Drachasor, if all these things you claim are true, why is the world still such a s*** place to live in?
I could work that into my setting with the gods maintaining the status quo when the mortals try to overstep their boundaries.
Of course, this is a secret to all beings that are not deities of some sort or devils who trade these secrets for souls.
Replace troll with truck, and necromancer reanimating my cousin with maggots eating his corpse so badly it LOOKS like a vile monster.
Because Pathfinder, like many other editions of D&D failed to properly nerf magic.
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Thank you for reminding me. I don't believe anyone addressed the issues of how one crazy wizard can teleport around as a terrorist and be almost unstoppable -- it's just too hard to ward against teleport. There are a million other ways that would alter the setting to at least be more like our world and a lot less like a fantasy world. Though of course given how some magic works it wouldn't be an exact parallel by any means.
This discussion is why I have set a few ground rules in my campaigns for years now.
1) There are no magical sweatshops where mages churn out magical items for the populace. Aside from potions, scrolls, and the occasional wand, every magical item of any significance has a history about it. Even that +1 dagger was made BY someone FOR someone.
2) Raise dead/resurrection requires that the individual WANT to return, which most do not. Return from a virtual paradise (assuming you were a good creature) to the real world of hard labor, squalor, and poverty (unless you were royalty, etc.)? Yeah, right. Even if the soul wishes to return, the soul's deity must be willing to permit it. Many are not, especially in the case of evil beings. Finally, the costs of both raise dead and resurrection are prohibitively expensive.
3) In the case of teleportation, I have long ruled that certain ingredients in the mortar can block teleportation and astral travel. These are usually rare and difficult (but not impossible) to find,such as basilisks blood or dragon's blood.
Burning massive resources to keep people alive is a much more viable proposition when death is more of a mystery.
In a world where the afterlife is a certainty, it takes a bit of the urgency out of the issue.
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Because Pathfinder, like many other editions of D&D failed to properly nerf magic.
I don't think this is the case (well, it is - for 3.0 and on, including PF, but not for this argument).
As I said earlier in the thread, people will fall all over themselves to prove how magically, structurally and economically sound the game world is/can be with magic - and you guys/gals proved no different.
Part of the Problem
What d20 fantasy gaming fails to do, and continues to do so - is to divorce wealth/Gold with magic.
1st and 2nd ed had this separation for most of their existence since item creating was limited as was purchasing magic items, but there still was some gold = magic item correlation in those editions. But because item creation and purchase was supposed to be rare/non-existent, magic economies were curbed. As were spammable/heavily cycling powers – you couldn’t build a device that gave you unlimited steam, or heals every hour without expending greater resources than the item was giving; i.e. the concept of Diminishing Returns. The concept of DR, imo, should be the default rule governing the use of ALL magic (item creation, cost to use) or we quickly end up in the land of stupid.
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The Real Problem
People are arguing (and trying to create reason) around rules, powers and mechanics which were fundamentally designed to facilitate a limited dungeon bashing experience that came out of wargaming in the mid 1970’s. Dealing with the "reasoning" presented here by both sides is like listening to a debate between warring priests of splinter faiths who belong to the same cargo-cult.
The game doesn't make sense; the abilities are legacy abilities from a time when their existence was not thought out beyond the scope of Players vs. Objective (Dungeon). As the years have passed on and editions, power and scope of the "game world" have been expanded, there have been weak (incredibly weak) rationale and attempts to make it come together – none of which make sense.
Making it all work in a logical or consistent fashion such a tiresome retcon, I don't see the point in it (and one of the reasons why I don't really like running this game). You would need to change the cost, availability, use, counters to (which hardly exist) and consequences of magic and on top of that deal with the frequency of casters types (and population) and the impact of monsters. Under these rules with the sheer amount of available magic (and use/abuse) it just doesn’t seem to make sense or be worth the effort.
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TL;DR – Just play the game and stop trying to create some kind of rhyme or reason; this goes to both sides arguing the same thing from two different perspectives. Use what works for you, but don't try to make sense or provide reason for the why's, because their isn't one.
