Prepared with Spontaneous Casting feats (Preferred Spell and Greater Spell Specialization.)
2 feats that make it into my wizard builds most of the time. As you typically only need 1 or 2 spells to blast effectively on occasions you need to.
And I agree with the oracle vs cleric. The oracle sacrifices to many spells to be a true substitute for a cleric.
For the people trying to use the "oh well wizards know so much more spells than a sorcerer" game should remember that:
1) The wizard needs to find said scrolls or spellbooks. He is not a cleric, he does not magically know every spell of that level. Heck in a regular game is it not uncommon to see the wizard and sorcerer have about the same amount of spells. Especially if your game doesn't happen to have a Magic-Mart around every street corner. Oh and on top of that you are kind of depenedent on the GM giving you the RIGHT scrolls. If you end up find a bunch of scrolls for Sepia Snake Sigil and Alarm and things of that sort then you are even more gimped than the sorcerer. At least the sorcerer can pick his spells without being depenedent on finding them as random loot.
and
2)He needs to spend gold and time to write spells into his spellbook. While the cost may seem inconsequetial (0-5gp, 1-10, 2-40, 3-90, 4-160, 5-250, 6-360, 7-490, 8-640, 9-810) but they add up to alot over time, especially to get the amount of spells to be able to cast more than a Human Sorcerer. Additionally you need to take into account that wizards barely get any spells from leveling. Every level he gets 2 spells. Oh, and of course, as mentioned previously, a wizard needs to hope he even finds the scroll he is looking for to start with.
Now to show that sorcerer's don't have quite the lack of spells people seem to think they have just look at a human sorcerer:
If you are a human sorcerer (because human is still the best race xD) with the arcane bloodline you would get a total of 20 bonus spells due to race and 3 bonus spells due to bloodline (or 4 if you pick the bonded item over the familiar). This is not including your bonus spells from the bloodline it self (which is another 9). Oh, and alot of the spells on the Arcane bloodline happen to be pretty useful spells anyway, (Limited Wish is nice, Dispel Magic is very handy, Overland Flgiht is also cool). So all in all, you could effectively take just about any spell outside the very obscure spells (Who uses Mage's Private Sanctum?).
Yes, the wizard MAY know more spells than you (depends if the GM has been generous with the scrolls/spellbooks lying around) but while is burning all his gold copying spells to his spellbook (which he should be doing, I know more than a few GMs that actually don't seem to know that adding spells to spellbooks cost gold)the sorcerer is getting all these spells for free, allowing him to use his money on much better things, like Ioun Stones. Additionally, the Wizard still has less spells-per-day than a Sorcerer AND has to prepare certain slots with certain spells, where as the human sorcerer will most likely have the spell for the situation handy any time (and if he doesn't that is what having a high CHA and UMD is for).
As for the argument of "well INT is better than CHA" you are forgetting that the Sorcerer can actually use INT or WIS if you pick the Sage wildblooded bloodline or the Celestial's Wildblooded bloodline (i forgot the name of it). If you pick sage to use INT you lose your familiar in exchange for a "magic Missile" ability (which really sucks) and lose the Arcana that increases DC by 1 for metamagic affected spells but you instead use INT instead of CHA for spells and abilities. This is in addition to having the ability to metamagic without increasing casting time (which makes the arcane/sage Sorcerer the best metamagic expert) and giving a school a +2 DC that stacks with Spell Focus.
Oh and if you REALLY want that extra spell (say there is a certain spell you really want but don't have enough slots) you can always take the feat Extra Arcana to give you a extra spell known of your highest level OR 2 extra spells of level atleast 1 lower than your highest level. Between that, the human favored class bonus, the Arcane bloodline ability, AND the arcane bloodline bonus spells you generally cover just about every base other than the nice to have spells.
Oh additonally you can save on spells by taking advantage of the Shadow X spells (evocation/conjuration/shades). I would go into detail about how the match actually ends up that the shadow spells do about the same amount damage as their regular counterparts (and can allow some really fun things like a resiliancy sphere that the opponent can't cast out of but you can cast into or that an archer can shoot out of but nothing can hit the archer)but my post is getting rather long.
So yeah, you were saying?
Noireve, did you forget the part where wizards get 2 spells in their books FOR FREE every level up?
Especially if your game doesn't happen to have a Magic-Mart around every street corner.
It's been my experience that the majority of people who use the term "Magic-Mart" on these forums have a particularly large bias against magic in general that would make playing a wizard neigh impossible.
In general, I suggest to others to avoid these types of GM's if possible, if not.. roll a fighter, because that's what they want you to do.
Especially if your game doesn't happen to have a Magic-Mart around every street corner.It's been my experience that the majority of people who use the term "Magic-Mart" on these forums have a particularly large bias against magic in general that would make playing a wizard neigh impossible.
In general, I suggest to others to avoid these types of GM's if possible, if not.. roll a fighter, because that's what they want you to do.
Actually, fighters are more punished without magic-marts. Wizards don't need magic-marts, they are a walking magic mart. Just need Craft Woundreous Item.
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I really tend to prefer prepared casters, especially if my race doesn't give me extra spells as an option for favored class bonuses. It's painful sometimes how few spells a sorcerer actually knows at 10th level, and it really isn't as easy to be prepared for every occasion as some would make it out to be.
Plus, sometimes it's fun to completely re-organize and switch out your prepared spells and play a completely different type of character for no better reason than to shake things up.
Our group always shudders a bit when my wizard is having a Transformation kind of day.....
