** spoiler omitted **The worst andoran faction mission is
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This is getting silly :)** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **The worst andoran faction mission is
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That is the problem, isn't it.
The whole Faction Missions issue is/was getting silly.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Disclaimer: this statement is based off having read but a single Season 5 scenario (The Glass River Rescue).
If this is the way of things for how fame is handled and what the new faction missions are like, I am truly excited. Both systems are awesome.
Developer
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Disclaimer: this statement is based off having read but a single Season 5 scenario (The Glass River Rescue).
If this is the way of things for how fame is handled and what the new faction missions are like, I am truly excited. Both systems are awesome.
Yay!
Oh, and yes, it (the faction missions/fame) is.
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Disclaimer: this statement is based off having read but a single Season 5 scenario (The Glass River Rescue).
If this is the way of things for how fame is handled and what the new faction missions are like, I am truly excited. Both systems are awesome.
Gah ! I was sad about losing faction missions and wanted to be upset and complainy about it, but someone I greatly respect likes it....
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Gah ! I was sad about losing faction missions and wanted to be upset and complainy about it, but someone I greatly respect likes it....Disclaimer: this statement is based off having read but a single Season 5 scenario (The Glass River Rescue).
If this is the way of things for how fame is handled and what the new faction missions are like, I am truly excited. Both systems are awesome.
Two things:
1 - I've read through the other two scenarios, as well, and am equally impressed. Keep in mind that I am a player who enjoys the concept that the decisions I make will impact the future of the campaign. If you enjoy the same concepts in a role playing campaign, you'll like these changes, too.
2 - You respect me? O.o
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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That's a good sign then. If the ideas proposed are well implemented, then I can live without faction missions and the "secret" sub-goal.
To be clear: there ARE faction missions. Each faction has one. You just won't find a chance to touch on an Andoran (or Osirion/Chelaxian/Sczarni/etc) mission in every single adventure. But when you do, and if you're playing the right character, you can jump on it and have fun with it. Plus you get a sweet bonus (far more interesting than a lousy Fame Point, I might add).
The Fame you earn is by completing the mission (one point) and then by completing some or all of a series of secondary goals (the second point), which look like they will impact the overall story for the future scenarios.
Very, very cool.
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I love having an effect on the game.
I also love when faction missions were done well. They added flavor to your charcter for the scenarios. Now writing 10 good factions missions for each scenario I imagine can not be easy. As we can see some missions are garbage(win the scenario for your PP). I also enjoy the player on player RP for faction missions. I have had many memorable moments doing missions with other players and such.
I will still hand out and roleplay faction missions for the older seasons. If the players wish to play them I will gladly let them enjoy them.
Drogon, I respect you immensly. If you say the new ideas are good. Then I trust they are. So now I will have to wait until next friday when I play my first season 5 to find out.
But if you are wrong, I am so coming back upset and complainy...
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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As I work on prepping one of the new scenarios, I am a bit torn. Two of the faction missions are excellent - they are extremely flavorful and appropriate. The remaining one...I see no earthly cognizable way for a player to understand that they were to do this. Eh. It's a good direction, but I fear it may need more finesse.
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Developer
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As I work on prepping one of the new scenarios, I am a bit torn. Two of the faction missions are excellent - they are extremely flavorful and appropriate. The remaining one...I see no earthly cognizable way for a player to understand that they were to do this. Eh. It's a good direction, but I fear it may need more finesse.
See my response in your GM thread. Finesse is on the way, so to speak.
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I just read scenario 5-02. I also really like the new faction mechanics.
But I do have a question.
Does the GM just flat out state the general goal for those factions that have faction specific missions? Mot the details but the general goal. Or are the characters supposed to just intuit it?
In 5-02 I think only one of the faction missions is something that I'd expect Players to be able to realize without moderately explicit instructions.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I'm going to try to do all this justice without spoiling things or being too complicated. Here goes:
I love having an effect on the game.