Given a world made for adventures, you have to work to make sense of it. It's rewarding to build up the world, not tear it down. You may not be able to fill in every gap, but you can come up with satisfactory answers to a lot of questions, and that makes for a more solid game world.
This is a case where it's perfectly reasonable to argue in a biased manner, because the answer 'the world makes no sense' doesn't benefit anyone.
So we can say that Raise Dead doesn't work for most people, but it does for adventurers, because of Destiny. Why haven't good clerics eliminated all disease? Because there aren't enough of them, and because there are pro-disease clerics too. Characters who can cast 8th level spells are almost unheard of (because if they were common the world would be very different), and the ones who are trying to do good might wind up travelling to other planes to deal with bigger problems, or creating a single small utopian nation where adventures never take place.
And if all else fails, you can blame divine intervention.
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Given a world made for adventures, you have to work to make sense of it. It's rewarding to build up the world, not tear it down. You may not be able to fill in every gap, but you can come up with satisfactory answers to a lot of questions, and that makes for a more solid game world.
Which is why I said
Use what works for you
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My problem is when people attempt to explain away game mechanics as the universal truth with sound reasoning behind the "hows" and "whys". Walking and chewing bubble gum at the same time - oh that's just constantly taking a 10, fall 50 feet for 5d6 damage, oh - characters in D&D are different from everyone else (where a 6th level NPC class character could also survive the fall). My point being was - make your own explanation, create your own consistency because as per RAW, it doesn't exist. Never did, and probably under this rule set, it never will.
Create your own consistency, but in effect - none of you are more correct than the next guy. Which is okay, unless of course you start arguing and stating that your reasoning to conclusion is the one true way of how the world works - which is what people are doing here.
This is a case where it's perfectly reasonable to argue in a biased manner, because the answer 'the world makes no sense' doesn't benefit anyone.
The game world as written does not make sense.
Bickering about who is right about how to interpret all the wrong doesn't help the matter. Instead of making personal suggestions, people in this thread are arguing points like there is a right way to accommodate or fix any of it. I don't mind each DMs take on how to address the problems that magic and class powers create (just as you did with your post), but when people start arguing about unknown variables when all the inconsistancies are derived from legacy dungeon bash class abilities I feel like I'm in crazy town.Also, if you are running straight old school, one-shot modules the world does make some sense. It makes the most sense actually. We don't worry about the magic item economy when you are stuck on the Lost Island of Castanamir - you just play the module with what you have and not worry about the ramifications of spammable mending on the those who ply in tinkering or repairing as their trade back in town.
When you are playing The Forbidden City, you are just probably using Raise Dead to bring back one of the PCs who died while facing the hazards of that module (it's the intended use of that spell for the game).
So we can say that Raise Dead doesn't work for most people, but it does for adventurers, because of Destiny. Why haven't good clerics eliminated all disease? Because there aren't enough of them, and because there are pro-disease clerics too. Characters who can cast 8th level spells are almost unheard of (because if they were common the world would be very different), and the ones who are trying to do good might wind up travelling to other planes to deal with bigger problems, or creating a single small utopian nation where adventures never take place.
And if all else fails, you can blame divine intervention.
This is all great and good as far as suggestions go, but this is not per RAW nor is it even conceptually supported by Paizo in their products. I wish some of it was - or that some reasoning was given behind each; ability, spell, item, power or creature introduced into the game world - but sadly - that isn't the case.
Because Pathfinder, like many other editions of D&D failed to properly nerf magic.
It's funny, but I have a friend that doesn't like playing Pathfinder/D&D mages because she finds them too weak. She compares them to the "great mages of fantasy fiction" and finds them wanting. Now I've read a lot of fantasy, and rarely have I found those mages to be super powerful in the sense that she wants. I've even pointed out that her biggest complaint, not enough spells, that most fantasy fiction has limitations on how much spell casting someone can do.
