Dude lvl 1 wizard is spamming Daze
So is a lvl 1 sorcerer...
Dude lvl 1 wizard is spamming Daze
So is a lvl 1 sorcerer...
Daze is mind affecting though
so acid splash helps against stuff like undead, plants, and the like, that can't be dazed.
I like... Alternative systems of casting.
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You're both wrong. You cast your magic missile then go straight to bed.
I like... Alternative systems of casting.
i really like psionics because i feel it is easier both on management and immersion, to account a mana pool than vancian spell slots.
You're both wrong. You cast your magic missile then go straight to bed.
why waste a higher level spell for an extra 1.5 damage?
daze or acid splash does just fine at level 1.
I like... Alternative systems of casting.
Like in the back of a Volkswagen?
You're both wrong. You cast your magic missile then go straight to bed.why waste a higher level spell for an extra 1.5 damage?
daze or acid splash does just fine at level 1.
Thanks TCG. That made me smile.
I live to serve. :-)
I like... Alternative systems of casting.i really like psionics because i feel it is easier both on management and immersion, to account a mana pool than vancian spell slots.
Aye, me too! but I need a DM who allows 3rd party before I can use psionics though. I prefer one with a recharge mechanic that isn't dependent on sleeping 8 hours personally, but I'd rather take psionics over the usual spont/prep.
Aye, me too! but I need a DM who allows 3rd party before I can use psionics though. I prefer one with a recharge mechanic that isn't dependent on sleeping 8 hours personally, but I'd rather take psionics over the usual spont/prep.I like... Alternative systems of casting.i really like psionics because i feel it is easier both on management and immersion, to account a mana pool than vancian spell slots.
I'm a fan of this myself. I really enjoyed the 3.5 version.
I'm a fan of this myself. I really enjoyed the 3.5 version.
Only got to use that one once. Made a warmind. None of my 3.5 GMs wanted psionics in their game because they thought they were overpowered. Talked about it last Friday at a game and one of them thought you could do 400d4 by raining crystal shards and blowing all your power points... He was kind of wrong.
I'm a fan of this myself. I really enjoyed the 3.5 version.Only got to use that one once. Made a warmind. None of my 3.5 GMs wanted psionics in their game because they thought they were overpowered. Talked about it last Friday at a game and one of them thought you could do 400d4 by raining crystal shards and blowing all your power points... He was kind of wrong.
I do recall it being overpowered. It's one of the reasons I enjoyed it. :-)
Sure you could do massive damage by blowing your points, but then you're "empty" for awhile and next to useless.
Words of power is a fun system that favors spont casters
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I like prepared casters better, especially clerics. I'm only considering full progression casters here; so clerics, druids, oracles, sorcerers, witches, and wizards. The biggest advantage for me is the ability to try out new spells when I find them, especially when Paizo releases a new book. Spontaneous casters struggle with that, and even witches and wizards have to pay for it. Between clerics and druids it's just a personal preference against druids.
a little update on the spontaneous casting druid- I got this through by the DM and we're pretty happy with the skeletal build I got now.
I'm especially fond of the following line:
(An entry of 0 on the table indicates that the cleric knows only his domain spells of that level, and the druid knows only the summon nature's ally spell of that level.)
Meaning that, unlike sorcerers, I reach my new spell level as prepared casting would, except only being able to cast SNA and domain spells on the first level I get my increased spell level.
Got myself a Craft Staff feat too, so I can start off with some nice utility spells to help out with.
p.s. on the other hand, I agreed to take a -4 penalty on my wildshape ability. Not that I was planning to WS much anyways (having totally dumped Str) >:3
psionics are more power full then wiz/soc in 3.5
1. they can by all rule's use any armor they want with no miss cast
2. there spell are just as powerful as a wiz if not more so see fireball/ then look at the psion spell Energy Burst that is close to it 40ft and you can pick if you want fire/ele/cold/Sonic
3. and last with most wiz spell you best spells are you highs/ with psion some of your best are your low spells which just keep getting better an you keep getting more of the higher you go you spell dc for your low level also go up as you put more in to them were the wiz stays the same
this being said pathfinder offers more to wiz/soc now then before as to help close this gap
i have played a psion in pathfinder an have came to this i was op.
