As mentioned in another thread, there is no apparent love for Crossbows. Or in the case of that thread, slings.
Sure, characters and NPCs are more likely to be proficient in the use of a crossbow, as it is a Simple weapon as opposed to the bow being a Martial weapon. Repeating crossbows are kind of cool, but they are an exotic weapon, even though in my opinion they should transfer the proficiency benefit that a Composite bow borrows from its similar weapon.
Anyway, griping aside, I was wondering how adding two modifications to crossbows would affect the game. They would fire less rapidly than a bow, but they would, in my opinion, be more viable of a weapon choice in the game.
1) Double the damage dice. This is a simple and straightforward fix.
2) Choose a strength for the crossbow. Basically this gives the crossbow the benefit of a composite bow. The different sizes would have to have strength ranges, or at least the effects of differing strength scores would mimic those differences. For example, if it is of your strength or a lower strength it is like a light or hand crossbow (move action to reload), if it is higher than your strength it is like a heavy crossbow (full round action to reload).
Given the above, a 12 Strength Light Crossbow would do 2d8 +1 damage, and a heavy crossbow with 20 Strength would do 2d10+5. This makes the weapon a viable choice.
You know, at first this bothered me, but then when you realize that strength somehow improves your ability to attack things, I think I like this more.
Adding Str is perfectly sensible. Doubling the dice is a bit much, especially at low levels.
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How about just give crossbows the ability to pierce armor.
Mechanically this would work like firearms: attacks are made against touch AC within the first range increment. If you think that's still too good, make it 30 feet.
Crossbows are already a viable choice. They make a great back up weapon for spellcasters who don't have martial weapons, and they are also good for pcs with a meh strength .
Thus, as far as game balance goes, they are fine.
And, oddly, this matches actual Irl values too.
No changes needed. Realistic and balanced.
Adding Str is perfectly sensible. Doubling the dice is a bit much, especially at low levels.
Yeah. I'd say a better way to handle shifting crossbows to a one big hit model is to work off something similar to Vital Strike, where you get extra dice as your BAB goes up.
Come to think of it, if the crossbow had some sort of weapon quality that boosted its effectiveness when used with Vital Strike, that would do a lot to make it more attractive in a one big hit build.
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Crossbows are already a viable choice. They make a great back up weapon for spellcasters who don't have martial weapons, and they are also good for pcs with a meh strength .
If, to you, "viable" means "Is only good as a backup weapon for people who do not need weapons and people with negative Str scores (see previous)", the only thing I can say to you is that your definition is far different from the norm.
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Crossbows are already a viable choice. They make a great back up weapon for spellcasters who don't have martial weapons, and they are also good for pcs with a meh strength .If, to you, "viable" means "Is only good as a backup weapon for people who do not need weapons and people with negative Str scores (see previous)", the only thing I can say to you is that your definition is far different from the norm.
I agree with you that the crossbow is inferior to the bow under RAW. Any character who can use a bow effectively will most like;y prefer a bow to s crossbow.
The crossbow has its uses, but it is largely a niche weapon. It is generally used only by characters who cannot use a bow. But it is a viable choice for them. It is, after all, usually a better choice than a sling. And if you take the Rapid Reload feat, you can get iterative attacks with it.
Crossbows are already a viable choice. They make a great back up weapon for spellcasters who don't have martial weapons, and they are also good for pcs with a meh strength .If, to you, "viable" means "Is only good as a backup weapon for people who do not need weapons and people with negative Str scores (see previous)", the only thing I can say to you is that your definition is far different from the norm.I agree with you that the crossbow is inferior to the bow under RAW. Any character who can use a bow effectively will most like;y prefer a bow to s crossbow.
The crossbow has its uses, but it is largely a niche weapon. It is generally used only by characters who cannot use a bow. But it is a viable choice for them. It is, after all, usually a better choice than a sling. And if you take the Rapid Reload feat, you can get iterative attacks with it.
