[Guide 5.0] GM signoffs on every purchase


Pathfinder Society

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5/5

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It has been indicated elsethread that the new Inventory Tracking Sheet will need to have each purchase signed off by a GM. I've been pondering this since last night, and I've come to the conclusion that this policy is not beneficial to organized play. Thoughts are as follows:

Reason 1: Like many others I know, I like to think about my purchases before I make them; I come home with my Chronicle and wait until I have some free time, look at my character's wishlist, ponder the options, and eventually pick something. So I'm not going to want to make my purchases at the end of a session.

Reason 2: Also like many others, I use Hero Lab. So once I've settled on my purchases, I enter them in Hero Lab so they can make whatever adjustments need to be made and be displayed with all the other stuff. Then I write them on the Chronicle so that I have a record. At that point, getting a GM to sign off is just paperwork, especially because it's the next GM who will now have to sign off on a sheet he or she didn't issue, and a purchase he or she didn't see, all before running a session that he or she's probably going to be focused on prepping, which means that the initials will almost certainly be slapped on without paying enough attention to justify having to get them in the first place.

Reason 3: Speaking as a GM, I have the same concerns. I don't want to be tied to the table after a game to sign off on purchases, and I don't want to have to sign off on sheets I didn't issue and purchases I didn't witness before a game.

Reason 4: When you get right down to it, we run on the honor system. We trust people not to fiddle their equipment, we trust people not to change feats they don't like, we trust people not to completely fake their Chronicle histories. Getting a GM to sign off on every little purchase isn't going to prevent people who're dead set on cheating, and while it might prevent the occasional error, I feel that it introduces an unnecessary level of complexity. One of the things I most like about PFS is that I bring my character to the table and we're ready to go--someone can audit to confirm that if they want, but I don't need [table-]GM approval to play what I want to play. This change moves the GM into the realm of babysitter--and I argue that from both the player and GM perspective--and, in my opinion, runs contrary to the established ideals of PFS.

Reason 5: This is going to be extra-problematic for online players; getting a GM signature on a hand-written sheet when the GM is on the far side of the world is possible, but not especially practical.

In essence, I think it's enough that we already have to have GMs sign off on spells, tricks for ACs, and now retraining. I don't think that signing off on every equipment purchase is a good addition to that, and I would ask that this policy be reconsidered before the Guide 5.0 is officially published.

Edit: Since someone will request it, here's a link to somewhere near the start of that particular conversation; you'll have to dig a bit for the whole thing.

3/5

I am strongly, strongly opposed to GM sign-offs on purchases.

I can think of literally NO reason whatsoever such a practice would contribute to PFS, and it would introduce a huge downside (more at-table paperwork).

4/5 *

GM signoffs on purchases have ALWAYS been required. Always. This just puts it all on a nice form for ease of player and GM reference.

I use Hero Lab as well, and I admit it is a pain to remember to synch up the Chronicle and the file. Maybe they can come up with a Hero Lab patch that lets those be printed out as well. But your Chronicles and now the Tracking Sheet are the official character sheet, not Hero Lab. This will be a much better system going forward, because it will remove the accidental "did I use that?" consumable issue, and make it reasonable for a GM to know what a character actually has. As it stands, it takes a GM so long to audit a single character sheet, that it can't be realistically done at the table. This means mistakes, and more malicious behaviour, go unchallenged, skewing game balance and rewarding bad or sloppy record-keeping. That is worse for the campaign than a little bit of extra paperwork that was supposed to be done anyway.

5/5

Scott Young wrote:
GM signoffs on purchases have ALWAYS been required. Always.

I've had a venture officer tell me, point blank, that they did not want to hear about my purchases between sessions, and there was no need to bother a GM with it.

Since then, I have never once had a GM want to sign off on purchases.

Can you tell me where in the Guide this rule is printed?

Dark Archive 2/5

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Hey Patrick, RtFM =v)

From Guide 4.3 p 38 & 39, steps 8 thru 10.

I will also chime in that this will be annoying in convention settings. Half the time you are scrambling to get to your next slot, barely able to add everything up worth while. Then at the end of the day, you are able to crack open some books and talk shop about purchases with your roommate.

This is also another issue in dealing with online play. People already are having to figure out their own way of getting the chronicle to the players. I'm sorry PFS, but I'm not going to be a secretary after GM'ing a game: trying to track down everybody's current XP, Fame/PP, and gold. Then fill out another page for items purchased.

