Nope - they don't.
Have a look at Stonelord (Dwarven Paladin archetype) for one example of a good one.
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There is a huge difference between sucking and being suboptimal :P
Indeed, Scarred Witch Doctor is pretty beastly.
Maybe I'm missing something, but what about the stonelord doesn't suck? It gives up the most powerful non-casting offensive ability in the game in exchange for the ability to bypass hardness, and it gives up one of the best defensive abilities in the game for some damage reduction. . .
Dwarves have a racial penalty to Charisma, both of the abilities you give up are based on Charisma.
On Divine Grace vs DR - Dwarves have a lesser need for saves boosting as they get Hardy (which can be upgraded to Steel Soul), and Heartstone comes with a Natural Armor boost as well. Just ask an Invulnerable Rager if DR at 1/2 level is any good or not (fun fact - it's pretty good).
Stonestrike is inferior to Smite Evil... that point is moot. But by the same token Stonestrike is able to be used against any target, not just evil ones, is superior against constructs and as noted above - is not based on Charisma.
What you end up with is a literal defensive rock that is a lot harder to kill than your average Paladin. Stonelord is a perfect example of a decent racial archetype that does something different from the class it is based on. And to counter the vernacular - it doesn't suck.
I personally really dig the spellbinder wizard. 9 spells you can basically spontaneously cast over a 17 level character, tasty.
If you want to build a tripper a human with racial heritage halfling and the underfoot adept monk seems like it could fit the role of not sucking. Fourth level and every four after it would increase the size of creature it could trip.
Wildcallers for half elves.
Most suck, a few are good.
Wild-Caller Summoner is very nice.
Scarred Witch Doctor is a witch that trades a magic item using buddy for Con-based everything, which is quite strong.
Forgehammer Cleric is at least as good as normal cleric. The Artifice domain (and no other domain) royally sucks, but the class features are incredible for anyone that wants to buff or craft items.
I don't really agree with any of the others mentioned in this thread, though, they're all at least a little subpar to the main class (and a lot of the classes in these cases are already the worst in the entire game - rogue and monk). Underfoot Adept is an outright trap and heinously bad.
I've wondered why there hasn't been a Constitution-based sorcerer archetype. Their magic is in the blood.
Well, fiend flayer seems interesting, and really, any tiefling magus should be one. Nothing gets traded out. It just gives you the option to trade CON damage for arcane points (which is a harsh enough of a trade by itself). The rest of it is made up of optional arcana you can choose. No reason not to be one really. Free options (even terrible ones) are nice, as long as they do not remove others.
Shadowcaller summoner is more of a horizontal slide. You trade out some of your summon monster options for various shadows (about an even trade for incorporeal, strength draining cronies). Plus it has one of the best bits of flavor text in the game: your eidolon is your shadow, and instead of a rune on your foreheads, you both just go without shadows. Just about as easily identifiable, but it creates great images.
I about lost my mind over the bonded witch archetype. Much agreement there.
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Stonelord is very good. It just isn't anything like a traditional Paladin. The biggest loss is spells, but defensive stance and powers almost make up for them. Natural Armor, DR, and Crit immunity combined with swift action self heals from lay on hands makes for one of the most unkillable characters you can make.
Underfoot Adept is an outright trap and heinously bad.
My Halfling Monk/Druid shapeshifted into a huge air elemental who is in the process of tripping the Tarrasque begs to differ with you.
prototype00
The question is in the title, are all racial archetypes sub optimal or am I missing something?
Them scarred witch doctors are pretty badass. SADest class ever.
Underfoot Adept is an outright trap and heinously bad.My Halfling Monk/Druid shapeshifted into a huge air elemental who is in the process of tripping the Tarrasque begs to differ with you.
prototype00
Sounds like druid is doing most of the work, there. Nice that you found a dip use for it, though.
I guess by the same logic Wild Rager Barbarian isn't a trap, because it happens to be a great 1-2 level dip. (By only dipping, the will save is so low you have near total control over when you "lose control" and for how long, so you just reap a bunch of extra rage rounds per day)
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Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle is another good one.
