I have come out of the forum lurking phase to pose an intellectual question and my own view on the matter. I have seen people link Kellids to both Celts and Germans, and I want to see a discussion on what you guys think the Kellid IRL analog is. I believe they are closer to the Germanic tribes for three reasons. Reason 1, their language has been described as course. I believe that German is coarser than the Celtic languages, which isn't a bad thing, but it just has harsher and harder sounds. Reason 2, Kellids live in colder areas. The Celtic regions of today aren't really cold, at least not as cold as northern Germany. Reason 3, from most of the depictions of Kellids it can be inferred they aren't very stylistic or artistic in a visual sense. The Celts were renowned for their art and styles while Germanic tribes often borrowed Celtic and Roman styles of art. Both were great at story telling though. A counter argument is that Kellids have a lot of druids, which is the epitome Celticness. There is also a large chance that they are a kind of merge between Celt and German. Now what is your view on the matter?
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From everything I've seen, it's primarily very loosely based on Celtic culture through the lens of Conan's Cimmerians. It's not a precise cultural match, but I believe those looking to put down roots for Celtic analogues have had the Kellids suggested as the go-to ethnicity.
I want to say it's been suggested that Sarkoris was the closest cultural match for Celts. Before it blew up, that is. (though it seems we're getting an opportunity to fix that in Wrath of the Righteous) That might make Mendev the next most Celt-like place to look.
There's some Kellid influence in Ustalav, which seems flavored along the lines of how Victorian English saw the old standing stones and other markers left before them.
Then there's the land of the Mammoth Lords, but that seems much more People of the ______ than anything as "recent" as Celtic or Germanic culture.
Numeria is probably the most powerful Kellid land, but it is probably of minimal use to look at as a standard for Kellid culture because of all the alien spaceship wreckage and people huffing system coolant throwing off the curve.
I can't say there's a lot of support for it for sure, but when I think "Germanic" in the setting, some Chelaxians come to mind. But a lot of folks probably get folded into that ethnicity as far as rough analogues go.
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For (modernish) Germanic, perhaps Molthune and Druma (thinking Prussia and Switzerland, very loosely).
Now, there's a lot more similarities than people realise between Germanic and Celtic tribes; there was a lot of influence from La Tene, and in what is now modern Germany and its neighbors they mingled and lived next door to each other. The Romans couldn't always tell the difference, and speaking a Celtic language didn't make you more or less culturally Celtic; there are Celtic-speaking peoples partook much less of the Celtic artistic tradition, i.e., the Galatians in Anatolia.
For (modernish) Germanic, perhaps Molthune and Druma (thinking Prussia and Switzerland, very loosely).
Now, there's a lot more similarities than people realise between Germanic and Celtic tribes; there was a lot of influence from La Tene, and in what is now modern Germany and its neighbors they mingled and lived next door to each other. The Romans couldn't always tell the difference, and speaking a Celtic language didn't make you more or less culturally Celtic; there are Celtic-speaking peoples partook much less of the Celtic artistic tradition, i.e., the Galatians in Anatolia.
Though there were similarities both cultures were very distinct. Also the La Tène culture wasn't as far reaching as its Hallstat ancestor, which was in at the time an extremely Celtic region. Many of the western Celts were for the most part free of Germanic influences, like Spain or the British Isles.
I always have seen them more as pagan Slavs, Huns, Scythians, and such.
If you had been lurking the Kellid threads here, you probably already know that, though. :-)
Likewise we see in the areas of Ulfen/Kellid interaction a bunch of pseudo-Russian/Slavic names,
which mirrors the real-world foundation of the Russian state-people from Slavic, Swedish, and 'other tribes' of the area.
(sorry "other tribes", my memory is not that strong)
I don't understand the disinclination to look at Numeria as a case of Kellid culture,
alien spacecraft can land anywhere, whether that is Egypt-analogue, Eurasian-steppe analogue, Rome-analogue, or China-analogue
has a pretty clear and inheritable cultural flavor, even if there develops particularities to that situation.
