Just remember the distance in your teleport becomes a BIG factor if you misjump. (Your GM IS having you roll your mis-jaunte check each time you cast that spell, right?) So if you're teleporting from say hundreds of miles away, that could mean you appear a LONG distance out to sea if that spell goes off target. (How IS your swim check, Joe?) There are a fair number of wizards whose careers ended at 9th level, because they forgot to take into account that little detail.
Unless said Wizard is dumb enough to not study the area he's teleporting to, it's not likely to be an issue very often.
And, as Gustavo said, Overland Flight being such a common daily buff because of its duration means that at 9th level, if you're traveling the maximum distance possible for you (900 miles) you can travel ~70-75% of the max distance you can roll off course.
So IF you roll a 98/99, and IF you roll ~75+, and IF you're put in the middle of a ocean in the first place, it's not a huge issue.
The people traveling WITH him might be f*%&ed, but not the Wizard.
I prefer spontanious because it requires less bookeeping, encourages more thematic choices in spells that say something about the caster as a person, and also specifically because the delayed spell growth rates extends the game's 'sweet spot' by another level or two.
I prefer spontanious because it requires less bookeeping, encourages more thematic choices in spells that say something about the caster as a person, and also specifically because the delayed spell growth rates extends the game's 'sweet spot' by another level or two.
I disagree with the bolded portion here. I feel that wizards, while lacking the baked-in theme of a bloodline, are actually more flavorful. Their greater number of spells in no way reduces their ability to be thematic, and there are plenty of different spellcasters in fiction who seem more like wizards than sorcerers.
Wizards as prepared casters make magic feel deeper, more mysterious, more... arcane. I appreciate the flavor that accompanies them, the erudite academia. Now, a sorcerer is in no way precluded from being a wizened sage locked away in a dusty library; it just doesn't serve their flavor terribly well.
Which is why I like Sorcerers, actually. I don't particularly like the idea of the guy who somehow studied hard enough in school to make reality his b&&~@.
It doesn't bother me enough to say I hate the class or begrudge its existence, but I don't want to play it.
I like the guy who rolls out of bed and says "I AM magic, watch this."
Though I'll give you a free shot, thought of a certain way, "I can cast magic because my Mom/Dad f%$+ed a Dragon/Orc/Fey/Librarian" is just as silly.
I am seeing a lot of people here who prefer spontaneous casters for bookkeeping reasons. I have to admit that this is a big draw for me too. You do have to think a little differently when designing a sorcerer than you can with wizards.
I also think that with bloodlines Paizo added a lot more to the Sorcerer class than they did with the Wizard class (though they did give wizards some love). The selection of bloodlines makes a lot of things much more interesting for the sorcerer, as opposed to the 3.5 sorcerer who was rather dull.
When you first set out to build a sorcerer it can seem a bit intimidating to limit yourself to so few spells. One of the great things about wizards is the variety of tricks they have. It is hard to force yourself to limit yourself to a small variety of spells when the spell list has a lot of spells that sound really cool but are too situational for a sorcerer.
But spontaneous casters need to remember that buying a scroll doesn't cost a lot more than scribing a spell into a spellbook and the money you save on spellbooks you can put into scrolls that you will only use once.
I think the one thing that bugs me about spontaneous casters though is the late entry to spell levels. At 5th level a wizard gets 3rd level spells and learns two spells for free. The sorcerer doesn't get his 3rd level slots until 6th level and at that point only knows one 3rd level spell; the wizard knows at least 4 at that point.
The reason is that prepared magic does not make any sense at all. And is basically exclusive to D&D. In no other kind of fiction does magic work that way. Even the one novel series that D&D originally tried to emulate was actually different, as far as I know. Prepared magic simply should not exist. It's the one really big complaint I have with every edition of D&D.
I never did read the Jack Vance books that the original "memorization" D&D system was allegedly based on, so I can't comment, but obviously the system won't be identical to the system in a book since game mechanics must be built and be balanced.
Roger Zelazny's Amber series used a magic system that was similar, though it did not require spellbooks. Merlin (not the classic Merlin) was the main character of the second series and was a magician who would "hang" his spells in advance of using them. Essentially he was performing most of the act of casting the spell but leaving out the final component, which allowed him to quickly access the spell in the future. In short, the act of preparing (or "hanging") the spell is the actual casting of the spell, which must be done under safe and controlled conditions. After that only a few words and gestures complete the procedure. I like to think of D&D wizards as working in these terms.