Excuse me if I'm not up to date on current events, but was this additional step actually asked for? After 6 years of LG and 5 years of PFS, now we are taking it to this level of "security?"

Honestly, it looks like yet another block for new players. I have a hard time keeping players current on their chronicles currently.

"OK now after the game is over, you have this form, this form and this form to fill out."

*blank dumb founded look from newbie player*

[sarcasm]"Make sure you use blue ink and the first and third form, black on the second. Block print on the first and second form, cursive on the third. Press hard so it goes through the carbon copy."[/sarcasm]

3/5

Last guide it was on page 23, 4th paragraph down on the left:

OPG wrote:

A GM must be present in order for you to purchase

items, so you may only purchase items during or after a
scenario.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

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Scott Young wrote:
GM signoffs on purchases have ALWAYS been required. Always. This just puts it all on a nice form for ease of player and GM reference.

Scott, could you please show me where in the current (or previous) versions of the guide it said that initials (or signature) from the GM were required? I'm not trying to be aggressive here, it's just I don't ever recall seeing that rule written down and in my tenure as VC I ran the region that way - signatures on equipment purchases were not required because the guide does not make mention of it. That requirement has held locally since my resignation as well.

Quote:

But your Chronicles and now the Tracking Sheet are the official character sheet, not Hero Lab. This will be a much better system going forward, because it will remove the accidental "did I use that?" consumable issue, and make it reasonable for a GM to know what a character actually has. As it stands, it takes a GM so long to audit a single character sheet, that it can't be realistically done at the table. This means mistakes, and more malicious behaviour, go unchallenged, skewing game balance and rewarding bad or sloppy record-keeping. That is worse for the campaign than a little bit of extra paperwork that was supposed to be done anyway.

I certainly don't disagree with the idea that the Chronicle and (now) Tracking Sheet are your official record (not Hero Lab), but I don't agree that it will facilitate GM review of equipment. Looking through 20 chronicles, and looking through 4-5 equipment sheets are both time consuming. I probably bought two pages worth of equipment for my alchemist before Thornkeep with the 5 sessions of GM credit I had lying around.

I also think that this firmly puts the campaign on "defensive mode" regarding cheating. With some of my more recent experiences, perhaps this is a warranted change, but in general I don't agree that the extra paperwork is worth it. It is a game after all. If I want to do paperwork, I'll go to work.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Evan Whitefield wrote:

Last guide it was on page 23, 4th paragraph down on the left:

OPG wrote:

A GM must be present in order for you to purchase

items, so you may only purchase items during or after a
scenario.

That's a very different statement than "The GM has to initial it". If you think about it, the old form itself didn't lend well to the idea that the GM had to initial it either. GM initialization slots were present for Gold earned, PA earned, and the overall form, but there was nothing for the purchases line.

To be honest, if I trust the player, I really don't want to spend my free time after the game waiting around for the player to hem and haw over what equipment to buy just to do a sign-off.

1/5

It has never been required for a GM to initial purchases. However, the rules have been that a GM must be present in order to purchase items and that the GM should look over those purchases before signing the chronicle.


When I first playing Society, like the undutiful player I was, I did not read over the guide at first. However, once I did, I did see the rule on the GM signing off on purchases.

My friend and I (we both started play PFS at the same time) were a bit puzzled, as none of the GMs had signed off on our purchases to that point. And none of them since then have done so.

So where it is technically a rule, it is one I have never had enforced.

My question is, if this is going to be enforced now, where does the GM sign off? Is it next to each item or does he/she just sign off in the area of items bought/sold?

To be honest, I really don’t see a reason to start enforcing this now. I feel as long as the chronicle sheet is in good order of purchases/items sold, that should be enough.

3/5

It doesn't say the GM has to initial but it does say that they have to be there and, as Nebten pointed out, they should wait until the player make all purchases and spends their prestige, then they check the players math before signing off on the chronicle sheet.

I'm not saying this is the best way to run things or this how things are run I'm just letting you know whats in the guide.

This has been a topic of discussion for a long time too.

5/5 **

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Just to play devil's advocate, if you are a GM (and isn't everyone a potential GM) can you not sign off on your own purchases?


Ok, so the GM isn’t required to sign off on the purchases, just sign off on the sheet (normally) after checking what purchases are made.

So it really comes down to the GM looking over the sheet before he signs off on it. In my experience, the GM has always filled in the requisite information (EXP, Prestige, Gold, Day Job check) and then signed off the sheet on the bottom. There has ‘never’ been a GM (in my games) who has asked “Ok, what purchases are you going to make?” before he signs off.

