though they had been talking for 2 minutes and everyone knew a fight was about to break out.
if the OP's GM rolled init every time the PCs encountered any NPC, the OP probably would have mentioned that,
or would not have found the fact that the GM rolled it in this instance especially notable, which they did.
This was the first time I'd ever played with this DM. It was for a bunch of newer players also. I won't ever be going to any of his games because I think he was a bad DM for a host of other reasons, not including this initiative thing. He was generally extremely unprepared, not descriptive, interesting, or a good storyteller... and kept having to retcon mistakes over and over due to the general lack of preparedness.
If the GM wants to handle non-combat encounters using initiative, he should make it clear that the other side isn't doing anything hostile.Encounters are not always black and white. There are plenty of scenarios that have both combat and non-combat solutions.
Unless the PC's are simply looking for an excuse to murder everybody that even twitches funny, there are going to be circumstances where somebody else is going to initiate the hostilities.
Of course, but if the GM is asking for initiative and not intending actual combat, he need to describe what the other group is doing clearly enough to avoid misunderstandings on the player level. Remember he's the only conduit of information to the players. The characters can see what's happening. The players can't. This is especially true if you're not running with a long established group where you all know each other's habits.
At the same time, the players should ask. Especially if playing with a different GM.
It's a reasonable assumption that the reason a GM asks for initiative when it isn't in response to a PC hostile action that it's in response to an NPC hostile action. It doesn't have to be.And if you describe it well you can keep the tension up. Is the NPC knocking an arrow because he's about to attack? Or is he readying a shot in case you're hostile? Is he casting a buff? Or a fireball?
This. There are really two separate questions -- what does it mean when the GM asks for initiative roll, and how do I react?
The poor decisions in the latter does not negate poor communications problems with the former, and vice versa.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
|
Even if you buy into the idea that initiative -> combat has started, there is nothing that say you cannot talk to people or initiate diplomacy and other non-hostile actions in combat. There is nothing in the rules that say you must smack everything with your sword once initiative is rolled or that you can assume that everyone around your is hostile because initiative is rolled.
While true, Diplomacy is hard, to the tune of -10 to do it as a full round action, in combat. It's the kind of thing you want to get out of the way before things come to blows.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Even if you buy into the idea that initiative -> combat has started, there is nothing that say you cannot talk to people or initiate diplomacy and other non-hostile actions in combat. There is nothing in the rules that say you must smack everything with your sword once initiative is rolled or that you can assume that everyone around your is hostile because initiative is rolled.While true, Diplomacy is hard, to the tune of -10 to do it as a full round action, in combat. It's the kind of thing you want to get out of the way before things come to blows.
It's not just Diplomacy
There is also Bluff.
Owner - Round Table Games
|
For 3.5/ Pathfinder I ask for initiative at the start of the session and at the end of each encounter. I then use that intiative when the next initiative situation arises (not always combat). Makes it feel a bit less "game-y", and sometimes I need to know the order before everyone is aware of anything going on. Not a dick move. Not really all that concerned with what the PRD says is the exact time you are "supposed" to roll init. Not trying to kill players. Just trying to make it more fun.
ninja'd by Tinalles
I haven't read the whole thread, but I see a problem with rolling initiative if hostilities haven't begun.
Characters often invest a lot in initiative. If you have a high initiative, you should act in combat before those who do not have a high initiative. If initiative order is entered into, and then NPCs begin attacking, the dude or dudette who got a 28 initiative roll is going to be rightfully annoyed when baddie with 7 initiative goes first. System mastery does alleviate this somewhat ("I hold my action... I hold my action..."), but this is messy and far from an ideal way of running things (and alienating for those without system mastery).
We have a mechanism to deal with surprise: the surprise round. If NPCs get to go first because of DM initiative shenanigans, the DM is basically giving the NPCs a class feature of the bandit (full action in a surprise round). That's a no-no in my book.
Id you go first, but you "delay your action" and choose to go later in the initiative round, are you still flat footed?
Id you go first, but you "delay your action" and choose to go later in the initiative round, are you still flat footed?
You are flat footed if you haven't acted yet, and delaying your action would mean you don't act until after your delay... At least that's how I read it.
Is delaying a kind of action?
In the pfsrd in the combat section I found this:
Special Initiative Actions
Delay
Ready
If the site is right ready and delay are actions so by using them you have acted.
