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Most of the links for this are fairly old, and when I reviewed the guides I didnt really see anything specifically addressing this sort of thing.
I am interested in playing a melee, possibly with dips if it makes sense, that uses a reach weapon to help control the flow of combat and enemy movement. What I could really use (besides the obvious builds if someone knows a good one) is some advice on making a build. Should there be a focus on trip, pushing enemies around the battlefield, whirlwind attack or something else? Mostly I would like some feedback on keeping him useful and relevant up to say level 14 at least.
Items, feats, tactics, etc would be greatly appreciated.
Are you allowed third party stuff?
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Nope, just Paizo material, and even that is only the post 3.5 stuff. We used to before we added a player who pulled out all sorts of weird broken stuff that we used to have to sift through. After a while, the three GMs in the group decided it was easier to stay core, at least for character mechanics. We use 3pp stuff for magic items, spells, and GM material however.
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Crosswind, thank you for the builds.
Is trip viable at higher levels or is it diminishing returns? Basically I am most concerned about being able to still do some controlling in the upper levels. Am I better off trying to do a combat maneuver based build or something like whirlwind or great cleave with dazing assault? I have no experience with playing a fighter that high, and the other players in our game tend to play either ranged or "Hulk Smash" type of melees. I seem to recall most CMDs get fairly ridiculous in the higher levels.
Any thoughts about which one stays most effective into the higher levels, say between 10-14? We don't usually go past 14 since we primarily play APs or AP based campaigns.
Came here to suggest a very similar build to Crosswind's foehammer build. Note that you can also do something closer to a traditional polearm build (like the second build Crosswind suggested) using the foehammer and the dwarven longhammer, which is both a hammer and a reach weapon with solid 2d6/x3 damage.
Being a dwarf also grants you proficiency with the dwarven boulder helm which affords another +2 bonus to bull rush, but leaves you staggered for a round. It's always seemed like a terrible trade-off to me, but at least its an option? Figured it was worth mentioning.
I really like battlefield control builds: they give you a lot of options to choose from each time your turn comes up, and that makes for exciting combat. Good luck!
Whips are very handy for battlefield control. You cover a wide area (fifteen foot) and can use improved/greater trip to great effect. If you take the Whip Mastery feat chain to its end-point you'll be able to do some pretty wicked tricks; grapple the spellcaster, trip hoards on an AOO, and go Indiana Jones on people.
I advocate for racial proficiency wherever possible. Half-Orc can do it easily.
You will probably already get Combat Expertise for the improved feats so it won't be as much of a tax if you're looking for Whirlwind Attack. You could also do a Whirlwind Attack greater trip which your non-ranged attack allies would love you for.
Half-Orc Fighter (With Whips as racial martial weapons, Weapon master or mobile fighter as a probable archetype)
1. Weapon Focus (Whip), Combat Expertise
2. Whip Mastery
3. Improved Trip
4. Dodge
5. Whip Mastery, Improved
6. Greater Trip
7. Combat Reflexes
8. Spring Attack
9. Whirlwind Attack (With a fifteen foot reach baby!)
Alternatively you could cleave to get your spare attacks but I'm not entirely certain you can cleave with combat maneuvers.
Season with Weapon Finesse, Specialization, and Power Attack to taste.
Your trips will provoke AOOs within ten feet.
Greatly depends on the type of campaign. Eventually you'll be fighting monsters you don't have the option to do manuevers on, but it can be very viable against humanoids.
Otherwise, it's Dazing Assault or bust.
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Personally, I think Cleave is a terrible feat chain.
I might suggest something a little wackier...
Whip It Good!
or...
Killing people is for sissies who like number spooge
Whips are an AMAZING control weapon that require a lot of Feat investment to get off the ground. They have a 15' reach, disarm and trip as special qualities and can be used with weapon finesse. They do not threaten any square within their range until Improved Whip Mastery which allows them to threaten within your natural reach +5'.
Here's the Whip Mastery Chain.
