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I'm wondering if this is legal because if its not it's mega hard for a gm to run a scenario with this kind of a companion since the scenarios don't take the companion into consideration when calulating the level of the party even though this edilon does insane damage per round.This is one persons edilon they posted on forum. I can't find anything wrong or illegal but maybe someone who is more knowledge can spot something I missed?
My summoner is an evolution point specialist of sorts, along with summoning things. I took Extra Evolution multiple times, play a half-elf with the favored class bonus for more evolution points. So I have a crap load. My quadruped Eidolon has pounce along with four arms, the top two wield a Nodachi which gets his full BAB attack, and the usual iterative at -5. My bottom two arms and legs have claws on them, granting me four secondary claw attacks with multiattack so they are at full BAB minus 2 to hit. Then I have a bite, also a secondary with a minus two to hit. That works out to eight attacks. Ten was an exageration. I was toying with the idea of using rake to get nine on a charge and seven when standing and fighting, with the use of the following attack sequence (Nodachi,Iterative,Claw,Claw,Rake,Rake,Bite,Tentacle) but ultimately decided I wanted the extra attack while standing and fighting instead of on the charge. (Well since nothing lives through my charges). It also lets me more effectively use my grab ability since Ihave more claws and that is what grab applies to. I use my haste attack for an extra swing with the nodachi usually, occasionally with a claw if I need to use my grab on something or the thing has DR 15/Good since my claws are good aligned.
Following attack sequence with Power Attack, and Haste:
Nodachi +17 hit (2d8+22 Damage with 15-20/x2)
Iterative: +12 hit (2d8+22 with 15-20/x2)
Claw: +16 (Weapon Focus) 1d6+2d6 (acid) + 2d6 (holy) +8 (Four Claw Attack on a full attack or charge)
Bite: +15 1d8+2d6(acid)+2d6(holy)+8
Haste attack which I usually give to the weapon, but occasionally something else.
First what level summoner are we talking about here? There is a maximum number of attacks an Edilon can make on the table no matter how many arms it has.
Second What is this iterative attack with the nodachi?
-If its a Multiattack then the Nodachi is a primary followed by secondary attacks at -2 (bite is also a primary and cannot be made if Nodachi is taking that spot in the attack sequence.)
-If its a Full Attack then there is the First attack followed by the iterative attacks at -5. (all with the nodachi or mix in a bite or two bites, or a claw or two, with any available weapon)
Haste attack is fine and can be made with a primary attack.
Note:
-Holy only damages evil outsiders/undead so if damage output is an issue then don't throw that creature type at them.
-How are you getting 2d6 acid? As additional damage dice of the same type do not stack. see: magic weapons and special abilities in that section.
In short no some of it doesn't seem legal
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The limit on the number of attacks applies only to natural weapons, not manufactured weapons, so if he is level 9 or above there is no error there.
The no-dachi get iterative attacks if the eidolon BAB is high enough.
Multiattack has nothing to do with using manufactured weapons.
The haste attack can be made with any attack, generally you use a primary attack as it hit better.
Edit:
Claw,Claw,Rake,Rake,Bite,Tentacle is 6 attacks, so at level 10 it is 1 above the maximum for natural attacks.
Oh and by the way I noticed you had listed a couple of rakes in the attack sequence (Nodachi,Iterative,Claw,Claw,Rake,Rake,Bite,Tentacle)
lvl 19 and 20 maximum attacks = 7 + 1 from haste or speed or something similar = 8 MAXIMUM
Rakes are Primary and only applicable to grappling as per the rake(ex) in eidolons.
So it should look like this (Bite, claw, claw, claw, claw, tentacle, Haste=Nodachi) or flipifloppy the bite and nodachi in either case its only 6 attacks plus what u got from hast = 7 still sick but we must be looking at a level 19 or 20+ here? For your player to be boasting that 7 attacks and an 8th with haste you must be at least 19th level level for it.
The limit on the number of attacks applies only to natural weapons, not manufactured weapons, so if he is level 9 or above there is no error there.