I don't even see why people think that the vast majority of Kellids living in Numeria are living a particularly different lifestyle,
just because robots and extraterrestrial ooze is "flashy" doesn't mean it overthrows everyday life everywhere in the country.
I believe James Jacobs has said there isn't really a Celtic analogue culture per se.
Molthune definitely has major elements of Roman Military meets Prussia.
I know I have seen a Germanic name somewhere or another in Golarion, but Paizo may not be strictly enforcing ethno-linguistic norms.
(Galt also has some clearly Finnic stuff going on, especially in Azurestone)
Golarion has a shocking lack of distinct ethnicities when compared to the real world,
so the ethnicities they do have are likely to pull double duty with similarities to multiple real-world peoples/cultures/etc.
But you are probably best off thinking of them as Cimmerians rather than worrying about what specific real-world ethnicity is the closest.
I don't know, but I want to make a lot of characters in Armored Kilts.
As an aside, I thought the Iobarians were Golarian's Keltic analogue?
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Though there were similarities both cultures were very distinct. Also the La Tène culture wasn't as far reaching as its Hallstat ancestor, which was in at the time an extremely Celtic region. Many of the western Celts were for the most part free of Germanic influences, like Spain or the British Isles.For (modernish) Germanic, perhaps Molthune and Druma (thinking Prussia and Switzerland, very loosely).
Now, there's a lot more similarities than people realise between Germanic and Celtic tribes; there was a lot of influence from La Tene, and in what is now modern Germany and its neighbors they mingled and lived next door to each other. The Romans couldn't always tell the difference, and speaking a Celtic language didn't make you more or less culturally Celtic; there are Celtic-speaking peoples partook much less of the Celtic artistic tradition, i.e., the Galatians in Anatolia.
The Iberocelts, and the British and Irish Celts, while partaking of some of the core Celtic culture, were peripheral. They are significant now because more of their culture survived to our day. Genetically, the British and Irish are partly related to the Basques, while the Germans are 50% Continental Celtic. Hence the Western Celts may preserve what are probably pre-Indo-European cultural details.
Celtic culture is generally defined archaeologically. The core area is next door to the Germanic peoples. But, based on my readings of South Asian history and "Indo-European-ness" and what that means, they had fundamentally similar religions, traded with each other, and intermarried. From outside the Indo-European tribalist perspective, they are remarkably close. Much closer than, say, Tibetans and Burmese and North Indians, for example.As a fictional people, the Kellids can't be considered to be any one people. Their culture is resembles Indo-European (and, as noted above, even Finno-Ugric) barbarians.
A former gigantic Siberian empire? I just read the the PF Wiki - in the section on Casmaron it says says the Iobarian empire was Ulfen. [EDIT - actually that is incorrect, it says there are descendants of Ulfen settlers in what was Iobaria]
I am glad this forum is filled with educated and intelligent people.
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A former gigantic Siberian empire? I just read the the PF Wiki - in the section on Casmaron it says says the Iobarian empire was Ulfen.
Well, there are actually three main countries based on Russia/the Slaves: Irrisen, Brevoy, and Iobaria. All are a mix of Ulfen, Kellid, and other tribes. The Ulfen empire in Iobaria derives from the Varangian Rus, most likely. But in its current state - there's no real civilization now, it reflects Russia east of the Urals, more or less, during the late medieval/early modern period.
Cool. I'm not sure where I read the Iobarian=Brittannia/Celts. If I find it I'll link it.
Varangian Rus is fun...
I think it's mainly that in the English-speaking/Western European cultural perspective, Celts (and Germanics) are the "go to" culture when thinking of 'indigenous European culture' with other pagan Indo-European or non-IE cultures being much less familiar, so that's what alot of people might associate them with. But like Jeff said, a less defined 'Indo-European' culture (also including non-IE groupings such as Finno-Ugric) is probably the most accurate analogy.