what made me op was not the spell point as much as the fact that my ac was almost 40 at level 7 as i was in full plate as a caster.
then i could hold my own in close combat as well as the fighters(p.s. this was a test run to see how broken with little book work i could make the class and was ok by the GM)i also had the rogue skills from trap ranger.
my next game i am opening psionics with the house rule they must apply spell failure for armor that there class dose not give them use of with.
my hop is that this should bring them down to where the rest of the class are.
psionics are more power full then wiz/soc in 3.5
Dat grammah'. And no. Common misconception. My anecdotal evidence suggest otherwise. Also, stop mentioning houserules that are flamebait.
Anyways, so about them prepared and spontaneous?
Clearly spontaneous is the best. Every argument saying prepared casters are the best talks about the ways they can get access to spontaneous spells.
Clearly prepared is the best. Every argument saying spontaneous are the best talks about the ways they can get access to more spells.
Psionic abilities do not auto level.
A wizard takes a fireball. He's 10th level. He casts a 10d6 fireball.
A psion takes energy ball, 3rd level power (5 pp). He's 10th level. He casts a 5d6 Energy Ball (of whatever element he wants). If he wants to do 10d6 damage, he's got to spend another 5 PP to get what a spellcaster gets FOR FREE. And even if he gets a 'level raise'...it just raises the cap, he still has to pay for the extra damage with PP. The wizard just gets the bonus!
That's a downside to Psionics most people don't see. Psionics don't autoscale...you want longer/higher/harder effects, you spend more psp, akin to blowing higher level spell slots, for an effect the wizard just gets naturally.
==Aelryinth
Clearly spontaneous is the best. Every argument saying prepared casters are the best talks about the ways they can get access to spontaneous spells.
Clearly prepared is the best. Every argument saying spontaneous are the best talks about the ways they can get access to more spells.
+1/+1 best point ever on this
And you'll have blown a high level spell, and I'll have blown a few low level slots, to basically the same effect. I do have the slots to spare for low level spells, i.e. you're making me use a resource I have plenty of.
I was referring to the fact that wizards get their higher level spells earlier. So a 5th level Sorc spends his 5 2nd level spells on resist energy on himself and his 4 companions, leaving him without 2nd level spells, while the 5th level Wizard uses a single 3rd level communal spell to accomplish the same goal. I'll grant you the argument that at level 20, spamming those lower level spells isn't a big deal. But in typical gameplay, those lower levels where the Wizard has higher level spells makes all the difference.
And you have to have that spell MEMORIZED, or in your spellbook with your arcane bond willing to shuffle it out for you. I have my slots available all the time. If it gets dispelled on one of the people, guess what? I can put it right back up...even using higher level slots if I have to.
The ability to create scrolls does a lot to mitigate those issues with dispel coming up, but I agree, the sorc's ability to spam what they got is better for that scenario. (Although, I've been playing RPG's for probably 15 years and could probably count on one hand how many times dispel has been used against us as players)
I would also like to point out, that if a Spon caster has a spellbook, they can now pull the 1/day 'any spell I need' trick using their bonded item, no?
==Aelryinth
No. Arcane bond for sorc's works from their spells known. Spellbooks aren't part of their spells known.
Psionic abilities do not auto level.
A wizard takes a fireball. He's 10th level. He casts a 10d6 fireball.
A psion takes energy ball, 3rd level power (5 pp). He's 10th level. He casts a 5d6 Energy Ball (of whatever element he wants). If he wants to do 10d6 damage, he's got to spend another 5 PP to get what a spellcaster gets FOR FREE. And even if he gets a 'level raise'...it just raises the cap, he still has to pay for the extra damage with PP. The wizard just gets the bonus!