The problem with the crossbow is, it's niche is "people without access to bows who don't care about being good with ranged weapons."
When you get to the point of investing feats into things like Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery, you'd probably be better served by just spending one feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency to get the longbow (and a bunch of other weapons).
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Look the big problem is that crossbows have basically been nerfed to the point of side arm at best under current rules. I mean it's easier to build a fighter focused on using spears in current rules then a crossbowmen which is arguably a damn shame. This gets even more annoying once you start looking into the actual history of crossbows and how much they fundamentally changed warfare, they were the weapon that for the first time allowed commoners to kill kings they were the original colt equalizer. Then once you factor in the mercenary bands that roamed about throughout history focusing specifically on crossbows it's an absolute shame that the option gets so little love when so many people actually want to see a well thought out and balanced option.
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There are more serious issues with crossbows vs Bows.
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1. Requires Rapid Reload or Exotic Weapon Prof (Repeating Crossbow) to shoot more then once in a round.
2. Can't use Many-shot with Crossbows
3. Can't add Str to damage
4. Can only fire 5 shots with a Repeating Crossbow before a full round action is required to reload.
5. Bows are more iconic for rangers. What's more iconic means more future magic-item possibilities, and more variety of interesting magical bows and arrows than of magical crossbows and enchanted bolts.
Advantages of Crossbows.
1. Crossbows have longer range
2. Crossbows are unaffected by Strength, ignoring penalties.
3. Crossbows count as Simple weapons
4. Crossbows critical-hit range is superior to bows (19-20X2)
5. Some Crossbows can be used One handed.
Hand crossbow: Can be fired one-handed with no penalty, dual-wielded as if with two light weapons. Reloading is a move action.
Light crossbow: Can be fired one-handed with a -2 penalty, dual-wielded as if with two light weapons (one-handed firing penalty stacks with the dual-wield penalties). Reloading is a move action.
Heavy crossbow: Can be fired one-handed with a -4 penalty, dual-wielded as if with two one-handed weapons (one-handed firing penalty stacks with the dual-wield penalties). Reloading is a full-round action.
Repeating crossbow: A repeating crossbow is hand, light or heavy, and has the same penalties for firing one-handed and dual-wielding as its non-repeating counterpart. Reloading is a free action when loading from the 5 round clip; replacing the 5 round clip is a full-round action.
Every kind of crossbow requires both hands to reload: you can fire them with a single hand, but you'll have to drop or stow whatever you have in your other hand to reload. This includes reloading a repeating crossbow from the clip.
Crossbow Mastery (Combat) changes the time required for you to reload any type of crossbow is reduced to a free action, regardless of the type of crossbow used. You can fire a crossbow as many times in a full attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow. Reloading a crossbow for the type of crossbow you chose when you took Rapid Reload no longer provokes attacks of opportunity.
Its prerequisites are feats you would take anyways (Dex 15, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot), but its another feat tax.
Conclusion:
The only way to balance crossbows without seriously overpowering duel welding users are as follows in my opinion.
1. The extra Feat tax will just have to be as is. Sorry but it is what it is.
2. Add a feat :
Double Tap (Combat)
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a repeating crossbow 2 handed, your first attack fires two bolts as you quickly fire twice. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each bolt, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each bolt.
3. Add a feat:
Precise Marksman (Combat)
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, base attack bonus +3.
Benefit: When using a crossbow 2 handed, you add your Dex bonus to damage
4. Add the following Item:
Masterwork bolt clip - This bolt clip carries mini metal bolts that can be fired rapidly from a repeating crossbow. The clip size is extended to 20 bolts but the damage die of the crossbow bolt is reduced by one(D10 becomes D8, ect)
This will give a 2 handed repeating crossbow user equal footing with a bow. You get to use a crossbow with dex to damage about as well as a bow, but at the cost of 3 or 4 extra feats. A good trade off. Its limited to non duel welding users, and its got a reduced bolt damage.
