Sure, they've been popular since ancient times, what with people going into mazes and all and killing them. But why are they offered as player races in so many settings from Krynn to Midgard? I mean, they're just angry man-bulls. Sure, I've read the game stats, but I still don't get it. I guess it's because I'm not a fan of furry races. But still.
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Lol, not a fan of furry. Ha ha.
When I've run a lot of underground settings, I've brought the minotaurs in more. I play them somewhat of an orc/klingon type like people, large, dangerous, cunning to fight underground, not absolute fools (int can be close to 10, wisdom can be above 10). In my last game, they had spewed out on to the surface, and set themselves up as chieftains and warbands above ground. The humans were not happy, but the minotaurs were in an alliance with other monster peoples. Yes, it was a great awakening of demihumans.
There is a lot that can be done with them, but given how nasty they are, their presence may discourage low level adventurers, since they are so gnarly. My players in a sandbox did not choose to take the minotaur missions. They didn't want to fight minotaurs in the badlands.
I even threw in their standard of measurement into a game, the Gershetek. Which is a point of average distance the standard minotaur can reach moving at a good pace (no much can stop determined minotaur packs underground). It was about two hours of travel. The players took to using it actually. :D
Sure, they've been popular since ancient times, what with people going into mazes and all and killing them. But why are they offered as player races in so many settings from Krynn to Midgard? I mean, they're just angry man-bulls. Sure, I've read the game stats, but I still don't get it. I guess it's because I'm not a fan of furry races. But still.
I honestly don't understand what the point of this thread is supposed to be.
Some people just like having options that aren't variant human x, y, and z.
I made ECL 6 version for a 3,5/PF mash campaign of orcs, goblinoids and stuff. Reduced HD to 4, Str reduced to +6, Int increasd to -2, and they had fluff as worlds (well Faerun's) greatest trap/maze/dungeon builders (they were allied with kobolds though), besides being brutes.
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Am I the only one who heard this thread title in Jerry Seinfeld's voice? :D
I actually kind of like the Dragonlance version of Minotaurs, and they're one of the inspirations for the Minotaurs of my campaign setting Mystralas.
Then again, I made a "cousin" race for them called the Holstaur (though the idea isn't completely original) which are more human than bovine and less evil.
I've portrayed Hobgoblins like Klingons since 1e, and can't seem to break the habit. Hell, I even describe them as looking like such. As for the term "furry", I used it as a joke, but also to describe the animal like races in general.
Eben The Quiet got the joke!
You should take a look at the Midgard Minotaurs. They are a pretty civilized bunch. Like in dragonlance they are a nautical people and a martial people but they have an interesting history and serve as a counterbalance to the powerful and expansive Dragon Empire.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them, I just don't understand how they became so popular as a player race choice. I've seen the Midgard ones, and they are pretty cool.
To me, that still doesn't seem to warrant a thread.
I'm also not running around questioning why dwarves are popular enough to be a core player race in most fantasy RPGs and a playable faction in most fantasy strategy games, just because I personally can't see the appeal in them.
Thank you, Threeshades, for you valuable input.
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A good labyrinth adventure is always something to talk about. I've both DM'd and played in such scenarios, particularly back in the 80s when I first got into the hobby. I bet I used a forest's worth of graph paper on both sides of the DM screen in those days.
The same thing that's up with airline food.
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What's the deal with elves? I get they've been really popular since the old days, but they're just human with pointy ears that like living in the woods. Minotaurs, at least, have a much more different anatomy.
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What's the deal with elves? I get they've been really popular since the old days, but they're just human with pointy ears that like living in the woods. Minotaurs, at least, have a much more different anatomy.
You say this in jest, but this is pretty much my reasoning for losing interest in the so-called "core" races and having a large variety of unusual, fantastical races available in my homebrew setting. They're all basically humanoid in shape to a lesser or greater degree, mostly because things without basic humanoid shape make comprehending adventuring difficult, but they're more unusual than just humans with pointy ears, tusks, or varying average heights and builds.
I enjoy what a lot of people refer to as "freak show" games and am actually quite happy that my current game, thanks to reincarnate shenanigans, no longer has any core races in the party.
That's the main reason, to answer the OP in more detail, that I like weird races - they feel more fantasy to me than "human with a slightly different physical trait or two".