As a result, in my games I add a rule that allows wizards to attempt to cast a spell as they know using an unprepared slot a full-round action by making a DC 20 + (3 x spell level) spellcraft check. If they succeed they can cast whatever they like of known spells of that level; if they fail they lose the slot and must roll a concentration check or cause a misfire. The end result is that once a caster reaches around level 13 or so they can basically cast first level spells without preparation.
Peet
my swim is horrible, but that's because I'm a caster, so i don't use crappy skills.I can use alter self to transform into a lizard folk and gain swimming movement mode so the swimming skill is just a waste. Anyhow I'll be overland-flying when I teleport, so the point is moot. If I miscast I'll just use the arcane focus to cast teleport again, or use 15 minutes and a free slot to learn and cast it again. Beyond level 9 distance is meaninglessHowever, I understand that if I want exactly what I want, I stand a better chance making a trip to a large metropolis instead. Once you reach level 9, that trip is as easy as a standard action.Just remember the distance in your teleport becomes a BIG factor if you misjump. (Your GM IS having you roll your mis-jaunte check each time you cast that spell, right?) So if you're teleporting from say hundreds of miles away, that could mean you appear a LONG distance out to sea if that spell goes off target. (How IS your swim check, Joe?) There are a fair number of wizards whose careers ended at 9th level, because they forgot to take into account that little detail.Hopefully the weather will be nice, calm,and congenial while you're doing your spell study. And hopefully you won't misjump a second time when you cast that spell.
There actually was a Marvel Graphic Novel whose plot did revolve around the fact that the wizard half of the sword and sorcery pair kept going off target when she was teleporting them. Eventually they wound up walking home after years of travel.
The point I'm making is that many DM's make things too casual for spellcasters by ignoring certain facets of the spells they use. If casters overpower a game, this is probably the biggest reason they do.
if tge weather is not nice, you'll cast Tiny Hut for it's intended use for first time in history. To miscast teleport twoce happen like 1/2500 times. To miscast it 3 times (arxane focus+study) happens 1/125000. times. And when it happens, you finish so close to the city than overland flight cover for it.
If the casters aren't overpowered it's because the players aren't reading tge books.As said, at 9th lvl distance is meaningless. Wizards never arrive late. They arrive when they intend to.
However, I understand that if I want exactly what I want, I stand a better chance making a trip to a large metropolis instead. Once you reach level 9, that trip is as easy as a standard action.Just remember the distance in your teleport becomes a BIG factor if you misjump. (Your GM IS having you roll your mis-jaunte check each time you cast that spell, right?) So if you're teleporting from say hundreds of miles away, that could mean you appear a LONG distance out to sea if that spell goes off target. (How IS your swim check, Joe?) There are a fair number of wizards whose careers ended at 9th level, because they forgot to take into account that little detail.
<light hearted sarcasm>What? Teleport has risks?</light hearted sarcasm>
Nobody ever said there wasn't a risk attached to teleportation. The risk is minimal. By the time you get Teleport, you should be quite familiar with the "Metropolis" of your choice. A 97% chance to arrive on target is generally fine. The return trips are a bit more an issue. To make things easier, my wizard spends some time "Studying Carefully" and may even include an Arcane Mark so as to help visualize the area better. (mechanically the arcane mark means nothing, I just do it for RP reasons) So now I have a 94% chance on the return trip.
The only significant risk is teleporting in to an area I'm unfamiliar with. A scry to see where I want to go. A friend describing in great detail the area (rule stretcher, I know, but GM allowed it). This carries a 76% chance of success.
So far, I've been lucky on the more risky endeavors.
However, there is indeed risk, and I understand that. Your swim example would be fine in my case as my char has a bit of a survivalist background and has enough swim ranks to take 10 in rough waters (stormy would be another matter). Couple that with a spell of "Alter Self" to turn myself into Merfolk and I should be fine in the water. My particular wizard (spellbinder) can swap out another teleport and try again if need be.
My point is, finding a metropolis is not hard for a teleporting wizard. And yes, if the DM wants to screw with you, he can, but that's true for anyone.