That's a downside to Psionics most people don't see. Psionics don't autoscale...you want longer/higher/harder effects, you spend more psp, akin to blowing higher level spell slots, for an effect the wizard just gets naturally.
==Aelryinth
you are right that it dose not go up but when you put point in to it you make the dc of the spell go up as well so wiz cast 10d6 fire 20ft dc 20
stat 18 3rdlevel spell spell evo and greater spell evo
so fip side
10point out of let say like 60 is a lot but you get 10d6 let make ele wich give you +2dc +1 dc for every 2 point you put in to it for a told of +4 to the dc of 24 if we are using the same feat and stats
so wiz dc20 vs. ps dc 24
look yes you can burn throw your point fast but you spells are better in a lot of ways. i don't want to get into im sure there are many a posting on this out there
there is one class i do think is under power when it come to psions that is mind blade
ps to mrsin "stop mentioning houserules that are flamebait". my rule on armor and psions was not meant to be this i just feel any full non divine caster should not walk around if full-plate be it wiz or psions
if we did the fighters would have even more to complain about
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And you'll have blown a high level spell, and I'll have blown a few low level slots, to basically the same effect. I do have the slots to spare for low level spells, i.e. you're making me use a resource I have plenty of.I was referring to the fact that wizards get their higher level spells earlier. So a 5th level Sorc spends his 5 2nd level spells on resist energy on himself and his 4 companions, leaving him without 2nd level spells, while the 5th level Wizard uses a single 3rd level communal spell to accomplish the same goal. I'll grant you the argument that at level 20, spamming those lower level spells isn't a big deal. But in typical gameplay, those lower levels where the Wizard has higher level spells makes all the difference.
And the communal spell last 1/5 of the sorcerer spells. Sometime that don't make difference, sometime it make a lot of difference.
Communal spells aren't a so much better than spamming multiple low level spells.
there is no empirical test for superiority between the two. There simply is too much context and variation according to play-style.
I definitely agree with this. In the end, the bottom line is that you should play the one you think will be more fun.
There's two magic items widely quoted as hugely valuable to Sorcs, a Vest and something else. Anyone refer them?
Mnemonic Vestment is I think one of the ones you are thinking of. It's a must-have for higher level sorcs.
The sorceror's robe is not very good - if you have a 1st-level bloodline power that lets you throw an energy bolt you can use it to add that damage to some other spell that you are casting. Not a big deal.
The Robe of Arcane Heritage increases your level by 4 for the purpose of bloodline powers. It depends on what your bloodline is but that's pretty good.
Two, the ability to gain two extra spells Known for a sorc is FAR more powerful then two extra spells for a spell book. If you compare value in gold cost, the one is Pages of Spell Knowledge as a Favored Class bonus, and the other is...copying some extra spells.
You have me confused here... are you talking about the human favoured class bonus? Because that's one spell, not two. It's also a lower level than your highest level spell. The thing with wizards though is that they can just copy more spells into their book by paying a bit of cash. Sorcs can't do that.
Three, Pages of Spell Knowledge are more valuable then Pearls of Power. One gives more spellcasting choices, the other is a spam tool.
Which is why pearls of power don't work for sorcs - they are already spam tools! Basically the pearls and the pages both compensate a class by making it a bit more like the other class.
Four, The Versatile Spontaneity feat is considerably more powerful then Spell Specialization...one lets you prepare any spells and amass a spell book, and turn your higher level spell slots into other spells. The other lets you use ONE SPELL spontaneously.
I think you mean Greater Spell Specialization here. And yeah, I'd agree generally except of course that what both these feats are doing is making the class a bit more like the opposite class.
I'm not a big fan of versatile spontaneity though because it takes higher level spell slots to work. The Mnemonic Vestment does practically the same thing but uses the same level slot and doesn't take a feat.
