Demjing "The Mage Breaker"'s page

I tried searching for any developer input if anybody knows of a thread where this has already been laid to rest please let me know.

Same here on the quote.

I have been looking at this alot recently it seems the most reasonable thing to do is as per MWF Treat each extra hand as an "off hand". IN the combat section description replace "second" weapon with "third" weapon, then "fourth" weapon, etc..

When applying it to TWF use the table in the combat section for negatives. So yes a lite weapon in ALL the off hand(s) would reduce the penalty, but as soon as you pickup 1 non light weapon in ANY of the "off hands" you are no longer satisfying that rule.

That is how I read it and feel the ruling should be.
Unfortunately I believe in the rules but feel this is a bit gimmicky and needs Errata to fix it so it does not become abused by the Summoner class, or anything else that lets a PC purchase or attain extra limbs with hands.

Well unfortunately in that first quote from SKR he is talking about "vestigial" limbs like the appendix is a "vestigial" organ in humans it just sits there and doesn't really do anything.

Eidolon limbs are not vestigial in anyway they are fully functioning limbs.

And your ignoring the fact that were talking about Multiweapon Fighting here which:

1) Replaces TWF = that second quote from SKR is all about TWF not MWF.
2) TWF is for a single off hand = +1 attack in that single off hand.
3) MWF is for multiple off hands = +1 attack in for each "off hand" holding a weapon. As per the Normal section in MWF

Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)

This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.

Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.

Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands.(It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.

Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.

Two-Weapon Fighting

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

Table: Two-weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.

Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapon.

Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.

No, you get 1 (one) off hand attack, not one for each hand. the text is specific. 1 extra attack.

It don't say "if you wield multiple weapons in multilple hands you get 1 extra attack from each hand."

I agree when using the TWF feat. But were not using the TWF feat here.

We are using the MWF feat.

In MWF it does say, "This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons."
and
"Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands.(It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.)"

Which applies to attacking with multiple weapons in a single round.

The purpose of MWF is to define all of your hands that are wielding weapons as "off hands" that may all attack each one applies as a single off hand in TWF. Thus each one gets a singular extra attack for each singular weapon wielding "off hand". Just +1 per "off hand".

There is another possibility here. It could potentially mean they there is one attack roll made that determines if it hits with ALL of it's "off hands" wielding weapons. In this case there would be a primary attack roll with a single roll of damage and a single secondary attack roll with ALL of it's "off hands" wielding weapons. and the damage would be rolled multiple times if a hit, similarly with a critical. In which case you are assured massive damage each time.

If MWF simply functions as TWF why did the developers make the MWF feat in the first place? It would be a redundant feat that does the exact same thing as an already existing one.

Oh those 22's should have been 23's.

Averaging 14.25 damage per attack based on an AC of 38.

That would be average damage of 684 per full attack action.

That is just silly and the chances of getting an auto hit with a natural 20 go up with the more attacks you put in there.

the Attack sequence would look something like this if someone went biped and just started getting extra limbs from then on out. 18 total feats between summoner and eidolon, 26 evolution points = 44 evolution points and racial evolution points for half elf favored class bonus adds 5 evolution points.

total = 49 evolution points spend 1 on multiweapon attack and 2 on weapon proficiencies. Leaves 46 EP to spend on all limbs (arms) 2 points for 2 arms, and you started out with a pair of arms.

So 48 arms all together.

1 primary attack and 47 secondary attacks

say they just bumped STR then it goes:
23/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/ 22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22/22

Attacks, lets say with Keen Kukri at 15+ to crit doing 1d4+8(STR)+1(ENH) before crit

Multiweapon fighting:

PRD wrote:

Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)

This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.

Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.

Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.

Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.

It don't do what you think. It don't give extra attack if you have multiple hands, it reduce the penalty when attacking with manufactured weapons, but you need to already have the ability to make weapons attacks with multiple hands.

Two weapon fighting work the same way. All characters can make an extra attack with the "off hand", the feat only reduce the attack penalty.

It does do exactly what I think... I took a deeper look at it. check out normal in your quote there -10 penalty for all attacks made with off hands. Note: see TWF not just the feat but the section in combat.

Two-Weapon Fighting

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

Table: Two-weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.

Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapon.

Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.

Every "off hand" with a weapon gets an extra attack. Thank the Developers there isn't an improved MWF or there would be an iterative set of ridiculous number of attacks.

So yeah 44 or more attacks at level 20 and 23 or more attacks at level 10

An eidolon if maxed out can make a silly number of attacks with weapons. And then throw on the extra natural attacks just for fun.

So with Str+10 and BAB+6 his attacks would be

Main hand: +15/+10
BAB(6)+Misc(11)-TWF(2) / BAB(1)+Misc(11)-TWF(2)

Off hand: :+15
BAB(6)+Misc(11)-TWF(2)

(Misc: Str(10)+WF(1)+MW(1)-Size(1))

FootClaw(or bite etc): +10
BAB-5(1)+Str(10)-Size(1) [It's BAB-5 because it's a secondary natural attack on account of how you're mixing it with iterative attacks]

Even though he has two claws, he has a maximum of 4 attacks per round.

Note: Max Attacks specifically stated does not apply to attacks with weapons.

Grand total Attacks then are totaled as normal and then add all other natural attacks that are not being occupied with weapons as secondary attacks.