Thank you for reminding me. I don't believe anyone addressed the issues of how one crazy wizard can teleport around as a terrorist and be almost unstoppable -- it's just too hard to ward against teleport. There are a million other ways that would alter the setting to at least be more like our world and a lot less like a fantasy world. Though of course given how some magic works it wouldn't be an exact parallel by any means.This discussion is why I have set a few ground rules in my campaigns for years now.
1) There are no magical sweatshops where mages churn out magical items for the populace. Aside from potions, scrolls, and the occasional wand, every magical item of any significance has a history about it. Even that +1 dagger was made BY someone FOR someone.
2) Raise dead/resurrection requires that the individual WANT to return, which most do not. Return from a virtual paradise (assuming you were a good creature) to the real world of hard labor, squalor, and poverty (unless you were royalty, etc.)? Yeah, right. Even if the soul wishes to return, the soul's deity must be willing to permit it. Many are not, especially in the case of evil beings. Finally, the costs of both raise dead and resurrection are prohibitively expensive.
3) In the case of teleportation, I have long ruled that certain ingredients in the mortar can block teleportation and astral travel. These are usually rare and difficult (but not impossible) to find,such as basilisks blood or dragon's blood.
You mean exactly like the spell actually says?
"In addition, the subject's soul must be free and willing to return."
The best houserules are the ones in the corebook.
So we have an opportunity to make new characters.
It's 3.5, I believe. It's under the pathfinder name, but not game system.
It's 3.5, I believe. It's under the pathfinder name, but not game system.Right in 1.
Not that the system has changed much. I mean really. Wish was stronger and easier to abuse back in 3.5. Beyond that, not much has changed (wish is actually pretty mild now, though unlimited wishes via genies is still a pretty sweet deal from a world-affecting perspective).
Because Pathfinder, like many other editions of D&D failed to properly nerf magic.
Could this have something to do with the idea that a D&D with nerfed magic wouldn't really feel like D&D? I mean, really, Paizo wanted to pick up the mantle of 3.5/OGL D&D. Why would they radically change one of the game's defining subsystems?
Because Pathfinder, like many other editions of D&D failed to properly nerf magic.Could this have something to do with the idea that a D&D with nerfed magic wouldn't really feel like D&D? I mean, really, Paizo wanted to pick up the mantle of 3.5/OGL D&D. Why would they radically change one of the game's defining subsystems?
4th Ed did a good job of nerfing magic. Anyone who really wants that can play that game system instead of ruining this one.
Simply going by what's in the rules, there aren't enough high-level characters to hold death at bay for everyone, all the time. Most people are level 1 commoners, possibly raising to level 4 by the time they are in late middle age. If you live in a village, the nearest resurrecting cleric is a hundred miles away. Raise dead can be prevented by simply beheading your enemy. Cure disease is nice, but even mid-level clerics can do little more in a month than a modern hospital can do with cutting-edge antibiotics, although they can certainly do it faster. There is nothing in the books that implies a "post-scarcity" economy; training and maintaining a wizard who casts fabricate on a daily basis is no less an undertaking than, in the modern world, training and recruiting someone to run a world-class nuclear power plant. In fact, the nuclear power plant is probably easier, since you can probably get by with a level 6 Expert along the lines of Tesla, Bohr, or Feynman. I would draw a closer parallel between Pathfinder and the early 20th century Gilded Age, where the rich played with cars and coaches with suspension, while the average taxi was just a horse and cart. Similarly, instead of machine guns, artillery, and biplanes, you have wands of burning hands, minotaurs, and griffin cavalry.
It's kind of weird, but it doesn't stop being proper fantasy, any more than when in the 19th century, King Arthur's knights resided in a fantasy middle ages that had more in common with that century than in 7th century (or whatever).
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There was no thought put into castle security in a world where teleport exists - there still really isn't an easy long term defense for the tactic (Dimensional Lock is an 8th level spell that only covers a 20 rad area).
First edition you could do that adding gorgon blood to the mortar. And sheets of lead against scrying.