Five, Spon casters get much more out of Metamagic,
I definitely agree with this statement; metamagic basically increases your spells known by adding metamagic versions of them.
because it allows them to use their higher level spell slots for 'extra spells'
Actually you can do this without any metamagic at all for any casting class. You always have the option to use a higher level spell slot than a spell's actual level for any spell, whether you prepare them or not. This is important to know for any caster.
Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.
Peet
Just a clarification on the spell slot thing:
Of course prepared casters can prepare a fireball or empowered fireball into a 5th level slot, if they are desperate for fireballs.
But the sorceror can do it on the spur of the moment, when he needs it right now. If the sorc wants to cast ten fireballs that day, he can DO IT RIGHT NOW. Effectively, sorcs can spam with slots of the same level of the spell...and ANY HIGHER LEVEL SLOTS.
That's a lot of spam on demand. Metamagic only makes the technique more powerful, because now you're actually benefiting from doing so.
WIth versatile spontaneity, spells in a spellbook are 'spells known.' They are not as effective as a wizard in memorizing and applying them, but they can do so.
Mnemonic Vest and Arcane Heritage robes I think are the ones being referred to.
The gold cost value comparison for extra spells Known for sorc and extra spells in Book for wizard was exactly that.
What's more precious, gold wise? Getting an extra spell known, or adding two more spells to your book?
The one is a Page of Spell Knowledge as a Trait. Minimum value, 1k for a first level spell. all the way up to 8th level spells for 64k each.
The other is...copy two more spells. Value, what 50-100 gp, all the way up to maybe 450 per spell?
==Aelryinth
Just a clarification on the spell slot thing:
Of course prepared casters can prepare a fireball or empowered fireball into a 5th level slot, if they are desperate for fireballs.
But the sorceror can do it on the spur of the moment, when he needs it right now. If the sorc wants to cast ten fireballs that day, he can DO IT RIGHT NOW. Effectively, sorcs can spam with slots of the same level of the spell...and ANY HIGHER LEVEL SLOTS.
That's a lot of spam on demand. Metamagic only makes the technique more powerful, because now you're actually benefiting from doing so.
If machine gun spam is your goal, nothing quite beats a sorc at it. I fully agree.
If precision sniping is more up your ally, then I would suggest the wizard.
WIth versatile spontaneity, spells in a spellbook are 'spells known.' They are not as effective as a wizard in memorizing and applying them, but they can do so.
Be very careful with how you use the term "Spells Known". This is what got you into trouble the last time. A spell in a Spellbook for a Sorc is not a "Spell Known" until he uses versatile spontaneity to prepare it. And even then it's a more limited spell known than what they get from their "Spells Known" table. I'm positive this confusion is what lead you to falsely believe that you could use arcane bond to cast spells from a spellbook as a sorc.
"Spells Known" for a Wizard is what's in his spellbook. "Spells Known" for a sorc is in his head (Call it his Mental Spellbook if it helps). It's a small but significant distinction.
*Edit - I should be more careful too. :| A spell from a spellbook prepared by a Sorc is a "spell prepared", not a "spell known".
What's more precious, gold wise? Getting an extra spell known, or adding two more spells to your book??
Not sure where you're going with this, trying to put cost on it and such, but I would probably say that an extra spell known for a sorc is more valuable than for a wizard due to the limits on the amount they can have.
Similar to supply and demand, the Wizard has a large supply of spells he can have which cheapens their value, while the sorc's supply of spells known is limited raising it's cost value.
And you'll have blown a high level spell, and I'll have blown a few low level slots, to basically the same effect. I do have the slots to spare for low level spells, i.e. you're making me use a resource I have plenty of.I was referring to the fact that wizards get their higher level spells earlier. So a 5th level Sorc spends his 5 2nd level spells on resist energy on himself and his 4 companions, leaving him without 2nd level spells, while the 5th level Wizard uses a single 3rd level communal spell to accomplish the same goal. I'll grant you the argument that at level 20, spamming those lower level spells isn't a big deal. But in typical gameplay, those lower levels where the Wizard has higher level spells makes all the difference.