As players, I don’t think a lot of us know what purchases we want. With myself, I want the time where I can go over my character and see what he needs, go through the books and check what I can buy and I’m certainly not going to know everything I want to buy when I get my chronicle sheet.

4/5

Personally, I do not see how this is such a big issue. If you take your time in between sessions to review your purchases, there's no problem with that. However, instead of adding them to your previous Chronicle Sheet, you should present your list of purchases to the GM of your next session. That way, he can include the purchases on that Chronicle Sheet, which he then signs off on. Your character merely purchased the items right before/after recieving the latest mission briefing.

The only additional onus that might have is for players to actively remember which items they just purchased, and thus will need to be added to the next Chronicle Sheet.

Dark Archive

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"The more you tighten your grip Tarkin, the more Star Systems will slip through your fingers."

5/5

Nebten & Evan Whitefield wrote:
4.3 citations

Neither of those seem to me to require that the GM initial individual purchases.

They do both rely on the completely unrealistic idea that the player is going to completely fill out the sheet in front of the GM, though. Maybe this is the disconnect.

Does anyone actually see this happen? I'm seeing anecdotal evidence that it doesn't, but maybe in some regions people actually follow this rule.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Evan Whitefield wrote:
It doesn't say the GM has to initial but it does say that they have to be there and, as Nebten pointed out, they should wait until the player make all purchases and spends their prestige, then they check the players math before signing off on the chronicle sheet.

A couple of things. I wish things were as easy as the guide sometimes makes them out to be.

Regardless of what the guide may or may not state, in my experiences everywhere from Gen Con and PaizoCon to local play (including some notoriously by-the-rules GMs), the consensus has been that you don't have to review the purchases. I can name exactly zero times I've been asked to have my purchases reviewed as I make them in well over 150 sessions of play. As a GM, while I personally make sure that in-game purchases are on the sheet (typically by adding them myself), I stop there because I know most players are going to make their decisions after they get home and think about it a bit. So from a theoretical standpoint this may be a great idea to increase accountability, but in a practical sense, it hasn't happened to-date and I really doubt it will happen moving forward.

Additionally, in reality, how often does it happen that it's feasible to get the signatures? If you have a store that closes promptly at 11:00 with a game start of 6:00, or you have a tough game at Gen Con and are finishing up just as the next session is getting set up, the group may literally be in the process of being shuffled out the door the moment the last dice hit the table. In those cases GMs may barely have time to get all the chronicles handed out, let alone wait for the extra time needed to review and initial off on all purchases. With seasons 3-4 this has become a bigger problem due to the slightly longer run time of the scenarios. I know GM time management is important, but sometimes the reality of the situation is that you just don't have time.

Finally, the old wording was vague. The old guide never stated that the specific session GM had to be present to do the sign-off, it just said "a GM". The form wasn't well designed to indicate that sign-off was required (no initial spot on equipment) Further confounding the problem is that if you don't make any purchases but have GM credit then it was implied you reviewed your own record. In essence, the vagueness of the whole thing set a ball in motion that's going to be very difficult to stop.

I'm not saying I won't follow the new guide, but rather, it's going to be impractical in the long run, and certainly not fun (do any of us really enjoy doing more paperwork)?

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston

This also presents an additional problem for online play. It's just not feasible to ask me to sign off on that much electronically after already signing a non-fillable chronicle.

2/5

I do buy things during the course of a game if they make sense to buy at the time. That makes sense to have a GM initial. Other stuff, I need time between games to research. As a GM, I don't look forward to having to review all players' purchases and sign off on them... heck, it's hard enough to complete some scenarios at conventions when you are on a schedule and just get the standard paperwork filled out (Chronicles, etc.). (groan)

Grand Lodge 2/5

Whiskey Jack wrote:
I do buy things during the course of a game if they make sense to buy at the time. That makes sense to have a GM initial. Other stuff, I need time between games to research. As a GM, I don't look forward to having to review all players' purchases and sign off on them... heck, it's hard enough to complete some scenarios at conventions when you are on a schedule and just get the standard paperwork filled out (Chronicles, etc.). (groan)

Love it when people misread the guide. Only things it says to initial are learning a new spell from a scroll or training an animal companion. Its in Step 8 of the guide on page 36. The only other mention of signing off the sheet is following a full review of the filled in sheet and signing at the bottom on the GM signiture line.

