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For me, the RP disconnect was how the VO's who gave the missions ALWAYS seem to know what I was going to be doing or whom I would be speaking with. It was so meta! Evil! The fact that the majority of them boiled down to a mandatory skill checks (often with skills that few players took) didn't help. Sad to say, I won't miss them.
I will miss the faction missions. I will not miss the way many of them were implemented.
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My fav was
Mission "Recover this egg - be careful not to break it".
Me on finding egg "I use mage hand"
GM "Nope - has to be disable device or sleight of hand"
Me "Levitation then pack it? Unseen Servant?"
GM "No, has to do with one of those skills... I suppose its as much as packing the egg etc as picking it up... I think... Anyways thats what the book says".Or another favourite
Mission "Bring back a drawing of the cage used"
Me "No need. I'll bring back the whole actual cage. Its right here after all and I have a boat to put it on and everything"
GM "That doesn't work - need Knowledge: Engineering to sketch it or you fail"
Good news! Even if faction missions are going away, we can still use those valuable techniques with the main or secondary scenario mission. ;-)
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My fav was
Mission "Recover this egg - be careful not to break it".
Me on finding egg "I use mage hand"
GM "Nope - has to be disable device or sleight of hand"
Me "Levitation then pack it? Unseen Servant?"
GM "No, has to do with one of those skills... I suppose its as much as packing the egg etc as picking it up... I think... Anyways thats what the book says".Or another favourite
Mission "Bring back a drawing of the cage used"
Me "No need. I'll bring back the whole actual cage. Its right here after all and I have a boat to put it on and everything"
GM "That doesn't work - need Knowledge: Engineering to sketch it or you fail"
If I am remembering the portion of the Campaign Guidelines that deals with GMing, I think that GM's are given a caveat to reward creative solutions. In other words, some of these 'failures' may be due to ummm .. unimaginative GMing, rather than poor writing.
That all said, you aren't SUPPOSED to get every faction reward point. I've been at tables where some of the players act fairly entitled about getting them every time.
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So, we all knew and loved the one skill monkey in our faction that showed up at the table and got us all our faction point for little or no effort on our part.
So, if the new thing goes into effect and there is some relatively obscure bit of knowledge that one player figures out, does everybody get it at the table?
In other words, with individual missions going away, either everybody at the table gets one PP or everybody at the table gets two PP?
I don't really like that idea.
I agree that faction missions were a bit of a time drain, but they were sometimes fun.
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I will miss the faction missions. I will not miss the way many of them were implemented.Typical Taldor faction mission: DC 30 knowledge check on some obscure fact
Typical Andoran faction mission: Show up
At least, this is always the way it seemed to me :)
My experience with Andoran was:
Roll a die. On a 1-3 your mission will be to free any slaves you come across which you really should be doing without us even mentioning it. On a 4-6 you will have to assassinate someone with a 50% chance that someone is or was a Pathfinder Society member.
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My group has the same running joke about Andoran faction missions too. Funny!Typical Andoran faction mission: Show up
I remember one involving a DC25 Perception check at a moderately low tier. (Now, that's a check you can make if your Andoran paladin is a rogue-multiclassed halfling. Others...not so much.)
At least someone will have a decent Perception and maybe you can get them to help. It's the ones like "DC 15 Profession(Stone Mason)" that annoy me. Nope, can't try it untrained.I remember one involving a DC25 Perception check at a moderately low tier. (Now, that's a check you can make if your Andoran paladin is a rogue-multiclassed halfling. Others...not so much.)My group has the same running joke about Andoran faction missions too. Funny!Typical Andoran faction mission: Show up
Why don't my Craft(basketweaving) and Craft(Cheesemaker) ever come up!
A buddy of mine has a character with Profession: Lawyer, which actually came up one time.
Edit: And I believe you were the GM running, Fromper. :)
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I've a minor concern.
I like to play well rounded skill monkeys. Currently, the other players tend to like my characters to be around because they are very, very good at faction missions and are ALWAYS willing to help if asked (when you're a well rounded skill monkey having the barbarian like you is a GOOD thing).
The loss of faction missions will make the skill monkey somewhat less valuable at the table. How much less valuable remains to be seen. I don't want to end up in the position where other players resent my character for not pulling their weight.
My characters are sufficiently well built that I think it is really only a minor concern. They still (mostly) pull their weight in combat. And well rounded skill monkeys are often also quite useful in accomplishing the primary mission. But it is something that I will be watching with interest.
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I've a minor concern.
I like to play well rounded skill monkeys. Currently, the other players tend to like my characters to be around because they are very, very good at faction missions and are ALWAYS willing to help if asked (when you're a well rounded skill monkey having the barbarian like you is a GOOD thing).
The loss of faction missions will make the skill monkey somewhat less valuable at the table. How much less valuable remains to be seen. I don't want to end up in the position where other players resent my character for not pulling their weight.
My characters are sufficiently well built that I think it is really only a minor concern. They still (mostly) pull their weight in combat. And well rounded skill monkeys are often also quite useful in accomplishing the primary mission. But it is something that I will be watching with interest.