There aren't enough gorgons in the world to cover all the castles, but that make a precedent. Use costly components, specially quarried stone of some such.Dimensional lock is meant to be a "portable" solution that you can use everywhere, with a casting time of a standard action, so something for adventurers, not something used to prevent access to a specific building forever.
In the 1st edition blocking ethereal travelers was even simpler, they were unable to pass through living things (microbes and bacterias weren't' considered) so a ivy covered building was accessible only through doors and windows, and those could be protected with other means.
BTW, there is a 6th level spell that block teleportation with a long duration: Forbiddance . It has its set of problems but it work.
What in-game mechanics or abilities exist to counter invisibility,
Dogs and anything with scent.
knock,
Caster level check against the DC of the lock with a +10 bonus
Impressive at low levels, but as his level increase a Rogue is better than knock.
Level +10 against Disable device +3 (class skill) + dexterity + 2 (Masterwork tools). At fist level the rogue can have the same bonus of the wizard with dex 20. And he can take 20 on the skill check.Knock don't disable traps and is a limited resource and so on.
Magic can be countered, if needed.
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There was no thought put into castle security in a world where teleport exists - there still really isn't an easy long term defense for the tactic (Dimensional Lock is an 8th level spell that only covers a 20 rad area).First edition you could do that adding gorgon blood to the mortar. And sheets of lead against scrying.
There aren't enough gorgons in the world to cover all the castles, but that make a precedent. Use costly components, specially quarried stone of some such.
Checking my 1st ed PHB and DMG I cannot find any reference to Gorgons blood blocking teleport. Can you cite your source on that one?
There is a reference point in the 2nd ed MM about Gorgons blood block astral and ethereal travel, but nothing about blocking teleport and not in 1st edition AD&D.The sheet of lead was mentioned in first and does block low level divination, and I am glad that Gygax put in game. He makes several allusions to "counter magic" spells, yet none were written for the game at the time. At least he mentioned it though. The problem I have with this (and the magic trumps all argument) is that the cost to use say - ESP, is much cheaper than the cost to create a lead-lined castle, but I'm glad that consideration was put into legacy or it wouldn't exist in the post WotC era. The problem of magic triumphs (use and cost wise vs the counter) is repeated throughout the game going on from 1st to PF.
Dimensional lock is meant to be a "portable" solution that you can use everywhere, with a casting time of a standard action, so something for adventurers, not something used to prevent access to a specific building forever.
In the 1st edition blocking ethereal travelers was even simpler, they were unable to pass through living things (microbes and bacterias weren't' considered) so a ivy covered building was accessible only through doors and windows, and those could be protected with other means.
BTW, there is a 6th level spell that block teleportation with a long duration: Forbiddance . It has its set of problems but it work.
Again, Forbiddance is a level higher than teleport and two spell levels higher than Dimension Door while is severely limited in what it could block (the alignment and ethos limitations). At least it is in the game, again though a 7th level caster can counter security unless he runs into this spell which needs to be cast by and 11th level caster - which goes to my point above that it's easier to do than to counter, in this case by 4 whole caster levels!
Also, cannot find any of your "blocks" to ethereal travelers listed anywhere in the 1st ed PHB or DMG
What in-game mechanics or abilities exist to counter invisibility,Dogs and anything with scent.
OK, so every shop designed by Paizo should have a guard dog that is left inside during the day (ours of operation) and at night. Again, you can suggest it which is great (and I can think of that as well) - but it's not part of the core game design philosophy as a counter, nor is it even mentioned as a concern in most of Paizo's products - which are written at as if most of these powers don't even exist in their own game world.
Just did a search of Burnt Offerings (1st AP RoTRL), there are three references to dogs in Sandpoint: a stray dog, a nobles hunting dog and a household pet. That's it. No guard dogs in shops, in fact no security systems detailed in any of the shops.
Checking the first official PF module, Crypt of the Everflame and the small town of Kassen - no reference to guard dogs, shop security - nothing.
