But even if you do it before, at a Con (or a multi-slot game day, like where I ususally play), you can end up just as crunched for time before the scenario. I don't want to sit down at a table, have the GM roll in 5 minutes late for whatever reason, and try to get my ITS signed off just to be told "I don't have time. We need to get started, so we'll just do that after."
I thought Mike indicated that the ITS would not be signed off for items, it would just be the chronicle sheets?
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But even if you do it before, at a Con (or a multi-slot game day, like where I ususally play), you can end up just as crunched for time before the scenario. I don't want to sit down at a table, have the GM roll in 5 minutes late for whatever reason, and try to get my ITS signed off just to be told "I don't have time. We need to get started, so we'll just do that after."
Indeed. I mean, here's the thing. For some reason, when a GM perceives time is short, they automatically cut out reviewing sheets, handling purchases, having players complete chronicle sheets before signing etc., etc. Honestly, these should NOT be handwaved, IMHO. I'd rather cut out an optional encounter, or rush players through some of the RP or combat, rather than cut out the 15 minutes that the bookeeping requires, because this is organized play, and bookkeeping/documentation is part of the process of keeping this whole thing organized.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I'm kind of thinking that the entire set of ITS discussion threads needs to be locked, and a new one started that spells out the current state of things (incorporating the latest commentary from Mike addressing various concerns) so as to sort of "reboot" the conversation, as at this point it feels like nearly every complaint brought up has at least one component that's already been addressed somewhere in the massive mountains of posts. :/
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I'd rather cut out an optional encounter, or rush players through some of the RP or combat, rather than cut out the 15 minutes that the bookeeping requires, because this is organized play, and bookkeeping/documentation is part of the process of keeping this whole thing organized.
I understand this sentiment, however I am of the belief that when paperwork trumps play, something is wrong.
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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But even if you do it before, at a Con (or a multi-slot game day, like where I ususally play), you can end up just as crunched for time before the scenario. I don't want to sit down at a table, have the GM roll in 5 minutes late for whatever reason, and try to get my ITS signed off just to be told "I don't have time. We need to get started, so we'll just do that after."Indeed. I mean, here's the thing. For some reason, when a GM perceives time is short, they automatically cut out reviewing sheets, handling purchases, having players complete chronicle sheets before signing etc., etc. Honestly, these should NOT be handwaved, IMHO. I'd rather cut out an optional encounter, or rush players through some of the RP or combat, rather than cut out the 15 minutes that the bookeeping requires, because this is organized play, and bookkeeping/documentation is part of the process of keeping this whole thing organized.
With all due respect, your players play the game for the RP or the combat, not the paperwork. If PFS is going to continue to be a thing, we need to focus on the portions of the game that players and GMs enjoy - the actual game itself. Paperwork is necessary, but should not be done at the expense of other portions of the game.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Bonus thing I discovered while filling sheets last night:
I wrote in the source book of all the purchases as I was going. Made me double check I owned everything and have all those available come Gencon.
I arrived at that idea last night, as I was discussing the stricter verification of the rules on ownership of additional resources, and how to avoid people with only hard-copy books having to carry everything with them to every game. Any new purchases have to be shown on the inventory form; that would be the ideal place to indicate a legal source has been presented for anything found in an additional resource. That handles items. New spells are (supposed to be) already indicated on the chronicle sheet, with a GM initial to verify the spellcraft rule; in practice I don't see this very often, as most spell-casters have a high enough spellcraft bonus to make any check an automatic success.
This leaves traits and feats as the major category requiring verification. I'm still thinking about them.|
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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So now we get players digging out their books and looking stuff up during the boss fight, instead of paying attention to the game and planning their turn. Great...What if it's an item that the GM is unfamiliar with? Should he check the price and legality himself, or just trust the player? Should he make sure the player has the source for it? If a GM does his due diligence to verify all his players' purchases, it's going to take several minutes that he might not have. And it could also be an extra barrier for new GMs who don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of all the items out there.Which actually would kill two birds with one stone in a sense. Players would need to show they have the source for the items they buy.