I have a 9th level character whose sole purpose was to complete factions missions for himself and everyone at the table (with the thought that everyone else could then focus more on the main mission).
The loss of faction missions will make the skill monkey somewhat less valuable at the table. How much less valuable remains to be seen. I don't want to end up in the position where other players resent my character for not pulling their weight.
If your characters best use was faction missions, there was likely a bigger problem. Skill monkeys have their uses, just don't ever forget combat and vice versa. Skill monkeys should still have their uses because skills will still be there, just not the ones about faction missions.
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I have a 9th level character whose sole purpose was to complete factions missions for himself and everyone at the table (with the thought that everyone else could then focus more on the main mission).My characters are sufficiently well built that I think it is really only a minor concern. They still (mostly) pull their weight in combat. And well rounded skill monkeys are often also quite useful in accomplishing the primary mission. But it is something that I will be watching with interest.
(warning: generalizing statements and opinions will follow)
Ugh, I don't mean to come off as insulting, but you've struck a pet peeve of mine. Why? Well, here's a brief explanation:
Locally we have 2 smaller PFS sub-scenes within the grand(ish) Finnish scene. The Tampere area one(where I play) roleplays the Shadow War up to a point, meaning that usually there are one or two Grand Lodge characters who habitually help people with faction missions, but characters otherwise act on their own, sink with their ships, etc.
Now the capitol scene plays it the other way, meaning there are Charisma 7 Int 7 barbarians with obscene Fame scores hopping about while the designated skill monkey/face does all the icky faction missionin'. And it leaves such a bad taste in my mouth, it does! There should be a tax, a penalty for leaving one's character vulnerable to failing the frequent social checks etc. that factions missions often require. How about not making your character as dumb as a brick outhouse with the social gravitas of a flatworm if you want those PP so desperately?
Not to mention, while the Shadow War for Absalom has not been relevant since the first two seasons, many factions still have wildly different goals in mind. For instance, Solveig(a Shadow Lodge character of mine), hates Zarta Dralneen and will not suffer to see her objectives realized. Helping some poor Chelaxian scrub with their faction mission - likely about fetching this or that sex toy or smut - would be unthinkable. And for me, helping with faction missions reeks of foregoing roleplaying in favor of making sure that Fame score keeps on rising. What can I say? It irritates me to no end.
/end of rant
PS. Not picking on you or anyone, just venting.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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@Muser - If you feel a given scenario is too combat-focused and gives no consequence to skills, you can write a review to that effect on that scenario's product page. The powers that be use that feedback.
If you feel a given GM is not following the rules for skills (for instance, by letting someone get by a social encounter based on the player's acting skill instead of by making the requisite skill checks), then politely bring up the concern with that GM. The system already includes penalties for dumped stats: fewer skill ranks, a -2 to social skills, etc.
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Now the capitol scene plays it the other way, meaning there are Charisma 7 Int 7 barbarians with obscene Fame scores hopping about while the designated skill monkey/face does all the icky faction missionin'. And it leaves such a bad taste in my mouth, it does! There should be a tax, a penalty for leaving one's character vulnerable to failing the frequent social checks etc. that factions missions often require. How about not making your character as dumb as a brick outhouse with the social gravitas of a flatworm if you want those PP so desperately?
How about if you not be a jerk about other peoples characters.
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MrSin, as long as I'm not a jerk to the players, I can probably stomach being a an a-hole to a few toons. They can take it.
Jiggy, while you have your facts straight vis-a-vis stat penalties etc, there's an issue - maybe not a systemic issue that needs looking into, but an issue nonetheless - when such penalties are not being actually applied. It's the charisma 22 Garudakin bard doing the talking after all, not the socially abysmal Oniblooded barbarian.
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MrSin, as long as I'm not a jerk to the players, I can probably stomach being a an a-hole to a few toons. They can take it.
Toons are owned by players. Your pretending you have a right to insult them and that your not at all insulting people at the moment. Smug attitudes like that aren't healthy.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Jiggy, while you have your facts straight vis-a-vis stat penalties etc, there's an issue - maybe not a systemic issue that needs looking into, but an issue nonetheless - when such penalties are not being actually applied. It's the charisma 22 Garudakin bard doing the talking after all, not the socially abysmal Oniblooded barbarian.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you then, because this just sounds like good teamwork. No one (that I've seen) complains when the 7 DEX fighter waits around while the 22 DEX rogue disarms the trap; or when the 7 STR wizard casts spells while someone else does all the up-close fighting; so why is it different if the 7 CHA barbarian stands quietly in the back while the bard does the talking? Or am I misunderstanding your complaint?
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
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Jiggy, while you have your facts straight vis-a-vis stat penalties etc, there's an issue - maybe not a systemic issue that needs looking into, but an issue nonetheless - when such penalties are not being actually applied. It's the charisma 22 Garudakin bard doing the talking after all, not the socially abysmal Oniblooded barbarian.Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you then, because this just sounds like good teamwork. No one (that I've seen) complains when the 7 DEX fighter waits around while the 22 DEX rogue disarms the trap; or when the 7 STR wizard casts spells while someone else does all the up-close fighting; so why is it different if the 7 CHA barbarian stands quietly in the back while the bard does the talking? Or am I misunderstanding your complaint?