According to the level 6 example you gave:
Weapon Attacks first 3 followed by secondary attacks (bite, claw, claw): 15/15/10/10/10/10.

This leaves room for 1 more natural attack. I recommend getting the extra limbs and training out TWF for MWF adds a lot more weapon attacks.

When making a full attack you can make natural weapons attack as part of your attack routine with all your "limbs" [head included] that aren't already attacking with manufactured weapons.

About the eidolon, maybe you have missed my edit. The cited eidolon exceed the limit by 1.

Ok I think I get it now. The limit in eidolon is for natural attacks but they are added to a Full BAB with multiattack reducing the penalties to do so. That still seems a bit ridiculous.

I read the post that was referenced so the eidolon is from a lvl 10 summoner
8/3 BAB then 5 natural attacks max at 8/6/6/6/6 BAB

Total number of attacks are 7 then 8 including haste for a grand total of Attacks = 8/8/8/6/6/6/6/3, yeah it is silly for a lvl 10.

I would have an opponent summoner on hand most of the time to harry his eidolon. Since they are so good it would make sense that more people in your world would want to become summoners

I think that you could wield another weapon as its meant to be wielded, but not flurry, or you could wield it as an improvised weapon doing less damage and flurrying.

That is pretty much how it reads to me.

If you multiclass into druid could shillelagh be cast on the improvised weapon?

Shillelagh

What is a club or a quarterstaff really? especially if it was once a bar stool leg or a tent pole at one time does that mean it is not a club or a quarterstaff now? If that is true then the way the item is being used at that moment defines what it is... I would be hard pressed on making a short sword have this even if it's stats get swapped to a club and it is being used as a club. Note most police carry asps (a metal collapsible club)

found the space in the http... onlin e should be online

This is the link to where I saw this at. Summoner is level 11. Guy is named Alexander who postedit.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/pathfinder-society-onlin e-collective/6GOuwOYD-f8

tried following the link by copy paste but google says there is no such group...

The limit on the number of attacks applies only to natural weapons, not manufactured weapons, so if he is level 9 or above there is no error there.

The no-dachi get iterative attacks if the eidolon BAB is high enough.
Multiattack has nothing to do with using manufactured weapons.

Basically what im hearing here is when making a full attack action not only does a player get their primary attacks say 16/11/6/1 but as in the case of catfolk or kitsune characters they can also make their extra secondary attacks as well meaning 16/16/14/14/11/6/1 may be they are a monk and have flurry for 16/16/16/14/1411/11/6/6/1/1.... sorry that does not seem right.

And your telling me that with extra arms hands are free (not even claws) and the Feat Multiweapon fighting and multiattack. An Eidolon can literally have as many attacks as it has arms holding weapons?

Shucks padnah time to get this here eidolon some firearms proficiency. Make me an antipersonnel eidolon.

That would be 44 attacks at lvl 20 (sparing the feats spent on multiweapon fighting, WP: firearms, etc)... or for a lvl 10 that would total to 23 attacks... that also does not seem right.

Oh and by the way I noticed you had listed a couple of rakes in the attack sequence (Nodachi,Iterative,Claw,Claw,Rake,Rake,Bite,Tentacle)

lvl 19 and 20 maximum attacks = 7 + 1 from haste or speed or something similar = 8 MAXIMUM

Rakes are Primary and only applicable to grappling as per the rake(ex) in eidolons.

So it should look like this (Bite, claw, claw, claw, claw, tentacle, Haste=Nodachi) or flipifloppy the bite and nodachi in either case its only 6 attacks plus what u got from hast = 7 still sick but we must be looking at a level 19 or 20+ here? For your player to be boasting that 7 attacks and an 8th with haste you must be at least 19th level level for it.

First what level summoner are we talking about here? There is a maximum number of attacks an Edilon can make on the table no matter how many arms it has.

Second What is this iterative attack with the nodachi?
-If its a Multiattack then the Nodachi is a primary followed by secondary attacks at -2 (bite is also a primary and cannot be made if Nodachi is taking that spot in the attack sequence.)
-If its a Full Attack then there is the First attack followed by the iterative attacks at -5. (all with the nodachi or mix in a bite or two bites, or a claw or two, with any available weapon)

Haste attack is fine and can be made with a primary attack.

Note:
-Holy only damages evil outsiders/undead so if damage output is an issue then don't throw that creature type at them.

-How are you getting 2d6 acid? As additional damage dice of the same type do not stack. see: magic weapons and special abilities in that section.

In short no some of it doesn't seem legal

Evil eye based on her charisma = this sets the DC of the save but the characters still need to make fortitude and will saves as described at the adjusted DC for a modified Sea Hag Charisma score.

For water combat see the skill swim and read it well. Also see Cover and Concealment with stealth if the hag wants to play the hiding game. You may need to declare the clarity of the water. Next see Combat modifiers table of swimming and attacking underwater I believe it's -4 unless you have a natural swim speed. Most spells have no problem with water or crossing that boundary condition.

If it is a random encounter the sea hag could be simply policing it's territory. It certainly might have better things to do than harry the party for days on end getting farther and farther away from it's coven. This may be one or 2 strikes over a few hours depending on what you determine the Sea Hag's territory size to be, and the speed of the boat.

If the Sea Hag Flees dropping them out of initiative they technically have defeated her, they might not get the loot but they should still get the exp. If she shows back up again another day this should be a separate encounter, especially if it is another day where everyone gets all their HP and spells back etc, if she flees again technically they should get exp again as well.