I also love when faction missions were done well. They added flavor to your character for the scenarios...I also enjoy the player on player RP for faction missions. I have had many memorable moments doing missions with other players and such.
I, too, was a fan of the faction missions, especially as they existed in Seasons 1 and 2. I was worried that their departure would adversely affect the feel of this campaign. I really liked the identity it gave characters and occasionally liked the interplay between opposing factions. I have to admit that often enough it was distracting, however.
I think, considering what I read, you'll actually have a chance to do MORE of that interplay. Moreover, you'll have a chance to allow your character to directly OPPOSE certain factions. If an Andoren isn't sitting at the table with you, and you are playing your Chelaxian character, and you spot what you think is an Andoren mission hook, you can gleefully sabotage it to your heart's content. It'll be awesome in a whole 'nother way. Please don't do this when an Andoren is actually at the table, of course (still no PvP), but man, when there isn't...
I will still hand out and roleplay faction missions for the older seasons. If the players wish to play them I will gladly let them enjoy them.
And you should. Better: you'll be able to pick and choose when they're really appropriate, I think. You can happily put away the Andoran "kill" mission, for instance, and not inflict those on the Andoren paladin that sat down for this game.
Drogon, I respect you immensly. If you say the new ideas are good. Then I trust they are. So now I will have to wait until next friday when I play my first season 5 to find out.
But if you are wrong, I am so coming back upset and complainy...
I wouldn't expect any less. I always enjoy the chance to be proven wrong. (-:
So, Drogon, just spit-balling examples here, faction missions are more like the retirement scenarios in reward (Not THAT good, obviously, but better than 1 PP) and also a bit more in-depth also like retirement or the whole
<<spoiler omitted>>
In a nutshell: yes.
The secondary goals are not just one secret goal but a series, at least, in some of the new scenarios? That is nicer than the old way of "Fail a obscure skill check? Too bad!" with some options to pull the goal up out of the gutter of defeat and sadness.
Secondary goals, from what I read, are goals that are not intrinsic to the successful completion of the scenario.
In other words: you found the artifact you were looking for? Excellent. You got your 1 XP and one of your Fame points. But did you also find out that there is another entrance to the complex that the Society will be able to use now that the first entrance has been collapsed by the fight with the bad guy? Good, you got a second fame point, for going above and beyond the needs of the scenario. And now we'll be able to send future teams into that complex to explore it further.
And, yes, there is more than one secondary goal (at least in the one I read closely), so you have more than one chance to earn that second point.
Affecting the story could be neat. Of course, if you go one way but the campaign goes another, it might feel odd to you, but that's Organized Play for you.
This, of course, is unavoidable. But I think it'll still make sense in the long run.
I'm intrigued and no longer worried like I was at the end of the Know Direction podcast.
No need to elaborate if it voids a confidentiality thing you have.
I'll probably hand faction missions out still, like you Fin.
Hopefully this helped a little more.
And hopefully I didn't break any confidentiality. If I did, I was unaware of it, and have more access than I knew.
PS - I only have the scenarios because I'm running them at a convention. I'm posting this stuff because I want to put it in words from the viewpoint of a fellow player who is seeing this for the first time. I hope it simply puts to rest any unease and doesn't create more of a firestorm.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I just read scenario 5-02. I also really like the new faction mechanics.
But I do have a question.
Does the GM just flat out state the general goal for those factions that have faction specific missions? Mot the details but the general goal. Or are the characters supposed to just intuit it?
In 5-02 I think only one of the faction missions is something that I'd expect Players to be able to realize without moderately explicit instructions.
I think this is up to us as GMs to get right. I think we should have a printout of what each factions' goals for the season are and we should have these handy for people to review when we sit down.
Then, I think it is important that we learn how to get a player to spot his chance at a mission, and make sure to give him the opportunity to seize that chance.