The no-dachi get iterative attacks if the eidolon BAB is high enough.
Multiattack has nothing to do with using manufactured weapons.
Basically what im hearing here is when making a full attack action not only does a player get their primary attacks say 16/11/6/1 but as in the case of catfolk or kitsune characters they can also make their extra secondary attacks as well meaning 16/16/14/14/11/6/1 may be they are a monk and have flurry for 16/16/16/14/1411/11/6/6/1/1.... sorry that does not seem right.
And your telling me that with extra arms hands are free (not even claws) and the Feat Multiweapon fighting and multiattack. An Eidolon can literally have as many attacks as it has arms holding weapons?
Shucks padnah time to get this here eidolon some firearms proficiency. Make me an antipersonnel eidolon.
That would be 44 attacks at lvl 20 (sparing the feats spent on multiweapon fighting, WP: firearms, etc)... or for a lvl 10 that would total to 23 attacks... that also does not seem right.
This is the link to where I saw this at. Summoner is level 11. Guy is named Alexander who postedit.
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/pathfinder-society-onlin e-collective/6GOuwOYD-f8
tried following the link by copy paste but google says there is no such group...
found the space in the http... onlin e should be online
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The limit on the number of attacks applies only to natural weapons, not manufactured weapons, so if he is level 9 or above there is no error there.
The no-dachi get iterative attacks if the eidolon BAB is high enough.
Multiattack has nothing to do with using manufactured weapons.Basically what im hearing here is when making a full attack action not only does a player get their primary attacks say 16/11/6/1 but as in the case of catfolk or kitsune characters they can also make their extra secondary attacks as well meaning 16/16/14/14/11/6/1 may be they are a monk and have flurry for 16/16/16/14/1411/11/6/6/1/1.... sorry that does not seem right.
And your telling me that with extra arms hands are free (not even claws) and the Feat Multiweapon fighting and multiattack. An Eidolon can literally have as many attacks as it has arms holding weapons?
Shucks padnah time to get this here eidolon some firearms proficiency. Make me an antipersonnel eidolon.
That would be 44 attacks at lvl 20 (sparing the feats spent on multiweapon fighting, WP: firearms, etc)... or for a lvl 10 that would total to 23 attacks... that also does not seem right.
When making a full attack you can make natural weapons attack as part of your attack routine with all your "limbs" [head included] that aren't already attacking with manufactured weapons.
About the eidolon, maybe you have missed my edit. The cited eidolon exceed the limit by 1.
For the flurry of blow there is some specific FAQ, search the forum as mixing the monk abilities and natural attacks is complicated and I don't use monks in my games.
Multiweapon fighting:
Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)
This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
It don't do what you think. It don't give extra attack if you have multiple hands, it reduce the penalty when attacking with manufactured weapons, but you need to already have the ability to make weapons attacks with multiple hands.
Two weapon fighting work the same way. All characters can make an extra attack with the "off hand", the feat only reduce the attack penalty.
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Here is the link https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/pathfinder-society-onlin e-collective
then click on the one titled:
3-26 Portal of the Sacred Rune (tier 7-11) - Friday, August 2nd 2013 @ 10:00AM CDT [-5 GMT]This topic is a duplicate of another discussion.
You were redirected here from a duplicate topic.
The summoner is Alexander and he's level 11. Go see if it's built right and comment if its not. I can see why gm's think summoners are op if they are like this. A party of 5 summoners and a healer like this could easily rip thru any dungeon like it was wet tissue paper.
Quadruped Eidolon? Weak Will Saves.
Dismiss.
Banishment.
Blasphemy/Dictum/Holy Word/Word of Chaos.
Control Summoned Creature.
Or, toss opponents with comparable Megolons at them.
When making a full attack you can make natural weapons attack as part of your attack routine with all your "limbs" [head included] that aren't already attacking with manufactured weapons.
About the eidolon, maybe you have missed my edit. The cited eidolon exceed the limit by 1.