"Sea hags prefer to dwell relatively close to shore where fishermen and trading vessels are more commonly encountered. Most choose to live far from urban areas so that their acts don't draw as much attention from would-be enemies, but it's not uncommon for a particularly brave or eager sea hag to settle in a city harbor or in the mouth of a deep river."

Perhaps as the party's boat leaver her area the Hag will leave them alone.

If a character uses Elemental Fist while under the effect of Thorn body, do the effects stack, granting an additional 2d6 damage (of the appropriate types).

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

It seems to me like these should...

All of them stack except for Greater Magic fang and Bristle as they both grant enhancement bonuses. Bonuses of the same type do not stack. As stated in various places throughout the Pathfinder book. You can have all of them plus one of either Bristle OR Greater Magic Fang and they will stack.

Strong Jaw and Gorilla Aspect do not change your size. Yes they stack as well as can be applied to any size altering effect. Remember changing the size category of one of your attacks does not change your size category. Changing your size category includes adjustments to STR DEX CON and size modifiers to AC, CMB/D, Attacks, and Skills.

Gorilla Aspect will not stack with any other polymorph effect. You can have Gorilla Aspect OR Enlarge person, not both.

You asked a whole bunch of questions about a whole bunch of stuff. I hope this addressed the no's and reasons why for each individually.

oh those cites were from the d20pfsrd magic weapons section, or your PF Base book both have them.

The interesting points are that a) non-magical ammunition does not actually become magical, it is treated as magical for overcoming DR, b) aligned projectile weapons fire aligned ammunition, and c) nothing is said about energy effects.

a non-magical arrow fired from a +1 flaming holy longbow is a) non-magical but overcomes DR as though it were, b) [Good] aligned and c) incapable of possessing the flaming property because it is not a +1 or higher weapon.

Thoughts and opinions, please!

(Again: I believe that the arrow should deliver the extra fire damage.)

You should also include in the Cites this little bit:

Weapons come in two basic categories: melee and ranged. Some of the weapons listed as melee weapons can also be used as ranged weapons. In this case, their enhancement bonuses apply to both melee and ranged attacks.

Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.

AND
The super script 3 on flaming in the ranged weapon table goes to the line item 3 at the bottom of the table that reads:

3 Projectile weapons with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition.

COMBINE and basically a piece of ammunition which in this case would be considered the "weapon" cannot have 2 instances of the same thing on it. But as RAW an unholy arrow shot from a Holy Bow would then have both Holy and Unholy properties, similarly a Fire and Frost combination would be possible. The ICY-HOT arrow, etc.

My pet peev about pfs is the fact that neither side can act while flatfooted. For example if lets say I had a wizard and busted into a room where the enemy is behind cover but I get +2 init from reactionary trait, +4 improved initi feat, 16 dex gives +3 init, +4 init from compsognathus familiar for total of +13 to init( and there is ways to get even higher).I can step in the room around the cover and cast lightning bolt all up in your face before you even get to react depending on win of init roll.

Ok so the players get a surprise round to do something 1 standard OR 1 Move action. Cant walk in and cast. Could walk in OR Cast.

Round 1 begins (whats to say your Monsters/NPCs can't have initiative feats and traits too?)... Then it evens out the odds a bit. But still flat footed.

Being flat footed just means loose Dex to AC. Try using monsters with low DEX and high Nat AC. and lightning isn't an issue because it's not a touch attack its a save based attack.

Want scenario's to do more damage put traps out. The Wizard that kicks down the door takes a poison needle to the face and gets KO'ed if he fails a save. or a fireball to the feet and takes damage regardless. Fireball can escape detect magic as a trap: Place a bead from necklace of fireball in a tube above the door recessed in the wall door opens the mechanical trap drops the bead down the tube... boom. Not a magical trap. Easier to disable but not detectable with detect magic.

Next option is if they are being silly use their tactics against them introduce an antagonist that watches them learns what they do and both counters it and does something similar to them.

Starting at Armor follow the AC out.

If the attack missed by the amount of armor bonus the attack hit the armor but was deflected.

If the attack missed by the amount of armor and shield then it was blocked by the shield.

If the attack missed by the amount of armor, shield, and deflection bonus it was deflected by an unseen force.

If the attack missed by the amount of armor, shield, deflection, and Dodge+Dex+5 the attack was dodged.

If the attack missed by the amount of armor, shield, deflection, Dodge+Dex+5, and the base 5 for hitting any square then the attack was simply misdirected and had no hope of hitting.

In the case of a high Dex or Monk type that adds Wis to AC. Apply all of the above but apply the rule of 5's to the Wis+Dex+Dodge.

EX: Unarmored monk has Natural(3), Bracers(4), Deflection(3), Wis+Dex+Dodge+10(21) = 31 AC. Against this AC setup, attack roll totals would be responded to as;

"Attacks:
30 to 28 = Get through the magical armor to impact hardened flesh doing no damage."

27 to 24 = Impact magical armor dealing no damage."

23 to 21 = Are deflected by an unseen force."

20 to 16 = Are dodged."

15 to 11 = Are evaded deftly by the target."

10 to 6 = Miss the target."

5 to 1 = look comical to a trained combatant."