In addition to the Slavic names found in the Ulfen/Kellid interface region, Sarkoris itself seems comfortably within a proto-Slavic region, for example, the name of the famous ancient warlord of Sarkoris: Uloric Dziergas (the last name being an actual Polish name), so I think that Slavic drift exists independent of Ulfen influence even though Ulfen influence also seems to be important in those Slavic-drift regions, likewise the natives of Mendev are referred to as "Iobarian". I would say that such crypto-Slavic examples might be understood as a developing ethnicity in it's own right even if still listed as Kellid, likewise the "Finnic" examples (in Galt, Irrisen) could be understood as exemplifying another "corner" of the broader Kellid ethnocultural range.
Cool. I'm not sure where I read the Iobarian=Brittannia/Celts. If I find it I'll link it.
Varangian Rus is fun...
On Pg.56 of of Varnhold Vanishing - the one with the Iobaria Gazeteer - there is a picture of a VERY Celtic looking woman right next to the entry "People of Iobaria". She is clearly a warrior, and the Celts were one of the few ancient peoples to use their women in their armies. AFAIK, the Germans did not.
Not sure if that artwork is available for linking anywhere on the interwebs, but when I saw that I thought the same thing (Golarion Celts).
On the other hand, I always thought of the Kellid as Cimmerians... probably because of that picture of 'conan' they used in the ISG. In that same book, the picture of Markwin Teldas on Pg.125 (in the Molthune section) just screams "Germany" to me. Their aggressive, expansionist attitude is also reminiscent of the 3rd Reich (but what empire/kingdom isn't?)
Maybe the older Celtic/Germanic tribes for Kellids, but I would agree with the more primitive/primal Conan feel.
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I thought they were cavemen. Like Neanderthals or something else that's very neolithic. They just seem like they're by far the most primitive human race in Golarion and that's sort of their hat. And if it's not that, it's just living in the worst possible landscape. It's like they either live where civilization was either ended or hasn't started yet. Either being cavemen for generations or some kind of post-apocalyptic tribe.
I think the Neanderthal idea kind of figures into the whole German thing, with the Neanderthals being named after a part of northern Germany after all.
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I thought they were cavemen. Like Neanderthals or something else that's very neolithic. They just seem like they're by far the most primitive human race in Golarion and that's sort of their hat. And if it's not that, it's just living in the worst possible landscape. It's like they either live where civilization was either ended or hasn't started yet. Either being cavemen for generations or some kind of post-apocalyptic tribe.
I think the Neanderthal idea kind of figures into the whole German thing, with the Neanderthals being named after a part of northern Germany after all.
See, that's exactly how I imagined the Kellids. It doesn't exactly help that what we see of them has them dressed in crude hides, riding and hunting woolly mammoths, and living in hide tents with mammoth tusk palisades.
That doesn't feel very Celtic to me. I've been looking for something like that for a while now, something I can play as to REALLY get my "semi-historical King Arthur" on.
Cool. I'm not sure where I read the Iobarian=Brittannia/Celts. If I find it I'll link it.
Varangian Rus is fun...
On Pg.56 of of Varnhold Vanishing - the one with the Iobaria Gazeteer - there is a picture of a VERY Celtic looking woman right next to the entry "People of Iobaria". She is clearly a warrior, and the Celts were one of the few ancient peoples to use their women in their armies. AFAIK, the Germans did not.
Not sure if that artwork is available for linking anywhere on the interwebs, but when I saw that I thought the same thing (Golarion Celts).
On the other hand, I always thought of the Kellid as Cimmerians... probably because of that picture of 'conan' they used in the ISG. In that same book, the picture of Markwin Teldas on Pg.125 (in the Molthune section) just screams "Germany" to me. Their aggressive, expansionist attitude is also reminiscent of the 3rd Reich (but what empire/kingdom isn't?)
Shieldmaidens are distinctivly Germanic/Norse.
I think the Kellid people is as diverse as were the real world Celtic, Germanic and Slavic tribes. While the ones in the Realm of the Mammoth Lords are more like a mixture between Howard's Cimmerians (which are proto-celtic) and Martin's wildlings, farther east they seem to be influenced by various European tribes, no matter what ethnic group they belonged to.