On the flip side of the coin, it will add time post session and as many have stated, time can be in short supply when you are playing at a place of business with set hours.
No, While the GM is completing the Chronicle for the PP and XP, the player utilizes that few minutes to open a book to the item they want to purchase.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Another point: I bet there won't be a form-fillable version of the inventory tracker, either. So people will resort to doing their own things for online play. Some people will print/scan repeatedly, some people will fill it in digitally (whether through adding their own forms or using Photoshop, etc.), some people will eschew the official sheet altogether and use text-based lists (because that's a lot more convenient digitally anyway).
Incorrect. There should be one up by the end of the week.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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If we can make this the standard (which may include asking Mike to add language to that affect in the Guide), then I think it'll just be 5 seconds per player of the GM initialing everybody's Inventory Tracking Sheets at the start of every session, which isn't a major inconvenience. Mike Brock has already said that a single initial next to a group of purchases is fine, instead of having to initial every line item on the sheet.
Already added
No, While the GM is completing the Chronicle for the PP and XP, the player utilizes that few minutes to open a book to the item they want to purchase.So now we get players digging out their books and looking stuff up during the boss fight, instead of paying attention to the game and planning their turn. Great...What if it's an item that the GM is unfamiliar with? Should he check the price and legality himself, or just trust the player? Should he make sure the player has the source for it? If a GM does his due diligence to verify all his players' purchases, it's going to take several minutes that he might not have. And it could also be an extra barrier for new GMs who don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of all the items out there.Which actually would kill two birds with one stone in a sense. Players would need to show they have the source for the items they buy.
On the flip side of the coin, it will add time post session and as many have stated, time can be in short supply when you are playing at a place of business with set hours.
But that’s the thing, quickly flipping through the book while the GM writes out the chronicle sheets is not enough time to make purchases unless you know ahead of time what you want.
And at least speaking for myself, I don’t know. I have always liked to go over my character, peruse the books (and peruse as in not quickly) and see what I may want.
Maybe I’m just slow, but I’ve never liked to make quick purchases, especially if I am buying a pricey magic item.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Ok, I've given up on actually reading all this before posting. This thread is so busy that I just know I'll be ninja'd by at least 10 people. I don't care.
Big emphasis in a lot of the complaints here seems to be on people needing to do all this at the end of every session. I agree that doing it at the end of a session, when people haven't had time to think about what they want to buy, and you're in a rush to leave a closing store or get to your next convention slot, would be a pain in the @#$.
But that's why I'll buy nothing at the end of most sessions, do my shopping at home between games, then come to the next session with my purchases on the ITS, asking for my next GM to initial it.
If we can make this the standard (which may include asking Mike to add language to that affect in the Guide), then I think it'll just be 5 seconds per player of the GM initialing everybody's Inventory Tracking Sheets at the start of every session, which isn't a major inconvenience. Mike Brock has already said that a single initial next to a group of purchases is fine, instead of having to initial every line item on the sheet.
And if the GM wants to look things over in more detail to audit while doing this, or even just discuss the purchase with the player to give them advice as thistledown mentioned, then that's up to the GM.
But even if you do it before, at a Con (or a multi-slot game day, like where I ususally play), you can end up just as crunched for time before the scenario. I don't want to sit down at a table, have the GM roll in 5 minutes late for whatever reason, and try to get my ITS signed off just to be told "I don't have time. We need to get started, so we'll just do that after."
EDIT: In effect, I don't want my ability to purchase gear to depend on the GM's time management skills.
You don't have to get your ITS signed off, as has been mentioned numerous times in this thread. You make sure your purchases are placed on the Chronicle, make sure the ITS is correctly documented as to which Chronicle the 25+ GP purchase was made, and you are golden. No need to worry about your ability to purchase gear depend on the GM's time management skills.
So do it between scenarios...