Remember each AC setup will be a bit different and you can flavor your responses how you want. But with practice you can use flavor to let your players know how far off they are without number calling as they gain experience with your GM style.

If the damage progression for a club/quarterstaff is listed as:
1d8 > 2d6 > 3d6

Wouldn't the damage progression for a Greatclub be this?:
1d10 > 2d8 > 3d8

Yes that looks correct.

This is the most accurate source I can find for progression of weapon damages starting at medium going to huge. Since I have yet to see a table for it specifically. it might be out there but i just don't know where... yet

From Improved natural attack:
Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.

A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

no probably not a problem for making the kill.

I believe the OP was going for certain assurance of death to occur?

The last part of the last post is just for chuckles,

Since no level 11 should have that much GP to get those items, unless the whole party saved all their pennies for it in which case they probably wouldn't survive till 11, and it still might not be enough to pull it off at 11. Even without the +3d6 elemental attack on the amulet that is still two +5 magic weapons.

But it may be a great NPC tactic to give the group a bit of hell from one NPC but the Items if retrieved would be an awful lot of loot.

Magpied wrote:

Since damage immediately awakens a creature, you can only ever have one character Coup de Grace one enemy at a time?

Afraid so.

Quote:

Can you delay your turn to occur at the same time?

Nope, turns have to be sequential. Closest you can get to simultaneous actions among more than one creature is by interrupting each other with readied actions, but as has been stated, CdG can't be readied.

I guess the immediately awakens the creature is fairly blunt it makes the delay tactic not so useful.

Try Tying up with silk rope that way the creature even after awakening is still helpless.

You can't ready a coup de grace, since it's a full round action.

However, both characters could attempt coups de grace separately.

What you want to use is a Delayed action. "Held action" from quickest attacker.

At least that is how I would run it.

And for the sake of this poste there is a special weapon ability that does not count as a +# called transformative +10,000.
See link:Transformative

This quality should allow for piercing and slashing unarmed strikes, Mr Edward Scissor Hands.

Thus keen and other piercing or slashing weapons abilities can now be considered fair game.

Also see Dueling +14,000gp while you are there also a nice addition to an amulet of mighty fists.

PERSONALLY:
I would add Fury Born and +3d6 of various elemental damages to the amulet that I was building.

I would also get enchanted Gauntlets as these are specifically weapons for unarmed attacks so they can also be enchanted, and have monk unarmed strike damage applied through them. They have the mandatory +1 enhancement before we get into abilities. That leaves at least 4+'s which I would then put into dancing gauntlet(s). Yes a pair.
See Link:Gauntlet

The gauntlets defined as unarmed attacks now benefit from:
- 1 extra attack from from Ki.
- Tops out at +5 Attack and Damage Enhancement bonus from Furyborn.
- So say at level 11 this monk in a combat situation may always have 1 gauntlet active and every 4th round switch them, using a standard action to activate and a free action to reclaim one thus 3 out of 4 rounds he has effectively doubled his attacks.

Level 11 monk 6 attacks with flurry +2 from Speed and Ki = 7 (potentially at +5 attack and damage)
Gauntlet Out = +7 attacks (potentially at +5 attack and damage)
Both gauntlets out IE: 1 round to prepare, Surprise round activate second one = 2 standard actions, so for 2 rounds +14 attacks

In the most "Twinked" version this monk makes a flurry (ignoring STR) that looks like this: (1rst round) 21 attacks

12/13/14/15/16/16/16/11/11/11/11/11/11/11/6/6/6/6/6/6/6

Bonus Damage (+3d6+Enhance) Min: +5/6/7/8/9/9/9/9/9/9/9/9/9/9/9/9/9/9/9/9/9.

then Round 2 begins... if necessary.

Here is the catch, it isn't a feat. Its a weapon enchantment, valued at +1. Could be really nice for druids and clerics as well.

Where from can you cite the source I just searched the SRD and did not find anything on the guided weapon ability.

Although there is a feat called guided hand from UC : link

You all can argue this is allowed by RAW but its ridiculous to me to believe that was the intent.

I agree,

But if attacking an empty space to get buffs makes the player and GM happy even if it is not the intent of the ability it is the intent of the game as a whole. And possibly the point of doing it, you know, just for fun.

If getting reassurance that this is an accurate interpretation of RAW so that they can wholly feel satisfied in their practices. Even if they are in my opinion wasting a round for the sake of buffing. As it really seems to be doable. If it brings a smile to them then I am not to be a naysayer on the issue.

Sometimes its worth a chuckle right?

I would say YES

There is no stipulation that you must successfully hit an opponent.

Attacking an invisible opponent in a square is about the same as attacking an empty square you are simply imagining where the opponent will be and striking as if they were in that spot. This would activate the buffs.

So then, there is nothing to say that your opponent must be hittable or even real. Full attacking an empty square where the fighter imagines an invisible opponent, should work. I believe this is called shadow boxing.

If that is not good enough... Like fireball can be targeted at a square the adjacent square can be declared the opponent and targeted. Full attack the adjacent space as the viable target, done.

It deals damage to undead.

Yup, its pretty clear. Deals damage so disqualified... just wanted to bounce it off of someone first. thanks.

ARG - Magic racial Quality Monstrous RP level - (6RP) Spell like ability at will 3rd level, Cure Serious Wounds?