Is delaying a kind of action?
It is a "No Action"
|
|
Characters often invest a lot in initiative. If you have a high initiative, you should act in combat before those who do not have a high initiative. If initiative order is entered into, and then NPCs begin attacking, the dude or dudette who got a 28 initiative roll is going to be rightfully annoyed when baddie with 7 initiative goes first. System mastery does alleviate this somewhat ("I hold my action... I hold my action..."), but this is messy and far from an ideal way of running things (and alienating for those without system mastery).
If you are invested in initiative, you still have your initiative.
You may have used it for a non-combat action such as diplomacy. If you succeeded there may never be a combat. Congratulations, you defeated the encounter without killing anybody.
If you choose not to participate socially, You have the options to either ready an action or delay. If multiple combatants have readied actions triggering off the same event, the character with the higher initiative modifier goes first.
Of course, your guy with the 28 initiative also has the option to attack and kill the guy with a 7 initiative before he says or does anything. Nothing is preventing you.
There may be consequences though.
The meta-game action of rolling initiative is never an in-game excuse to kill everybody in the characters general vicinity. The characters, and the players running them, should try applying brain cells to problems instead of resolving everything with steel.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Characters often invest a lot in initiative. If you have a high initiative, you should act in combat before those who do not have a high initiative. If initiative order is entered into, and then NPCs begin attacking, the dude or dudette who got a 28 initiative roll is going to be rightfully annoyed when baddie with 7 initiative goes first. System mastery does alleviate this somewhat ("I hold my action... I hold my action..."), but this is messy and far from an ideal way of running things (and alienating for those without system mastery).If you are invested in initiative, you still have your initiative.
You may have used it for a non-combat action such as diplomacy. If you succeeded there may never be a combat. Congratulations, you defeated the encounter without killing anybody.
If you choose not to participate socially, You have the options to either ready an action or delay. If multiple combatants have readied actions triggering off the same event, the character with the higher initiative modifier goes first.
Of course, your guy with the 28 initiative also has the option to attack and kill the guy with a 7 initiative before he says or does anything. Nothing is preventing you.
There may be consequences though.
The meta-game action of rolling initiative is never an in-game excuse to kill everybody in the characters general vicinity. The characters, and the players running them, should try applying brain cells to problems instead of resolving everything with steel.
Having your initiative to use diplomacy is garbage. Trying to influence somebody with diplomacy takes an entire minute.
The problem is PC with 28 initiative goes. He begins his 1 minute of diplomacy-ing. NPC with 7 initiative goes. NPC stabs PC in the face.
Edit: Assuming the NPC is not hostile at the beginning of the round and becomes hostile during the first round. This, as my previous post said, makes the surprise round useless. A number of mechanics interact with the surprise round so using initiative outside of combat obviates or corrupts those mechanics.
PCs good initiative is useless.
Initiative is for combat or similar situations where turn order is important (haunts, complex traps). Forcing social encounters into the initiative system leads to both absurdity and a slow down of play.
|
|
Is delaying a kind of action?
In the pfsrd in the combat section I found this:If the site is right ready and delay are actions so by using them you have acted.Special Initiative Actions
Delay
Ready
At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.
A character who delays has had a chance to act.
He has simply chosen to defer when that action occurs.
I don't see how delaying would count as having taken an action:
Delay
By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act. When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat. When your new, lower initiative count comes up later in the same round, you can act normally. You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point.
You never get back the time you spend waiting to see what's going to happen. You also can't interrupt anyone else's action (as you can with a readied action).
Initiative Consequences of Delaying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the delayed action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed an action, you don't get to take a delayed action (though you can delay again).
If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
I could be wrong, but it seems straightforward to me.
Heavens forbid you spend a minute talking to the NPC's before killing them.
Having your initiative to use diplomacy is garbage. Trying to influence somebody with diplomacy takes an entire minute.
Who are you talking to, man?
You should talk to them beforehand. You shouldn't roll initiative in social encounters. Did you not read the OP?
Social encounters are not meant to be handled with combat rounds. If you are in a(n intended) social encounter, such as that described in OP (finding humans in the woods), and then someone pulls a knife... That is a surprise round. He gets an action (and others might as well, depending upon specifics). Then you roll initiative.
Don't ascribe positions to me I have not advocated.