Another mention... the Aasimar Oracle archetype Purifier is without a doubt godawful laughably horrible. HOWEVER! Check out the final class feature it gains:
Celestial Master (Su)
At 13th level, a purifier may use her sacred scourge to compel good outsiders to serve her, as if using the Command Undead feat against undead.
It's an archetype to let a big bad evil guy force celestials to do his bidding against their will! That's awesome!
My actual thought process upon seeing that feature:
2. *Scrolls back up*
The purifier seeks out signs of possession or mind control that manifest from unwilling (and often unwitting) servants for fiendish corruptors and their mortal minions. A purifier seeks liberation of mind, body, and spirit from the bondage of sin and the taint of the unholy.
Yeah...that seems completely counter to everything this archetype stands for, compelling celestials to do your bidding...
3. What good character would ever want to do that? It's just so blatantly abominable.
4. ...Wait a second... Where in the archetype did it actually say you had to be good aligned?
5. NOWHERE! That's where! Wow, I thought this was just a lame, mechanically weak option that simultaneously is an affront to its own fluff. But now I know its true purpose!
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This is just wrong. An archetype is different, not bad. Your logic is very flawed.All Archetypes are intended to be somewhat sub-optimal.
Otherwise they would overshadow that core.
Some are more sub optimal than others
His logic isn't. Its the logic of the game.. A lot of the Archetypes are specifically built to be worse than what they give up.
Spellslinger/Bomber/Siege mage - all three of these fall under that category. Cause you lose all the benefits of having a school, double the penalties. Then what stuff you did have gets traded out.
I dunno about alllll archetypes being bad, because I found the Gray Disciple Monk to be a pretty potent archetype for the monk class, I mean come on! Enlarge Person as a swift action for one ki point at level six? AND I can use my new size to attack anyone with a FOB attack from 10 feet away? AND I can turn Invisible (as per the spell) as a swift action at level four? Maybe I'm just overenthusiastic about it, but becoming invisible or becoming one size larger as a swift action is pretty powerful to me.
His logic isn't. Its the logic of the game.. A lot of the Archetypes are specifically built to be worse than what they give up.
Spellslinger/Bomber/Siege mage - all three of these fall under that category. Cause you lose all the benefits of having a school, double the penalties. Then what stuff you did have gets traded out.
"A lot" =/= all. There are some archtypes many people find straight up better than the base class (Zen Archer, Invulnerable Rager), some that are better for what people are trying to do with their characters (many of the fighter archtypes, Stonelord, Urban Barbarian), and some that simply change some flavor without changing core mechanics (sorcerer wildblooded bloodlines). Simply stating that all archtypes are meant to be weaker than the base class is both wrong conceptually, and wrong empirically.
I have to second Spell Dancer for Magus. Although the loss of buffing your own weapon is painful at lower levels, once you get a decently-enchanted weapon the sting goes away.
The ability to free Dimension Door multiple times a day just begs to be coupled with the Dimensional Agility feat chain so that you eventually are flanking against yourself against multiple enemies a round.
The only thing that could make it better is if there were a higher level "multiple charge" spell, like a buffed Frostbite or Chill Touch.
Magus can already spell combat with Bladed Dash and Force Hook Charge. He doesn't need the dimensional agility feat tree.
Magus can already spell combat with Bladed Dash and Force Hook Charge. He doesn't need the dimensional agility feat tree.
Bladed Dash has a limitation of 30 feet of movement in a straight line; it's arguable whether it functions similarly to a charge, and therefore can't be used if you've got rough terrain or obstacles in your path.
Force Hook Charge has a somewhat longer range but also can provoke attacks of opportunity; it also implies that you need a clear, straight path to the target.
They have their uses, but they are nowhere near as flexible as the Dimensional Agility tree, which can grant you the ability to flank against yourself, travel a long distance without provoking and ignoring terrain and obstacles, and attack multiple targets on the battlefield regardless of their position.
Coupled with an archetype that lets you Dimension Door once per combat for free anyway, it is far more flexible for a Magus looking at control of the battlefield through maneuverability.
*shrugs* Then again, I don't like the heavily-armored base concept of the Magus and other people do, so YMMV.
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Racial archetypes are really there to give more options and more flavor to people who actually like some kind of cool background or story to tell which doesn't involve every aspect of the min/max of this game.