*Edit - probably should have read the rest of the thread before replying.. others have already brought up these points ;)
Noireve, did you forget the part where wizards get 2 spells in their books FOR FREE every level up?
There's also the part where Wizards can also get bonus spells as a human.
I very much prefer prepared casters. My all time favorite class is the wizard specialized in either enchantment or necromancy.
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I very much prefer prepared casters. My all time favorite class is the wizard specialized in either enchantment or necromancy.
see i like the same type of focus, but i think sorcerers do it so much better. Cha as you caster stat makes your enchantments so hard to beat, while wizards have to use it as a secondary stat at best.
a high diplomacy, high intimidate, as well as opposed cha checks. all very useful for anyone charming things.So nothing that actually makes the sorcerers enchantments better then.
The opposed charisma check is kind'of big though. Winning that turns charm person into dominate person and dominate person into harbinger "assuming direct control"
I would suggest that improves Enchantments quite a bit.But has nothing to do with being a Cha-based caster like he said.
a Cha based caster is more dependant on Cha, and that Cha that augments their spells, augments their Cha checks for the following spells
Charm
Dominate
Suggestion
Planar Binding/Ally
Control Undead
UMD (use other classes goodies)
Gate
Pushing Summons to do things beyond their nature (such as a fire elemental entering a pool of water)
Social skills (which helps save slots spent charming)
an increased level or presence and assertion works wonders at most nobleman's parties. or for seducing the local baron to recover his incriminating ledger.
While these spells -should- be benefited by Charisma, by RAW they don't.
DominateSuggestion
Planar Ally
Control Undead
Gate
I think you should read the spells again. They all have a charisma check.
I cannot even begin to conceive the confusion of ideas that would lead to such a statement.
i love wiz and am was not a fan of soc in 3.5 that being said i like the blood lines that soc now has in pathfinder it really help to make it a class to it self
that being said i love wiz all the spell you can get at your finger tips
soc just kills me with the small spells list you can cast from i have seen two may soc take all fire spell and self buff only to find that were attacking fire giants or something it just seem to easy to box your self in to a bad spell list
i know this is not a problem for vet players but so many new player pick soc and pick bad spells like the guy who took magi armor and shield at fist level with his soc
He may have meant Planar Binding (not Ally), which has this text:
Once there, the outsider can pit its spell resistance as a check against the caster’s level, attempt to flee via dimensional travel, or attempt to overcome the spell by imposing its spiritual presence with a Charisma check (DC 15 + 1/2 the caster’s level + the caster’s Charisma modifier)...You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature's Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward.
Could you quote the part of dominate and suggestion that relies on Cha checks for me?
"" It's that non existent part where I mis-remembered something. Maybe I'm thinking 3.5?
Past couple of post, I have been getting rather acquainted with the taste of my foot.
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Couple points for sorcs: First, this feat.
Versatile Spontaneity
You made a good name for yourself in the Pathfinder Society in part because you knew how to prepare for the challenges before you, even if your natural magical abilities lend themselves less to preparation and more to spontaneity.
Prerequisites: Int 13 or Wis 13 (see Special), ability to spontaneously cast 2nd-level spells.
Benefit: When you regain spell slots at the start of the day, you may opt to prepare one spell you don’t know in place of a daily spell slot 1 level higher than the prepared spell’s level. To do so, you must have access to the selected spell on a scroll or in a spellbook, and the spell must be on your spell list (even if it is not one of your spells known). This process takes 10 minutes per spell level of the selected spell. You can cast the selected spell a single time, expending the spell slot as though it were a known spell being cast by you. Preparing a spell in this manner expends a scroll but not a spellbook. A spell prepared in this way is considered its actual level rather than the level of the spell slot expended. You can apply metamagic feats to the spell as normal, as long as the spell’s actual level plus the increases from metamagic feats is 1 level lower than the highest-level spell you can cast. For example, a 12th-level sorcerer with this feat, a scroll of fireball, and the Empower Spell metamagic feat could prepare an empowered fireball spell in her 6th-level spell slot.