And that’s what I do now. I was just responding to the point brought up of quickly trying to find what you want while at the table.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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No, While the GM is completing the Chronicle for the PP and XP, the player utilizes that few minutes to open a book to the item they want to purchase.So now we get players digging out their books and looking stuff up during the boss fight, instead of paying attention to the game and planning their turn. Great...What if it's an item that the GM is unfamiliar with? Should he check the price and legality himself, or just trust the player? Should he make sure the player has the source for it? If a GM does his due diligence to verify all his players' purchases, it's going to take several minutes that he might not have. And it could also be an extra barrier for new GMs who don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of all the items out there.Which actually would kill two birds with one stone in a sense. Players would need to show they have the source for the items they buy.
On the flip side of the coin, it will add time post session and as many have stated, time can be in short supply when you are playing at a place of business with set hours.
But that’s the thing, quickly flipping through the book while the GM writes out the chronicle sheets is not enough time to make purchases unless you know ahead of time what you want.
And at least speaking for myself, I don’t know. I have always liked to go over my character, peruse the books (and peruse as in not quickly) and see what I may want.
Maybe I’m just slow, but I’ve never liked to make quick purchases, especially if I am buying a pricey magic item.
Then, between scenarios, put the next items you wish to buy on your ITS sheet, before the session, show the GM you are purchasing the items, and at the end of the session, you or the GM can list those items from your ITS sheet directly onto the Chronicle. Since the GP value of the purchase is already listed on your ITS sheet, and you know what your next Chronicle number will be when you sit down, it should not take very long to transcribe the purchases on the ITS sheet directly to a Chronicle.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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So do it between scenarios...And that’s what I do now. I was just responding to the point brought up of quickly trying to find what you want while at the table.
Then you are ahead of the game. Place a sticky note, scrap sheet of paper, bookmark, or whatever in the pages where you are purchasing items. This allows you to open it with no time spent at the table looking for it while the GM is completing his or her portion of the Chronicle sheet.
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this is starting to get really intimidating in the scope of requirements for documentation and paperwork
I kinda want to play Pathfinder and GM it, rather than spend my time making sure everyone is attaching their cover sheets to their TPS reports
I will work at this
but from the overwhelming amount of discussion and the continual amount of rules it is becoming just that
work
I am down for the cause until the cause is not down for me
I do not want this to reach that point so I will take a deep breath and just read more until I feel I both understand all this and have a handle on it, both for my own understanding and the comfort and happiness of my players
who have absolutely no desire to read all this
Then you are ahead of the game. Place a sticky note, scrap sheet of paper, bookmark, or whatever in the pages where you are purchasing items. This allows you to open it with no time spent at the table looking for it while the GM is completing his or her portion of the Chronicle sheet.So do it between scenarios...And that’s what I do now. I was just responding to the point brought up of quickly trying to find what you want while at the table.
Ok, so just to be clear, the GM sign-off needed for whatever items I purchase is NOT their signature at the bottom of the chronicle sheet? I need the initials of the GM, near the items I purchased, as well?
If that has always been the case, I’ve been doing it wrong all along. I’ve only had the GM initial the base things. And ‘things’ such as EXP, prestige, Day Job checks or bribes…Ahem…business I’ve paid for in the session or spells I’ve acquired via a Spellcraft check. Never for items bought between sessions.
And if this is the case, does the GM need to initial for each item? Or just at the bottom of the item’s you’ve purchased.
If this has been answered in this thread, or another one, I apologize.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Then you are ahead of the game. Place a sticky note, scrap sheet of paper, bookmark, or whatever in the pages where you are purchasing items. This allows you to open it with no time spent at the table looking for it while the GM is completing his or her portion of the Chronicle sheet.So do it between scenarios...And that’s what I do now. I was just responding to the point brought up of quickly trying to find what you want while at the table.Ok, so just to be clear, the GM sign-off needed for whatever items I purchase is NOT their signature at the bottom of the chronicle sheet? I need the initials of the GM, near the items I purchased, as well?
If that has always been the case, I’ve been doing it wrong all along. I’ve only had the GM initial the base things. And ‘things’ such as EXP, prestige, Day Job checks or bribes…Ahem…business I’ve paid for in the session or spells I’ve acquired via a Spellcraft check. Never for items bought between sessions.