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With you on the feat taxes, it is literally the biggest hurdle that inhibits the crossbow from being comparable. On top of that it keeps you from grabbing up feats that will help a crossbowman specifically like deadly aim. Also I'm with you on larger clip sizes, as it stands the repeaters cannot even benefit from rapid reload which is just insulting at this point. Now if you are looking for a decent work around the crossbow combat style gives you some okay feat relief.
Now if you are looking for a decent work around the crossbow combat style gives you some okay feat relief.
It doesn't help much... A Crossbow Ranger still deals less damage than a archer Ranger who had his Str score reduced by -4, a switch-hitter Ranger who only uses longbows as secondary weapon, and even a freaking Bard with a bow!
And that's despite the fact that he's spending 5gp a shot with alchemical bolts...
Crossbows are that bad.
not really, if you have any strength at all.
Well, a 12 str almost cancels out. So, in order for you to be better with a LB, you have to be pushing a 14 at least.
That leaves out: Sorcs, alchemists, Wizards, clerics, finesse rangers, druids, witches, Summoners, bards & oracles. Well, I have seen some 14 str bard builds, so let us say most bards. Thus about half the classes wont have a str enough to make a LB better.
It's not a "niche" if at least half the classes, and more like 2/3rd the PC's would make just as good use of a CB as a LB.
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Crossbows are already a viable choice. They make a great back up weapon for spellcasters who don't have martial weapons, and they are also good for pcs with a meh strength .
Thus, as far as game balance goes, they are fine.
And, oddly, this matches actual Irl values too.
No changes needed. Realistic and balanced.
Yeah. Realistic. Cause people OFTEN in real life run through a hail of cross bow bolts, and only suffer fleshwounds from 10-15 crossbow bolts IN THE CHEST with completely unblemished armor that never ever ever gets any weaker at all, DESPITE the 10-15 bolts that are currently PROTRUDING from your CHEST.
Oh, and they /all/ magically disappear the moment they deal damage. Seriously, when have you EVER worried about those bolts or arrows in your REALISTIC FIGHTER SIMULATOR GAME?
Not so Realistic now is it? Nevermind situations like.. Oh I don't know.. DUNGEON CRAWLING where a crossbow would be a much finer weapon to use than a longbow. WHICH do you think is better in a cramped inclosed space realistically? A crossbow or a longbow? REALISTICALLY a cross bow is. But her in pathfinder, you could fire your longbow from a broom closet with no penalty. Because the bloody game isn't realistic at all.
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not really, if you have any strength at all.
Well, a 12 str almost cancels out. So, in order for you to be better with a LB, you have to be pushing a 14 at least.
That leaves out: Sorcs, alchemists, Wizards, clerics, finesse rangers, druids, witches, Summoners, bards & oracles. Well, I have seen some 14 str bard builds, so let us say most bards. Thus about half the classes wont have a str enough to make a LB better.
It's not a "niche" if at least half the classes, and more like 2/3rd the PC's would make just as good use of a CB as a LB.
Incorrect!
Bulls Str, or Belt of Physical Might. BAM from 10 to 16 str.
If I /ever/ made a character who /seriously/ used range, he wouldn't use a crossbow. That is what makes a weapon really viable or not. Is if you could seriously use it as a weapon.
And /that/ is where crossbows fail. Trying to make someone who seriously uses a crossbow takes far too much work.
What you're currently trying to do is say that ACID SPLASH is a perfectly viable spell to take on enemies at all levels, and its ability matches that of a FIREBALL because ACID SPLASH is more simple to use and most arcanes get it.
They are not. One is 3rd level spell, the other 0 level spell. YOU DO NOT use acid splash as a primary weapon spell after a few levels. EVER. It is the spell you use when you run out of all other spells.
Well, a 12 str almost cancels out. So, in order for you to be better with a LB, you have to be pushing a 14 at least.