Flat-Footed isn't governed by taking actions; it's governed by your turn coming up in the initiative order. When your turn comes up, whether you take your turn and spend your actions, take your turn and just stand there like a clod thinking about designer shoes, or choose to delay your initiative count, it's still your turn and, once it hits, you're no longer flat-footed.
Yes, it looks like you are right, Kazaan. The specific text is that you 'have a chance to act' and not that you have acted yet. I don't think that flat-footed consistently uses this language, but that is the language used at the beginning of the combat section.
Having your initiative to use diplomacy is garbage. Trying to influence somebody with diplomacy takes an entire minute.
The problem is PC with 28 initiative goes. He begins his 1 minute of diplomacy-ing. NPC with 7 initiative goes. NPC stabs PC in the face.
Edit: Assuming the NPC is not hostile at the beginning of the round and becomes hostile during the first round. This, as my previous post said, makes the surprise round useless. A number of mechanics interact...
And sometimes you roll initiative, then you high initiative ranger with a good spot and sense motive wins initiative and calls out to the rest of the group, "Hey we just found that group of lost woodsmen, Hail and well met!" before the scared woodsmen attack.
Also, if you were in a initiative based social situation, and multiple people all readied actions to attack, then I would use initiative to determine who goes first out of the readied actions.
Having your initiative to use diplomacy is garbage. Trying to influence somebody with diplomacy takes an entire minute.
The problem is PC with 28 initiative goes. He begins his 1 minute of diplomacy-ing. NPC with 7 initiative goes. NPC stabs PC in the face.
Edit: Assuming the NPC is not hostile at the beginning of the round and becomes hostile during the first round. This, as my previous post said, makes the surprise round useless. A number of mechanics interact...
And sometimes you roll initiative, then you high initiative ranger with a good spot and sense motive wins initiative and calls out to the rest of the group, "Hey we just found that group of lost woodsmen, Hail and well met!" before the scared woodsmen attack.
Also, if you were in a initiative based social situation, and multiple people all readied actions to attack, then I would use initiative to determine who goes first out of the readied actions.
What you are describing is - or could be handled by - a surprise round, no?
This thread reminds me of a delightful screw tactic to use on triggerhappy parties, when you're in a "GM is karma" kinda mood.
The party is in a dangerous place, and comes upon a bevy of unarmed youths bathing in a pool. Roll initiative, the GM declares.
Hopefully not too many innocents will be slaughtered before the actual danger, a low-initiative invisible ooze or whatever, attacks the players.
I think the best interpretation I know of for how to handle it properly is that when you tell players to roll initiative you must also tell them what combat action they perceive started that initiative. If they arent aware of it, they have no idea a combat action has been instigated, they cannot HAVE ititiative and are surprised/flat footed.... Only witnessing a combat action would give them initiative opportunities that they do not instigate themselves.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I rolled initiative, so I have a license to kill?
So you wander in to a restricted area in the forest, say near a prison or something, a group of guards on patrol comes across your group in a hostile manner(That's what good patrol guards would do). You win init and kill a guard before any questions are asked. Without any information, no knowledge check, no fore warning? If you don't take the time to assess the situation you reap what you sow. Jail? Fines? Execution?
Blame could easily go both ways.
-Nervous and inexperienced GM, (How does a gm get experience anyways, I got better by running some terrible games and yes messing up some times. My vote is to work with the GM, build them up.)
-Blood thirsty players who think they are playing World of Warcraft and when combat starts they have to attack what ever is in front of them. Your not playing a video game, when combat breaks out you have other options besides killing what ever you just encountered and taking there stuff.
It all depends on the situation. So roll initiative, just don't think you can kill anything just because it is there.
|
|
Heavens forbid you spend a minute talking to the NPC's before killing them.
Having your initiative to use diplomacy is garbage. Trying to influence somebody with diplomacy takes an entire minute.Who are you talking to, man?
You should talk to them beforehand. You shouldn't roll initiative in social encounters. Did you not read the OP?
Social encounters are not meant to be handled with combat rounds. If you are in a(n intended) social encounter, such as that described in OP (finding humans in the woods), and then someone pulls a knife... That is a surprise round. He gets an action (and others might as well, depending upon specifics). Then you roll initiative.
Don't ascribe positions to me I have not advocated.
Rolling initiative and acting in initiative order allows the DM to structure the social encounter in the same way as a fight. It can be used to determine who has the opportunity to act first and in what order subsequent character act.