And if this is the case, does the GM need to initial for each item? Or just at the bottom of the item’s you’ve purchased.
If this has been answered in this thread, or another one, I apologize.
The GM signs the Chronicle at the bottom after confirming all the listed items purchased, as well as misc. "purchases" such as bribes and the like, in the note section equals the GP amount placed in the GP spent box (Box S as shown in the Guide).
The thing is Mike, it has ‘never’ worked that way in the sessions I’ve played. Whether playing at PaizoCon, GenCon or our local store.
When the scenario ends, the GM fills out the chronicle sheet, never asking what you may buy, and hands you the sheet with it already signed.
Now, if we buy things during the session, there have been times the GM writes them down and initials them, but he/she has never waited to sign the chronicle until confirming your purchases are completed.
Edit: And the point of my post isn't to rat on any GMs, but just to question if having the GM check make sure the purchases you are making are legit is needed.
I mean isn't that what a character audit would be for? Or looking at the new tracking sheet?
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The thing is Mike, it has ‘never’ worked that way in the sessions I’ve played. Whether playing at PaizoCon, GenCon or our local store.
When the scenario ends, the GM fills out the chronicle sheet, never asking what you may buy, and hands you the sheet with it already signed.
Now, if we buy things during the session, there have been times the GM writes them down and initials them, but he/she has never waited to sign the chronicle until confirming your purchases are completed.
Agreed. That might be the theory behind the current rules, but I've played PFS at half a dozen game stores in 3 states, along with about a dozen conventions, also in multiple states, and I've never seen it work that way. GMs pass out chronicle sheets already signed, and people take them home and write their purchases on them after the fact. Unless an audit is done (very rare - I've never been audited, personally), nobody ever checks to make sure the purchases are recorded properly after each session.
That's best case scenario of how it actually works today. Worst case scenario is the people who do all their purchasing in HeroLab or on their character sheet, and never bother to update their paperwork, so their chronicles are useless.
I've never seen a GM wait to sign a sheet for the players to finish filling it out. In fact, I've already signed the chronicle sheets that I plan on passing out when I GM at GenCon next week, just to cut down on paperwork time at the table.
I think when comparing the new rules to the old, we need to bear in mind which old rules aren't actually used. Trying to suddenly enforce any rule that was completely ignored by 95% of players and GMs will result in the same uproar as introducing a new rule, so just acknowledge that fact and plan accordingly.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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My two C-bills,
I agree with the anxiety about this. As other have said, the concerns of the GM being too pressed on time at the end of an event, then the next GM being too pressed for time at the beginning of the next…
It doesn’t help that, as many people have said, the previous version of the rule wasn’t enforced*. I’m guilty of that too.
To say it will lead to an ‘adjustment period’ is understating the complexity of it. When I did Origins this year, I only brought Ksenia and “GM credit blob of protoplasm” because I know that Talyn, Dex, and Rey are disorganized, and couldn’t survive an audit.
If management is strict on enforcing this rule going forward then it will mean 6 hour blocks of time most likely. Half hour before, half hour after, 5 hours of gaming.
This also hampers ‘credit babies’. I’m going to play Mayim soon. She’s level 5 of GM credit. So my first sheet is my *only* inventory sheet. If I have her statted out, and bring an inventory sheet to sign off on, and the GM is too late/busy/harried does that mean she’ll start the scenario naked? While she’s an extreme example, anyone with a GM credit as the last sheet will have that problem. Well, unless we can sign off on ourselves.
I’ll wait to see what 5.1 says, but I understand the feelings of doom (DOOM!) that some people are having.
*
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@Lamontius: I think when the Guide is re-released, you'll be happy with the result. :)
Jiggy I am trying to stay patient and calm and do things right, since all of this scrutiny is super-new to me and I am assuming is on the way to becoming more heavily enforced
but there is a continually increasing gap between what I have experienced in my PFS play/GMing and what is expected by those in charge, via the rules set out in this new guide and those before it
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If it's common practice for the GM to be too late, lazy, busy or harried to look over your inventory sheet for anything that looks obviously wrong, then it's a problem with the system, not the GM.