Technically, the players responsibility is to write purchases and fill in the top of the sheet before the GMs final signiture.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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About once every three months, I'll have a player sit at my table and ask for the Chronicle sheet so that she can record between-session purchases. I usually explain that I don't hand out the Chronicle for reading before the scenario.

The current arrangement puts those few players who do try to abide by this ruling in a bind. If they come to my tble for their character's 10th scenario, they can't record between-session purchases until after I hand them the Chronicle. Some folks want to go back and amend the previous Chronicle (#9), but then that creates a document that says that their previous GM signed off on those purchases.

Generally speaking, I use the Items Bought section for things bought during the scenario, like noble outfits bought for an ocaission, or bribes to grant bonuses to Diplomacy checks.

The new tracking sheet should allow for players to make notes for purchases without needing the Chronicle sheet..

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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I can see if a player brings a tracking sheet of purchases with them to their next scenario, then that GM can notate the expenditure on that sessions chronicle sheet.

It actually could work quite elegantly. And really all the GM needs to do is briefly glance over prices to make sure they have the fame, and make sure the numbers add up.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

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The store where I'm Pfs coordinator has a very tight schedule (6 to 10). Its hard to get to by 6 so people fairly often run a little late. Scenarios often are tight at a little less than 4 hours.

I just do NOT have time, in general, to audit player purchases. Not unless I take time away from role playing and having fun. Which I refuse to do.

I have difficulty getting new people to volunteer as GMs. The single mist common reason is that they don't think they know enough.

I think the tracking sheet is an excellent tool for recording purchases. Making it mandatory for the player to fill in is fine.

But mandatory GM sign off is NOT going to happen. At absolute best the GM will just initial anything put in front of them. At worst, people will decide that being a GM has become work, not fun.

4/5 *

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Regional differences are interesting...

At my games, players tell me either before the scenario starts or during the scenario, what they will be buying (or what they have bought since last time). It's just the culture, probably because a) that's the rule, and b) we didn't have much of a pre-PFS organized play tradition, so we don't have any "old ways" to fall back on.

The current rules have been pointed out - purchases with a GM present, and the GM signs off on the Chronicle. Once it is signed, no more math or additions can be done. If people haven't been doing it that way, then I can see how this is a big change. Given the huge amount of poor record-keeping I have seen as a GM, I think anything that enforces a little more order will catch mistakes before the table.

Personal Anecdote:
I recently had to ban my first player for cheating. This followed a forensic audit of their character sheet and Chronicles after several GMs flagged issues. It took me four hours to go through everything to distinguish what was just bad record-keeping (by player or GM) and what was malicious. This sheet will help prevent these issues, AND reduce the time required for GMs to enforce the rules. That's good in my opinion.

The form actually solves issues - now your GM can sign off on your Chronicle and let you walk away, you can plan your purchases and fill out the inventory form, and just have them initial it at the start of your next game, and you already have most of the math done for your current Chronicle, saving time at the end of that game, too.

Silver Crusade

I like the IDEA, but Hate the application. I frankly dont have a CLUE about when I bought what expendables or minor objects. I only placed on Chronicle sheets Magic items such as upgrading a sword, or something off a Chronicle sheet. I have never even been asked to look over it.

If people want to cheat they are going to, Nothing we do short of bringing a massive amount of work to catch a few people cheating (and frankly cheating themselves out of fun) will work.

Lets not chop down the apple tree to get to a few bad apples, I know people will start walking once the paperwork starts to pile up. I am there to relax and have fun, not write a book.

I think the Sheets are great for keeping up with what your Char has and for you to personally check for errors, or for the GM to take a fast glance if he wants to know something, but thats about it.

Simply my Humbly stated thoughts.

5/5

Hobbun wrote:

Ok, so the GM isn’t required to sign off on the purchases, just sign off on the sheet (normally) after checking what purchases are made.

So it really comes down to the GM looking over the sheet before he signs off on it. In my experience, the GM has always filled in the requisite information (EXP, Prestige, Gold, Day Job check) and then signed off the sheet on the bottom. There has ‘never’ been a GM (in my games) who has asked “Ok, what purchases are you going to make?” before he signs off.

As players, I don’t think a lot of us know what purchases we want. With myself, I want the time where I can go over my character and see what he needs, go through the books and check what I can buy and I’m certainly not going to know everything I want to buy when I get my chronicle sheet.