I posted them here, though a few of those are in need of minor tweaks (the Aranea and Arachne should have 40 ft speed/30 ft climb and a +16 bonus to CMD against trip attempts in spider and hybrid forms, and the Naga should be immune to trips due to not having legs; little things like that).
What's the deal with elves? I get they've been really popular since the old days, but they're just human with pointy ears that like living in the woods. Minotaurs, at least, have a much more different anatomy.You say this in jest, but this is pretty much my reasoning for losing interest in the so-called "core" races and having a large variety of unusual, fantastical races available in my homebrew setting. They're all basically humanoid in shape to a lesser or greater degree, mostly because things without basic humanoid shape make comprehending adventuring difficult, but they're more unusual than just humans with pointy ears, tusks, or varying average heights and builds.
I enjoy what a lot of people refer to as "freak show" games and am actually quite happy that my current game, thanks to reincarnate shenanigans, no longer has any core races in the party.
That's the main reason, to answer the OP in more detail, that I like weird races - they feel more fantasy to me than "human with a slightly different physical trait or two".
I can respect that. Personally I love the aesthetic and general concept of elves, but for my games I tried to take them a step further away from the "off-shoot human" type (same goes for my dwarves).
I'm cool with anything as long as there's a legitimate justification for its existence. Since the PCs are supposed to be special, almost any justification will do. In books and films I require a bit more sanity, but that's a whole other monster.
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I like them for the jokes, which can be udderly amusing. No bull!
But I would steer clear of calling a minotaur cowvalier "Sir Loin". They might look pasture human faults, but most minotaurs will get mad (cow) if they field like you are insulting them. They will have a beef with you till the day you die. It is farm more safe to moove away and hoof these jokes in a place where you can't be herd by the minotaur. As humans, most minotaus can taurus limb from limb. You better bellieve it! I'd steak my reputation on it. But hay, who am I to offer advice? I tend to cattle, er, prattle on.
...Ok, that last one was a stretch. I think I've milked about every pun I could out of this.
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I dunno. I could horn in with one or two.
And this, kids, is how a thread gets derailed. We calf to, er, have to stay on track.
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Sure, they've been popular since ancient times, what with people going into mazes and all and killing them. But why are they offered as player races in so many settings from Krynn to Midgard? I mean, they're just angry man-bulls. Sure, I've read the game stats, but I still don't get it. I guess it's because I'm not a fan of furry races. But still.
I have asked this question so many times since encountering my first Krynn minotaur in the mid-80s. I wish that I could say that in the almost thirty years since I've come up with an answer, but...unfortunately, I just can't get my brain around the concept of playing a monster.
Iconic demi-humans? No problem.
Would I refuse to let someone play one in my game? No. I've had players running half-dragons, tieflings, vampires, and...yes, even a minotaur. But I never really "got" what made those characters fulfilling for their players.
Once it goes beyond demi-humans, though, I just lose interest.
The closest I've come to understanding is when I say, "I like having the option to use flintlocks in my Ravenloft campaign." And people just shutdown at the word flintlock. And when you try to reason, you see that they've just glazed over, and there's no comprehension that you're still speaking.
That's sort of how I feel when someone says to me, "I want to play a minotaur..."
There's something about it that just doesn't mesh with my view of fantasy.
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One of the primary, er, roles that roleplaying serves is a wish-fulfillment outlet. Generally your fantasy setting is the world you wish you could live in at least some of the time, or the world you would make if you were a god. That ideal world for some is without guns, or where a sword is not trumped by a gun.
From a player standpoint, it may be a matter of how far away from reality you can get and still associate the character with yourself. Playing a minotaur is pretty dang far removed from reality, which is good for the people that WANT to be as drastically different from themselves as they can get, but for other people that want it to be different, but not too different, it's bad.
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And then there's people like my friend Myles, who specifically want to do things that they can't do in other games (particularly video games), and always go for things like minotaurs and awakened oozes.
There are always some things that just don't click with some people.
While I'd leap at the chance to play a minotaur I can't really see myself ever playing a gnome.
Guns, likewise, are just something that will never see themselves in my characters hands. (or campaigns, if I was DM'ing)
Some ideas just strike a spark in the imagination of an individual and others don't.
Why? I dunno.
Just the way it is. :)
-S
Am I the only one who heard this thread title in Jerry Seinfeld's voice? :D
"What is up with Air Plane food? It is like I'm eating nothing at all!"