Special: If you spontaneously cast arcane spells, you must have an Intelligence score of at least 13 to take this feat. If you spontaneously cast divine spells, you must have a Wisdom score of at least 13 to take this feat. If you have both arcane and divine spellcasting classes, you can use this feat to prepare a spell using a given class’s spell slot as long as you meet the associated ability score prerequisite.
Pathfinder Player Companion: Pathfinder Society Primer is set for a July release, so preorder your copy today to ensure that you can start using the great character options within at the start of Pathfinder Society Organized Play’s Year of the Demon, which launches at Gen Con Indy on August 15.
==Aelryinth
(Summary: Sorcs can get spellbooks and prep spells for all that wizardly downtime flexibility).
Here's the spell power ala 'power points' comparison between sorc, wizard and sorceror.
It doesn't end well for wizards...the amount of spell slots every sorceror gets are generally more then enough to compensate for being a level behind.
Laid out starkly like this in terms of raw power, it's easy to see why sorcs SHOULD be a level behind a wizard...they just have so much more then can do over the course of a day.
Spell Power
CLev 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 011 012 013 014 015 016 017 018 019 020
Sorc 004 005 006 015 018 032 037 058 065 092 101 130 145 179 192 237 252 314 331 361
Wizd 002 003 007 010 017 022 031 040 052 064 079 090 112 125 146 167 191 226 242 271
Spec 003 004 010 013 023 028 041 050 067 079 100 111 140 153 182 203 236 271 287 316
SinM 004 005 013 016 029 034 051 060 082 094 121 132 168 181 218 242 281 316 332 361
The Wizard has more spell levels/day then a Sorc at level 3…and that's it. They end up with 25% less spell levels/day then a sorceror. Sheer number of spell slots means sorcs should be trying to blow spell slots frequently just to use them up...Quicken and swift spells are a sorc's friends.
The Specialist fares somewhat better. They are ahead at levels 3, 5, 7 and 9…but then the sheer amount of spells and bonus spells castable by sorcs is more then their +1/level can catch up to, and they fall behind, finishing about halfway between sorcs and wizards.
A Thassilonian Sin Magic Mage would finish with EXACTLY the same number of spell/day as a sorceror, but would be ahead or tied for almost all levels. Probably a wee bit overdone, even lacking two or three schools.
==Aelryinth
REPOSTING THIS:
Spells Known by Level, Sorc, FC Benefit, Arcane Bloodline, Human
2
2
3 +Blood1 +1/ =4/
3 1 +1/ +2/ = 5/1
4 2 +Blood2 +2/ +3/1 = 7/3
4 2 1 +2/1 +3/2 = 7/4/1
5 3 2 +Blood3 +2/2 +3/3/1 = 8/6/2
5 3 2 1 +2/2/1 +3/3/2 = 8/6/4/1
5 4 3 2 + +Blood4 +Arcana (4th) +2/2/2 +3/3/3/2 = 8/7/6/4
5 4 3 2 1 +2/2/2/1 +3/3/3/3 = 8/7/6/5/1
5 5 4 3 2 +Blood5 +2/2/2/2 +3/3/3/4/1 = 8/8/7/7/3
5 5 4 3 2 1 +2/2/2/2/1 +3/3/3/4/2 = 8/8/7/7/4/1
5 5 4 4 3 2 +Blood6 (+Arcana 6th) +2/2/2/2/2 +3/3/3/4/3/2 = 8/8/7/8/6/4
5 5 4 4 3 2 1 +2/2/2/2/2/1 +3/3/3/4/3/3 = 8/8/7/8/6/5/1
5 5 4 4 4 3 2 +Blood7 +2/2/2/2/2/2 +3/3/3/4/3/4/1 = 8/8/7/8/6/7/3
5 5 4 4 4 3 2 1 +2/2/2/2/2/2/1 +3/3/3/4/3/4/2 = 8/8/7/8/6/7/4/1
5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 +Blood8+Arcana (8th) +2/2/2/2/2/2/2 +3/3/3/4/3/4/3/2 = 8/8/7/8/6/7/6/4
5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1 +2/2/2/2/2/2/1 +3/3/3/4/3/4/3/3 =8/8/7/8/6/7/6/5/1
5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 +Blood 9 +2/2/2/2/2/2/2 +3/3/3/4/3/4/3/4/1 =8/8/7/8/6/7/6/7/3
5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 +2/2/2/2/2/2/3 +3/3/3/4/3/4/3/4/1 =8/8/7/8/6/7/6/8/4
Grand totals and analysis.