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Nirmathas does have a vaguely Celtic (and Robin Hood) feel. One of the adventures set there features a barrow, for instance.
A more romantic "King Arthur" figure might come from Lastwall, just to the south.
Both regions are apparently Taldane/Chelish in origin, not Kellid, however.
That's true. If I wanted to play a "Knight of the Round Table" I could easily play someone from Lastwall or Mendev. My concern is more with Iron Age King Arthur, like described in Bernard Cornwell's Warlord Chronicles or Rosemary Sutcliff's Sword at Sunset.
I agree that the kellids feel like early Slavs to me. I think the Shoanti have a more early Celtic feel to them. Of course there might not be direct analogs for actual cultures with all of the barbarians in Golarion being a little of this and a little of that. For instance Varisians are clearly inspired by gypsies but not exactly the same.
That Iobarian chick from the Iobaria Gazetteer definitely looks Celtic. I guess some of the tribes of Iobaria have a Celtic feel.
the Celts were one of the few ancient peoples to use their women in their armies.
Or... THE classical female warrior archetype: the Amazons, who seemed to live north of the Danube to the Ukrainian steppe, vaguely ascribed to tribes such as Scythians and other residents of the area. Plenty of burial mound archaeology is found in this region as well.
Realm of the Mammoth Lords is really it's own distinct variation of the Kellid people, and even there I don't think you can fully characterize the Kellid there as 'cavemen'/Neanderthals... Neanderthals or 'primitive man'/'cave men' have a distinct non-Kellid representation in Golarion AFAIK... The wildlife of the region (mammoths, dinosaurs in one region) certainly lend it much more of that flavor, but the tribes are also involved in intercontinental trade caravans, and build/live in defensive stockade towns.
Regardless, there's no way the Mammoth Lords comprise a large proportion of Kellids as a whole... even if you completely ignore 'assimilated' Kellids in countries like Galt, the populations of Sarkoris, Numeria, Mendev, Brevoy, Iobaria, River Kingdoms, and Irrissen must simply far outnumber the Mammoth Lords Kellid. While Kellids clearly play a role as a 'disorganized' people of the savage north (compared to Inner Sea proper), I don't think they are meant to be solely reduced that role: Sarkoris in it's heigh-day was seemingly a thriving if not super-advanced civilization. The historic rise of the Cults of the Great Olds ones amongst them seems highly relevant to how their society progressed, before which things presumably had a different trajectory, and other trajectories have likewise developed since then (e.g. medieval Slavic kingdoms and the Black Sea-Uralic Khanate model).
Vendor - Fantasiapelit Tampere
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Kellids are kinda messed up when trying to determine the fantasy counterpart culture. The obvious relation to Cimmerians is there, but also they have stuff adapted from cro-magnon humans, celts, inuits, germanic tribes from Roman times and just even a little bit of Finnish. It really depends where the Kellids live- Sarkoris oozes kinda Celtic thing, as does the tribes that live in Isger and Druma, while those in Numeria are msot "Cimmerian" to me. It really depens where they live.
Iobaria, we need full adventure path righ there.
We'll considering that kellids will be addressed in the upcoming People of the River player companion, I'd say Kellid culture will vary heavily depending on the nation your in.
RotML: northern prehistoric tribes
Sarkoris: Celtic warrior society
Numeria: john carter/Gor warrior society
River Kingdoms: Medieval warrior society(non-romantic type)
In all senses though they share a common theme, warrior societies valuing strength and divine magic. Who share a hatred of magic, typically from witches (though in Numeria's case any member of the technic league).
Not every ethnicity has to be based solely on one group of people.
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The Kellids are... Well, I wouldn't say Celtic nor Germanic. So, let's break it down a tad.
Realm of the Mammoth Lords: Here, the Kellids are nomadic hunter-gatherers with strong shamanistic ties. There just isn't a strong analogue with any proper culture from earth, because so many ancient peoples were like this.