I know I will be making this a big part of my prep. And not just for the reason that a faction player will want to get his kudos. I will also be prepping this for the reason that I listed above: I want that Silver Crusade guy to have the chance to get in there and mess with the Sczarni smuggling network he just discovered when he realizes there is no Sczarni at the table. I think that would be fun for him (and for me as a GM).
I just read scenario 5-02. I also really like the new faction mechanics.
But I do have a question.
Does the GM just flat out state the general goal for those factions that have faction specific missions? Mot the details but the general goal. Or are the characters supposed to just intuit it?
In 5-02 I think only one of the faction missions is something that I'd expect Players to be able to realize without moderately explicit instructions.
This is what I have been concerned about when reading about the fame/prestige system change.
The faction hand-outs certainly have had their flaws at times, but one thing I liked about them is you knew what you needed to do, because you had the handout in front of you.
I worry a bit on these new missions in gaining fame in I could miss completely what the mission is and not even know it until the GM wraps up the scenario.
I have no issues failing prestige points if that is in the cards that day, we all have bad roll days. But I at least want to always know what I need to do, and not fail it just because I completely missed the mission.
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Developer
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A link to the other thread about whether or not faction missions will be unclear.
The aim is that faction goals will not be excessively cryptic. That said, there may be times that in pursuing one's faction goal, a Pathfinder will discover something unexpected.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Hobbun: As I prep my current scenario, I should let you know that your faction mission will result in a boon, and that the whole party needs the secondary objective in order to get 2 PP. The boons, however, are quite nice and are well deserving of the effort spent in solving your faction mission. Spotting them, however, can be a tad challenging if you haven't read up on your factions' goals recently.
As for the secondary mission, in the single scenario that I am prepping, it is fairly obvious.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I just read scenario 5-02. I also really like the new faction mechanics.
But I do have a question.
Does the GM just flat out state the general goal for those factions that have faction specific missions? Mot the details but the general goal. Or are the characters supposed to just intuit it?
In 5-02 I think only one of the faction missions is something that I'd expect Players to be able to realize without moderately explicit instructions.
This is what I have been concerned about when reading about the fame/prestige system change.
The faction hand-outs certainly have had their flaws at times, but one thing I liked about them is you knew what you needed to do, because you had the handout in front of you.
I worry a bit on these new missions in gaining fame in I could miss completely what the mission is and not even know it until the GM wraps up the scenario.
I have no issues failing prestige points if that is in the cards that day, we all have bad roll days. But I at least want to always know what I need to do, and not fail it just because I completely missed the mission.
Hobbun, your fame is tied to your accomplishments with the Society. 1 point for the overt mission that was assigned to you, 1 extra point for secondary objectives you can complete within the mission.
Your faction will give you additional goodies if you spot your chance within the mission to further their goals, and you succeed at it. I did not see where fame was tied to this.
Drogon,
That is why I was specifying 'prestige points' and 'fame' in my post, as I know there is a difference between faction missions and gaining prestige points, they are not one in the same now.
I was specifically referring to the secondary mission for my 2nd PP in not wanting it to be vague, not my 'faction mission' for the nice boon.
Edit: And John, thanks for the link to the other thread, will be looking for that blog on Monday.
2nd Edit: I see why everyone made reference to faction missions from my post, as I quoted pauljathome's post on the matter. I was reading that he was making reference to the secondary mission, my mistake.
But my original point still stands, I hope the secondary missions are not too vague, but from your responses, they don't sound like it will be that difficult to pick up.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Drogon,
That is why I was specifying 'prestige points' and 'fame' in my post, as I know there is a difference between faction missions and gaining prestige points, they are not one in the same now.
I was specifically referring to the secondary mission for my 2nd PP in not wanting it to be vague, not my 'faction mission' for the nice boon.
I suspect I will get tripped up by that distinction forever. d-:
I don't think it's vague. Has the potential to not be earned? Yes. More than in the past, I think the "proper" progression of 75% PP is going to be the norm. But I don't think you will feel like you screwed something up that you shouldn't have when you don't earn that second point. At the end of the scenario you'll ask, "So, what should we have done to get the second point?" Your GM will tell you something along the line of, "Make sure the dragon didn't get away." And you will think to yourself, "Um, pretty pleased with having convinced him to not eat me, thanks."