You'll notice you get a lot of fringe benefits as you invest upwards on that, most of which use your CMB. I would suggest looking at a few levels of Monk and the archetypes Flowing and Sacred Mountain. The advantages are very powerful for a control build. Maneuver Master earns honorable mention but a lot of what this build does is reactive.
The Freehand Fighter Archetype provides a lot of bonuses to Trip and Disarm as long as you only use one whip and keep your other hand free.
I suggest Fighter/Monk with a high Dexterity, using Archetypes Flowing Monk and Freehand Fighter. You won't do much damage. Probably ever. You will drive the GMs nuts, infuriate your opponents, help your team mates, and surprise everyone.
It is important to point out that while you're getting your feat chains built up for the real insanity you might want to keep a secondary weapon available.
Design rambling aside, you can result in a character that threatens 10'(15 when enlarged) can attack up to 15'(20 when enlarged) and has the option to Trip, Disarm, and Grapple on attacks. Then you can do all of this as AoO, cause fear checks to provide penalties to your opponents, and make AoO when they try to get the hell away from the human mire that is the Whip Master. In short, you may not kill the BBEG, but you'll make him and every one of his minions regret meeting you on the field of battle.
I've starred the feats I think are top, but you can combine the suggestions below and incorporate others to tweak it out for your preference, such as the two weapon fighting chain for an absurd number of CMB checks each round.
*Exotic Weapon(Whip)
*Weapon Focus(Whip)
*Weapon Finesse(Whip)
*Whip Mastery
*Improved Whip Mastery
*Combat Reflexes
Serpent Lash
*Agile Maneuvers
*Tactical Reposition
Improved Reposition
*Quick Reposition
*Enforcer
Greater Reposition
*Improved Trip
*Improved Disarm
Greater Trip
Greater Disarm
*Pin Down
*Vicious Stomp
Dodge
Mobility
Combat Patrol
Snake Style Feats
Snapping Turtle Style Feats
Edit: Of course, while I'm collating the feat collection, someone else has already posted a similar idea. Great minds and all that...
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Cleave (Combat)
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
As you can see it takes two feats (including the pre-req) to get Cleave. It requires a standard action to use, the opponents must be adjacent (usually they are trying to flank you and not adjacent) and you take a -2 AC.
Great Cleave allows you to keep that up as long as each foe is next to the one before it and not the target of a previous Cleave. Not what I consider bang for the buck.
Pin down, combat reflexes, stand still, step up
Be a very sticky 15ft by 15ft square. 30ft by 30ft if someone makes you large.
You can retrain Cleave if you have to. Power Attack as a prereq isn't bad and you'll almost certainly take it at some point. A nice facsimile of Great Cleave can be purchased in the form of a Mighty Cleaving weapon and sold at a later date. When you can cleave to the person behind or in front of the initial attack, it doesn't look so bad. They still need to be adjacent, so if you're good enough at combat maneuvers you may find the true feats worth while. Otherwise, make sure you take 'em at appropriate retraining levels.
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Most of the links for this are fairly old, and when I reviewed the guides I didnt really see anything specifically addressing this sort of thing.
I am interested in playing a melee, possibly with dips if it makes sense, that uses a reach weapon to help control the flow of combat and enemy movement. What I could really use (besides the obvious builds if someone knows a good one) is some advice on making a build. Should there be a focus on trip, pushing enemies around the battlefield, whirlwind attack or something else? Mostly I would like some feedback on keeping him useful and relevant up to say level 14 at least.
Items, feats, tactics, etc would be greatly appreciated.
Personally I find most combat manuevers woefully over-rated. So many creatures are immune/resistant that the benefits they provide are only really effective under ideal conditions. This is my reccomendation for a battle-field control Fighter, keeping in mind that death is the best control.