And the communal spell last 1/5 of the sorcerer spells. Sometime that don't make difference, sometime it make a lot of difference.
Communal spells aren't a so much better than spamming multiple low level spells.
In a game of action economy, if you get jumped, I'd rather have a single communal than to waste 5 turns. But this is tangent from my point.
My point remains that in the scenario I mentioned, the Sorc, after wasting 5 turns to buff his friends, only has 1st level spells left, while the Wizard still has a 3rd , all his 2nd, and all his first.
This is what being a spell level behind the wizard can mean.
And you WILL notice this as you level. Heck even as a wizard I find myself occasionally saying "If only I were a level higher I'd have just the right spell for this!"
As a Sorc, I'd be saying "If only I were TWO levels higher".
It may not be a big deal to some, but to me it's a huge deal-breaker.
Some of the burden of not knowing a lot of spells of their (speaking of Sorcerers) highest level is mitigated by the fact that low level blasting spells (after being metamagicked) can do more damage than high level blasting spells (particularly since blasting spells are best used against minions).
Plus, consider the amazing versatility of spells like Shadow Evocation, Shadow Conjuration, Planar Binding (which benefits from the Sorcerer's CHA), etc.
That's where I give the Sorc's credit. The flexibility to add meta-magic on the fly is a nice feature.
I will have to say though, I've found that the things people want to metamagic the most is typically blast spells. And a wizard who knows his stuff can pull that off very well.
For me, that's Preferred Spell: Dragon's Breath (pick the blast of your choice really). Not only can I add metamagic on the fly for this spell, I can do it without increasing the cast time.
It's also pretty easy to know ahead of time exactly what spells I want to have with "reach" or which ones need "extended", and I can prepare them accordingly.
It's honestly never been a problem for me to have the right metamagic when I needed it. But, I agree the Sorc has the easier path for metamagic use.
But, when a Wizard memorizes a Maximized, Empowered Dragon's Breath, he's giving up a 9th lvl spell slot to do it and spending 4 feat slots. A Sorcerer retains his 9th lvl spell and only needs 2 feat slots.
Like I said.. the sorc can do the metamagic better. I'm just saying it's not as big a deal as it sounds.
I should also mention (as a tangent) that a wizard using preferred spell, most likely also has magical lineage for that spell (like I do with dragons breath), so the cost of metamagic is lessened a bit there.
It's a little easier to know what to "magical linage" when your build is built around a particular spell.
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And you'll have blown a high level spell, and I'll have blown a few low level slots, to basically the same effect. I do have the slots to spare for low level spells, i.e. you're making me use a resource I have plenty of.I was referring to the fact that wizards get their higher level spells earlier. So a 5th level Sorc spends his 5 2nd level spells on resist energy on himself and his 4 companions, leaving him without 2nd level spells, while the 5th level Wizard uses a single 3rd level communal spell to accomplish the same goal. I'll grant you the argument that at level 20, spamming those lower level spells isn't a big deal. But in typical gameplay, those lower levels where the Wizard has higher level spells makes all the difference.
And the communal spell last 1/5 of the sorcerer spells. Sometime that don't make difference, sometime it make a lot of difference.
Communal spells aren't a so much better than spamming multiple low level spells.
In a game of action economy, if you get jumped, I'd rather have a single communal than to waste 5 turns. But this is tangent from my point.
My point remains that in the scenario I mentioned, the Sorc, after wasting 5 turns to buff his friends, only has 1st level spells left, while the Wizard still has a 3rd , all his 2nd, and all his first.
In a scenario where you need to have your spell last the wizard will to bur multiple casting of the communal spell to keep it running.
The advantage is situational, unless you always play with 15 minutes adventuring days.
Communal is good if you need a short duration, multiple casting of a lower level spell is good if you need a long term effect.
If the party doesn't play well, they deserve to be instant gibbed. Call it an object lesson. In my party, we've made mistakes and the GM pulled no punches. We had to work hard to pull ourselves out of the hole we dug for ourselves. At the end, we had a sense of accomplishment that we would not have had if the GM was pulling punches.