It also allows characters and NPC's the possibility of prepping for combat.
An example from a game I played in. We know we were going to be fighting the BBEG, but several party members engage him in conversation. I cast Vanish while around the corner and begin moving up.
Initiative during the social encounter, is also allowing for precision tracking of time passes, movement rates, etc.
Or we could just make random assumptions about time passed, movement rates, perception checks. Heavens forbid, the BBEB suffer a disadvantage on initiative, I'm sure he had modifiers. Perhaps as soon as the die was rolled he should have immediately cast his Black Tentacles based on the meta-game knowledge that combat was initiated?
The initiative rules say what they do, and they do nothing else. This is the same thing as saying "Fireball doesn't SAY I can't use it to transform a giant into a frog, so I'll do that!" Spurious logic at best.As far as i undestand the initiative rules you dont Roll until combat has startet, if you dont get to act in the surprise round you dont Roll until next round.Initiative rules may be located in the combat section, but there is nothing in the rules limiting initiative to combat only actions.
Doing the initiative before combat starts greatly reduces the value of having a High initiative. IMOPHow so. The characters with a high initiative have the first chance to interact with the NPC's.
If the only form of interaction those characters are interested in is KILL, KILL, KILL, perhaps you should either more closely scrutinize their alignment choices or consider medication.
Using your logic:
Initiative says what order characters act in.
It does not say all actions must be attacks.
It also says 'IN COMBAT'.
It also says 'IN COMBAT'.The initiative rules say what they do, and they do nothing else. This is the same thing as saying "Fireball doesn't SAY I can't use it to transform a giant into a frog, so I'll do that!" Spurious logic at best.As far as i undestand the initiative rules you dont Roll until combat has startet, if you dont get to act in the surprise round you dont Roll until next round.Initiative rules may be located in the combat section, but there is nothing in the rules limiting initiative to combat only actions.
Doing the initiative before combat starts greatly reduces the value of having a High initiative. IMOPHow so. The characters with a high initiative have the first chance to interact with the NPC's.
If the only form of interaction those characters are interested in is KILL, KILL, KILL, perhaps you should either more closely scrutinize their alignment choices or consider medication.
Using your logic:
Initiative says what order characters act in.
It does not say all actions must be attacks.
Well what is combat?
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
*double-reverse overhead facepalm*
You did not seriously ask that.
Combat is combat. Somebody is has intention of and is acting on harming somebody else
|
|
Played a game with a new DM today. Walking through the woods. See some humans off through the trees. DM makes everyone roll initiative as soon as we spot them. I get highest roll and charge and attack.
After session is over, DM is like "why the f@*+ did you randomly attack people in the woods?"
I wouldn't have, but the "roll initiative" completely put me in the "BATTLE" mindset.
Is rolling initiative like that when no one has said they are going to fight a normal thing to do? Seems like it would put many players into a battle mindset when they otherwise wouldn't be...
I don't think Init needs to be rolled for anything but combat. However, if you do roll before other things, make sure your players know!
Combat is only sticking the Axe in the dragon? Or is it over coming an obstacle with what ever you have available, Intimidate, bluff, diplomacy, spell, exc.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well what is combat?
If that's how you feel the need to resolve the situation. Dragon still wants to eat you. You are prefect justified in using your initiative for whatever you want at this pointas long as you're informed of the situation.
I don't consider convincing the Queen that the Grand Vizier is evil, even as guards stand ready to throw us in jail "combat".
Usually combat at my table includes "intent to do harm through some method".
Well what is combat?Let me Google that for you...
Verb
Take action to reduce, destroy, or prevent (something undesirable).Thanks that helped a lot! It does not only say kill!
Well what is combat?Let me Google that for you...Verb
Take action to reduce, destroy, or prevent (something undesirable).Thanks that helped a lot! It does not only say kill!
A destroyed human is pretty dead.
Well what is combat?Let me Google that for you...Verb
Take action to reduce, destroy, or prevent (something undesirable).Thanks that helped a lot! It does not only say kill!
I guess my decision to skip ice cream last night so as to prevent weight gain is combat within the context of Pathfinder.