Human Fighter (Weapon Master)
Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 15 (+2 racial bonus, +1 @ 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th)
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 13
WIS - 12
CHA - 8
Traits:
Defender of the Society
Freed Slave
Feats:
1st - Power Attack
1st - Cleave
1st - Dodge
2nd - Mobility
3rd - Combat Expertise
4th - Spring Attack [Retrain Cleave to Whirlwind Attack]
5th - Combat Reflexes
6th - Lunge
7th - Weapon Focus: Falchion
8th - Greater Weapon Focus: Falchion
9th - Improved Critical: Falchion
10th - Critical Focus
11th - Dazing Assault
12th - Sickening Critical
13th - Staggering Critical
14th - Critical Mastery
15th - Weapon Specialization: Falchion
16th - Greater Weapon Specialization: Falchion
17th - Stunning Critical
18th - ???
19th - ???
20th - ???
My reccomendation is to focus on a Bardiche to take advantage of its Reach ability. Failing that, I suggest a Falchion.
With this build you get Whirlwind Attack at 4th level, before anyone else gets their first iterative. At 6th level you get a Lunging Whirlwind Attack. At 11th you get a Dazing Lunging Whirlwind Attack - and if you keep in mind the 5' step that you can take during a full attack action, you're basically a Dazing Fireball every round.
As you advance further, you gain the ability to stack critical effects and Weapon Master makes those crits really hurt.
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I disagree with your assessment on Combat Maneuver's Wiggz, but your reach weapon master build is a solid option. Relying on Whirlwind Attack is a little short though.
Whirlwind Attack (Combat)
You can strike out at every foe within reach.Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
It specifically prohibits any combination of Whirlwind attack with bonuses from (not quite) any other source. This neuters a lot of what you built up for in your feat progression.
The focus on using a Two Handed reach weapon with Lunge is an excellent core, in my opinion. You do great damage and have a lot of opportunities to maximize on things like Combat Reflexes. 15' reach with a d10+(1.5*Str) weapon is truly great, and with enlarge it becomes 20' with 2d6+(1.5*Str). That's the third story of a building, or the other side of a bridge. I'd suggest picking up Improved Unarmed Strike so you can kick anyone in the square next to you.
Was just reading my copy of Rival Guide the other day and remembered it. It had two feats that I thought were pretty good for a whip user.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, proficient in whip.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a disarm or trip maneuver with your whip. If it succeeds, you can make an additional disarm or trip maneuver with the same bonus against a target adjacent to the first and also within your whip’s reach.
In addition, you can use your whip to perform reposition maneuvers, though you take a –4 penalty on your CMB and you may only move the target toward you from its original position.
Prerequisites: Serpent Lash, base attack bonus +4.Benefit: When you make a successful disarm or trip maneuver using the Serpent Lash feat, you can make your additional disarm or trip attempt against any target within your whip’s reach. With a reposition maneuver, you can move the target creature to any point within your whip’s reach.
I disagree with your assessment on Combat Maneuver's Wiggz, but your reach weapon master build is a solid option. Relying on Whirlwind Attack is a little short though.
Whirlwind Attack (Combat)
You can strike out at every foe within reach.Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
It specifically prohibits any combination of Whirlwind attack with bonuses from (not quite) any other source. This neuters a lot of what you built up for in your feat progression.
The focus on using a Two Handed reach weapon with Lunge is an excellent core, in my opinion. You do great damage and have a lot of opportunities to maximize on things like Combat Reflexes. 15' reach with a d10+(1.5*Str) weapon is truly great, and with enlarge it becomes 20' with 2d6+(1.5*Str). That's the third story of a building, or the other side of a bridge. I'd suggest picking up Improved Unarmed Strike so you can kick anyone in the square next to you.
First of all, I'm not sure what you mean by losing bonuses from other sources - do you mean bonus attacks or are you referring to static bonuses to attack and damage? You wouldn't get a bonus attack from, say, a spell like Haste or a feat like Two-Weapon Fighting, but nothing in my build addresses any of that. Its designed to do one of two things - to attack everyone in range with a single Dazing Assault or to repeatedly attack a single target, forcing him to save every time you hit. Infinitely better, incidentally, than trips or sunders.
