Dragonwinged Ram

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Looking to make a dumb Dwarf for society play. Really, really silly stats on this one:

Str 18 Dex 16 Con 16
Int 07 Wis 09 Cha 05

I might consider dropping Str to 17 and push Wis to 12, but that'll probably be that. I will have the racial alternate trait that lets you reroll failed saves against charm and compulsions and gives a +2 bonus against those.

1 Two Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw
2 Power Attack
3 Improved Sunder

Sample equipment:
20 light hammers
2 Warhammers
2 Light Maces
1 Earthbreaker
1 Dwarven Longhammer (if it is a hammer)

At least to start. Combat tactics would be quickdrawing light hammers and chucking them at range. Quickdrawing a Warhammer and a light mace for close combat, an Earthbreaker for sundering, and perhaps a dwarven longhammer for some reach. A few questions:

How do I even carry all those things? Is there a weapon rack backpack thing in ultimate equipment or do weapons come with sheathes? I'm aiming to be comically overloaded in hammers and jangling everywhere I walk, potentially even using a different weapon for each hit just for giggles. I will have one or two decent magic weapons; the earthbreaker for sundering and the warhammer general use.

Also, Any guarantee the longhammer is actually a hammer? I can't find it in any current fighter group list. (That should really be spelled out in the weapon synopsis.)

Thanks for your advice. Feat selection down the road is welcome. I will probably bump Dex at some point for improved two weapon fighting.

Additinal question

Another spell in his domain is nightmare (in the night subdomain and darkness domain) which does have the evil subtype as a spell. I was thinking perhaps it was replaced in the book in which he originally appeared.. All I have to go on is champions of purity's inside cover.

Here's a few d12 builds

High Noon:

Human Gunslinger (Musket Master)
Str: 14
Dex: 19 (bump at 4th)
Con: 13 (bump at 8th)
Int: 08
Wis: 14
Cha: 07

Weapons w/ d12: Musket, Greataxe

1. Gunsmithing, Rapid Reload (Musket), Quick Draw, Point Blank Shot
3. Rapid Shot
4. Precise Shot
5. Deadly Aim
7. Power Attack
8. Improved Critical (Musket)

Whether in close or far away, you can shot 'em up with your musket or drop it and pull out your greataxe. Either way, you're hitting with d12's. Critting with a Musket has you roll FFFFOUR d12's!

Weapon Specialist:

Dwarf Fighter (Weapon Master)
Str: 18 (All bumps)
Dex: 12
Con: 16
Int: 07
Wis: 14
Cha: 06

Weapon: Dwarven Longaxe

1. Weapon Focus, Power Attack
2. Cleave
3. Steel Soul
4. Cleaving Finish
5. Great Cleave
6. Vital Strike
7. Improved Cleaving Finish
8. Greater Weapon Focus
9. Lunge
10. Furious Focus
11. Improved Vital Strike

As many bonuses to hit and extra hits as you can combine. Vital strike for standard actions without neighboring enemies to cleave, and cleaving otherwise. All other feats based upon increasing to-hit bonuses.

I'll have do do more research for a Sohei build.

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A dwarf TWFing with two Longaxes! Ye gods! That'd be hilarious!

The penalties would be steep. -6 for each hand? Ouch. Add in power attack... or don't.

The cleaving idea is pretty good and works well from low levels.

I think Wild Rager for 2 levels with a really low Charisma score to offset the will save when I drop a bloke. It allows me to full attack with an extra axe and only costs a -2 to attack rolls (and -4 to AC). Then take fighter levels. Vital strike feats, Improved Crit, Weapon Focus, all good stuff.

I had to wait until 12 noon to post this. I just had to.

These are some excellent ideas!

Barbarian seems like it's a must. I don't roll for HP, but having 12 to start is a grand idea.

Two weapon fighting with greataxes is a HILARIOUS idea! There's also the wild rager archetype. 2 levels of that and you get a spare attack each round and still throw 1.5 times your strength onto the damage roll... but that's not the point, the point is d12's.

Vital Strike: Obviously!

Cleave: Of course!

Titan Mauler: Probably the way to go, at least for 2 levels. They go fighter or ranger for bonus feats and take as many vital strikes as possible... That way you can move in and vital strike and roll d12s, then when it comes time to full attack you can have a much larger opportunity to roll d12's. Or just go full Titan Mauler. Is it PFS legal?

I suppose human would be the way to go for this, although a dwarf with two greataxes is pretty wicked.

Damn: 12:02. Can't wait ten minutes, gotta go to work.

Edit: Those d4's as d12s is a very interesting idea. I have plenty of ordinary d12s at the moment. I may ditch my caltrops if I can find me some of dose.

For some odd reason, I really like them there dodecahedrons. I've got quite a collection. What would be the best method to roll as many of these as I can a round?

This prolly means: No small characters. Probably a full-babber. Two-handed weapon.

Weapons that let you roll d12s: Greataxe, Lucerne Hammer, Flying Blade, Musket

Weapons that are even more d12'd!: Double-barreled Musket, Double Hackbut

Any ideas? A keen Greataxe with multiple attacks is prolly the simplest method. Some crazy gunslingerness may be more effective at later levels.