As an experienced DM I can come up with several in-game counters to class abilities and spells, or write up custom magic items that do the trick, or security specific spells (not used by adventures but maybe by people living in cities), but this module was designed for new, novice players and DMs in mind. No mention of use of powers in town or the consequence of use/abuse - nothing.
I believe the Ultimate Campaign does touch on a few issues, namely using charm person when trying to make purchases. Good effort - for one spell and one specific subject.
Each non-combat spell/magic item/ability should have a write-up like this imo.
Caster level check against the DC of the lock with a +10 bonusImpressive at low levels, but as his level increase a Rogue is better than knock. Level +10 against Disable device +3 (class skill) + dexterity + 2 (Masterwork tools). At fist level the rogue can have the same bonus of the wizard with dex 20. And he can take 20 on the skill check.Knock don't disable traps and is a limited resource and so on.
And it doesn't require a skill investment, or 100gp in tools and is much faster at opening locks than a Rogue would get open via mundane means (1 round, 2 locks).
My point wasn't to debate knock vs. a rogues ability to pick locks, but to show the ease of use and impact on the world. Locks can be picked, yeah - got that. So in addition to worrying about common thieves, shopkeepers now need to worry about every amateur caster with knock on their spell list (with no skills or tools needed beyond the spell). And all the written worlds and core systems don't care or acknowledge that. That's my problem.The fact that the spell Knock steps on a core Rogue core ability is another discussion in another thread about incredibly bad rule systems (d20 gaming, etc). You didn't counter my argument, you just exposed that fact that there are other classes besides thieves who have access to 1 round (faster than Rogue), no-skill, no-tool, lock picking. And the world ignores it.
Magic can be countered, if needed.
As it stands, most of the spells are written for adventuring and as such, counters are not at the forefront of design or even considered in the rules. Yet those same adventures (and others like them) persist in a living world where all these powers have an impact. This is a terri-bad world design consideration on the part of more than a few generations of game writers.
And to clarify - I'm not against your (or others) suggested counters - whatever works for your game is great since the devs left us with nothing. It would be nice though if game devs took these powers into consideration when writing the rest of their core rules, rules about towns and cities, use of magic, equipment, counters, laws, etc, etc, too many damn "etc" to count.
Drachasor, if all these things you claim are true, why is the world still such a s*** place to live in?
I would argue the same in reverse -- if all of what you say is true, how have we made such amazing progress?
I tend to assume people in my game world are much like people in the real world.
(On a tangential note, I think both character death and character resurrection should be based on storyline, rather than math.)I like the Death Flag rule for such things.
Interesting as ever TOZ.
Drachasor, if all these things you claim are true, why is the world still such a s*** place to live in?I would argue the same in reverse -- if all of what you say is true, how have we made such amazing progress?
I tend to assume people in my game world are much like people in the real world.
We don't have to fight rampaging orc hordes, undead armies, elder evil dragons or actual demons from hell.
That helps a lot.
Also, why in Iomedaes name are people saying Golarion is "medieval"? Golarion, and every other setting I can think of, are a hodgepodge of eras, moslty medievalish with a big helping of reniassance, at least one place stuck on Rome or Greece, Vikings up north, feudal Japan and medieval China in the east and sometimes Wild West.
Why is it stuck in medieval times? Well... It's not!
The problem with assuming rulers would automatically suppress magical advancements is that it assumes rulers who are "Bwaahahaha oppress the peasants" levels of Stupid Evil. That is rulers who are too busy being evil to think in terms of their own self interest. Self interest such as...
"So why should I pay you good gold for your food manufactury? My peons grow all the food they need."
"Well that's the problem right there, isn't it? Look at those fields out there- 9/10s of the land has to be used to grow food for the farmers. In essence most of your land is being used to grow peasants. But with this, that land could be put to use growing items for sale- grapes for wine, wheat for whiskey, cotton and linen, and so on. Crops that could make money for YOU. And you could take peasants away from the farms, train them for other highly profitable tasks, like mining, weaving, making armor and weapons, in case somebody wanted to attack that annoying baron down the road.Did I mention that this baby can feed an army without the need for foraging?"