Ok I think I get it now. The limit in eidolon is for natural attacks but they are added to a Full BAB with multiattack reducing the penalties to do so. That still seems a bit ridiculous.
I read the post that was referenced so the eidolon is from a lvl 10 summoner
8/3 BAB then 5 natural attacks max at 8/6/6/6/6 BAB
Total number of attacks are 7 then 8 including haste for a grand total of Attacks = 8/8/8/6/6/6/6/3, yeah it is silly for a lvl 10.
I would have an opponent summoner on hand most of the time to harry his eidolon. Since they are so good it would make sense that more people in your world would want to become summoners
Multiweapon fighting:
Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)
This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
It don't do what you think. It don't give extra attack if you have multiple hands, it reduce the penalty when attacking with manufactured weapons, but you need to already have the ability to make weapons attacks with multiple hands.
Two weapon fighting work the same way. All characters can make an extra attack with the "off hand", the feat only reduce the attack penalty.
It does do exactly what I think... I took a deeper look at it. check out normal in your quote there -10 penalty for all attacks made with off hands. Note: see TWF not just the feat but the section in combat.
Two-Weapon FightingIf you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Table: Two-weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.
Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapon.
Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.
Every "off hand" with a weapon gets an extra attack. Thank the Developers there isn't an improved MWF or there would be an iterative set of ridiculous number of attacks.
So yeah 44 or more attacks at level 20 and 23 or more attacks at level 10
An eidolon if maxed out can make a silly number of attacks with weapons. And then throw on the extra natural attacks just for fun.
the Attack sequence would look something like this if someone went biped and just started getting extra limbs from then on out. 18 total feats between summoner and eidolon, 26 evolution points = 44 evolution points and racial evolution points for half elf favored class bonus adds 5 evolution points.
total = 49 evolution points spend 1 on multiweapon attack and 2 on weapon proficiencies. Leaves 46 EP to spend on all limbs (arms) 2 points for 2 arms, and you started out with a pair of arms.
So 48 arms all together.
1 primary attack and 47 secondary attacks
say they just bumped STR then it goes:
23/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/ 22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22
Attacks, lets say with Keen Kukri at 15+ to crit doing 1d4+8(STR)+1(ENH) before crit
Oh those 22's should have been 23's.
Averaging 14.25 damage per attack based on an AC of 38.
That would be average damage of 684 per full attack action.
That is just silly and the chances of getting an auto hit with a natural 20 go up with the more attacks you put in there.
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It does do exactly what I think... I took a deeper look at it. check out normal in your quote there -10 penalty for all attacks made with off hands. Note: see TWF not just the feat but the section in combat.Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Table: Two-weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.
Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapon.
Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.
Every "off hand" with a weapon gets an extra attack. Thank the Developers there isn't an improved MWF or there would be an iterative set of ridiculous number of attacks.
So yeah 44 or more attacks at level 20 and 23 or more attacks at level 10
An eidolon if maxed out can make a silly number of attacks with weapons. And then throw on the extra natural attacks just for fun.
No, you get 1 (one) off hand attack, not one for each hand. the text is specific. 1 extra attack.
It don't say "if you wield multiple weapons in multilple hands you get 1 extra attack from each hand."
Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting in Combat.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.
Again, 1 extra attack, not 1 extra attack with each hand.
There are a few thousands posts threads about this, go and read them.
Some dev stuff about extra limbs not giving extra weapon attacks.
The intent is that you have an extra arm for holding stuff, not to turn you into a double-greatsword-wielding maniac.
The vestigial limb is also not giving you any extra actions. For example, a normal character can use twf to attack with a manufactured weapon in one hand and one unarmed strike, whether that's a punch, kick, or headbutt. He doesn't get multiple extra unarmed strikes per round just because he has an arm, two legs, and a head free. Therefore, you don't get any extra attacks just because you now have a vestigial arm, or two vestigial arms. You're still limited by the normal limitations of the attack sequence.