Mounted full attack vs Charging lance damage

The Roughrider is an interesting archetype. In some ways it seems to mandate multiclassing. (How else to get heavy armor prof for your mount? I suppose it doesn't really need proficiency if you aren't attacking with its natural attacks, but even so.) It gives a lot of mount protection and uses the mount as a vehicle to get you to the full attack, and eventually full attack spread out. Looks like it might be neat for a TWF build.

The Dragoon on the other hand pays hardly any heed at all to the mount, but certainly makes the lance your weapon of choice what with +2 damage instead of +1 for weapon training.

Either way I'll take at least 4 levels of Cavalier and the Horse Master feat for a full mount. Dragoon probably would take fewer levels of Fighter as the higher abilities aren't that interesting. The 15th level ability(ies) for the roughrider make for quite the 20th level capstone.

Roughrider version:

Gnome/Halfling Cav 4 (Emissary, Order of the Cockatrice), Fighter 16 (Roughrider)
1 Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack (Cav 1)
2 Spirited Charge (Ftr 1)
3 Taunt, Dazzling Display (Cav 2)
4 -- (Cav 3)
5 Power Attack (Cav 4)
6 TWF (Ftr 2)
7 Horse Master (Ftr 3)
8 ITWF (Ftr 4)
9 Trample (Ftr 5) (Etc...)

Dragoon version:

Gnome/Halfling Cav 11 (Gendarme, Order of the Cockatrice), Fighter 9 (Dragoon)

1 Mounted Combat, Skill Focus (Ride), Ride By Attack (Ftr 1 )
2 Spirited Charge (Cav 1)
3 Taunt, Dazzling Display (Cav 2)
4 -- (Cav 3)
5 Weapon Focus (Lance) (Cav 4)
6 Power Attack (Cav 5)
7 Horse Master, Dodge (Ftr 2 )
8 -- (Ftr 3)
9 Weapon Spec (Lance), Retrain Dodge: Shatter Defenses, Trick Riding (Ftr 4)
10 -- (Ftr 5)

I think I prefer the Roughrider version overall. Much more flexibility if you can't charge, although many class features die without the mount.

Order of the Cockatrice because it's got fun roleplay flavor. I also like Order of the Shield, but the edicts aren't as nifty.

Any suggestions, comments, or other?

You can ONLY make a single melee attack is highly limiting and contradictory to other sources.

I want to know what kind of action it is. As of now it seems to me the mounted combat rules are broken. You can make full round actions while moving on a mount that probably weren't designed with the intent of being done while moving. At this strict a reading, there are class features that are useless; This would include the Cavalier's 11th level ability to make a free combat maneuver on a charge if that requires an attack role. This limits using ANY combat maneuver that isn't explicitly able to replace an attack. You can be Gannondorf grappling Zelda onto the back of your saddle. You can't dash up to someone and put a bag on their head (dirty trick: blinded or entangled) because that's a standard action, not an attack. You can't bull rush unless doing it as a part of a charge because it's a standard action. You can't take attacks of opportunity.

My reading of "single melee attack" in this instance is not going to be taken separately from the threadword "essentially" as that reads to be a qualifier of the previous statement.

But the rules do not adequately describe what you can do. And that's a darn shame. Mounted combat is already hard enough what with mounts in dungeons and the feat investment. The rules that can lead to arguments like this make it nigh impossible.

Here's how I'm gonna suggest my group runs it.

If your mount does not move more than 5 ft total for the round: You can full attack, and make full round actions. Your mount can also.

If your mount moves 10 or more feet per round: You can make a move and a standard action at any point during movement. Your mount can also make a standard action so long as it only uses one move action, but only at the beginning or ending of a move.

Suggestion for any rules changes: Get rid of the word "only." Without any qualifiers within the same sentence, it can be taken out of context like this. If it IS in the correct context, spell it out with words such as those used for Whirlwind Attack (no extra attacks granted by feats, spells, or class features etc.) and then errata EVERY SINGLE mention of any free or other actions gained for mounted characters or even unmounted characters that should be able to do the thing their class says they should be able to do while mounted so that it ignores that rule.
As of now it's as clear as mud.

I did make a single melee attack. And it hit. And now the cleave feat says I can make an additional attack on the next guy. Normally you can't do that, but the cleave feat says you can.

Ignoring the following line is problematic: "Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack."

It explicitly limits full attacks of that I have no problem. It doesn't use the Whirlwind Attack text which explicitly limits bonus attacks from feats and what not. I did wait until my mount got to my enemy(ies), and now I'm hitting them.

So if I use that melee attack to make a Trip attempt and I have greater trip, I can't make attacks of opportunity?
If I have the Cleaving Finish feat and I drop the guy with my single melee attack, I can't take an additional attack?

The cleave feat is a single attack. It uses those words. And then, if you hit, you get an extra!


d20pfsrd.com wrote:

You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.

So I move. I make a single melee attack using Cleave. I hit! And then I get my additional attack on an adjacent baddy. I continue moving.

A question I just asked opened a whole can of worms for me, and the answer to this question should solve it...

Can you make standard actions while mounted? If yes, how much movement do you get? Where along the line of movement can I perform them?