That leaves out: Sorcs, alchemists, Wizards, clerics, finesse rangers, druids, witches, Summoners, bards & oracles. Well, I have seen some 14 str bard builds, so let us say most bards. Thus about half the classes wont have a str enough to make a LB better.
So:
Spellcaster, guy who's probably using Bombs most of the time anyway, Spellcaster, Spellcaster, really weird suboptimal build, spellcaster, spellcaster, spellcaster, spellcaster, spellcaster.
It's not a "niche" if at least half the classes, and more like 2/3rd the PC's would make just as good use of a CB as a LB.
"Half of the classes", most of which fall into the category of "People who don't need to pick up a weapon the entire game like ever".
You're right, it's not a niche. Because the only people who use it are people who don't need it anyway.
Bows are better even if you have Str 10. They don't need Rapid Reload and don't provoke when reloading. And they can eventually benefit from Manyshot.
Note that most crossbows stop you from full attacking even if you have Rapid Reload.
Easiest option: Use bow stats/rules, reflavor as crossbow.
Look the big problem is that crossbows have basically been nerfed to the point of side arm at best under current rules. I mean it's easier to build a fighter focused on using spears in current rules then a crossbowmen which is arguably a damn shame. This gets even more annoying once you start looking into the actual history of crossbows and how much they fundamentally changed warfare, they were the weapon that for the first time allowed commoners to kill kings they were the original colt equalizer.
Er, that's actually kind of the the point.
Adventurers are elite warriors -- they're the people the "Colt equalizer" was suppose to equalize against. In the hands of a professional, they aren't very good weapons and never were, but they're the sort of thing that a first level commoner can pick up and be substantially more combat-effective.
So, yes, your third level fighter should have things that he can use that are more effective in his hands than a crossbow.
There are more serious issues with crossbows vs Bows...
Spoiler:-
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-1. Requires Rapid Reload or Exotic Weapon Prof (Repeating Crossbow) to shoot more then once in a round.
2. Can't use Many-shot with Crossbows
3. Can't add Str to damage
4. Can only fire 5 shots with a Repeating Crossbow before a full round action is required to reload.
5. Bows are more iconic for rangers. What's more iconic means more future magic-item possibilities, and more variety of interesting magical bows and arrows than of magical crossbows and enchanted bolts.Advantages of Crossbows.
1. Crossbows have longer range
2. Crossbows are unaffected by Strength, ignoring penalties.
3. Crossbows count as Simple weapons
4. Crossbows critical-hit range is superior to bows (19-20X2)
5. Some Crossbows can be used One handed.Hand crossbow: Can be fired one-handed with no penalty, dual-wielded as if with two light weapons. Reloading is a move action.
Light crossbow: Can be fired one-handed with a -2 penalty, dual-wielded as if with two light weapons (one-handed firing penalty stacks with the dual-wield penalties). Reloading is a move action.
Heavy crossbow: Can be fired one-handed with a -4 penalty, dual-wielded as if with two one-handed weapons (one-handed firing penalty stacks with the dual-wield penalties). Reloading is a full-round action.
Repeating crossbow: A repeating crossbow is hand, light or heavy, and has the same penalties for firing one-handed and dual-wielding as its non-repeating counterpart. Reloading is a free action when loading from the 5 round clip; replacing the 5 round clip is a full-round action.Every kind of crossbow requires both hands to reload: you can fire them with a single hand, but you'll have to drop or stow whatever you have in your other hand to reload. This includes reloading a repeating crossbow from the clip.
Crossbow Mastery (Combat) changes the time required for you to reload any type of crossbow is reduced to a free action, regardless of...
Sounds like some really great ideas! I'd consider adapting some of these for future home games.
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I really like the aesthetics of crossbows, so I came up with a crossbow fighter that seems like it would be fun. She's by no means as strong (DPS-wise) as a longbow user, but I think she's pretty well-rounded and still able to contribute meaningfully to an adventure (PFS in particular). I guess the key is that you need to just give up on being as good DPS-wise as a longbowman and try for something else.