I have always found myself attracted to races that are more "fantastical." Animal people are an easy way to do so. If you do not like your players having animal people, then give them fantastical options you approve of that can't be replicated with fake ears, a fake beards, or face paint.
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And then there's people like my friend Myles, who specifically want to do things that they can't do in other games (particularly video games), and always go for things like minotaurs and awakened oozes.
It gets old reeeealy fast. Especially for other players. I have a player who always plays a pun character. It was fun the first few times he did it. Now we all just groan and roll our eyes when he announces that he will play a goblin gunslinger called Tuco the ugly.
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Mimos-Tauro: Protoindoeuropean roots for Minotaur: Means 'to Mime-Bull'. You might try your Minotaur in a travelling fight club/pageant role.
Just want to makes sure that yellowdingo's obsessive miscommunication doesn't go too far.
There were several mythical kings of the Eastern Greek world called Minos.
The most famous was from Crete. He had such a huge influence on perceptions of Greek prehistory that scholars call a lengthy period of prehistoric Crete the Minoan Civilisation.
Minos is actually the Cretan word for King.
The Minoan culture had a festical/ritual/cult-activity (hard to tell as the first-hand evidence is drawn from pot-paintings) of bull-jumping and other bull-related cult activities which had a legacy and tradition which continued into the Archaic and later Greek periods (when Greeks began writing down their stories).
The most famous (in the Ancient world, when the word was coined, as well as now) event of King Minos' life was that he refused to slay a bull which was to be sacrificed to Poseidon, so the bull raped his wife, Pasiphae, and a child was born of that union.
This child was a man-bull and Minos later forced the Athenians, with Zeus' help, to send seven young men and seven young women to be sacrificed to the bull each year. The bull was kept in a labyrinth that was created by Daedalus and Icarus. Minos was so cruel that he locked away his genius labyrinth builder in the labyrinth. Famously, Daedalus and Icarus escaped by constructing wings from wax and fallen faethers. As they fled, Icarus was drawn to the sun, flew too high and was drowned when the sun melted the wax that held his feathers in place.
The oldest part of that story is the man-bull child of Minos bit.
Influenced by the Minos=king of Crete=Crete element the beast from these stories was called a Minos (King of Crete) + Tauros (bull). Literally a Cretan Bull or Minos' Bull.
So Minotaur and mummery have a spurious connection at best.
I can see how someone who doesn't know their Ancient Greek history and culture might imagine that the minotaur myth grew out of performance with men dressed as bulls and therefore make a tenuous proto-Indo-European link.
However, once you understand the strong connection between Crete and cult/display/festival/some-kind-of-important activity with real bulls then it becomes clear that minotaurs are Cretan Bulls.
yellowdingo likes to bring up proto-Indo-European regularly as if it were a real language. He never seems to bother explaining about this fairly obscure field of study when he does so.
Proto-Indo-European is a theoretical language which most scholars admit probably never existed as a single defined language entity. It is formed through backward construction of linked words in different diverse ancient languages across Southern Europe, the Middle-East and into India.
It is a useful tool for exploring cultural links, ancient communication and building theoretical models of migration and cultural links.
It is sometimes a useful tool for examining the origin of words, but this is not the primary purpose and it should be used carefully to do so. Using proto-Indo-European to find word meanings is, inevtiably, built on a basis of speculation and assumption.
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TL;DR? Minoatur is a word linked with Crete (Minos' Kingdom) and Bulls (Tauros). Yellowdingo is pushing proto-Indo-European too far.
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Minos is actually the Cretan word for King.
I've always heard 'minotaur' pronounced 'min - oh - tore' or 'min - oh - tower.' If Minos' name was pronounced 'mee - nohs' or 'my - nohs,' I wonder if it should be 'mee - noh - tore' or 'my - noh - tore?'
Also 'Cretan.' Heh. "Like the Cretins at Sparta!" "Sorry, I meant the Spartans at Crete!"
From a player standpoint, it may be a matter of how far away from reality you can get and still associate the character with yourself. Playing a minotaur is pretty dang far removed from reality, which is good for the people that WANT to be as drastically different from themselves as they can get, but for other people that want it to be different, but not too different, it's bad.
And then there's people like my friend Myles, who specifically want to do things that they can't do in other games (particularly video games), and always go for things like minotaurs and awakened oozes.