This is how it used to be run in my area for the first year or two, but after a while GMs (myself included) stopped, for whatever reason. I remember presenting Mr. Miles with a list of what I was purchasing prior to him signing the chronicle sheet or prior to starting the scenario. If it was before the scenario, the next chronicle wouldn't be signed until those items showed up in the purchased section.

5/5

StarcryX wrote:
I frankly dont have a CLUE about when I bought what expendables or minor objects. I only placed on Chronicle sheets Magic items such as upgrading a sword, or something off a Chronicle sheet. I have never even been asked to look over it.

I believe this is exactly what we're trying to prevent. It's a shame that no one has tried to help you be more accountable for your character's wealth.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Andrew Christian wrote:

I can see if a player brings a tracking sheet of purchases with them to their next scenario, then that GM can notate the expenditure on that sessions chronicle sheet.

It actually could work quite elegantly. And really all the GM needs to do is briefly glance over prices to make sure they have the fame, and make sure the numbers add up.

DING DING DING! WINNER WINNER! HORSE MEAT DINNER!

3/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

What if it's an item that the GM is unfamiliar with? Should he check the price and legality himself, or just trust the player? Should he make sure the player has the source for it? If a GM does his due diligence to verify all his players' purchases, it's going to take several minutes that he might not have. And it could also be an extra barrier for new GMs who don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of all the items out there.

The other issue I see is that players are likely to "check out" of the end of the scenario because they're digging out their shopping lists, amending them based on what consumables they've used or what new items they found out about from the other players, and so on.

2/5

Here's how I have been doing it. As far as I know, this process meets the guidelines of the rules. Remember, it says you're supposed to sign the fully filled out sheets (which means after all items bought, math done, etc).

First, I always make sure my players understand that its best to plan their next few purchases in their character's progression. That way, once they have enough money, they know what they are going to buy next.

I generally hand out the blank chronicle sheets as I'm wrapping up the final fight. I think have the players fill out ALL the blanks, with the exception of the GM signature lines. This saves me a lot of time. I inform them that if they have any purchases or used any items, they need to add those to the chronicle sheet.

Usually, only 2 of the 6 players are buying anything non-mundane. And usually 1 of those 2 is something simple (a +1 or 2 weapon or shield...I know roughly how much those should cost). I simply eyeball those purchases, make sure they marked items used if using wands, double check the math (I just estimate in my head, I'm don't usually use a calculator), and then I sign. Again, since most people don't buy items, I get 4/6 done REALLY fast...and the other two take me about a minute each.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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Starfinder Superscriber

Here's how I did it when I first started GMing PbP games. We kept a "bookkeeping" thread where players would write down anything they purchased.

At the end of the game, I'd send them chronicle sheets with the basics filled out, but NOT signed. The players would fill out their other stuff, send it back to me, then I'd sign it, and send the signed one back to them. From reading my rules, this was my understanding of how it was supposed to work. The GM didn't initial each purchase, but the GM's signature at the bottom indicated the GM had seen the complete sheet, including purchases. That signature was the GM indicating he'd seen the purchases.

This meant several days after the end of the PbP of back and forth getting it all done.

Likewise, when I first started GMing face-to-face games, I'd do the same thing. I'd fill out the basics (gold, prestige, scenario #, etc.), and pass unsigned sheets out to players. They'd fill out the rest, write in any purchases and sales and expended items, and do all the accounting on the right. When that was done, I'd look it over, and sign it. This meant another half-hour at the end of the session as I did stuff and players waited, as players put in stuff they'd bought at the beginning and chose new stuff that they wanted to buy, etc, and as I signed it again.

Then, I discovered, nobody else does it that way. In online games, they fill out all the grey "GM" parts, sign it, and give you the sheet. You can do your own accounting later, and put on your own purchases, they don't need to see it, it's already signed.

Then I went to PaizoCon 2013, and discovered exactly the same thing. GMs handed out signed sheets that were blank except for the grey "GM only" bits. (They would, of course, cross out boons players didn't get and so forth.) One GM did make a point of initialing on the inventory line next to a potion I'd purchased and used during the scenario, and that surprised me, because I didn't know initials were necessary from the Guide, and I thought the signature at the bottom was what indicated all that was right. Interestingly, the sheet was already signed.

I've given in. I do it this way too. I felt like a chump because I was spending all this extra time making sure that sheets were fully filled out before I signed them, and I felt like an a!&~@%& because I was making my players go through that when no other GM did. Now, I just hand out sheets with the GM bit filled out and signed, and let players do their own accounting and write their purchases on it in their own time. This is not what the rules say I'm supposed to do-- but this is what I've observed every other GM doing, including GMs at PaizoCon with lots of stars.