Your 'highest base attack bonus' doesn't limit you to just your BAB, it means your normal attack bonus when using your highest BAB, which means your best attack bonus period. That's good too, especially if you are planning on using both Dazing Assault AND Power Attack.
Secondly, with the 5' step you get during your attack action, you can move so that people who were once adjacent and free from your reach attack are now in the line of fire. No need to pick up IUS.
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@Wiggz As I read the rules, it states Bonus or Extra attacks from Spells, Abilities and Feats. So your class bonuses and features do not apply when using Whirlwind Attack. This is a pretty big hit for a Weapon Master. Applying Dazing Assault (which I love) to this is a grey area as it is not a numerical bonus but does apply a bonus effect to your attack. The debate on this probably warrants its own thread.
The rest of what you do with your build is great as far I'm concerned. I'm a big fan of the Reach Weapon Fighter.
- Edit: As for Improved Unarmed Strike, that is simply to shore up your gap in the threat range. You can shore that gap up in a lot of ways, not just the particular feat I mentioned. Personally, I hate gaps in my threatened area.
@Wiggz As I read the rules, it states Bonus or Extra attacks from Spells, Abilities and Feats. So your class bonuses and features do not apply when using Whirlwind Attack. This is a pretty big hit for a Weapon Master. Applying Dazing Assault (which I love) to this is a grey area as it is not a numerical bonus but does apply a bonus effect to your attack. The debate on this probably warrants its own thread.
Sorry, my friend, but that's completely wrong. Good news though - your Reach Weapon Fighter just got better!
Read it like this, to avoid any confusion: 'Bonus (attacks) or Extra attacks from Spells, Abilities and Feats'. the prohibition applies only to additional attacks on top of what Whirlwind Attack gives you and in no way applies to damage or to attack bonuses regardless of their source.
Its designed to keep you from stacking additional attacks with feats like Cleave/Great Cleave or spells like Haste. Again, it has absolutely nothing to do with attack or damage bonuses.
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Hmm, wretched English language... So where I see any Bonus(full stop) or Extra Attacks(separate category) you suggest means any additional attacks from another source...
Well I can run with that. Whirlwind Attack was pretty gimp otherwise...
Edit: I still prefer the Whip Master of Ultimate Frustration for a control build. The Reach Weapon Fighter is just a different DPS fighter.
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Hmm, wretched English language... So where I see any Bonus(full stop) or Extra Attacks(separate category) you suggest means any additional attacks from another source...
Well I can run with that. Whirlwind Attack was pretty gimp otherwise...
Edit: I still prefer the Whip Master of Ultimate Frustration for a control build. The Reach Weapon Fighter is just a different DPS fighter.
Correct. Otherwise it would say bonusES and specify which bonuses in particular.
How does the Whip Master do against Oozes, Plants, Dragons, anything bigger than Huge or with more than four legs, Flying creatures, Swimming creatures, Incorpreal creatures and so on? It's been my experience that people who focus on trip builds expect to face a very narrow range of threats.
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Whips can make wrap or grab attacks on appropriate creatures. You still do damage and can enchant with Agile and energy damage sources or get items like Deliquescent Gloves to provide effects. These kinds of items you would have to buy anyway as a fighter. Your damage output essentially remains the same (poor), leaving the real killing up to damage specialists.
You don't become useless during the encounters, just incapable of applying status effects. This is why whip mastery out-performs a more typical grapple or trip build.
Also, since you can apply a variety of effects you can affect a greater variety of creatures. Too many legs to trip? Grapple. Too big to grapple? Enforcer, disarm, trip. It's the options that give you the consistent performance.
Truthfully, if you want supreme battlefield control then play a wizard. As far as I have seen, Whip Mastery is the best a fighter type can manage, and it's not cheap to get there.
If you want to do damage and splash out into some bonus control then focus on reach weapons and throw in an odd reactive or control feat. A lot of fighters go this route because, well...number spooge looks really good on someone else's face.
Edit: While I recommend against it, you can improve your damage significantly by focusing on Strength over Dex. Like many other situations, the dice damage is not as important as the bonus applied.