"That may be so, but why would I want to buy the Altar of Curing?"
"Well at any one time, 1/50th of your peasants are too sick to work, and an equal number are I'll enough that it devastates their efficiency. Which costs you profit. But with this, instead of losing money, you can charge them and get them back to work. And it will prevent an army from being afflicted by disease while on the March or during a seige.
Go ahead and take your time. Think about it. Of course when I talked to Baron Downtheroad last month, he was really impressed. HE ordered two..."
And that's the thing. Maybe the majority of rulers are Chaotic Stupid Fighters with 7 Intelligence. But there's going to be a few smarter or more desperate ones, maybe situated in poor lands who are looking for some edge against their neighbors. And they will begin to out compete their neighbors, who will start looking for how they can get an edge of their own. It all snowballs from there. After all, there's a reason that nobody remembers the real-life rulers who cried "I say thee nay! My fiefdom will never have windmills!"
The best thing of all is it doesn't take high level characters or tons of gold to pull this off- a 5th level cleric or 6th level bard with 7500 gold could make a use-activated portable altar of healing. The same SIM could make a Create Food and Water altar- though I recommend the deluxe model with included prestidigitation to flavor the food.
All it takes is a few rulers who are more greedy or ambitious than they are paranoid, and the revolution is on. And the explanations as to why it would never happen are incredibly contrived.
Some thoughts here.
* No priest will sell powerfull divine power for money. The people should deserve being raised according to the beliefs of the god of the priest.
Sure there are material component but the cost for such powerfull divine power cannot be put into money, although a new cathedral will, as well as certain priviledges for the clergy and the 2nd oldest son becoming a priest as well...
Ergo yes rich people can get a lot of stuff but they will pay the price!
Magic food traps, there is a dutch proverb saying that a peasant wont eat what he doesnt know.
I think there will be a lot of riotting a civil unrest if people are fed with soylent green.
I think that economics will be different for weatlthy powerfull people and normal peasants. While a powerfull rich person will donate lots of money to a reaseach hospital cause he or she has a desease and most of the time they wont notice the loss of money..
Ergo gaining high level magic is politics, if you know the right people you might get what you need
Ostensibly the empyreal lord Bharnarol exists to stop most cheese tactics.
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To all those suggesting auto-resetting spell traps: they're against the trap rules.
Reset
A reset element is the set of conditions under which a trap becomes ready to trigger again. Resetting a trap usually takes only a minute or so. For a trap with a more difficult reset method, you should set the time and labor required.No Reset: Short of completely rebuilding the trap, there's no way to trigger it more than once. Spell traps have no reset element.
Repair: To get the trap functioning again, you must repair it. Repairing a mechanical trap requires a Craft (traps) check against a DC equal to the one for building it. The cost for raw materials is one-fifth of the trap's original market price. To calculate how long it takes to fix a trap, use the same calculations you would for building it, but use the cost of the raw materials required for repair in place of the market price.
Manual: Resetting the trap requires someone to move the parts back into place. This is the kind of reset element most mechanical traps have.
Automatic: The trap resets itself, either immediately or after a timed interval.
bolding mine
The world isn't over populated becasue for every quick fix there is even bigger hammer to break it up again.
Take child hunger, sounds easy to just create food and water right? That works for a time till the local gangs catch and start sending in the rank and file kids to bring them food stuff which they sell for profit and hunger continues. Take the kind, someone beheaded him for reason. You can be quite sure court politics and back room deals will keep that king dead so someone new ascends the throne. Curing disease probably does occur and it's probably the only reason disease doesn't wipe out more of the population.
As for why it not overpopulated. Lots of reasons. One reason monsters. Dragons eat people. Vampires eat people, oozes eat people and the list goes on. So much danger I'm amazed there is a population at all.
Darigaaz, go further down and they have spell traps with reset elements and there's a table that has pricing for spell traps that reset.
Perhaps you should read, none of those magic traps have a reset.