I considered going Crossbowman, but I hate a lot of that archetype's abilities--so many have to do with readying actions! What the heck is the point?!...
Female human fighter (lore warden) 12
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +18
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Defense
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AC 27, touch 20, flat-footed 19 (+5 armor, +8 Dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 100 (12d10+24)
Fort +12, Ref +15, Will +11 (+3 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +3
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Ranged +2 Shocking burst Heavy crossbow +20/+20/+15/+10 (1d10+14+1d6 electricity/17-20/x2+1d10 electricity)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +3, crossbows +4)
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Statistics
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Str 8, Dex 26, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +12; CMB +15; CMD 37 (41 vs. Disarm, 41 vs. Sunder)
Feats Bleeding Critical, Clustered Shots, Combat Expertise +/-4, Critical Focus, Crossbow Mastery (Heavy crossbow), Deadly Aim -4/+8, Impact Critical Shot, Improved Critical (Heavy crossbow), Improved Precise Shot, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload (Heavy crossbow), Rapid Shot, Weapon Finesse
Traits Eyes and Ears of the City, Reckless
Skills Acrobatics +24, Knowledge (arcana) +18, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +18, Knowledge (local) +18, Knowledge (nature) +18, Knowledge (planes) +18, Knowledge (religion) +18, Perception +18
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Halfling
SQ hair's breadth, know thy enemy (standard action)
Gear
+3 darkleaf cloth leather armor,
+2 shocking burst heavy crossbow,
Amulet of natural armor +2,
Headband of mental prowess (Int & Wis +2) (Knowledge [Dungeoneering]),
Belt of incredible dexterity +4,
Cloak of resistance +3,
Gloves of dueling,
Ring of protection +2
Attacks above assume Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim, all day erry day. Defenses aren't great, but you probably shouldn't be in melee anyway. With Know Thy Enemy and Point Blank Shot active, your attack round jumps a little to +23/+23/+18/+13 (1d10+17+1d6 electricity/17-20/x2+1d10 electricity). On average, a hit is doing 26 damage. She hits reasonably well and crits decently often, with some fancy rider effects on her crits (shocking burst, impact critical, and bleeding critical). She also participates well out-of-combat with her Knowledge and Perception skills.
Biggest problem is that I basically have no spare feats and I'm still lacking a LOT of essential archery feats, like the Snap Snot line. Could trade out Weapon Finesse and Iron Will for other things (Weapon Focus/Snap Shot), but I decided I didn't want to be totally useless if my crossbow wasn't an option and Will Saves are scary. Likewise, you could probably get some better stats going by dumping Str/Cha more, but I have my standards...
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I think the fix to crossbows I will implement in my home game is to make Deadly Aim work for crossbows like Power Attack does for two handed weapons. Thus you get the 3 damage per -1 to hit. I think that would at least put them in the running, though leave them somewhat inferior.
Crossbow should have their own mechanics that make them different than bows. I would prefer one really powerful shot per round instead of trying to catch the archer shooting 6 arrows per turn. And no this definitely can not be done in any way in PF.
As you pointed out... that doesn't work in PF. More attacks are superior to one hard hit (Look at Vital Strike as an example). The fact that weapon enchants, crit range improvements, and Str/Dex bonus get better the more attacks you have. Its just not effective. For any build.
I think the house rules I suggested makes a repeating Heavy crossbow viable. You get Dex to dmg. You can shoot 20 shots (D8 bolts) before a reload. And you can Multi-shot like a bow. I think that balanced. Str to dmg or Dex to damage and you have to spend those extra 3 feats.
What frustrates me most is the lack of fancy ammunition for the crossbow. Bow users have blunt arrows, sleep arrows, tanglefoor arrows etc., but none of those exist in crossbow bolt form (at least in PFS).
Any fancy ammo for Bows and guns can be made for use by Crossbows and slings if the GM choose to do so.. If there is a Crossbow or sling specialist in the party , I would give any arrows of sleep, etc a 1/3 of being crossbow bolts or sling stones of sleep instead.