Do cure spells qualify for the spell like ability for ARG? Does the ability to use it on undead as damage disqualify it? I have seen it on other races such as angels and azatas.

excerpt here from d20pfsrd: Cure Serious

Spell-Like Ability, At-Will (Variable, see Special)

Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Choose a 3rd-level or lower spell that does not attack a creature or deal damage. Members of this race can use this spell as an at-will spell-like ability. The caster level of the spell is equal to the user's character level.
Special: This trait costs as many RP as twice the level of spell chosen (minimum 2). Up to five spells can be chosen when you take this trait. Each time you take an additional spell, adjust the RP cost of this trait appropriately.

If you have a large creature with 'standard' stats (+2 phys, +2 mental, -2 other), the end result would be something like:
This race gains +4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, and -2 Charisma at character creation.

Agreed,

As it is not an in play modifier but a change to stats before creation due to a size category that is a racial quality.

Yes u are correct the two count as 1 creature for all intents and purposes.

you may use your feats as a synthesist because your eidelon doesn't get any of it's own, so as a merged creature you must use your character feats.

if the hand holds a weapon it cannot claw.

you can use multiweapon fighting or twf not both choose 1. and you are limited to the listed attacks while in eidelon form not matter how many arms and weapons you may posess

This doesn't work because Multiweapon Fighting's description says, "This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons," its Prereqs say, "three or more hands," and its Normal line says, "This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms."

A human with two arms and a spectral hand doesn't qualify as "multi-armed," "three or more hands," or "more than two arms."

Having a spell that creates a ghostly hand doesn't count as being a creature having a hand. Nor does carrying around a bag of severed hands or arms.

Awesome! U posed on my Thread! Woot!

(Ahem) Official statement as good as gold.

Thanks.

You can also break it out and place each thought in an independent clause:
1) A ghostly hand is shaped from your life force.
2) This hand materializes.
3) This hand moves as you desire.
4) This hand allows you to deliver low-level, touch range spells at a distance.

If they didn't want to define this as the purpose of the hand, they could have left it out or flat out said, "this hand can do anything a normal hand can do, for example, delivering touch spells at a distance."

As written, the purpose of the hand is to allow you to deliver low-level touch range spells at a distance. Everything else in that sentence...

I stand corrected. Those are awesome grammar skills Gwen. Thanks.

But why then all the description on it moving around? Maybe as a distraction tool?

I guess the HP description allows it to get taken out by spells but if it isn't a creature it can't be targeted by magic missile at least.

Ah well I am satisfied. Thank you to all who helped me get through this one.

It's also worth disproving from the other end:

Quote:

It can be picked up, moved, and worn by corporeal and incorporeal creatures

A spell effect is not a creature, so this part of ghost touch is irrelevant to it. However, a ghost touch weapon would be able to damage it easier than a regular one.

Thank God for Bobson!

You have found the lethal statement that brings the trick all down. The hand is not a creature thus ghost touch does not apply. Thank you.

Many have said it just doesn't work, but none have pointed out that little bit of Eureka! Thank you for being constructive Bobson. My faith in the unbreakable Pathfinder is restored.

It definitely wont work then as a means of manipulating items ghost touch or otherwise. I suppose you could slap a ghost with it but being immune to nonlethal damage as undead they probably would just ignore it.

This ends my delving into that application as I have a solid written reason as to why it does not work.

Calth,
I included the web links because I want the entirety of the thing looked into I am not choosing to ignore the fact that it can make touch attacks. I will however point out all of the punctuation breaks that change the meaning;
From: No comma "A ghostly hand shaped from your life force materializes and moves as you desire (only) allowing you to deliver low-level, touch range spells at a distance."
To: As written "A ghostly hand shaped from your life force materializes and moves as you desire, (also) allowing you to deliver low-level, touch range spells at a distance."
Making the touch spell delivery a byproduct like it is a byproduct of having a familiar that can fly.

fretgod99,
Got it. The fighter is taking a level of sorcerer to use the spell completion item wand with the spell in it. So that it resolves the you in the description the you part was an oversight. Got it now.

Adamantine Dragon,
I am simply trying to get an understanding around the nature of the spell as it has a lot of needless, extraneous game properties that really go above and beyond the simple intent of a spell to deliver touch attacks at range.

I am sorry to see that you feel I am doing something wrong or negative in your opinion, and that I would be in another golf course (game system?) as it were with this. Most of the other spells are simply and elegantly written this one however has more to it than just an extension of range, why do you think that is?

I too am extremely confident that it violates rules as intended. So what was the intent for all of the movement description, and composition of the hand if not to be used in some way? Are they just a bunch of wasted words? what was the purpose behind them? Can you justify the majority of this spell's description as to how it applies to discharging a touch spell at medium range with +2 to attack?

wraithstrike,
I apologize for misunderstanding the meaning of RAW. I was clearly under the impression that if it was written in the description as a statement then that statement held true. I believe if the fighter takes a level of sorcerer then he can qualify for all the you statements in the spell description if he activates the wand with spectral hand as a spell completion item since he then has on his spell list as a future potential spell spectral hand.

Generally,
I read that the spell makes the hand that is it. The touch attacking is a byproduct of the spell that makes the tool that allows it.

Like making a hammer with a spell. What I am hearing that if the spell does not say the hammer can be used to hammer nails then by RAW it cannot be used to hammer nails?