The rules are at odds with what I have observed to be standard practice. This is not good, because it encourages people not to take the rules seriously. I fear that this added accounting is only going to make the rules more cumbersome, and as such is only going to further reduce respect for the written rules as there are more things in there that we're supposed to be doing that many (most?) people, including VOs and four-star GMs (from my experience at PaizoCon), don't bother doing.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Starfinder Superscriber

The TL;DR version of my previous post (and you have to go in there to get the details that justify it) is that:


  • The current system for end-of-game is already too cumbersome for standard practice and is widely ignored,
  • What it sounds like is being done with the inventory tracking sheets, while it might help players and audits, will only make the system more cumbersome

2/5

rknop wrote:

Then I went to PaizoCon 2013, and discovered exactly the same thing. GMs handed out signed sheets that were blank except for the grey "GM only" bits. (They would, of course, cross out boons players didn't get and so forth.) One GM did make a point of initialing on the inventory line next to a potion I'd purchased and used during the scenario, and that surprised me, because I didn't know initials were necessary from the Guide, and I thought the signature at the bottom was what indicated all that was right. Interestingly, the sheet was already signed.

The rules are at odds with what I have observed to be standard practice. This is not good, because it encourages people not to take the rules seriously. I fear that this added accounting is only going to make the rules more cumbersome, and as such is only going to further reduce respect for the written rules as there are more things in there that we're supposed to be doing that many (most?) people, including VOs and four-star GMs (from my experience at PaizoCon), don't bother doing.

You're right, rknop. A LOT of GMs..even experienced ones, are not even spot checking things. And when you ask them, they say, "They trust players."

Checking sheets isn't about trust and lack thereof. It's acknowleding that this is a complicated game, and we all make mistakes. Having a GM double check this stuff keeps those to a minimum. That's especially valuable in an organized play environment where we strive for balance. Furthermore, if no one checks, then people get lazy, or even cheat, making even larger variances.

To make matters worse, those GMs who do not check make life very, very difficult for those who do. Players get upset at cons or when they travel, and one of the GMs they play with check their sheets and tell them they are illegal for play.

We need to be somewhat consistent as a community, if we want our organized play to truly be organized.

As far as this tracking sheet...as someone who spots check sheets nearly every game, and does NOT sign sheets until they are fully filled out, I can tell you that this actually DOES make things easier in the long run, and, if used, will encourage better tracking and recording of used resources like charges on wands.

2/5

StarcryX wrote:
If people want to cheat they are going to, Nothing we do short of bringing a massive amount of work to catch a few people cheating (and frankly cheating themselves out of fun) will work.

I disagree...to an extent.

First, a vast majority of players do not cheat...not outright. But they do get lazy, forget to write things down, etc. Having this consistent, required form where consumables are recorded and consumption tracked will help bring consistency in that area.

Second, tracking sheets and random audits may not catch most deliberate cheating that takes place. But, it can certainly catch it from time to time. Just enforcing the old method I was able to call a couple out on their shenanigans. This new method is easier for me to do that. You're right. It's not completely fool proof. But deliberate cheaters often get greedy, and that leads to slip ups. Things like this absolutely help GMs and VO's to catch that a bit more often.

5/5 *

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Bonus thing I discovered while filling sheets last night:

I wrote in the source book of all the purchases as I was going. Made me double check I owned everything and have all those available come Gencon.

(for example, remembered that Spring-loaded wrist sheathes were not reprinted in UE, so gotta remember to bring my Adventurer's Armory)

Also this way if there is a question about one of my items it's also easy for me to remember where it is (I purchase some crazy stuff sometimes)

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Starfinder Superscriber

I agree that it would (I won't say "does", because as you admit most people don't do what you do) make checks far easier in the long run... IF GMs actually did what the rules say and only signed sheets once purchases were complete.

The problem is that GMs don't do that, so it's going to be a bigger nightmare now for the one GM who does, because he will have to make up for what no previous GM did.

And, we need to think about WHY GMs don't do what they're supposed to do. I propose that it is because it's already too much of a hassle. One solution might be enforcement, trying to get the GMs to do what they're supposed to do. But I think serious thought needs to be given to figuring out if there's another way to deal with the system, to have a way of checking what players are doing and catching mistakes. Experience has shown us that the current system is too much to ask-- most groups simply won't do what they're supposed to do at the end of every game.