Now if you are looking for a decent work around the crossbow combat style gives you some okay feat relief.It doesn't help much... A Crossbow Ranger still deals less damage than a archer Ranger who had his Str score reduced by -4, a switch-hitter Ranger who only uses longbows as secondary weapon, and even a freaking Bard with a bow!
And that's despite the fact that he's spending 5gp a shot with alchemical bolts...
Crossbows are that bad.
No. Let us take two 1st level commoners, both str 10. One has a lt CB, the other a LB. They each have one feat, pick. Which does more damage? Well, the guy with the LOB has to spend his feat on martial weapon. The other peasant gets PB shot. So the CB guy hit's 5% more and does 2 points more. Winner- CB!
Next, let us take two 4th level wizards, both with str 8. No feats to spare, but they are both elves. Which does more damage? 1D8-1 vs 1d8. Winner- CB!
Next, here's a gimme. Two 5th level rangers, one archer the other CB. you get 10 CP to spend on str or dex, and two feat left, besides of course the style feat, which they each have spent on PB shot. OK, the LB guy get Precise & rapid, the CB guy gets Rapid reload & rapid.
The LB guy does 1d8+2 X2, the guy with the CB does 1-8 X2, but has a 16 dex, so he hits more often- unless of course Precise shot kicks in, and then he hits less often. Winner- LB! But not by much.
But I suppose what you're comparing is two 20th level guys, both of whom have spent every feat and GP of WBL to boost their archery. We call this 'theory crafting" as let's face it, no one plays that way and almost no games ever get that high.
So yeah, a dedicated archer is better off going for a LB.
Strangely, a dedicated melee combatant is better off choosing a greataxe over a club.
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The two first level commoners.. One shoots every other round, while the second shoots /Every/ round. After one round of combat, the crossbow guy deasl 1d10+1 (Given that its in PB shot range) And the other guy gets 1d8. Second round Crossbow is /still/ at 1d10+1 while the longbow is now at 2d8. Third round, the crossbow guy is dead(Commoners don't last long in melee), while the long bow is now at 3d8.
Lets take two level 4 wizards, both are elves, no feats to spare..
THEY CAST FRIGGIN MAGIC AND DON'T WORRY ABOUT DEALING DAMAGE WITH WEAPONS. And if the one with the longbow /did/ worry about actually dealing damage with weapons. BULLS STR. BAM! 12 Str right there.
Guess what? that is 1d8+1 now.
Even if its 1d8-1, the Longbow can still walk 30 feet and shoot. The Crossbow guy has to stand still, and reload his crossbow. Winner? Longbow. Cause the CB guy is gored to death by the Orc due to not moving.
Now the 'gimmie' Two level 5 rangers.. If you want to play this game, though almost no games ever use a 10point buy, So I guess this is theory crafting here as well...
Anycase
1- Even at the minimum, long bow does 3 points of damage ever hit. The crossbow does 1 point.
2- You kinda forgot a little important thing called the /race/ of the rangers. But assuming both are medium sized, lets go human, and replace skilled and the bonus feat out for a flexible set of points.
My Archer has 16 str, 18 dex, 11 con, 7 int, 12 wisdom and 7 Charisima.
My Xbowman Has 10 str, 18 dex, 12 con, 10 int, 14 wisdom and 7 cha.
You also put them at level 5, yet forgot all the feats they should have had by this level.
So Archer, Rapid Shot, Point Blank, Shot Precise shot
Xbow Rapid Reload, Point Blank, Rapid Shot
Those were the ones you picked up, but I'd add..
Weapon Focus for the archer
and Precise shot for the Crossbower.
Now the Archer hits just as well as the crossbower.. oh wait. He hits better actually. The Xbower hits 5% worse and deals less damage, even on a ten point buy. And if the archer is forced into melee, well, he can easily do well there as well, allowing him to make all those attacks while standing still and only taking five foot steps. Cause well, he could fight the enemy in melee as well.