The spell seems to quite clearly state that it moves about as desired, and can make attacks so long as they are from the direction of the caster. The description also gives it the necessary qualifiers to interact with ghost touch. In addition to the +2 bonus when touch attacking and all of the other things it can do when holding and discharging a touch spell.

Many of the sentences in the description state that the hand has a purpose, and by punctuation detail other purposes. <- like that sentence is constructed -> (Open ended use, and 1 defined purpose).

Lets say the majority is correct here. Then whats is the use of all the assignment of HP, "moves as you desire", and attacking with it counting normally as an attack (which is redundant as it already stated it is making a touch attack)

The spell could simply say: allows spells with the range of touch to be delivered at a distance (add non game affecting fluff here). There is no need for HP, moves as desired, attacks from direction of caster, and etc. If all the spell truly does is make allow the discharge of a touch range spell at distance +2 to attack.

I wouldn't want a hasty ruling on this either as that would make the majority of the spell's description fairly useless. Unless it can be otherwise justified?

Thanks everyone for your reposes I guess to sum up where I am at now is that: Rules As Intended vs Rules As Written

Yes you are all correct RAI, unfortunately RAW I still have issues with these statements in the spell's description, combined with the descriptions of ghost touch.
Spectral Hand
Ghost Touch Armor
Ghost Touch Weapons

Within these descriptions are the following full ideas separated by periods and commas. This is not inferred just quoted RAW.
"A ghostly hand shaped from your life force materializes and moves as you desire", "On casting the spell, you lose 1d4 hit points that return when the spell ends (even if it is dispelled), but not if the hand is destroyed. (The hit points can be healed as normal.)" " and attacking with the hand counts normally as an attack. The hand always strikes from your direction. The hand cannot flank targets like a creature can."

"The hand is incorporeal and thus cannot be harmed by normal weapons. It has improved evasion (half damage on a failed Reflex save and no damage on a successful save), your save bonuses, and an AC of 22 (+8 size, +4 natural armor). Your Intelligence modifier applies to the hand's AC as if it were the hand's Dexterity modifier. The hand has 1 to 4 hit points, the same number that you lost in creating it."

This is all of the text that has nothing to do with adding range to a touch attack spell.

As the word of power range just adds range to touch words very simply. Paizo could have accomplished this spell just as elegantly. But they did not. Which points out that there is more to the RAI than a simple touch spell delivery at range (see flying familiars for wizards that do just about the same thing).

Then there is the Ghost Touch Effects
"It can be picked up, moved, and worn by corporeal and incorporeal creatures alike. Incorporeal creatures gain the armor's or shield's enhancement bonus against both corporeal and incorporeal attacks, and they can still pass freely through solid objects." -From Armor

"The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal." - From Weapon

The Glue that makes it all come together:
- A ghostly hand shaped from your life force materializes and moves as you desire
-The hand is incorporeal and thus cannot be harmed by normal weapons.
-and attacking with the hand counts normally as an attack.

These statements define the hand as a manifested ghostly incorporeal hand. That is a lot of inclusive statements to the ones in the ghost touch. RAW

I understand the argument for RAI, but stated directly RAW it is useable to attack as desired which counts as a normal attack and ghost touch weapons (and armor) can be manipulated by it also RAW, but maybe not RAI.

If the fighter takes a level of sorcerer it will belay the monstrosity until level 5 as then he will be able to whirlwind attack and use the wand his self to satisfy the "as you desire". If the fighter desires to pick up a ghost touch weapon and attack with it as a normal attack at 130ft then it moves as he desires. and strikes from his direction.

Thanks for the clarification on ghosts have no strength so I can at least deny him those bonuses to his attack and damage. But that still leaves 130ft whirlwind attack but at level 5 a fireball is way more powerful. And if I don't throw armies at them the effectiveness of it at higher levels diminishes. At level 10+ without the strength to back it up it may be useable many times but for small change in damage compared to other forms of attack that do use modifiers from strength.

So to answer your question Evil Lincoln,
If it's fun and enjoyable for a group it is a good thing, if it is a good thing. If even one person GM included feels it makes the game unbalanced and not fun then no it needs to be adjusted or not allowed.

I think it does work RAW i will force them to level a few times using the recommendations here and once they blow their loot on the concept to try it out and at the same time show them that a fireball is more effective in a 30x30 dungeon room. Without STR mod it wont take down a CR 7 Boss. The knee jerk reaction of the range will become a lack luster disappointment in closer quarters. I'll probably give them a low level necklace of fireballs to try at the same time to drive the point home and not make them feel bad about the 50% sell back on the equipment to try their concept.

I think it is a good thing that they have great ideas and team work. I also think i should let them try. I will tell them of the restrictions and limited damage output beforehand as that is only fair. If they wish to continue they can have a unique and marginally useful item combination for a price.

I don't think multi weapon fighting is legal as human has no 3rd hand and specital hand does not count as it does not last more then 24 hours. The rules around here some where? It the same one that does not let you get int skill points from fox cunning spell or int boosting stats item unless you have that item in use for over 24 hours.

Thanks for the assist on the prerequisite for the feat, that will stall them for 1 level, till whirlwind attack and then back to square 1 since that is perfectly legal for the fighter to take and use.

Assuming then that the group receives the reasoning no because that's not the way amulet of mighty fists imparts the ghost touch property ie: it only works on the fighter's actual hands. They take the funds from the amulet and put it in to purchasing a ghost touch weapon for that purpose.