Standard actions like feint, dirty trick, cleave, reposition, drawing stowed items, and others thank you.

So cleave would actually be less useful for a mounted character, as a standard walking character can walk in and cleave, but a mounted character cannot if the distance is greater than 5 feet?

And now to get more confusing; what about single attacks made as a full round action? (As with Death or Glory) Can I move before, after, or both while using a feat like that? Can I do it during my mount's spring attack? Oy.

Thank you for your quick reply.

Edit: Also, does this mean I can't do standard actions in general (unless they can also be attacks), as with Feint, Dirty Trick, or Reposition?

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Mounted combat rules... so confusingly written.

Q: Can I use Cleave while mounted during movement? That is, can I steer my mount into range, cleave or great cleave more than one creature, and then have my mount continue moving?

Q: Can I attack while my mount is moving as a part of a full round action, as with Spring Attack? Example: My mount uses spring attack. At the time I approach threatening range, I attack (or even cleave/vital strike) and then the mount continues as per normal.

Q: The rules don't mention anything about attacking and then moving. It's all about moving and then attacking. If I attack (or cleave or vital strike or other standard action) and THEN my mount does nothing but move, how much movement can I get my mount to do?

A small Beast Rider Cavalier Oot Cocatrice riding a Deinonychus/Velocraptor going down the EH Serpentine bloodline.

You get Skill Focus Diplomacy for face skills, and then your face can grow venomous fangs, and then you get the ability to talk with reptiles (and your animal companion) at will along with a familiar that gives you a +3 bonus to Bluff, and you can get a boost to natural armor that increases with level.

If you use a gnome with either the Fell Magic or Pyromancer alt. racial traits, you even have a touch attack SLA that you can give to your familiar.

You can retrain Cleave if you have to. Power Attack as a prereq isn't bad and you'll almost certainly take it at some point. A nice facsimile of Great Cleave can be purchased in the form of a Mighty Cleaving weapon and sold at a later date. When you can cleave to the person behind or in front of the initial attack, it doesn't look so bad. They still need to be adjacent, so if you're good enough at combat maneuvers you may find the true feats worth while. Otherwise, make sure you take 'em at appropriate retraining levels.

Whips are very handy for battlefield control. You cover a wide area (fifteen foot) and can use improved/greater trip to great effect. If you take the Whip Mastery feat chain to its end-point you'll be able to do some pretty wicked tricks; grapple the spellcaster, trip hoards on an AOO, and go Indiana Jones on people.

I advocate for racial proficiency wherever possible. Half-Orc can do it easily.

You will probably already get Combat Expertise for the improved feats so it won't be as much of a tax if you're looking for Whirlwind Attack. You could also do a Whirlwind Attack greater trip which your non-ranged attack allies would love you for.

Half-Orc Fighter (With Whips as racial martial weapons, Weapon master or mobile fighter as a probable archetype)
1. Weapon Focus (Whip), Combat Expertise
2. Whip Mastery
3. Improved Trip
4. Dodge
5. Whip Mastery, Improved
6. Greater Trip
7. Combat Reflexes
8. Spring Attack
9. Whirlwind Attack (With a fifteen foot reach baby!)

Alternatively you could cleave to get your spare attacks but I'm not entirely certain you can cleave with combat maneuvers.

Season with Weapon Finesse, Specialization, and Power Attack to taste.
Your trips will provoke AOOs within ten feet.

If you take the Monk level in Master of Many Styles, you could use your bonus feat to take Kirin Style sans prereqs. One level for two feats. If you dare take a 2nd level and delay spellcasting further, you get Kirin Strike also without prereq.

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Could a mounted duelist use a lance to qualify for most of its class features, like parry? (Assuming it leaves its other hand free.)

I'm building a Gnome Mysterious Stranger (1)/Sorcerer (6)/Eldritch Knight (to 10 if possible) as a back-up character. The concept I have is of a wealthy gentleman hunter with Bartholomew as his unspeaking manservant. Of course, his manservant is actually a spell effect (Unseen Servant, Reloading Hands, Pilfering Hands, etc.)

Gunslinging is fairly feat intensive, so most of the feats are probably going in that direction. If I have space I'd like to take Craft Arms and Armor. Otherwise, feats and levels look to be as follows:

1: Gunsmithing (bonus), Rapid Reload [Pistol](Mysterious Stranger)
2: (Sorcerer) (First level spells)
3: Point-Blank Shot (Sorc)
4: (Sorc)
5: Rapid Shot (Sorc) (2nd level spells)
6: (Sorc)
7: Precise Shot (3rd level spells)(Sorc)
8: Deadly Aim (EK)
9: Craft Arms and Armor? (EK)

Some handy tricks:
1. Reloading hands with a Culverin. Probably my favourite tactic. A 2nd level 30' cone of shrapnel.
2. Named Bullet and eventually its greater counterpart to obtain autocrits and regain grit.
3. Obscuring Mist (or other similar) with scatter weapons.
4. Flying while gunslinging is awesome.
5. Abundant Ammo to save money in early levels.

A few questions: What non-gunslinger spells should I take? Are there any firearm spells I should avoid? (Ricochet Shot is iffy; it seems as though it could cause misfire off the ricochet.)