Now your last remark
Well I guess strangely fighting with a weapon is better than not a weapon! LoL
Actually, A club vs a greataxe..
Clubs are 1d6 1h weapons with a throw of 10 feet. They can be made out of anything due to the - cost, you could easily pick up a chair leg and you've got yourself a club.
The greataxe of course is a 2h weapon. Yeah, totally not trying to make things on a rather equal playing field with the strawman here. But it does 1d12 points of damage with a x3 critical.
So, 1d6 is indeed smaller than 1d12. Half as much in fact. So at first glance, comparing a light simple weapon to a martial two handed weapon, you are indeed correct. A club is indeed a terrible weapon for a melee focused guy.
Cept.. well, there is that pesky little bit there with it that you are comparing two different handednesses.. Lets go and compare something a little more separated shall we? You might as well have said Acid splash a terrible spell for a caster compared to Clashing rocks!
Sure, one is a level 0 spell, the other level 9. But they are both Conj!
Okay, enough tomfoolery here.. Lets compare two weapons that have the same handedness. Cause you would be using a light 1h weapon for completely different reasons than a 2h weapon. Since you use 2h weapons for damage..
Great Axe vs Great Club
1d12 vs 1d10
x3 vs x2
S vs B
Despite both being a Martial weapon, both being 2h.. Well a GreatAxe is better than a great club. So, if there is truly what you were referring to, yes, it is strange. Beyond differences in material type (druids) there isn't any reason to use a Great Club over a Hammer, Lucerne or an earth breaker. The Earthbreaker is the equal to a Great Axe, truely.
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But I suppose what you're comparing is two 20th level guys, both of whom have spent every feat and GP of WBL to boost their archery. We call this 'theory crafting" as let's face it, no one plays that way and almost no games ever get that high.So yeah, a dedicated archer is better off going for a LB.
Strangely, a dedicated melee combatant is better off choosing a greataxe over a club.
Its not really Theory crafting. A spellcaster gets spellcasting feats. A melee combatant takes melee feats. And a dedicated Archer *gasp* takes archery feats. I have played high level archers. They are fun. And yes I spent every feat on archery and at least 60 percent of my WBL to boost archery. The problem is that a melee can pick a Great Axe, a Great Sword, or a Bastard sword and be at the same level of optimization. Its a difference of a Damage die and a crit range. With archery you have ONE choice... Composite Longbow. Thats it. The only other option (Crossbow) is an inferior choice because you gain less attacks and can't add your Str modifier. This is a big deal.
My Ranger had 4 attacks, plus Rapid Shot, plus Haste, plus Manyshot. 6 attacks with the first being doubled. He had a 20 Str(started with a 14 Str and had a +6 belt) for +5 damage on every shot.
Using a Repeating Crossbow you get a max of 5 shots. So no haste. And of course no Manyshot. And you dont get the +5 damage my bow user enjoyed. Even if you just use a Light Crossbow and take Rapid reload. Your missing out on Many-Shot and the damage from Str. My main grip is the Repeating Crossbow. It is an exotic weapon. It should be as good as a Bow for a dedicated archer if he chooses it. It is not. It should have been like the bow used in the Vahn Heilsing movie. That BA repeating CB that shot a million small metal bolts. Instead it has a 5 clip limit. WTF?
Leave crossbows as simple weapons that are inferior. Fine. But the Repeating Crossbow (exotic) should be on equal ground. Maybe instead of adding feats for crossbows... the Repeating Crossbow should just include those abilities... 20 bolt clip, dex to damage, and works with Many-shot. That would make it worth an exotic weapon prof and investing archery feats in.
One more niche for crossbows is that they can be fired while prone (great for sniping the enemy). Bows cannot.
A gang of bandits I use occasionally actually use Prone Shooter and Opening Volley to a pretty good extent.