Sarkoris/Mendev: Here, things start to shape up. While still very close to the same belief structures as their cousins in the RotML, the Kellids here had a 'unified' state. They built structures, both secular and religious. And this is where they begin to defferentiate themselves because the buildings seen so far are fairly advanced, yet the standing stones and such heavily imply an ancient culture. Remember, most archaeologists now recognize that most henges in Europe were built by another ancient peoples that were not Celts. The Kellids appear to take after this ancient and largely lost culture.
Numeria: And this is where things get freaky. Because of just how dichotomous this realm is, one can't really make a comparison. The Kellid people are both sedentary and nomadic, with some in one camp, and others in another. Their culture though is still very Kellid: Strength is Best. Yet where the people of the RotML and S/M were shamanistic, the Kellids here are definitely not. They may have faith like either their ancestors or like their neighbors, but this relegated to a backburner in favor of dealing with the alien tech that litters the region. Basically what one would get from a proto-state that suddenly acquired 21st century medicine, robots and ray-guns.
Basically, the 'savage' or 'cavemen' Kellids are, well, nomadic hunter-gatherers. No major parallel as such. The Kellids of Sarkoris/Numeria were dichotomous in that they had the ability to build permanent homes, forts and businesses like their neighbors but still were largely shamanistic like their neighbors to the west. The 'southern' Kellids of Numeria though are throwing off their ancient past to get rich/powerful off of the tech from their countries best (and most dangerous) resource. They cannot be classified as Celtic nor Germanic. We'd have to look at them as a transitional people of ancient Eurasia.
Hey maybe someone can settle/find something for me.
I think I remember reading somewhere where Summoners are accepted or have a place in Kellid society, unlike just about anywhere else in Golarion.
Is this a mistake on my part? I mainly read the copies of books other people have, I only have the core books, and a couple of Pathfinders.
If I am not mistaken, can someone tell me which book this is mentioned in?
You are correct. Only they aren't called summoners. They are God Callers. They view and believe that the eidolons that they share a connection with are gods. The first reference I know off hand would be in Dave Gross's book King of Chaos, and I think they have a write up in the Inner Sea NPC Codex.
Ancient Celt and Germanic (and Scandinavian) tribes where often indistinguishable to outsiders...the Romans often mis named tribes as one or the other.
The Ulfen strike me as a great analog of Germanic/Scandinavian culture.
The Kellid tribes, at least as they exist currently don't actually strike me as having anything in common with either Celtic or Germanic culture...
Sorkorian culture actually sounds VERY Celtic to me, and that's how I'm playing it off in our games
You are correct. Only they aren't called summoners. They are God Callers. They view and believe that the eidolons that they share a connection with are gods. The first reference I know off hand would be in Dave Gross's book King of Chaos, and I think they have a write up in the Inner Sea NPC Codex.Hey maybe someone can settle/find something for me.
I think I remember reading somewhere where Summoners are accepted or have a place in Kellid society, unlike just about anywhere else in Golarion.
Is this a mistake on my part? I mainly read the copies of books other people have, I only have the core books, and a couple of Pathfinders.
If I am not mistaken, can someone tell me which book this is mentioned in?
I don't know about Kellid tribes, but the Sarkorians numbered them among their Druid's under the title "God caller", along with Witches, Oracles, and Sorcerers (Lost Kingdoms pg 45).
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the Celts were one of the few ancient peoples to use their women in their armies.Or... THE classical female warrior archetype: the Amazons, who seemed to live north of the Danube to the Ukrainian steppe, vaguely ascribed to tribes such as Scythians and other residents of the area. Plenty of burial mound archaeology is found in this region as well.
At the time of the Ancient Greeks, that area was inhabited by Celtic people.
Actually, if you are talking about the era of the Trojan War, the Cimmerians were Iranian or Thracian. After the Cimmerians were the Scythians, who were also Iranian. The notion that Cimmerians = Celts seems to have developed from Robert E. Howard.