Once again my mind is 'bottled' by this. Not sure how a GM being late, lazy or harried could have anything to do with the system.
Give me your level 5 credit baby. I will take approximately 30 seconds to look it over and easily identify if anything is out of whack. If the GM doesn't have 30 seconds to do their job, they shouldn't be a PFS GM and should stick to home games.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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It will still be 5.0. The rough draft is up to provide people 10 days to look over what we are planning. After adjustments are made, it will be released and go into effect on Aug. 14.
I’ll wait to see what 5.1 says,
Ok, not 5.0a? 5.0.1? :-)
More seriously, thanks for taking the time to reply to all this mess.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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It will still be 5.0. The rough draft is up to provide people 10 days to look over what we are planning. After adjustments are made, it will be released and go into effect on Aug. 14.
I’ll wait to see what 5.1 says,
Ok, not 5.0a? 5.0.1? :-)
More seriously, thanks for taking the time to reply to all this mess.
No problem. I don't have anything else going on so might as well fill my day with all of this. ;-)
Give me your level 5 credit baby. I will take approximately 30 seconds to look it over and easily identify if anything is out of whack. If the GM doesn't have 30 seconds to do their job, they shouldn't be a PFS GM and should stick to home games.
I'm just curious Kyle, is this something you do every session? You look over the list the players want to buy and then sign their chronicle sheet?
If you do so, you are the exception to the rule, not the norm. At least in the games I have played, and I've probably played in almost 20 scenarios.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Give me your level 5 credit baby. I will take approximately 30 seconds to look it over and easily identify if anything is out of whack. If the GM doesn't have 30 seconds to do their job, they shouldn't be a PFS GM and should stick to home games.I'm just curious Kyle, is this something you do every session? You look over the list the players want to buy and then sign their chronicle sheet?
If you do so, you are the exception to the rule, not the norm. At least in the games I have played, and I've probably played in almost 20 scenarios.
I do that when I GM.
I do that when I GM.
Give me your level 5 credit baby. I will take approximately 30 seconds to look it over and easily identify if anything is out of whack. If the GM doesn't have 30 seconds to do their job, they shouldn't be a PFS GM and should stick to home games.I'm just curious Kyle, is this something you do every session? You look over the list the players want to buy and then sign their chronicle sheet?
If you do so, you are the exception to the rule, not the norm. At least in the games I have played, and I've probably played in almost 20 scenarios.
Heh
I kind of figured you did so, Mike. It would be pretty amusing if the PFS Coordinator ignored any of the rules, at least on a consistent basis. :)
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I'm just curious Kyle, is this something you do every session? You look over the list the players want to buy and then sign their chronicle sheet?
I do it more often than not. There are certain exceptions where I don't specifically do it (like in the middle of a multi-part where I have all the same players). I usually ask for their most recent chronicle and make sure it's all filled out before rewarding them with a new chronicle.
If you do so, you are the exception to the rule, not the norm. At least in the games I have played, and I've probably played in almost 20 scenarios.
For what you know, it's only an exception to the rule where you have played. I have played in different regions where this practice was the norm.
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Once again my mind is 'bottled' by this. Not sure how a GM being late, lazy or harried could have anything to do with the system.
Easy -- scenarios can be so long that they don't fit well into the slot. Instant harried GM.
Turning around and claiming that they "shouldn't be PFS games" is, quite frankly, deranged.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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After all, clearly Kyle believes the system can't be wrong. :-(And when the hell did I say that?
Right here.
You were abundantly clear that the system isn't the issue, it's the GM. Heck it's most GM's apparently, using the information on the forums as data.
Heck, any GM who doesn't/wouldn't take the time to double check every player's purchase before and after the game must be ' late, lazy, busy or harried '
Because the system can't be the problem, now, can it? You don't even allow for the possibility the system can be the problem.