Unless its been FAQ'ed you realize that Prone shooter is a less then worthless right? There is no penalty for shooting a crossbow or firearm when firing prone. The feat literally does nothing.
Unless its been FAQ'ed you realize that Prone shooter is a less then worthless right? There is no penalty for shooting a crossbow or firearm when firing prone. The feat literally does nothing.
It's been redesigned. Gives a big AC bonus vs ranged attacks now.
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One more niche for crossbows is that they can be fired while prone (great for sniping the enemy). Bows cannot.
A gang of bandits I use occasionally actually use Prone Shooter and Opening Volley to a pretty good extent.
It just needs to be a little bit better IMO.
Xbow should be more about doing large single target burst damage, while a Longbow would be more about sustained damage.
Then you have Xbows for burst, longbows for sustained, and firearms for accuracy.
Then you have Xbows for burst, longbows for sustained, and firearms for accuracy.
I think the term you should be using for firearms is penetration. Granted given the touch AC goal and how often they hit, accuracy sounds right, but the idea that smoothbore muzzleloaders be characterized as accurate curdles my gun nut soul.
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What frustrates me most is the lack of fancy ammunition for the crossbow. Bow users have blunt arrows, sleep arrows, tanglefoor arrows etc., but none of those exist in crossbow bolt form (at least in PFS).Any fancy ammo for Bows and guns can be made for use by Crossbows and slings if the GM choose to do so.. If there is a Crossbow or sling specialist in the party , I would give any arrows of sleep, etc a 1/3 of being crossbow bolts or sling stones of sleep instead.
"You are Degoon Squad!" - I like it.
Unfortunately, "if the GM chooses to do it" is precisely the problem. My character who would really benefit from these things is a PFS character. Under PFS rules, if it does not exist in an approved source, it does not exist at all.
The two first level commoners.. One shoots every other round, while the second shoots /Every/ round.
....Now the 'gimmie' Two level 5 rangers.. If you want to play this game, though almost no games ever use a 10point buy, So I guess this is theory crafting here as well...
...My Archer has 16 str, 18 dex, 11 con, 7 int, 12 wisdom and 7 Charisima.
My Xbowman Has 10 str, 18 dex, 12 con, 10 int, 14 wisdom and 7 cha.You also put them at level 5, yet forgot all the feats they should have had by this level.
He has a Lt CB, which fires every round.
I didnt say a 10 pt buy- I said 10 pts for str & dex, the other points are used for wis, Con or whatever.
See, you compare your CB to your archer, but they aren't even, as your archer dumped int , and has a lower wis & Con. This allows him to have a str of 16 and ALSO the same dex 18 of the CB, which is bogus. I mean,. this means the CB man is going to be more surviable, and have WAY better skills. So, come on, make things even. If you make all the other stats even, the CB man gets a higher DEX, PERIOD.
No, I didn't "forgot all the feats they should have had by this level."
I gave them "... two feat left, besides of course the style feat, which they each have spent on PB shot". PC's other than theorycrafted often spend a few feats on things that keep them alive, add to roelplaying, or skills. So, to make them even I assumed one feat spent that way.
One more niche for crossbows is that they can be fired while prone (great for sniping the enemy). Bows cannot.
A gang of bandits I use occasionally actually use Prone Shooter and Opening Volley to a pretty good extent.
It just needs to be a little bit better IMO.
Xbow should be more about doing large single target burst damage, while a Longbow would be more about sustained damage.
Then you have Xbows for burst, longbows for sustained, and firearms for accuracy.
Oh, this by no means closes the gap between the two. Just one thing I occassionally forget.
... and aren't you able to conceal hand crossbows with Sleight of Hand? (Again, not exactly a deal-maker/breaker)
Who cares about the first level commoner that do not spend their resources in ranged combat? quoting Lemmy the real problem is that
"I devote all my resources and I'm still can't be nearly as good as half-decent archer."
It's all very nice to quote someone, but why not quote someone who brings some facts to the table rather than just opinion?