Sovereign Court

RainyDayNinja wrote:
What if it's an item that the GM is unfamiliar with? Should he check the price and legality himself, or just trust the player? Should he make sure the player has the source for it? If a GM does his due diligence to verify all his players' purchases, it's going to take several minutes that he might not have. And it could also be an extra barrier for new GMs who don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of all the items out there.

Mike Brock has stated the players should have books open to the pages of the items they are purchasing.

Which actually would kill two birds with one stone in a sense. Players would need to show they have the source for the items they buy.

On the flip side of the coin, it will add time post session and as many have stated, time can be in short supply when you are playing at a place of business with set hours.

3/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

zylphryx wrote:
RainyDayNinja wrote:
What if it's an item that the GM is unfamiliar with? Should he check the price and legality himself, or just trust the player? Should he make sure the player has the source for it? If a GM does his due diligence to verify all his players' purchases, it's going to take several minutes that he might not have. And it could also be an extra barrier for new GMs who don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of all the items out there.

Mike Brock has stated the players should have books open to the pages of the items they are purchasing.

Which actually would kill two birds with one stone in a sense. Players would need to show they have the source for the items they buy.

On the flip side of the coin, it will add time post session and as many have stated, time can be in short supply when you are playing at a place of business with set hours.

So now we get players digging out their books and looking stuff up during the boss fight, instead of paying attention to the game and planning their turn. Great...

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

I can only think of one time when I'm GMing that a player has come up to me before the start of game to witness a purchase. He was a gunslinger and wanted to buy something like 200 paper cartridges. I also run gunslingers, so I was a bit shocked by the amount (which is why I remembered it), but it led to me talking things over with the player about gunslinger ammo advice. In the end, I think he bought 50 for that session, and was considering other options for his ammunition.

So, 2 points from that:

1. I've only run about 25 games, sure, but this is the only time I can think of that someone came to me looking to OK a purchase.

2. When you're witnessing a purchase, if you have time, you might ask the player about it. Especially with newer players, they might be falling into some traps that you can help them spot. If they still want to buy the thing, by all means let them. But use it as an opportunity to at least offer some guidance. And if you think you'll be GMing for them again, you'll know more about what you're up against.


rknop hits the nail on the head for online scenarios. Chronicles are already enough of a pain without form-fillable sheets; it's just going to be worse if you have to print/scan/mail a sheet multiple times like this.

Another point: I bet there won't be a form-fillable version of the inventory tracker, either. So people will resort to doing their own things for online play. Some people will print/scan repeatedly, some people will fill it in digitally (whether through adding their own forms or using Photoshop, etc.), some people will eschew the official sheet altogether and use text-based lists (because that's a lot more convenient digitally anyway).

Oh, and here's another - there's very little ability for showing the GM what exactly an item or thingamabobber does or how much it costs that doesn't involve a) using sources not from the Additional Resources list (i.e., d20pfsrd, Archives of Nethys, HeroLab, etc.), or b) showing off digital copies in ways that are probably borderline (if not totally) illegal.

And needless to say, if this is about cheating and accountability, well, it's going to be incredibly easy to edit these things for those who are so inclined anyway...

Sovereign Court 2/5 *

This thread made me curious, so I grabbed my rogue whom I've played since Gen Con 08 and checked and apparently only once has a GM put his initials on something I bought, which of all things was a 50gp bribe I paid out in a scenario.
This rule is something I have no idea of how it will be enforced at Gen Con, since as stated above, people are trying to run to the next event they paid for as soon as the scenario ends. And God forbid I have a terrible event like last year where we didn't end until 1am or so. Another 1/2 hour on that night to go over purchases would've caused my head to explode.


Check Mike Brock's latest word on the subject.

Initialling every purchase on the ITS is not going to be required.

Every purchase still needs to be listed on a Chronicle and approved by a GM.
The wording in the Guide is apparently going to be changed to include "before a session", so I suspect my standard plan will be to plan purchasing after the scenario, add it to the ITS, show it to the GM at the next game and then add it to the Chronicle for that session.

There's also been talk of a form-fillable version, which will be easier since it doesn't need to be initialed.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

GM Alice wrote:
Another point: I bet there won't be a form-fillable version of the inventory tracker, either.

Pretty sure that Vic stated that one is in the works as we write.

Silver Crusade 4/5

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Ok, I've given up on actually reading all this before posting. This thread is so busy that I just know I'll be ninja'd by at least 10 people. I don't care.