Jiggy, I think the complaint was more akin to when the 22 CHA Andoran Bard makes the skill check for the 7 CHA Chelaxian Barabarian's Faction mission.
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Jiggy, I think the complaint was more akin to when the 22 CHA Andoran Bard makes the skill check for the 7 CHA Chelaxian Barabarian's Faction mission.
I still don't get the complaint. The barbarian ends up getting one of his prestige points because the bard helps him on the faction mission. The bard gets one of his prestige points because the barbarian kills stuff for the main mission. Neither one could get both prestige points alone, but together, they can. Where's the issue?
I give up. Different playing styles, I guess.
Exactly, its a different play style. You don't need to complain about people who don't harm you in the slightest.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
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I still don't get the complaint. The barbarian ends up getting one of his prestige points because the bard helps him on the faction mission. The bard gets one of his prestige points because the barbarian kills stuff for the main mission. Neither one could get both prestige points alone, but together, they can. Where's the issue?
Jiggy, I think the complaint was more akin to when the 22 CHA Andoran Bard makes the skill check for the 7 CHA Chelaxian Barabarian's Faction mission.
Some people put a lot of stock in the fact that the factions have differing goals, some of which are diametrically opposed. For example Chelaxians/Andorans and Taldans/Qadirans. Sometimes it is a stretch of the imagination that these people would help each other. Even tough Pathfinders are supposed to cooperate, techically faction goals are not Pathfinder business. I don't completely agree with Muser, but I can see where he is coming from.
Personally I am happy to see faction missions go away completely. Mostly due to the fact that they often add little or nothing to the story and especially from early season scenarios can be a cause of conflict between Pathfinders who are supposed to be cooperating. I sincerely hope that I have handed out my last faction missions (I am not GMing again until after the 15th). Once they clear up the wording in the Guide for adapting previous seasons I will know for sure.
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I still don't get the complaint. The barbarian ends up getting one of his prestige points because the bard helps him on the faction mission. The bard gets one of his prestige points because the barbarian kills stuff for the main mission. Neither one could get both prestige points alone, but together, they can. Where's the issue?
Jiggy, I think the complaint was more akin to when the 22 CHA Andoran Bard makes the skill check for the 7 CHA Chelaxian Barabarian's Faction mission.Some people put a lot of stock in the fact that the factions have differing goals, some of which are diametrically opposed. For example Chelaxians/Andorans and Taldans/Qadirans. Sometimes it is a stretch of the imagination that these people would help each other. Even tough Pathfinders are supposed to cooperate, techically faction goals are not Pathfinder business. I don't completely agree with Muser, but I can see where he is coming from.
It depends on the faction and the mission, of course. Some are meant to be secret, and no Chelaxian will help give a speech about the cause of Andoran liberty. But "Can you help me translate these runes?" or "Can you help me find something?" is innocent enough that the members of opposed factions don't even have to know that they're helping their faction's enemy.
And then there are those who don't care, like my Sczarni sorceress who joined the Sczarni specifically because she understands the value of having a network of associates who owe you favors. Why wouldn't she do favors for members of other factions, so that they'll owe her one? She actually would go so far as giving a speech about the cause of Andoran liberty, using her bluff instead of diplomacy, since she wouldn't actually believe a word of it. But having that Andoran Pathfinder owe her a favor? That's a cause she believes in!
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
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Agreed, it will definitely vary by faction, by the specific mission, and by the character. I did say sometimes it stretches the imagination.
In fact, I have an Andoran rogue who has become so opposed to the faction leadership that unless it was something he would do anyway he doesn't go out of his way to do the missions. Luckily there are usually other Andorans around to do the mission so he still earns some prestige. He is Andoran by birth so is unlikely to change to another faction*.
*Also since he died he doesn't actually have enough prestige to change to another faction!
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I like faction missions that give outside roleplaying opportunities. The Shadow Lodge and Szcarni missions in Way of the Kirin are good examples.
Other than that, they seem to be check-the-block 'check-or-fail' skill checks. More often than not my shift rerolls get used to succeed on faction mission checks.
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People locally learned to stop telling my Taldan characters to do faction missions for Andoran or Cheliax. I've noticed at least one table where those characters have manipulated my character into doing their faction mission without outright saying it. Finally, after a couple years, the system works!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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A buddy of mine has a character with Profession: Lawyer, which actually came up one time.
Edit: And I believe you were the GM running, Fromper. :)
I got full attacked for it, but
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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I think, however much I love the scenario otherwise, that some of the faction missions are nigh impossible for some low levelers
When I played it, Paul Mondoor (My Character) got his faction right off, though I didn't know I got the DC of the Diplomacy on the dot until after the game was done. Then I preceded to try and help two others with their missions.
I rolled low both times, sorry, no faction mission for you.
I felt really bad about it. Still think about it late at night, waking up... "Let me reroll that, PLEEEAAASSEEE!!!"