0) We’re ignoring cantrips, but note that sorcs get a ton more cantrips at all levels, available all the time.
1) Start with 2 spells known. No recourse, no bonuses. This is…bad. 2 Spells Known.
2) Look, sorc gains NOTHING at this level. Yay. Still 2 SK
3) Ah, look, Bloodline spell, and a bonus for the level. This is where the wizard gets his level 2, so the sorc is behind the curve. 4 SK.
4) Finally, bonus spells, and we can start using FC bonus for level 1 spells. 6 SK
5) SK is starting serious accrual now. We jump to 10 SK.
6) 12 SK, 3rd level spells
7) 16 SK
8) 19 SK, 4th level spells
9) 25 SK
10) 27 SK, 5th level spells
11) 33 SK
12) 35 SK, 6th level spells, and LOOK WHAT HAPPENS…the progression to 5 SK/level known BREAKS. Instead of all spells moving to 5/level, mid level spells top at 4!!!
13) 41 SK
14) 43 SK, 7th level spells
15) 47 SK
16) 49 SK, 8th level spells….and the SECOND break occurs. High level spells known stop at 3!!!
17) 54 SK
18) 56 SK and 9th level spells
19) 60 SK
20) 62 SK
The comparison to a wizard is harder because it is ABILITY SCORE DEPENDENT. Basically, the Wizard closes the gap with spells known (in memory) with his high Int…but much of that Int is spread across levels.
For purposes of this illustration, I’m going to go with the following:
Starting Int 16 + 2 Bonus = 18 (no, I’m not starting at an 18.) +1/1/1/1 at appropriate levels.
4) +1 level bonus = 19
5) +2 Int toy = 21 +2/1/1/1/1
8) +1 level bonus = 22 +2/2/1/1/1/1
10) +4 Int bonus toy = 24 +2/2/2/1/1/1/1
12) +1 level bonus = 25
13) +6 Int toy = 27 +2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1
16) +1 level bonus = 28 +3/2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1
18) +5 Inherent bonus = 33 +3/3/3/2/2/2/2/1/1
20)+1 level bonus = 34 Int. +3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2/1
yes, you can argue he gets a +6 toy sooner. I’m going by the APs where the spellcasters have a +6 toy at 13, not 10th.
I’m going to use the Generalist table because of the off-school cost…if you want to claim versatility, you must claim all schools, and if you memorize an off-school spell, you’re not any better then a generalist.
1) 1 +1/= 2/ =2
2) 2 3/ =3
3) 2/1 +1/1 3/2 =5
4) 3/2 4/3 =7
5) 3/2/1 +2/1/1 5/3/2 =10
6) 3/3/2 5/4/3 =12
7) 4/3/2/1 +2/1/1/1 6/4/3/2 =15
8) 4/3/3/2 +2/2/1/1 6/5/4/3 =18
9) 4/4/3/2/1 +2/2/1/1/1 6/6/4/3/2 =21
10) 4/4/3/3/2 +2/2/2/1/1 6/6/5/4/3 =24
11) 4/4/4/3/2/1 +2/2/2/1/1/1 6/6/6/4/3/2 =27
12) 4/4/4/3/3/2 6/6/6/4/4/3 =29
13) 4/4/4/4/3/2/1 +2/2/2/2/1/1/1 6/6/6/6/4/3/2 =33
14) 4/4/4/4/3/3/2 6/6/6/6/4/4/3 =35
15) 4/4/4/4/4/3/2/1 +2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1 6/6/6/6/5/4/3/2 =38
16) 4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2 +3/2/2/2/2/1/1/1 7/6/6/6/6/4/4/3 =41
17) 4/4/4/4/4/4/3/2/1 +3/2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1 7/6/6/6/6/5/4/3/2 =45
18) 4/4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2 +3/3/3/2/2/2/2/1/1 7/7/7/6/6/6/5/4/3 =51
19) 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/3/3 7/7/7/6/6/6/6/4/4 =53
20) 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4 +3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2/1 7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5 =57
Note: Unlike the sorc progression, the wizard progress carries through to ALL LEVELS, and receives a nice kick at level 20.