Yep, that's me. Though I typically manage to be satisfied with just the weirder PC-level races and leave the foraying into playing full-on dragons or awakened plants or things like that to the realm of one-shots, if only to save the mechanical headache of trying to balance them. (Which I am trying to do with a PC in my Kingmaker game who got a really lucky reincarnate roll... still working on that.)
Thankfully I have fellow players who are either just as interested in that level of weirdness or accepting of it when they're not. I've not had problems with my group talking down to a weird character concept, so long as some attempt was made to fit in with the rest of the group on some level (similar alignment, similar goals, etc. - we have had problems with one player who seems to go out of his way to make characters that don't fit into the group, but it's always been a motive/mentality/etc. issue more than a "you're too weird" issue).
And then there's people like my friend Myles, who specifically want to do things that they can't do in other games (particularly video games), and always go for things like minotaurs and awakened oozes.It gets old reeeealy fast. Especially for other players. I have a player who always plays a pun character. It was fun the first few times he did it. Now we all just groan and roll our eyes when he announces that he will play a goblin gunslinger called Tuco the ugly.
I'll admit it's a bit more difficult to come up with things to accomodate the visions he has for his characters (his last character was a puppeteer bard that only animated objects), usually involving a significant amount of custom spell and item creation, but in a way I sort of enjoy it.
Pun characters would and do grate on my nerves, fortunately I don't have any of those types in my group. There are plenty of jokes to be had with player's named (duergar -> dirt guard, saying Gogo Ironback to the power ranger theme, etc.) but it's something new every time.
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For a trip, you might look up essays on Picasso's minotaur series. The images, while fine art, are NSFW. The body of scholarship surrounding it is, unsurprisingly, diverse.
- Picasso's Minotaur as the Everyman
- Picasso's Minotaur as a Comment on the Times
- ...etc.
In art, minotaurs can be seen on one hand as a discussion on the state of man and masculinity. That is, the raging brute contrasted with the intellect and potentially, caring, heart of the human being.
They can also, and have been seen as symbols similar to satyrs, only with more physical force behind them. They may be symbols of the perversion of war and its desires, and the dark and brutish result (no doubt a tie-in to the source of the original myth, as well as the combination of bull/human parts).
Regardless, they've a rich history in well, history, enough of one that I'd be hesitant to bring them /into/ a game without doing some research first, to be sure I was honoring those traditions.
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Minos is actually the Cretan word for King.
I've always heard 'minotaur' pronounced 'min - oh - tore' or 'min - oh - tower.' If Minos' name was pronounced 'mee - nohs' or 'my - nohs,' I wonder if it should be 'mee - noh - tore' or 'my - noh - tore?'
Also 'Cretan.' Heh. "Like the Cretins at Sparta!" "Sorry, I meant the Spartans at Crete!"
Well, here in the UK the name is pronounced 'my - nohs' and the creature is called a 'my - noh - tor'. SO it matches-up over here.
I have no idea about the Greek pronunciation though.
Also, sadly, over here it would be 'kree - tuns'. But Cretins is funnier :D
Even though in general I dislike antropomorphic races, Minotaurs are pretty cool in my book.
Not sure why, but perhaps the fact Dragonlance was my gateway drug into roleplaying games had to do with it. I've always loved that depiction of Minotaurs.
Also, I played a Tauren Warrior in WoW for like 6 years. He did the banana dance. So that also makes Minotaurs cool.
As for the name Minotaur, it comes from the place it was, the Palace of Minos in Crete (Minos being the mythological king of the island). So it means The Bull of Minos, rather than the King Bull.
I always liked Minotaurs because I was into mythology as a kid.
Come to think of it, I really enjoyed "animal-people" before the internet came into my life...
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I wouldn't prevent a player from choosing Minotaur as his race, it's just that I'm not personally a fan of the anthropomorphic races. Having said that, I do allow one such race in my homebrew, and that's the jackal-headed gnoll types called "Anpur" from Green Ronin's Hamunaptra setting. This is because a large part of my role-playing history revolved around a pseudo-ancient Egyptian setting and pantheon. As such, it's flavored every homebrew I've ever created.
So, having said all that, if a player wanted to play a Minotaur or Gnoll or Catfolk, I'd have to have them give me a really good reason why they want to, where it might have come from, and what it's motivations are. But I wouldn't prohibit them from doing so.
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It's a fantasy game. Some people, like me, are bored with Tolkien-esque elves, dwarves, and halflings and want to play something different.
Another reason is that playing iconoclast monsters are cool. You saw Shrek, right?