I posted a question similar to this earlier but given a couple of weeks my group broke it further.

Human Fighter level 3 Has High DEX and STR: Dodge, Mobility, MultiWeapon Fighting, Combat Expertise for feats

QUESTION 1) Prereq for multiweapon fighting is 3 or more hands. Legal to get but not use unless 3 or more hands are attained ie: spectral hand? Note: this would not change the application it is just reducing the penalties to do it.

Group Purchases Wand of Spectral Hand (Sor/Wiz level 2) CL3 130ft distance to make melee attacks.

Question 2) does this count as "reach"? And do squares that fall within this distance to character count as "Threatened"?

Group Purchases Amulet of mighty fists With Ghost touch as it's +1 Bonus

So Far everything is ok RAW as I understand it.

Group knows large fight is coming, they take a minute to use the wand 6 times and cast 4 spells of spectral hand giving the fighter effectively 12 hands.

Combine with amulet of mighty fists: (+1 ghost touch), all 12 hands count as both corporeal and incorporeal for better or worse.

Fighter then picks up 12 short swords with his strength +7 1d6+4, Pally kicks the door down Fighter makes a 5 ft adjust in and makes 12 attacks at +5 1d6+4 as a surprise action with the rest of the group firing arrows at the survivors. Fighter has the initiative in the standard round and cleans the first encounter up with his 12 attacks.

Group effort. Still have 18 rounds to run through the dungeon with 12 attacks per 1 Full attack action... RAW legal?

At level 4 I believe the fighter is going for whirlwind attack which then the wand would only need be used once or twice for a two handed weapon and the fighter can become a 130ft area of effect at his highest base attack against all creatures in his reach for 3 minutes. IF the group invests in 1 decent magic weapon and the fighter 2x spectral hands it he can potentially get a lot of damage with the element +1d6's.

Is there something i am missing in the rules here or is this totally legit? Cheesy yes, GTFO cheesy, but also RAW legit so far as i can tell. Reward creativity and group effort, or spank the whole team?

I am the one making the item. The Character is a Warrior Cleric making a variant Rod of Lordly might. Fewer but more powerful/focused functions. He wants to make sure that only faithful members of his religion can use the item.

If you are willing to pay the full price for the items creation and accept that it will be less useful to a mixed party and have less resell value to boot then your GM should be good with it. I would.

Unfortunately anyone with a high enough use magic device skill will be able to use it even if you place restrictions on it during creation. As that is a primary part of the skill.

In any case you will have to work it out with your GM, but be wary if a house rule is put into place that UMD can no longer be used to "Trick" a magic item that may impact your group in a future session or future games.

The way I read it:

As Undead the fort save only applies to the dex damage and so undead are immune to the dex damage.

Incorporeal take half damage from spells where this cold damage is from a spell they would take half as there is no save against the cold damage. so 50% cold damage.

RAW this spell states that if they move even 5 feet on their turn they can avoid the encasement effect.

Although they probably wouldn't stand around while their existence is being threatened by the cold damage.

Adding d20pfsrd quotes to assist in the discussion:

-----
Ghost Touch
Price +1 bonus
Aura moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Weight —

DESCRIPTION
A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature's 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons. The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, plane shift; Cost +1 bonus

-----
Spectral Hand
School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 2, witch 2

CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect one spectral hand
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

DESCRIPTION
A ghostly hand shaped from your life force materializes and moves as you desire, allowing you to deliver low-level, touch range spells at a distance. On casting the spell, you lose 1d4 hit points that return when the spell ends (even if it is dispelled), but not if the hand is destroyed. (The hit points can be healed as normal.) For as long as the spell lasts, any touch range spell of 4th level or lower that you cast can be delivered by the spectral hand. The spell gives you a +2 bonus on your melee touch attack roll, and attacking with the hand counts normally as an attack. The hand always strikes from your direction. The hand cannot flank targets like a creature can. After it delivers a spell, or if it goes beyond the spell range or goes out of your sight, the hand returns to you and hovers.

The hand is incorporeal and thus cannot be harmed by normal weapons. It has improved evasion (half damage on a failed Reflex save and no damage on a successful save), your save bonuses, and an AC of 22 (+8 size, +4 natural armor). Your Intelligence modifier applies to the hand's AC as if it were the hand's Dexterity modifier. The hand has 1 to 4 hit points, the same number that you lost in creating it.

-----
Incorporeal (Ex)

An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.

An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).

An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.

An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.

An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Perception checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.

I see modifiers for 'must be a specific class', 'must be a specific alignment' or 'requires a specific skill to function' but nothing with a restriction based on religion.

I would use skill type (profession: religious Sarenrae) or knowledge religion: Sarenrae as the skill requirement and follow those rules.

I would apply the same restrictions on activating such an Item as if the skill Use Magic Device were being used to trigger the effects:

FROM "Use Magic Device" SKILL specifically "Other Spell Trigger Item": DC from the Table is 20

"Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge.

Action
-None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item.

Try Again
-Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can't try to activate that item again for 24 hours.

Special
-You cannot take 10 with this skill.
-You can't aid another on Use Magic Device checks. Only the user of the item may attempt such a check."

PERSONAL NOTE:
I honestly feel that this aspect of magic item creation is one of the pivotal points in the game where magic item creation can be easily broken by players with too much loot. Especially if you allow players to combine restrictions such as Alignment Good/Evil (x0.7), Alignment Chaos/Law (x0.7), Class (x0.7), and Skill Restriction (x0.9) it reduces the price to simply too little for a balanced item.