And what bloodline should I go with? I'm restricted to hardcover books. I was hoping for a noble bloodline but the closet is the Human one out of ARG and I want to stick with Gnome. I'm thinking either Serpentine or Primal (of fire). For serpentine I'll take the gnome Magical Linguist route and get some bard-like face skills with Diplo as a class skill and Bluff boosted with a familiar. For Primal I'll get some very useful first and second level spells and I can focus my roleplay on the Splodies aspect of things and relishing fire damage. (And of course I'll have the fire based gnome magical race trait.)

Any other suggestions or comments?

If you can wait for it, Holy Vindicator gives you heavy armor and full weapon proficiency and works very well with a shield.

If you go with a Cavalier, you'd need 2 or 4 levels to make it worth your while. Order of the Star only gets the level stacking Channel ability at 2nd level. You need the Horse Master feat if you want to keep your mount, and that requires the 4th level Cavalier ability.

If you still only want a single level, take the Standard Bearer archetype so you don't have to worry about a level-one mount always hanging on to you and if it dies you get nerfed.

I have made, but have not yet played, a Holy Vindicator/Cleric/Cavalier of Order of the Star as a kind of build-your-own-paladin of any alignment. (I'm waiting for a more roleplay friendly campaign than the one I'm in to bring it forth.)

I'm fairly sure your spellcasting question has been answered so I'll leave it at that.

For a man eating attack horse, use both feats and items. Amulet of Mighty Fists gives your horses attacks bonuses to hit and/or other weapon bonuses you may find interesting. You can also take the feats to allow heavy armor proficiency so it becomes a tank in combat. This isn't light on the gold at quadruple cost and it also eats feats and slows you down, but your horse will be scary, hard to take down, and as effective in combat as you could hope for. (You can even take the Trample feat, which is one of the most satisfying feats you could ever hope to use.)

Your horse will have a bite (1d4 primary) and two hooves (1d6 2ndary) to smack people down. If you are mounted and using a lance, you can five-foot step between attacks with your lance and your horses full round of attacks to press loads of damage. Take a more conventional sword or other weapon if you'd rather keep your five-footer available.

That's the man-eating horse in a nutshell.

Feat suggestions: Power attack, Light Armor Prof (bonus), Medium and heavy armor prof. Multiattack. Improved overrun. Toughness.
Put your stat bonuses into INT if you want to get more interesting feats, and strength or constitution otherwise.

Also, if you have teamwork feats that allow for AOOs (such as Broken Wing Gambit) as a part of your Tactician ability, Combat Reflexes ensures your mount can take the attacks even if no allies are nearby.

I wish Paladin was an option. I suppose we're also seeing the mechanical disadvantages of evil aligned characters in a party; no or weaker healing.

A wizard, a cleric, a summoner, and a ninja walk into a dungeon...

If it sounds like the start of a joke, it is. It's not a very funny one. None of us can hit. Buffing all day can only do so much with limited resources. It really does help to have a full BAB fellow to iron things out.

That said, my cleric is very martial (and I'm swapping it to Oracle because I can't stands preparing spells no more!) and in theory SHOULD be able to hit, I don't (yet) have the full resources to pull that off.

While I am converting from a Cleric of Gorum to a Battle Oracle of Gorum (Wasting curse, full weapon and armor prof, weapon focuses in Greatsword, Diehard, Many initiative rolls) and I should be BETTER at taking the front line, it has yet to be seen.

One of the players has suggested that we have some sort of swappable characters. As in, at the start of the day at the time you may prepare spells, you also prepare character. So I could swap my Cleric come Oracle for, say, my Ranger or Cavalier.

It's an interesting idea, to be sure. I think it comes with more unintended consequences than we see at the moment.

In terms of advice, has anyone done something like this before? If we didn't need healing so damn badly I wouldn't have been a bloody cleric in the first place and would stick with my usual Full BAB. Oracle seems a compromise, but it is still a compromise. Has anyone used these backup characters before?

Order of the Dragon is an excellent Order. It pairs best with the Honor Guard archetype. Rather than focusing on charging around the battlefield, you crowd around the enemies on the battlefield. This makes the greatest use of your teamwork feats and your excellent Challenge ability which allows allies that mutually threaten a challenged enemy a +1 bonus (+1 per four levels.)

This also maximizes your ability to aid another your allies with huge bonuses you get from the second ability. It works with either mounted combat or unmounted combat, and if you have a maneating attack horse it will get your bonuses too.

Required feats: Combat Reflexes and Power Attack
Strongly Recommended: Mounted Combat and In Harms Way
At your option: Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge (good, but not your main focus should you follow this route), Combat maneuvers (why not take trip or reposition with Combat expertise or Overrun to get into flanking positions and provoke AOO's when you take the greater version at 6th)

Reach weapons are still your friend, as you can stay adjacent to more allies and still threaten to give bonuses. If you have a large mount, the number of allies you can be adjacent to increases as you occupy a large square. Threaten over their heads and aid-another at your leisure.

This also allows you to invest in at least one huddling teamwork feat that gives you bonuses for adjascentness. I like the saving throws one personally. Your mount is always an ally and always next to you if you're on it.