I disagree.
I mean, your free to your opinion and playstyle, but some of the people I play with wouldn't like it and neither would I.
Yes, words have definitions. Since my copy of the game is written in English, here's the English definition of 'bloodline', "a sequence of direct ancestors especially in a pedigree". http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bloodline
That is the definition for bloodline, a general noun.
That is not the definition for Bloodline, a specific proper noun.
I would hope that you're intelligent enough to see the difference and are just messing with me.
When one person or company uses their own idiosyncratic definitions, it causes confusion.
Only in you, apparently. Most people recognize that every fictional setting or game ruleset (as well as any company really, in whatever business) defines its own terms, and accept this as fact and are not confused by it in the slightest.
That's why if I tell you to go mow my yard and I mean I'm going to send you a gift, you have no idea what I mean.
Except that's not what's going on here. They're telling you what a Bloodline (a specific new term) is, and directly defining it for you.
It's really more like if I told you to go fetch the Boatwrights, explaining that they are my neighbors and I need to give them something, and you proceed to go find me a bunch of random ship builders because it was "confusing".
And you'll have blown a high level spell, and I'll have blown a few low level slots, to basically the same effect. I do have the slots to spare for low level spells, i.e. you're making me use a resource I have plenty of.I was referring to the fact that wizards get their higher level spells earlier. So a 5th level Sorc spends his 5 2nd level spells on resist energy on himself and his 4 companions, leaving him without 2nd level spells, while the 5th level Wizard uses a single 3rd level communal spell to accomplish the same goal. I'll grant you the argument that at level 20, spamming those lower level spells isn't a big deal. But in typical gameplay, those lower levels where the Wizard has higher level spells makes all the difference.
And the communal spell last 1/5 of the sorcerer spells. Sometime that don't make difference, sometime it make a lot of difference.
Communal spells aren't a so much better than spamming multiple low level spells.
In a game of action economy, if you get jumped, I'd rather have a single communal than to waste 5 turns. But this is tangent from my point.
My point remains that in the scenario I mentioned, the Sorc, after wasting 5 turns to buff his friends, only has 1st level spells left, while the Wizard still has a 3rd , all his 2nd, and all his first.
In a scenario where you need to have your spell last the wizard will to bur multiple casting of the communal spell to keep it running.
The advantage is situational, unless you always play with 15 minutes adventuring days.
Communal is good if you need a short duration, multiple casting of a lower level spell is good if you need a long term effect.
Let's look at it from a different perspective.
If the level 5 sorc is spending 5 rounds to buff his friends with resist energy, the reason has to be that he expects to face that damage type within 50 minutes. He knows whats coming and is planning for it.
If we know what we're up against, the wizard just needs to wait a little bit longer to put up the buff. If he waits too long it may cost him 1 action in combat, but at least he got it up.
The 15min adventuring day meme doesn't apply here.
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Now, from the other side of the coin, If neither the sorc or wizard know to expect it, the Sorc spends 5 rounds of combat buffing, while the wizard spends 1 (either spell or arcane bond if he didn't prepare it)
Either way, for a wizard, it has always come down to knowing what you're up against. A well prepared wizard beats a sorc hands down.
Double the feat cost and giving up a 9th lvl slot sounds like a big deal to me.But, when a Wizard memorizes a Maximized, Empowered Dragon's Breath, he's giving up a 9th lvl spell slot to do it and spending 4 feat slots. A Sorcerer retains his 9th lvl spell and only needs 2 feat slots.Like I said.. the sorc can do the metamagic better. I'm just saying it's not as big a deal as it sounds.
A sorc has to give up the same 9th level slot if they wish to cast a maximized empowered dragon's breath, so while it sounds menacing when you say it, it's meaningless to the comparison here.
To basically do what a sorc can but better (standard action) with my chosen spell, while still maintaining my versatility edge in spells known is worth the 2 measly feats, IMO (I have some to spare, so why not)