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With all due respect, your players play the game for the RP or the combat, not the paperwork. If PFS is going to continue to be a thing, we need to focus on the portions of the game that players and GMs enjoy - the actual game itself. Paperwork is necessary, but should not be done at the expense of other portions of the game.But even if you do it before, at a Con (or a multi-slot game day, like where I ususally play), you can end up just as crunched for time before the scenario. I don't want to sit down at a table, have the GM roll in 5 minutes late for whatever reason, and try to get my ITS signed off just to be told "I don't have time. We need to get started, so we'll just do that after."Indeed. I mean, here's the thing. For some reason, when a GM perceives time is short, they automatically cut out reviewing sheets, handling purchases, having players complete chronicle sheets before signing etc., etc. Honestly, these should NOT be handwaved, IMHO. I'd rather cut out an optional encounter, or rush players through some of the RP or combat, rather than cut out the 15 minutes that the bookeeping requires, because this is organized play, and bookkeeping/documentation is part of the process of keeping this whole thing organized.
My players also play organized play expecting a certain balance between characters (based on levels and the such, of course). At one table I ran, one of the players had a 30 point build, and another had an illegal feat that was wicked powerful. These were things I quickly caught in doing roughly 10 minutes of spot checking. When you have overpowered players making other players feel totally worthless by contrast, it diminishes the experience every bit as much (if not more) than if the GM passed up an optional encounter.
Paperwork is part of Pathfinder and even more so in Pathfinder Society. I do absolutely take steps to maintain a balance. We spend a max of 30 minutes on paperwork (15 before reviewing and 15 minutes after reporting) and ~4 hours RP and combat. The game is still front and center.
For what you know, it's only an exception to the rule where you have played. I have played in different regions where this practice was the norm.
I certainly don't have the number of scenarios as some do, but I have played for three years now, and as I said, I've played at PaizoCon and GenCon, so it isn't just in the region where I am at.
It could be just coincidence that I have run into GMs that don't check, but as others have mentioned running into the same as myself, I am more liable to think not.
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After all, clearly Kyle believes the system can't be wrong. :-(And when the hell did I say that?Right here.
You were abundantly clear that the system isn't the issue, it's the GM. Heck it's most GM's apparently, using the information on the forums as data.
Heck, any GM who doesn't/wouldn't take the time to double check every player's purchase before and after the game must be ' late, lazy, busy or harried '
Because the system can't be the problem, now, can it? You don't even allow for the possibility the system can be the problem.
This is moronic. Let's pick a specific phrase and use it to apply to the whole system! Yay, now I can win the internet!
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Once again my mind is 'bottled' by this. Not sure how a GM being late, lazy or harried could have anything to do with the system.Easy -- scenarios can be so long that they don't fit well into the slot. Instant harried GM.
Or the GM can read the scenario first and realize that it's likely to run long and account for that in their preparation. But I'm sure ain't nobody got time for that.
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That's a huge problem to start a debate with. Less than 3% of the more than 50,000 PFS players post on these forums.using the information on the forums as data.
Yet despite this, Mike has said they've heard your feedback and are reviewing various language within the guide to accommodate said feedback. RAGE!
Yet despite this, Mike has said they've heard your feedback and are reviewing various language within the guide to accommodate said feedback. RAGE!
Here Kyle, have some bacon.
:)
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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After all, clearly Kyle believes the system can't be wrong. :-(And when the hell did I say that?Right here.
You were abundantly clear that the system isn't the issue, it's the GM. Heck it's most GM's apparently, using the information on the forums as data.
Heck, any GM who doesn't/wouldn't take the time to double check every player's purchase before and after the game must be ' late, lazy, busy or harried '
Because the system can't be the problem, now, can it? You don't even allow for the possibility the system can be the problem.
For the record, Kyle is one of the people who are constantly pushing me for change and improvement with the "system" through emails, PMs, Facebook correspondence, text messages, phone calls, carrier pigeons, and message spells. Just saying....