Note that a wizard is getting 36 spells from levels and 21 spells from INT!
Direct Comparison
2 2 4 6 10 12 16 19 25 27 33 35 41 43 47 49 54 56 60 62 is the Sorc, Human Arcane.
2 3 5 7 10 12 15 18 21 24 27 29 33 35 38 41 45 51 53 57 is the wizard, Human.
This number could be slightly borked if you allow 18 Int at level 1, which adds up to +3 spells by level 20, and means the sorcerer doesn’t draw ahead until level 10 or so.
Also keep in mind this is a mandate for ALL DIFFERENT SPELLS in memory. Wizards often spend two slots on repeats of one spells, something the sorc doesn’t have to do. Also note that if the wizard uses metamagic, it takes a spell slot. For a sorc, it changes nothing.
So, the only real advantage the wizard who claims ‘versatility over all’ is going to have is if they start with an 18 Int, and only then until around mid level. Now, if they DO want to gimp versatility, they can end up at 66 different spells in memory…but then they lose the versatility argument. Furthermore, said advantage could very well be Color Spray x 2, Web x 2, etc, which really isn’t a spell advantage at all.
=======
In the end, it depends on your choice. Wizards are certainly going to have more spells if they gimp themselves as rigid specialists. They are also certainly going to have more different spells in comparison to non-human casters who don’t use the FC option.
The sorcerer will still dominate in potential spells/day, especially as levels increase. This becomes important when Quicken spell comes into play…the wizard gives up versatility for speed, and the sorcerer gives up nothing.
As always, its tradeoffs and style of play. Certainly as a human sorceror, you’re not at any spell disadvantage except at the very lowest levels…levels where you are likely to spam key spells, anyways.
Oh, and as a sorc, you get tons more fun cantrips to use at all times!
J
==Aelryinth
Opposition Research
Wizards can have easy access to all schools except one, like enchantment.
Other Points for spontaneous casters:
There's two magic items widely quoted as hugely valuable to Sorcs, a Vest and something else. Anyone refer them?
Two, the ability to gain two extra spells Known for a sorc is FAR more powerful then two extra spells for a spell book. If you compare value in gold cost, the one is Pages of Spell Knowledge as a Favored Class bonus, and the other is...copying some extra spells.
Three, Pages of Spell Knowledge are more valuable then Pearls of Power. One gives more spellcasting choices, the other is a spam tool.
Four, The Versatile Spontaneity feat is considerably more powerful then Spell Specialization...one lets you prepare any spells and amass a spell book, and turn your higher level spell slots into other spells. The other lets you use ONE SPELL spontaneously.
Five, Spon casters get much more out of Metamagic, because it allows them to use their higher level spell slots for 'extra spells' without penalizing them or forcing them to know more magic. Indeed, Quicken Spell works much better for spon casters then prepared ones. If you're far enough back or going first, the fact you are not moving isn't going to hurt you, especially if it's by surprise (the best time to be trotting out that Intensified Maximized Dazing Fireball).
Given the current game environment, I'd lean towards a spon caster, and human. Just sounds like more fun. If they can take Heritage: Half-elf and play with Paragon Surge (maybe buy the spell with Human FC bonus for double injury!) that would just be too funny.
==Aelryinth
The discussion is sorcerers vs wizards and they both use planar binding.Thank you, Sherlock. You think maybe that's why I didn't reference Planar Ally?
But you did... I checked.
While these spells -should- be benefited by Charisma, by RAW they don't.
DominateSuggestion
Planar Ally
Control Undead
Gate
I think you should read the spells again. They all have a charisma check.
I cannot even begin to conceive the confusion of ideas that would lead to such a statement.
i meant both planar binding and planar ally
all of these spells require an opposed charisma check to influence the creature to do things against it's nature
it is a special tax of all spells that usurp control of a foe.
the charisma doesn't benefit the DC of the spell, but it does help you on the opposed charisma check. which benefits the spell.
Could you quote the part of dominate and suggestion that relies on Cha checks for me?And here's the descriptions for the other spells
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/planar-ally
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/control-undead
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gate
Marthkus, please indicate where a charisma check is required in these spells
But you did list those spells!
That is a list.
You made it.
The listing of that spell has been done!