Edit: While I recommend against it, you can improve your damage significantly by focusing on Strength over Dex. Like many other situations, the dice damage is not as important as the bonus applied.
Putting aside the fact that a higher Dexterity gives me a better chance of acting first, allows me to get more use out of Combat Reflexes with a reach weapon, helps my survivability on a character who suffers from both shieldless AC and poor Reflex saves - a 13 Dexterity is required for Whirlwind Attack among other things and its a no-brainer to take that one extra point bump to 14. A 17 Strength to start, 18 by 4th level is just fine, better than fine for a build that has minimum pre-req's in both Intelligence and Dexterity as well.
As for the other stuff, we'll just have to agree to disagree I suppose. In my opinion being able to Daze an entire battlefield every round is more potent than attempting to grapple or trip 1 or 2 opponents (if its even possible, depending on creature type)... and as I said, death is pretty much the best condition you can inflict.
Finally, as we play in a low magic environment, I absolutely never include magic items as integral parts of my build nor do I build characters that are inherently dependant on them.
EDIT: By the way, I get the impression that English is not your primary language - I would kill to be as fluent in any language as you appear to be in English, which is admittedly one of the trickiest out there.
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In case it influences choices any, we are a party of 9 PCs, which means we rarely have 1 single BBEG. Usually, there are at least 1-3 BBEGs and either 3-4 mid levels or a bunch of lower level mooks. Throw in some flying or swarm type situations from time to time for variety. In short, we usually fight at least 5-7 serious opponents during a major fight that is not big dragon/big demon type fights. This was my motivation for making this build of fighter, even being able to tie up 2-3 of these as a melee can be a game changer.
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I was referring to the Whip build, not the fighter build you posted. Your stat choices were pretty straightforward.
The action economy is a good point. Combat Maneuvers suffer a lot of issues with action economy and I suggest feats like Quick Reposition to help overcome it. Flowing Monk provides some passive action economy, providing free interrupts to anyone who attacks an ally that is threatened by the whip master at level 3. Maneuver Master provides bonus maneuvers every turn but you have to invest in several levels for it pay off.
However, since you're primary whip effects, disarm and trip, are combat maneuvers that replace a melee attack, you do exactly as many as you have attacks. So in reality I'm tripping and disarming up to 4 people on my action, 7 if TWF is employed. This number is increased for whomever triggers an attack of opportunity or the monk's interrupt.
The way I see it, if you're playing a character to do battlefield control, you already have someone who's applying the Dead condition and they just need help controlling the flow of action. That's what battlefield control is really all about. There are several monsters which resist slashing damage, or reduce physical damage. The same penalties which a whip master has to overcome every other fighter does, too.
The tradeoff is in options during combat vs damage output. It will always be easier to do damage than not to do damage. The system is literally built that way. So while I respect the reach weapon fighter a lot, I do not see it as a superior control build. It is, however, a superior damage one.
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@redcelt32 Right, back on topic. Well you have two excellent paths before you: Reach Weapon Fighter or Whip Master.
There are distinct and separate advantages to each path as I see it.
RWF gives you better damage and Wiggz build focuses on maximizing opportunities with your reach.
WM provides superior control and can hit a lot of opponents in a way they are weak.
Both builds are not concerned much with damage resistance because RWF does enough to go through it and WM doesn't need to do damage to impede the opponent's ability to fight.
Both provide fringe benefits which pad out straightforward attack routines.
If your party is full up with folks who can kill it, then playing a RWF just puts you among their ranks. Not a bad place to be. Playing a WM sets you apart from most other characters but can be frustrating or feel underwhelming if you cannot bring your special attacks into play.
Your effectiveness starts sooner with a RWF and stays strong the entire way, a WM needs more levels before it can properly do its job.
Also, if you choose to go with WM you will need to read up on a lot of rules because I am certain your GM and fellow players will not be as familiar with combat maneuvers as you'll need to be. I am not as familiar with combat maneuvers as I need to be.