Big emphasis in a lot of the complaints here seems to be on people needing to do all this at the end of every session. I agree that doing it at the end of a session, when people haven't had time to think about what they want to buy, and you're in a rush to leave a closing store or get to your next convention slot, would be a pain in the @#$.

But that's why I'll buy nothing at the end of most sessions, do my shopping at home between games, then come to the next session with my purchases on the ITS, asking for my next GM to initial it.

If we can make this the standard (which may include asking Mike to add language to that affect in the Guide), then I think it'll just be 5 seconds per player of the GM initialing everybody's Inventory Tracking Sheets at the start of every session, which isn't a major inconvenience. Mike Brock has already said that a single initial next to a group of purchases is fine, instead of having to initial every line item on the sheet.

And if the GM wants to look things over in more detail to audit while doing this, or even just discuss the purchase with the player to give them advice as thistledown mentioned, then that's up to the GM.


That'd make things easier for online play, although if "initialling" these forms is basically just typing in your initials into the PDF file it's pretty much equally as honour based as the current system, except with more accounting...

(I personally stamp my online Chronicle sheets with a digitally written [via Wacom tablet] signature--wonder if the PDF would have the permissions to allow me to do this...)

Can we have form-fillable Chronicles too? Pretty please? :)

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Fromper wrote:

But that's why I'll buy nothing at the end of most sessions, do my shopping at home between games, then come to the next session with my purchases on the ITS, asking for my next GM to initial it.

If we can make this the standard (which may include asking Mike to add language to that affect in the Guide), then I think it'll just be 5 seconds per player of the GM initialing everybody's Inventory Tracking Sheets at the start of every session, which isn't a major inconvenience.

I don't know which thread it was in, but Mike already agreed to insert "before" into the "during or after the session" language in the Guide for exactly this purpose.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

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GM Alice wrote:

That'd make things easier for online play, although if "initialling" these forms is basically just typing in your initials into the PDF file it's pretty much equally as honour based as the current system, except with more accounting...

(I personally stamp my online Chronicle sheets with a digitally written [via Wacom tablet] signature--wonder if the PDF would have the permissions to allow me to do this...)

Can we have form-fillable Chronicles too? Pretty please? :)

There are a few reasons why form-fillable Chronicle sheets would be a bit tougher to implement, but that's something that I intend to explore a bit more following Gen Con.

3/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Fromper wrote:

Ok, I've given up on actually reading all this before posting. This thread is so busy that I just know I'll be ninja'd by at least 10 people. I don't care.

Big emphasis in a lot of the complaints here seems to be on people needing to do all this at the end of every session. I agree that doing it at the end of a session, when people haven't had time to think about what they want to buy, and you're in a rush to leave a closing store or get to your next convention slot, would be a pain in the @#$.

But that's why I'll buy nothing at the end of most sessions, do my shopping at home between games, then come to the next session with my purchases on the ITS, asking for my next GM to initial it.

If we can make this the standard (which may include asking Mike to add language to that affect in the Guide), then I think it'll just be 5 seconds per player of the GM initialing everybody's Inventory Tracking Sheets at the start of every session, which isn't a major inconvenience. Mike Brock has already said that a single initial next to a group of purchases is fine, instead of having to initial every line item on the sheet.

And if the GM wants to look things over in more detail to audit while doing this, or even just discuss the purchase with the player to give them advice as thistledown mentioned, then that's up to the GM.

But even if you do it before, at a Con (or a multi-slot game day, like where I ususally play), you can end up just as crunched for time before the scenario. I don't want to sit down at a table, have the GM roll in 5 minutes late for whatever reason, and try to get my ITS signed off just to be told "I don't have time. We need to get started, so we'll just do that after."

EDIT: In effect, I don't want my ability to purchase gear to depend on the GM's time management skills.

2/5

Indeed. I've just about given up on playing PFS online because I cannot think of a great way to meet the proper form requirements and/or an easy way to review character backup. It's something I'd like to help brainstorm when I have time and feel REALLY creative :)

Quote:
On the flip side of the coin, it will add time post session and as many have stated, time can be in short supply when you are playing at a place of business with set hours.

I teach scenario time management as part of my GM 101. At our game store, we start at 5.30 to 6pm, and MUST be out of the store by 10pm. The vast majority of the time, I finish 15 minutes within 9.15pm. This usually allows me at least 30 minutes to sign sheets and pack up. Keeping things moving, knowing when to call combat, etc...are critical in PFS game store and con settings.

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