And no, having the wings discovery doesn't mean you automatically get an extra wing attack. Most creatures that naturally have wings don't get wing attacks; the rules for wing attacks in the Bestiary are mainly there so you know if wings are primary or secondary, and how much damage they should do if you're building your own monster. If, for example, your alchemist wanted to attack with a wing *instead* of an unarmed strike, you'd know how it would function (secondary, bludgeoning, probably 1d4 for a Medium creature). But the wing attack wouldn't be in *addition* to the alchemist's normal attack routine, it would take the place of one of the alchemist's other attacks that round.
The core rules assume that you're a humanoid creature and you only have two "limbs" to attack with each round if you're using the "fighting with two weapons" option. It doesn't matter if you're making a headbutt and a punch, or a kick and a punch, or 2 kicks, or 2 punches, you're just making two attacks per round. At no time would you ever be able to justify a BAB +0 creature with no natural weapons making 2 punches AND 2 kicks per round: because the rules are assuming you are using your left hand and right hand, but hand-waves the idea that one of those "hands" could be some other body part such as an elbow, kick, or headbutt. The rules don't care, in the same way that they don't care if you say you're making a high swing or a low swing: it is irrelevant to the game mechanics, which say "make an attack roll to see if you hit." The game says, "pick a hand, even if it's not really a hand, make an attack, then pick another hand, even if it's not really a hand, and make a second attack."
When you throw in natural attacks, it gets more complicated because it starts defining SOME of your specific attack locations, and yet it continues to hand-wave the nature of the rest of your attacks. So you start thinking, "I now have two claws, and it makes sense that I can't make 2 claw attacks AND 2 punches in the same round because I'd be using each arm twice, but before I had these claws I was able to make punches OR kicks, so why is it that now that I have claws, I can't also make kicks in the same round? Did my legs suddenly stop working because I got claws?"
The answer is no, your legs didn't stop working, but you're still running up against the game's assumption that you're making up to two attacks per round using TWF. And you are making two attacks per round: 2 claw attacks. And you're doing it at a better attack bonus than you were with two (unarmed strike) punches:
ppunches: BAB +0, no TWF feat means main at –4, offhand at –8, for a total of main –4, offhand –8
claws: BAB +0, primary attack means no penalty, for a total of +0/+0In fact, your claws are even better than if you had TWF, which would be at –2/–2.
You're at least +12 better overall with claws than with unarmed strikes, but that's not good enough for you, you have to stack in more.
And yes, the rules say that if you're using a manufactured weapon or unarmed strikes, you CAN use them in conjunction with natural attacks, "so long as a different limb is used for each attack."
The intent of that was to allow you wield a 1H weapon and make a secondary claw attack with your other hand, or to let you wield a 1H weapon and make a secondary bite attack with your mount, or to let you wield a 2H weapon and make a secondary bite attack with your mouth.
The intent was to prevent you from making a full attack sequence with your natural attacks and a bunch of unarmed strikes by specifically defining your undefined unarmed strikes as conveniently different limbs than your natural attacks. Which is exactly what you're trying to do.
News flash: the game is already stacked so you're expected to win. You don't have to abuse the system to ensure it.
Rathyr wrote:
So can a tentacle replace as many attacks per round as you have?
Nothing anywhere in the rules says you can use a natural attack in place of multiple other attacks.
Well unfortunately in that first quote from SKR he is talking about "vestigial" limbs like the appendix is a "vestigial" organ in humans it just sits there and doesn't really do anything.
Eidolon limbs are not vestigial in anyway they are fully functioning limbs.
And your ignoring the fact that were talking about Multiweapon Fighting here which:
1) Replaces TWF = that second quote from SKR is all about TWF not MWF.
2) TWF is for a single off hand = +1 attack in that single off hand.
3) MWF is for multiple off hands = +1 attack in for each "off hand" holding a weapon. As per the Normal section in MWF
Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)
This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands.(It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Table: Two-weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.
Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapon.
Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.
No, you get 1 (one) off hand attack, not one for each hand. the text is specific. 1 extra attack.It don't say "if you wield multiple weapons in multilple hands you get 1 extra attack from each hand."