The Mounted Combat Trick: Get your mount some smarts and teach it the feats Bodyguard and In Harm's Way. If you get hit or take in harms way, your mount can take the hit from you and if you have Mounted Combat can then negate the hit. This can also be used to soak attacks with ride checks that you In Harms Way from your allies.

For skill ranks, take your Diplomacy to 11!

Huh, so I don't even need Spring Attack unless I just want to skip AOOs. Neat.

Thanks for the help!

If the mount had spring attack, IT could attack.

Why is the answer no? Spring attack says "You do this" and mounted combat rules say "you move at your mounts speed."

Also, why does the Gendarme get Spring Attack if it's supposed to be an entirely mounted character?

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I've been looking for this in searches, but other more niche questions keep coming up.

Can you use Spring Attack while mounted? The (vague) mounted combat rules state "You move at its (the mount's) speed, but the mount uses its action to move."

This leads me to believe that if I am mounted and I have the SA feat, even if my mount doesn't, I can spring attack as a full round action.

Confirmation or evidence to the contrary?

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The stock cavalier class features allow a cavalier to be pretty darn good at Charging with Lance even without Spirited Charge and Ride-By. If you're worried about there being no space for a charging cavalier most of the time, you don't NEED to go down that route. I mean, working up from ONLY double damage to triple only makes sense if you can do it a lot. Otherwise its a feat you may not really need to use.

(That said, if you can continuously ride-by attack and charge, all those banner bonuses and damage multipliers... yipe!)

Keep in mind, the Mount gets feats too. If you give the mount enough Smarts to learn some handy feats, even some of the teamwork feats you may already have, you will always have an "adjacent ally" handy. Pack attack is one of my faves; allows free movement to possibly get into flanking position and doesn't have a dex requirement that Precise Strikes does.
If he will in fact spend time mounted, you can give your mount the Bodyguard and In Harms Way feats (intelligence pending) and then negate an attack ON YOURSELF with a ride check. (Creature attacks you, Mount uses immediate action to use In Harms Way, you ride check to make that attack miss using Mounted Combat as an immediate action.)

The feats you have are fine and dandy. They are simple and easy to remember. He may end up feeling a little lackluster if he doesn't get to charge.

Out of Ultimate Equipment, you can get Pokeball armor (Hosteling Property) which allows you to store your horse in your heavy armor.

Order of the Dragon is a fan-diddly-an-TASTIC order. Just by being there, you make people better. The challenge ability makes EVERYONE better while facing the big bad; not a case of charge in, but a case of sit next to him to keep him threatened and all your pals get to-hit bonuses.

As a possible alternative, consider the Honor Guard archetype in UC. You swap out some of the strictly mounted combat abilities for abilities that are more generally useful in close quarters melee. It also works REALLLLLY WELL with the order of the dragon (aid another abilities get better and better by level, and the Honor Guard archetype gives you free Bodyguard feat, which you can use to aid another for AC as an AOO, give at LEAST a +4 bonus and it gets better every 6 levels.)

Its a fair bit more complicated a build than what you have. It seems to me as though you're working to make a simple, easy to use character right-out-of-the-box. The ones I'm suggesting encourage a player to stay close to the centre of melee rather than charging all about, aid the buddies on the front lines, all the while being a full bab character that can be Large sized with huge speed if there's the space for it.

Shifty wrote:


Hang on

5Bab+5Str+1Mwklance-2PA=9 Where does the other 5 come from?

This isn't stacking up too well, especially if only 18 Str.

Charging gets you +4 with no AC penalty while mounted. You have a banner that gives a +1 bonus on the charge.

I'm very fond of the Cavalier. Charging is great, but you don't have to do it all the time. If you don't want to charge, there are archetypes that can help with that.

One of the reasons I like them is they make small races easier to make combat viable. I prefer Full BAB characters, but I like small races too.

Cavalier! Cavalier cavalier cavalier!

DM buddy: I'm thinking of starting a new game...

Me: Oooh! I'm gonna be a Cavalier.

DM buddy: It takes place almost entirely underground in tight spaces with no room to charge.

Me: Oh... okay.

One of these days I will get the chance and it will be so sweet! Meanwhile I'll stick with anything else full BAB or with bardic performance.

I'm playing a prepared caster now and I'm really annoyed by it. The in potentia power is limited by all that book-keeping making it impractical for me to use. And I'm only a Cleric. I don't have a spellbook to worry about.

I also really WANT to play a Cavalier, but the way my group works with all the dungeons the viability of it is exceedingly limited. The moment I get a chance, I'm taking it!

Magus, Wizard, Alchemist, and to a lesser extent Cleric don't do much for me.

Yes, its true I can use it for Somatic components, but not materail.

Here's the original fighter:

2. Power Attack
3. Shield Focus
4. Step Up
5. Missile Shield (Teamwork: Outflank)
6. Shield Slam
8. Step Up
9. Disruptive
10. Spellbreaker
11. Shield Master
12. Ray Shield (Trade Step Up for Pin Down)
13. Teleport Tactician

And here's a few ways I could trim that down to a bard.