It must be a cumulative multiplication of the cost reduction and not an additive sum of percentages because (0.3+0.3+0.3+0.1 = 1 or 100%) in other words a free magic item to create. Still with the multiplicative method every 2000gp in cost becomes 617gp and 4 silver, or about 885gp if you do not count the difference in alignment bases and just consider one specific alignment to be the restriction.

I wouldn't allow it in my game but there is no RAW that says it cannot be done, not that I have come across anyway. If you are just allowing the skill restriction its only 10% and if the DC is significant then it should be manageable.

So, it could arguably work with the Two Weapon Fighting rules, but...

Thus It can be done RAW just with large attack penalties as if using two weapons without the TWF Feat. That seems elegant and fair to me. Its not constraining to the player options and allows for a sense of balance. Sacrificing accuracy for that extra strength push of 1.5x on the first strike.

Hello,

I have read Ghost touch, Incorporeal, and Spectral Hand through multiple times. I have searched all of the forums multiple times and read a plethora of ghost touch and spectral hand entries with replies. After all that I don't think this specific concern has been addressed. I'm looking for hopefully either a Paizo Dev to chime in at some point or someone to point me to a post that settles the questions i have.

1) Is this a spell that attacks a creature or does the spell effect allow a creature to be attacked?

I read spectral hand as a spell that creates a ghostly "incorporeal" hand that can move about and "allows" for touch attacks to be made at range.

As I read it: This to me is not a spell that attacks but rather creates a hand that allows for an attack to be preformed as a byproduct of the fact that it is made from the caster's life force. This alters an adverse condition that would prevent the touch spell from striking, this condition in particular is "out of range". Similar to the light spell in a completely dark dungeon (darkness) allows the caster to attack foes that would otherwise have had 100% concealment.

This is important for qualifying for an Advance Race Guide option: "spell like ability" = Benefit: Choose a 2nd-level or lower spell that does not attack a creature or deal damage...

2) Can the spectral hand puck up and attack with ghost touch weapons at range?

As I read it: The hand is ghostly, and incorporeal, and manifest out of the caster's HP. This is almost perfectly directed at the ghost touch property. It does not return to the caster's side unless it delivers a spell. It can be directed as the caster wishes. It is made from the caster's life force so has HP and to my understanding from other forum posts will use the caster's STR mod to attack and in this case damage. It states that attacks made with the hand count normally as attacks. Full attacks can be made with 1 hand.

Put all of this together and a character with ghost touch can as if wielding a ghost touch weapon normally, make a single or full attack action at the range determined by the spectral hand spell, without the normal +2 to hit that the spell grants because it is not making a touch attack.

3) Can spectral hand be cast a second time without dispelling the first spectral hand?

As i Read the spell: The spell spectral hand unlike light does not specify that it may only have 1 instance of it's casting.

If a character had the Two Weapon Fighting Feats, Flurry, or Multi-Attack then they could cast this spell again within the duration of the first spell pickup a second weapon in their off hand and apply these feats as normal to the full attack option that they may apply as normal to the normal attacks made by the spectral hand. Granted 1) and 2) above also hold true.

Please clarify as being able to make full attacks with flurry or TWF at longbow range can already be done by the Zen archer Arch-type for the monk. This does not sound to unfeasible as a fighter would have to have a good spell caster willing to give up a spell for them, or train up use magic device plus get a wand and then they would also have to spend the loot to enchant the weapons with ghost touch. The balancing factor is that it costs a +1 weapon enchantment on 2 weapons, and RP for a race, a spell for a wizard, skill points for a fighter, or an Arch-type for a monk to all do about the same thing, multiple attacks at range 100ft+

It seems applicable to me, I really don't any rules conflicts in the logic. Nor does it seem too broken as a Zen archer can already pretty much just do it (albeit using ranged attacks and dexterity/wisdom to hit).

Really hoping for a Dev to say yes that would work RAW, or no it doesn't work because of this "FAQ, Errata, Rule pgXX, etc."

Let me guess he's using create wondrous item... that's my personal favorite when aiming to break the system.

the way i calculate it is:
Caster Level x Spell Level x 2000 (continuous) x 2 for min duration = 4000gp and 2000 to make.

Things to watch out for:
- Alignment and class limited items. I wouldn't allow it.
- Lower Caster level items, again I would say no unless it has a direct effect on the number of damage dice.
- limit the number of spell services rendered per week as this is the fastest way to make money other than adventuring. And have consequences for loitering in a town performing spell services.

Basically what its all going to have to boil down to is weighing how much loot you are going to grant your players with how fast you want them to increase in power other than that follow the formulas in the book and never be afraid to say no.

An understanding player will accept that their skills may offset the balance of the game.

I recommend you read the magic item creation rules in depth and set your limits to what can be made. there is no reason you have to allow continuous items to be created... command word items are just as useful for the sake of practicality, even if they really aren't as useful. Another thing I like to do is place the mandatory 1-5 charges per day on created items, "to represent the untried nature of a new recipe".

Best of luck and remember its your world. If things get out of hand don't be afraid to introduce anti-magic crystals... 5' radius per square inch... such as the head of a bolt or arrow.

Be creative and have fun.