I agree when using the TWF feat. But were not using the TWF feat here.
We are using the MWF feat.
In MWF it does say, "This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons."
and
"Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands.(It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.)"
Which applies to attacking with multiple weapons in a single round.
The purpose of MWF is to define all of your hands that are wielding weapons as "off hands" that may all attack each one applies as a single off hand in TWF. Thus each one gets a singular extra attack for each singular weapon wielding "off hand". Just +1 per "off hand".
There is another possibility here. It could potentially mean they there is one attack roll made that determines if it hits with ALL of it's "off hands" wielding weapons. In this case there would be a primary attack roll with a single roll of damage and a single secondary attack roll with ALL of it's "off hands" wielding weapons. and the damage would be rolled multiple times if a hit, similarly with a critical. In which case you are assured massive damage each time.
If MWF simply functions as TWF why did the developers make the MWF feat in the first place? It would be a redundant feat that does the exact same thing as an already existing one.
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This is my summoner build. I am a half elf with the favored class option for an extra 2 evolution points, I also took extra evolution 3 times. Which is legal at level 11. I have a total of 20 evolution points. I am using a +3 amulet of mighty fists which has holy and corrosive on it. My attack sequence is Nodachi/Iterative (because of BaB)/ Haste attack with Nodachi/ Claw (Arms not weilding weapon)/ Claw (Arms not weilding weapon)/ Claw (Leg)/ Claw (Leg/ Bite. Where the Nodachi/Iterative/Haste/Claw/Claw/Rake/Rake/Tentacle/Bite came from was a possible build I was going to do which would still be legal as well since Rake specifically says it counts as 1 natural attack for the purposes of max natural attacks. I decided I didn't need any more burst on my charges and hence went with the 4 claws build. I do not have multieapon fighting as I do not use more than one weapon as that would result in a lose to net DPR.
My Evolutions are as follows (Not counting the free ones from Quad):
Pounce (1)
Arms (2)
Arms (2)
Claws (1)
CLaws (1)
Large (4)
Energy Attacks (2)
Improved Natural Armor x3 (3)
+8 Perception (1)
Grab (2)Hey Sweet! I actually have an unspent evolution point. I take the minus 2 on all my natural attacks because I am weilding a melee weapon and they are treated as secondary. It is minus 2 and not 5 because I have multiattack. I also do half my strength modifier on damage and do half power attack on my natural attacks. The weapon is a +1 Keen Spellstoring Adamantine Nodachi.
Aren't you missing the:
Weapon Training (Ex)(2 Point Evolution)An eidolon learns to use a weapon, gaining Simple Weapon Proficiency as a bonus feat. If 2 additional evolution points are spent, it gains proficiency with all martial weapons as well.
Which would be 4 points of evolutions needed to use the Nodachi?
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This is my summoner build. I am a half elf with the favored class option for an extra 2 evolution points, I also took extra evolution 3 times. Which is legal at level 11. I have a total of 20 evolution points. I am using a +3 amulet of mighty fists which has holy and corrosive on it.
I am seeing an issue here.
That amulet is a +6 item. Amulet of Mighty Fists only goes to +5, and that costs 100,000gp.
WBL for an 11th level character is only 82,000.
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This is my summoner build. I am a half elf with the favored class option for an extra 2 evolution points, I also took extra evolution 3 times. Which is legal at level 11. I have a total of 20 evolution points. I am using a +3 amulet of mighty fists which has holy and corrosive on it.I am seeing an issue here.
That amulet is a +6 item. Amulet of Mighty Fists only goes to +5, and that costs 100,000gp.
WBL for an 11th level character is only 82,000.
I thought about that at first as well... the Enhancement amount, not the WBL as that only applies to created at that level characters, not accumulated wealth... and I believe his implication was that it is a +3 Amulet in that it has Corrosive (+1) and Holy (+2), as the Amulet does not require base +1 or better enhancement on it as a weapon does.