Hopefully, because it didn't hinge on a DC 20 sleight of hand that you could never make with your 2HF barbarian, it will make more "sense" that you missed that extra point every now and then.
I don't think it's vague. Has the potential to not be earned? Yes. More than in the past, I think the "proper" progression of 75% PP is going to be the norm. But I don't think you will feel like you screwed something up that you shouldn't have when you don't earn that second point. At the end of the scenario you'll ask, "So, what should we have done to get the second point?" Your GM will tell you something along the line of, "Make sure the dragon didn't get away." And you will think to yourself, "Um, pretty pleased with having convinced him to not eat me, thanks."
Eh, that doesn't make me too feel too good, either. I don't expect to finish every faction mission, but I've never liked the 'expected 75% completion' ratio, either. To me, that is too low, at least for what the fame levels (for gold) are set at. When you are talking about character at 10th level who has a differential of 16 Fame, that is a lot.
So that it will be more difficult now to attain that 2nd point isn't all that encouraging.
Hopefully, because it didn't hinge on a DC 20 sleight of hand that you could never make with your 2HF barbarian, it will make more "sense" that you missed that extra point every now and then.
Well that is good at least. As I said, bad rolls happens sometimes, but when you were given a faction mission where only one skill can be used, it's a trained skill, and you don't have it, that is a bit frustrating.
I at least want to be able to attempt the roll. So I'm glad that is changing.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Maybe I'm wrong on the 75% number. After all, the "expected" progression has ALWAYS been 75%, and I'm pretty sure I don't have a PC with less than 95%. I have a couple with 100%.
I suspect this will go the way much of the past stuff went. Instead of just letting it play out, the GM I cited in my example above is going to give you the hairy eyeball: "Are you SURE you want to let the dragon leave? I mean, I dunno, seems like it would be bad to let that thing loose to terrorize the countryside."
That, and some players are going to get really good at sussing out secondary objectives and making sure they leave no stone un-turned. I can already envision what one of the guys in my area is going to be like. In all honesty, it's something I'm going to have to curb.
Still, having read through these things, I think this is something you'll be okay with, Hobbun. You can always do like Finlanderboy said he'd do, though: come back here and tell me if I'm wrong. I'm okay with that.
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Well I think this new procedure might make poor DMs even worse.
Playign the disappeared, the DM was very poor at describing the situation.
You get Dms that explain/understand things poorly and these missions will effect a whole table vs one person. But I am speculating.
Drogon, but no means would I blame you(not sure if you took it that way). I would just voice my opinion I do not like it and why. I an attempt to change the game so it is more enjoyable.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well I think this new procedure might make poor DMs even worse.
Playign the disappeared, the DM was very poor at describing the situation.
** spoiler omitted **You get Dms that explain/understand things poorly and these missions will effect a whole table vs one person. But I am speculating.
Drogon, but no means would I blame you(not sure if you took it that way). I would just voice my opinion I do not like it and why. I an attempt to change the game so it is more enjoyable.
I think it will make poor GMs better. Why? Because we as players will insist that they get better so that we don't miss out on opportunities to have fun and/or make our characters better.
I also think we as players will be more likely to keep our fellow players informed. When I said I was going to have a cheat sheet as a GM that I would make sure to use to remind players about what was going on, I realized that there was no reason I couldn't do that as a player, as well.
As GMs we always sit down and ask, "Does everyone know what they're playing, yet?" Just add, "Are you aware that this adventure provides specific opportunities to the Chelaxian, Sczarni and Taldoran factions?"
That's not hard. And, from the player side, it's not hard to ask the GM at the beginning of the game which factions the scenario pays attention to so you can plan properly (if you don't already know).
My opinion, of course.