1. Shield focus, Missile Shield (Acrane Strike)
2. (Combat Caster)
3. Step Up
5. Combat Reflexes
6. (Disruptive)
7. Bodyguard/Lingering Performance/Spellsong/Spell Focus: Enchantment
9. In Harm's Way/Lingering Performance/Spellsong/Spell Focus: Enchantment
10. (Spellbreaker)
11. Ray Shield
13. Teleport Tactician


1. TWF, ISB, (Arcane Strike)
2. (Combat Caster)
3. Shield Focus
5. Missile Shield
6. (Disruptive)
7. Step Up
9. Combat Reflexes/Shield Slam/ITWF
10. (Spellbreaker)
11. Ray Shield
13. Teleport Tactician

Eitherway I'll probably use a longsword as my bonded object.

The team looks like it will be composed of a Barbarian, probably a Ranger, an Oracle (flame or heavens), and what I pick. There's another player on the fence who usually plays monk or rogue. We begin at level 4. With two potentially heavy hitters, I think a bard would go over very well.

So I had previously looked at making a tactician fighter based arund an old soldier who would tell tales of heroism, perhaps true perhaps not. The crunch of the feats made him a twf shield basher with ray shield and step up and other anticaster feats.

Well the party thats frming lks t be heavy on the hitters and light on the buffs, and the concept works with arcane duelist, so why not give it a shot?

I want to keep ray shield for 11th, but what fighting style to use? Twf or just the shield and a one handed weapn? I will be doing a lt of up frnt anti caster wrk, so step up is a good idea. Given i wont have a free hand for them, material compnents in combat are no good. I will be at least middle aged.

I'll come back later and post more ideas when I have a keyboard proper with a working O.


Hello, I have an urban campaign coming up and am trying to build a character for it. I'm thinking of mixing a Monk (Master of Many Styles and Monk of the Sacred Mountain) with the Urban Ranger and using style feats to make a TWFish Grapplingish combatant. Dwarf as the race, because Dwarves are cool.

1. M: Snapping Turtle Style, Improved Unarmed Strike (Bonus), Stunning Fist (Bonus), Dragon Style (Bonus)
2. M: Snapping Turtle Clutch (Bonus), Toughness (Bonus)
3. R: Improved Grapple
4. R: Two-Weapon Fighting (Bonus), (Favored Enemy)
5. R: Power Attack
6. R: Animal companion?
7. R: Greater Grapple
8. R: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (Bonus)

Unless I'm reading things wrong, Dragon style would let me make my unarmed strikes as 1.5 times strength bonus, so if I fight with a Warhammer in one hand and a fist in the other, I'll deal 1d8 + Strength with the hammer and 1d6 + 1.5 times Strength for the other once I pick up TWF at 4th. I will also be able to grapple as an immediate action when I'm missed in combat, which is also very cool.

I'm not the most experienced player, so I'm fairly sure I've done something wrong here. I'm also not entirely sure whether or not I should wear armor (perhaps armorless at early levels and donning it when enhancements outclass wisdom), what I should do for an animal companion if any, or any other things I'm probably missing. Suggestions welcome.

Haunted Fey Aspect. You appear as a crazy fey. Use it while intimidating, pretending someone else has possessed you or your actions are otherwise not your own, become a god of backwoods people who don't know any better, and add weight to your prophecies (whether they're true or not). Best used with a DM willing to work with the illusion aspect of it and think beyond the DR 1/cold iron.

Whenever people talk about better average damage, I wonder what keeps them coming back to the table. Is it because they tally up the total damage the deal at the end of the session and average it among the number of hits and smirk with satisfaction at the high average they have achieved...

Or is it because that one time you really needed to, you confirmed your crit and rolled two twelves and an eleven.

It's the same reason people get addicted to slot machines. You don't remember the nearlies as much as you remember the amazings.

Then again I'm sure some people do like their smirks.

Oh man, some of these suggestions are so cool!

For the fighter/beast bonded witch combo, could you take the Eldrich Heritage: Arcane to take a familiar with a better class level total? I love the idea of a flanking goat.

Man oh man, the valet archetype does some silly, silly things.

Thanks for the ideas, cats!

For a long time, I've wanted to do something neat with a basic familiar. (That is, not taking the Improved Familiar feat.) I have always loved the classic tropes of wizards and witches with bonded animals to enhance their ability, though it needn't be limited to those classes.

One of the things I've come up with would be a Gnome or Halfling with a pig or goat as a familiar using reduce person and a Lance. (Or enlarge person on the familiar if spell sharing works that way.)

I read somewhere about the Half-Elf barbarian with a grappling Ferret. That sounded neat too.

But even then, having never used a familiar, I hardly know what they're capable of. Witches are probably not the best to use as they cannot risk their familiar to much. I rather like some of the druid domains that grant familiars (Monkey in particular, mostly for the flavor of it.) Those rare full BAB classes that get familiars (Buccaneer gunslinger for example) are also interesting, though I'm not sure how much benefit they can really get from it. Of course, with Eldritch Heritage, any class could get a familiar.

So, what ideas do you have? Again, I'd prefer not to use improved familiar, just the basic ones.

Okay, Furious Focus it is, thank you!