Alternately you could play a Summoner for battlefield control, or a Wizard, or even a Druid (who is often unloved but gets some amazing control options.)
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@ErrantPursuit & Wiggz,
Thanks so much for your builds and your advice! Our party tends to sort of put blinders on and create characters they think are cool, with only two of us having an eye towards how to help party cohesion (me and one other guy). He usually plays the wizard and I usually play a cleric and we end up being most of the battlefield control for our group. This time someone is planning to play a traditional heal and buff cleric, so I thought I would try playing a reach fighter that clogs up a section of the battlefield. Combined with the BC wizard, I think we will do okay.
Usually it is our martial classes that are disorganized and all over the place, which makes battlefield control and buffing a headache. I am hoping by playing this sort of fighter, it may serve as an example of sorts, if not for now, then maybe for later games.
I am leaning towards taking the reach polearm fighter now, since I think I am going to save the whip fighter for the upcoming Osirion campaign. One of our group has been wanting to run an Osirion game for a long time and with the AP after Worldwound being Osirion, whip fighter/tomb raider/indiana jones type seems like a good build for that one. Maybe throw in some archaeologist bard for a few levels as well :)
@ErrantPursuit & Wiggz,
Thanks so much for your builds and your advice! Our party tends to sort of put blinders on and create characters they think are cool, with only two of us having an eye towards how to help party cohesion (me and one other guy). He usually plays the wizard and I usually play a cleric and we end up being most of the battlefield control for our group. This time someone is planning to play a traditional heal and buff cleric, so I thought I would try playing a reach fighter that clogs up a section of the battlefield. Combined with the BC wizard, I think we will do okay.
Usually it is our martial classes that are disorganized and all over the place, which makes battlefield control and buffing a headache. I am hoping by playing this sort of fighter, it may serve as an example of sorts, if not for now, then maybe for later games.
I am leaning towards taking the reach polearm fighter now, since I think I am going to save the whip fighter for the upcoming Osirion campaign. One of our group has been wanting to run an Osirion game for a long time and with the AP after Worldwound being Osirion, whip fighter/tomb raider/indiana jones type seems like a good build for that one. Maybe throw in some archaeologist bard for a few levels as well :)
Well, if you do decide to go the reach weapon route (you could make this build with a Falchion, but it would be even more damage-centric and a little less controllery), feel free to drop me a line with any questions you might have.
I'm looking forward to the next two AP's big time as well.
looking at recent threads, a dwarven foehammer fighter/monk with stand still, greater trip/imp. bull rush, vicious stomp, (improved, greater) ki throw, spiked destroyer, etc. makes for a pretty good lockdown/battlefield controller, via tripping/bull-rushing/tossing people around. hits lots of times every turn via lots and lots of AoOs.
grab 2 levels in titan mauler barbarian (fluff also fitting with dwarves' hatred of giants) and wield a lucern hammer 1-handed to fit the AT's weapon training (er, if the lucerne hammer is an actual hammer and not a polearm, otherwise ignore) and do the above with reach if you want.
I'd almost always dip in maneuver master monk for combat maneuver builds
So for the reach fighter, weaponmaster over THF or polearm fighter archetypes? Any particular reason?
Faster Weapon Training advancement which means higher attack bonuses which allows you to use things like Dazing Assault more effectively.
More criticals and higher save difficulty from critical effects.
I personally don't care for the Polearm Fighter archetype.
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It's impossible to argue with Manuever Master if you are doing manuevers at all; seriously, +2 to all saves and a free extra attack. And a manuever that you can get without buying Combat Expertise (though you still have to buy it for the "greater".
Trip mileage varies; things that can't be tripped are:
*Flyers
*Oozes
*Elementals
*Lots of legs insects
*Anything huge or greater (Gargantun if you have a friendly mage w / enlarge person).
*Anything incorporeal.
For my part I like having grapple and / or dirty trick "online" as options; dirty trick has suprisingly few creatures that are immune to its blinding effect; and grapple reverses that problem of "Melees vs casters" (they can't cast ANY spells without beating 10+your CMB + spell level; which makes it effectively impossible).