We even roll initiative when we try to stop a PC afected with a mind altering spell wich would harm himself.
so NO initiative is just to see who reacts first enviorement vs PC's
and no Good charachter should charge anny person even in combat...
if there is 5 people in a room and you know none of them one of them fires at you and misses do you shoot to kill all 5 ??
no you dont...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A destroyed human is pretty dead.Well what is combat?Let me Google that for you...Verb
Take action to reduce, destroy, or prevent (something undesirable).Thanks that helped a lot! It does not only say kill!
True, but using the verb combat, its not the only option. A reduced human may be disarmed or grappled. While as preventing something may not need physical confrontation at all, but still combat.
Maybe I am not being clear enough.
Greene: Since we're obviously being trol– er... guided into a pedantic derailment attempt, do you employ the same debate skills when you get pulled over for speeding? What about at the subsequent hearing?
Just looking for examples to give my players on what happens when you fail a Diplomacy check by enough to 'reduce' a potential opponent's attitude by one or more categories.
Back on topic, when would most GMs call for initiative in the above scenario? When the police or judge turn hostile? When the character beings to speak?
A destroyed human is pretty dead.Well what is combat?Let me Google that for you...Verb
Take action to reduce, destroy, or prevent (something undesirable).Thanks that helped a lot! It does not only say kill!
True, but using the verb combat, its not the only option. A reduced human may be disarmed or grappled. While as preventing something may not need physical confrontation at all, but still combat.
Maybe I am not being clear enough.
I know I make my PCs roll initiative when they eat their rations, you know, to prevent hunger.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
In my opinion both as a DM and as a player, rolling initiative is the way to tell players that they have sensed what they would believe to be combat-worthy danger. That might be an undead rushing them with a glub or someone drawing a knife and starting to make a move (even if those actions haven't yet resolved). But unless they are so paranoid that they are literally attacking nothing, I would not have them roll initiative just because they met someone that might be unfriendly (no matter how likely that might initially seem, short of having weapons already drawn).
In other words: Initiative is my cue to the players that they believe they will need to defend themselves quickly and most likely violently.
Conversely, if players ask to roll initiative then I take it as an indication that they are the ones attempting to start some violence. However, it is more frequent that they simply declare a violent action and I have to ask them to roll initiative first (even if it's a surprise round action, it's just easier that way). Because of this, it is rather frequent for the PCs to be the ones forcing initiative to be rolled rather than the NPCs, though the act of doing so is usually justifiable.
I would never, under any circumstances, have the PCs roll initiative just because I believe an encounter will probably be tense, or even probably lead to combat. I have had trolls roll up to the party without demanding initiative before. I have seen groups gab with ghosts, barter with boggards, parley with pit fiends and hang out with hobgoblins. To assume that situations will automatically resolve into such a fast paced exchange that initiative would even be helpful (much less required) would be facile to say the least. Unless someone else moves to attack first, let the PCs get to decide when things transition to "combat".
(Note: In the case of "someone rushes them first", that does not mean that the initiator automatically gets a surprise round. The fact that they declare intent is enough to force it into initiative since others can see them begin their action. Those that get a lower result than the initiator are caught off-guard by the attack, as represented by the flat-footed condition, while those that get a higher result react fast enough to defend themselves properly and may even get the first strike in due to the weirdness of the sequential nature of rounds. I would argue that 3s rounds make for a better combat simulation, but that's an argument for another day.)
stuff
Pretty much summed up how I and the other 2 GMs I've been chatting with feel about the matter.
Good post, Stabbitty.
Seems like it would be more correct for the players to dictate when its time for them to roll initiative because thats when they're 'taking initiative'... Before that they're just letting the world happen to them, even if that includes 'combat initiatives taken by the enemy'... until they 'take initiative' the enemy can choose to 'take initiative' first but the player should not know about or roll against it unless there is sensory information that suggests they ought to...
And even then its only a 'suggestion' to roll/take initiative.
Objectively even readying a weapon isnt abjectly 'initiative time'... Just because I take out my weapon or my weapon is out doesnt mean it still aint talky time (that came out kinkier than I thought it would)....
If I had the choice between
or
The first is a MUCH less desirable way to run the exact same encounter in a HUGE way. The difference between the two is neither subtle nor semantic. By TELLING the party to roll initiative IMHO you're 'baiting' the combat in a way that you oughtn't. Players rolling initiative should be the realm of player agency and npcs and monsters taking initiative should be the realm of DM agency. I encourage everyone to stick to playing on their own side of the gm screen.