Yes, my GM doesn't use the standard point buy.

I don't qualify for lots of combat feats with dex 12. Maybe instead Dex 14, Con 12 and take Toughness for the difference? Then can use combat feat in rounds per day for things like Dodge or Combat Reflexes as necessary. (Edit: Oh man, I forgot to put my ability increases at 4 and 8! Maybe put one in dex and one in wis?)

I also like Heavy Armor, because full plate is badass.

Number allotment: 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 10.
I have a 20 STR (18+2 half-orc to 20), 12 DEX, 14 CON, 16 WIS, 10 CHA, 10 INT. Numbers can switch. Can take up to a -2 on a 10 with good reason, but probably won't. Will likely get a +2 STR/DEX belt soon if not at character start. (Already have a +2 belt, for STR.)

Quick summary:
Half-Orc, Cleric of Gorum, LV 9, CN
Weapon: +1 Spellstoring, Conductive greatsword.
Domains: Tactics and Protean (Tactics gives me free combat feats.
Playstyle: Battle Cleric. Some precombat buffs. First round selfbuff or groupbuff, then attack! Postcombat healing.

1. Endurance (Half-Orc alt racial trait bonus), Diehard
3. Power Attack.
5. Craft Magic Arms and Armor
7. Improved Initiative
9. ???

Combat Casting? Combat Reflexes? Toughness? Something else? I can get any combat feat as a swift action for a number of rounds/day equal to my level via Tactics domain.

Your wisdom is appreciated. My first session is tomorrow.

After going through many permutations, I think I've come down to two possibilities. They aren't all that close to the original concept.

The one domain I'll take for sure is the Protean domain. It has an excellent ability for a Conductive weapon, and the Aura acts as a mass debuff that doesn't take much energy to maintain.

The next domain is either the archetype Evangelist or the Resolve domain.

Evangelist's Inspire Courage helps the summoner hit (which it has trouble doing) and will buff any summons the summoner chooses to use in the later levels. The ability to spontaneously cast Greater Command means I can use a longspear and order the enemy to charge. As they comply, I poke them with AOO's like a reach cleric.

Pros: I can be at the centerpoint of a buff/debuff aura that makes all my buddies better and all my enemies half as effective. I can have a spellstoring, conductive longspear to store Hold Person and pretty well guarantee a failed save.
Cons: Domain spells aren't anything I can't cast myself, with the exception of Displacement I think. Light armor makes me an easier target. The inability to spontaneously cast cure spells means I actually have to memorise 'em.

The Resolve domain stinks overall, however it really plays into my roleplay theme: I'm already dead, and this is my afterlife. What are you doing in it? Lets fight!
This version would be better at healing over all, while still following the strategies of the Evangelist version. Difference being my buffs are more Start of the Day based. The key spells I like here are Righteous Might and Hero's Feast, which I intend to cast every day it's practical either way.

Pros: Better at bringing the team back from the dead. Closer to my intended roleplay model. Still have medium armor prof. Many of the pros of the above version without the buff ability being as prominant. More diverse domain spells, including ones I want to cast a lot. Don't need to bother memorizing cure spells.
Cons: Have to memorize Greater Command rather than spontaneously cast it. I have to spend standard actions and spell slots to get party buffs rather than move actions.

Either one would probably be fun to play. I don't think they'll be as easy to play as a run-up-and-smash-things cleric. Then again, clerics are nice because you don't need a perfect build when you store your spells in the cloud, so to speak.

I would love heroism. It's not in Gorum's portfolio.

How would your wizard feel about changing things into other things? Transmutation needn't be your favoured school, but it does offer plenty of boon to a party.

Also, out of curiosity, would this mind control aversion extend to a familiar?

She can't summon with the SLA's its true, but she can use the spell if she knows it. Or she just won't have the eidolon summoned. She's taking the sorcerer bloodline feats that allow extra demons to be summoned.

The player playing the wizard recommends Tactics and Destruction, perhaps not knowing what his character is getting into with that Aura of Critical Hits.

I wouldn't at all mind using the Crusader archetype. It would save me a feat (Heavy Armor Prof) I get a nice damage bonus (Weapon Focus and Spec for Greatsword). Fewer spells per day, of course, so my lone domain becomes all the more important for spell selection.

@ Urist: Ack, another domain selection (given that crusader removes a domain). What is a good spell to spread around with the 8th level ability? Aside from curing, because I think the Mass cure spells are already at that level.

@ Psion: You've hit the nail on the head. It's psychology at this point. I suppose the other option would be to go Glory and Destruction and screw everyone equally.

Wizard 1: Playing a very generic universalist wizard. Focused on blasts and battlefield control (but is better at blasts than control). Does not want to die. Has a backup.
Wizard 2: Wizard with a gun. Focused on blasts, crafts, and roleplay. Really likes his character.
Summoner: I'm not sure she can die. Very well built character.
Mysterious 5th player: Hasn't yet joined. Apparently wants to play a witch. Wierdness.

So two blasties and a tank. This puts me in the support role. Hopefully it can also be the support and hitting things role.

I'm still working on my battle cleric. I had thought I had a good choice of domains. Paring down choices is hard.