But I'm in the minority in thinking CMB-masters are more relevant than damage dealers @ high levels. You do have to work hard on CMB to keep it going though.
It's impossible to argue with Manuever Master if you are doing manuevers at all; seriously, +2 to all saves and a free extra attack. And a manuever that you can get without buying Combat Expertise (though you still have to buy it for the "greater".
Trip mileage varies; things that can't be tripped are:
*Flyers
*Oozes
*Elementals
*Lots of legs insects
*Anything huge or greater (Gargantun if you have a friendly mage w / enlarge person).
*Anything incorporeal.For my part I like having grapple and / or dirty trick "online" as options; dirty trick has suprisingly few creatures that are immune to its blinding effect; and grapple reverses that problem of "Melees vs casters" (they can't cast ANY spells without beating 10+your CMB + spell level; which makes it effectively impossible).
But I'm in the minority in thinking CMB-masters are more relevant than damage dealers @ high levels. You do have to work hard on CMB to keep it going though.
You forgot things without legs (like serpents), plants, swimmers and swarms. Maneuvers just aren't worth it in my opinion - you spend an awful lot of time and energy to essentially gimp yourself against entire categories of foes, and at the end of the day, why trip or grapple something you could just kill outright?
I will say though, I've always loved my Goblin Brawler and once he got within reach of ANY spellcaster, it was over for that reason.
unfortunately, i don't have time to post a full build (sorry) but i played a fighter/monk controller that was awesome (and this was when only APG was available, so they're even better now). my suggestion would be 2-4 levels of Monk [maneuver master] with the rest all in Fighter [lore warden]. flurry of maneuvers isn't restricted to unarmed/monk weapons, and can be used in armor if you don't have (or want to invest) points for wis. lore warden gets bonuses to CMB and gets CE for free (without Int req- though you still need 13 for the greater feats). my monk used a guisarme (a reach weapon) and focused on tripping (which is even sicker now that fury's fall lets you stack str and dex for it). as has been mentioned, some things are immune to tripping but with power attack and a 2hander his damage output was high enough to just fight those things while tons of AoOs (he was usually enlarged and had combat reflexes) let him keep most of the other enemies prone and out of position.
Dirty Tricks is one of the best maneuvers in the game. The list of conditions that you can inflict is very diverse and generally speaking, if you can roleplay your action, you can inflict the condition onto an opponent.
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About maneuvers like trip, bull rush,etc. Heres my admittedly limited experience with maneuvers, in particular to stop casting...they work great until about 8-9th level. About that level humanoid opponents are few and far between, and things start flying, teleporting, dim dooring, have 4+ legs, are giant sized, etc. We have had two manuever based characters in our games, one specialized tripping monk and one a dwarven bull rusher, and both pretty much stopped bothering unless it was a perfect situation and opponent.
Granted I am taking it on faith that dazing assault is effective also, but I haven't heard much negative about that tactic so far.
I would love someone smarter about builds than me to prove otherwise, since I am a big fan of broken things I wish would work, like standard monks and crafting rules. So if I am misguided here, please help me out. Is there some sort of lorewarden uber focused build that can regularly beat out demon type CMDs at higher level? We
@Wiggz,
Okay so Weaponmaster pays more dividends in the crit side of the house. Thought maybe the extra damage from THF archetype or the "short haft" ability of the polearm archetype might make up for the other.
i can't find it right now but a few months ago i drew up a maneuver master 2/lore warden 4 (on a 20 point buy) and i believe his unbuffed CMB to trip was +20 at 6th level, so i have to think that by 18-19th level (with some buffs from the party) he should be able to manage a Balor's 54 CMD- the bigger problem is that Balors, and many high level baddies, can fly which negates tripping. one of the nice things about a fighter with a monk dip is that you get so many feats you can be great at one combat maneuver and still have enough feats to be a solid damage dealer as well.
low level = trip, grapple and dirty
med level = dazing assault
high end level = crit feats.
Pretty much, yeah.