My god is Gorum. I have access to Chaos (not interested), Destruction, Glory, Strength, and War. Subdomains Rage (not interested; I have a barbarian in my other game and I don't want play the same character), Ferocity, Resolve, Blood, and Tactics. There's also Protean but it isn't particularly interesting (the 8th level power is neat, the spells aren't).

I love Tactics. It's a great domain with decent spells.

My first choice was Glory, because those Paladins spells (especially Holy Sword) are amazing.
Problem: This is greatly complicated by the fact that there's a CE Synthesist summoner in the party and if I have a Magic Circle vs Evil up when I have my sword out, the Demons she'll be summoning at that level won't be able to approach.
The domain power is very handy to protect the TWO wizards who are very squishy. (This power being the Aura that acts like a Sanctuary.)

Pros: Wicked self buffs and a handy power that lets you use them.
Cons: Some of the spells potentially neutralize a party member.

My next choice would be Destruction. I love that ability to add half my level to all damage rolls, and auto confirm criticals. Whee! Walk around with a keen Falchion and go to town.
Problem: While the Summoner would work well with this power, the wizards won't. I'd be taking everyone's character's life into my hands by using it. It would work AMAZINGLY with extra characters like the demons that eventually will be summoned all the time.
Also, while Disintigrate is a cool spell, my character's max stat is Strength and Dex is one of my worst, so hitting with a ray is not a guarantee, and then the saving throw is not my strong point either.

Pros: Party's damage output is increased by a lot, especially at later levels.
Cons: The party's squishies are at greater risk of instant death. The spells don't use my stats to their best.

Ferocity and Tactics could work well together. I would get both Divine Power and Righteous Might as domain spells so I can prepare more niche spells in other slots. Somehow it feels also I'm losing out relative to the other domains.

Pros: No character is completely invalidated. I get two spells I will use a lot. Everything's nice and decent.
Cons: The 8th level Strength domain power is meager. My level of badass feels reduced.

Thank you for your help and pep talks. I've never played a full spellcaster before and it's a little overwhelming. I really just want to hit things.

I did this with a Gnome.

Cavalier 4 levels, Mysterious Stranger 1. Take the Gnome race trait that allows you proficiency with the weapons you craft. A lasso is among the cheapest weapons in the game. As I leveled I planned to take horse master (the feat).

However, if going PFS, I don't think you can do that.

This would be easier to do in a home game, for certain.

brvheart wrote:

I have players that try that trick, too. Table 12-4 gives the GP amount of treasure you are supposed to have creating a new charater. Just because you are crafting it that does not change the Market cost of the item. You would spend 9000 and have 18000 deducted from your total.

Table 12–4 can also be used to budget gear for
characters starting above 1st level, such as a new
character created to replace a dead one.

Hah! If that were the case I wouldn't even bother with the craft feats. Both of the GM's I'm under use the feats straight from character creation.

So to be clear, I'm not trying any tricks. We are encouraged to do so.

The games I play in are kinda ridiculous. The point buy would make you blush. The treasure drops are huge. It's fun, but the encounters are also made by the same standards so things get silly very quickly. In some ways it's oodles of fun. In some ways it punishes that which is not perfectly well built. Each "mistake" so to speak becomes all the more costly.

Back to topic...

I could certainly remake my guy with the Destruction domain and use the 8th level everyone auto-crits aura to make a keen Falchion go VERY far. It's sorta tempting. I'd rather not take that risk with such a squishy party. Instead I (for the moment) look to be taking Glory, so I can have an aura that lets us huddle-up and plan and buff like football players before the game begins. (It sorta works into the roleplay of the character, who believes he is already in a valhalla like afterlife and death merely sends people back to the land of the living.)

One of these days I'm going to have a full crit-fisher. TWF Fighter with some blender-like talents and all sorts of critical feats.

One of the reasons I'm looking at the Impact weapon property is because I'm now looking at changing the Glory domain to Ferocity subdomain of strength. (A chaotic evil outsider summoner in the party makes a fair number of the spells I have party hazards rather than completely a benefit.) This domain provides two growth spells as domain spells, Enlarge Person and the obviously better Rightous Might. The Tactics sub War domain lets me gain Vital Strike whenever I need it. If there's ever a time where I could legitimately excuse this weapon property it would be now.

It also carries the benefit of less resource tracking. I'm very bad at managing multiple resources and prefer to build my characters so I don't have to (which is why I've never really played a full caster till now, and even then, not really.)

But yeah, even the holy property is easy to use. One of the reasons I'm not building a simple +3 weapon is that at 13th I get Holy Sword... which I now think I can't even use since there's the summoner with his demon synthesist. *sigh* Maybe I have to go CN after all.

Well, this turned a little rantier than I intended. Anywho, here's how I see it.

Glory & Tactics: +1 Greyflame, SpellStoring Greatsword, CG alignment, fun for roleplay, potential Summoner exclusion
Ferocity & Tactics: +1 Impact Greatsword or just +3, CN alignment, less fun for roleplay, no Summoner exclusion
Destruction & Tactics: +2 Keen Falchion and the party wizards die from crits as my GM rolls 20 20's consecutively.

I should have made a new threat for this. Ah well.

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