Actually, fighters are more punished without magic-marts. Wizards don't need magic-marts, they are a walking magic mart. Just need Craft Woundreous Item.Especially if your game doesn't happen to have a Magic-Mart around every street corner.It's been my experience that the majority of people who use the term "Magic-Mart" on these forums have a particularly large bias against magic in general that would make playing a wizard neigh impossible.
In general, I suggest to others to avoid these types of GM's if possible, if not.. roll a fighter, because that's what they want you to do.
My point is, someone going through all the trouble to restrict access to the things your char needs is not someone I would generally want to play with. Sure it'd be fun as a one time campaign, but it would get old very quick. A GM like that is likely allow you to take the CWI but then do everything in his power to make it impossible for you to use it.
My point is, someone going through all the trouble to restrict access to the things your char needs is not someone I would generally want to play with. Sure it'd be fun as a one time campaign, but it would get old very quick. A GM like that is likely allow you to take the CWI but then do everything in his power to make it impossible for you to use it.Actually, fighters are more punished without magic-marts. Wizards don't need magic-marts, they are a walking magic mart. Just need Craft Woundreous Item.Especially if your game doesn't happen to have a Magic-Mart around every street corner.It's been my experience that the majority of people who use the term "Magic-Mart" on these forums have a particularly large bias against magic in general that would make playing a wizard neigh impossible.
In general, I suggest to others to avoid these types of GM's if possible, if not.. roll a fighter, because that's what they want you to do.
Not necessarily. What I am talking about is when you are in a small town or village and there just happens to be a place to go an buy magical goods and spells. At that point, then yes the GM is being a bit rediculous. To keep with roleplaying, a small village would NOT have a Wizards tower convienently placed in the middle of it (some exceptions do apply). Now if the GM is severly restricting Magical Items and spells in a large city, then yes the GM is beinga bit unreasonable, but alot of times of times you only go to the big city a few times (unless your campaign involves running around trying to snoop out this secret orginization or investigate some catacombs or what have you). Alot of adventures tend to take you away from the comfort of the city into the wilderness. So yes, in most games that don't have Magic-mart acting like McDonalds 2.0, getting their spells will be a pain.
And guess what? That is kinda one of the things that is supposed to BALANCE the wizard. They have to FIND their spell. And the GM has to be logical with his loot. Remember, D&D/Pathfinder is not Elder Scrolls. You do not find random scrolls shoved up the butt of a dire rat. The times you will find a scroll is if you killed a spellcaster, happen to be in the spellcaster's tower/crypt/dungeon, or anything else that involves spellcasters. If I were to find a scroll of fireball on the big hulking barbarian I just killed I would questioning why the barbarian had a scroll he could never use.
Noireve, did you forget the part where wizards get 2 spells in their books FOR FREE every level up?
How about you read again. I mentioned they get 2 spells for every level. But that is barely anything. The Wizard's biggest advantage is having LOTS of spells known, which costs money. 42 Spells known by level 20 if you are depending on just leveling is kinda sad. Even the Sorcerer knows more spells than you at that point.
I prefer Spontaneous Arcane and Prepared Divine casting.
Oh and even if the wizard finds all these scrolls, he still needs to spend money on adding them scrolls to his spellbook. So, unless the GM has been throwing money at the party left and right, the wizard is going to have to decide to get better gear or get more spells, where as the human sorcerer is getting all his spells for free and all of his gold is dedicated to getting gear. So in regular game, the sorcerer will still end up on top with sheer amount of gear/wealth in addition to his spells.
Now, if the GM IS throwing money at the party AND having mage's stores become more common than a starbucks in manhattan, then yes the Wizard is going to obnoxiously powerful but that is because the GMs made a world TAILORED to the wizard.
So again, in practical, actual world type enviornment and not just theorycraft/optomized wizard world/dungeon crawl the human sorcerer actually ends up coming out on top.
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Oh and even if the wizard finds all these scrolls, he still needs to spend money on adding them scrolls to his spellbook. So, unless the GM has been throwing money at the party left and right, the wizard is going to have to decide to get better gear or get more spells, where as the human sorcerer is getting all his spells for free and all of his gold is dedicated to getting gear. So in regular game, the sorcerer will still end up on top with sheer amount of gear/wealth in addition to his spells.
Now, if the GM IS throwing money at the party AND having mage's stores become more common than a starbucks in manhattan, then yes the Wizard is going to obnoxiously powerful but that is because the GMs made a world TAILORED to the wizard.
So again, in practical, actual world type enviornment and not just theorycraft/optomized wizard world/dungeon crawl the human sorcerer actually ends up coming out on top.
Cost and Methods of Learning Wizard Spells in Pathfinder RPG
The changes in Pathfinder RPG vs. 3.5 are subtle, but sometimes, they are quite important and can dramatically affect the game.
One of the most important additions to Pathfinder is the new ability granted to all Wizards, the Arcane Bonded Item. This ability is in chosen in substitution to choosing to have a familiar. Instead of a familiar, the Wizard gets the ability to empower any item he chooses as his bonded item. This arcane bond grants to the wizard the ability to spontaneously cast any spell he or she knows, once per day, without preparing the spell. The arcane bond therefore confers on the Wizard the flexibility of the Sorceror’s spontaneous spell casting ability once per day, while retaining the Wizard class’ intrinsic ability to learn an unlimited number of spells.
In order to get this ability, the Wizard foregoes the option to take a familiar. The cost and time to replace either a bonded item or a familiar is the same (200 gp per level of the Wizard, after 1 week has passed since its loss). However, unlike a familiar, a bonded item is very difficult to destroy during combat. Moreover, if a GM is the sort to attempt a theft of a bonded item, the GM is equally likely to steal or destroy the Wizard’s spellbook – an act to which all Wizards are vulnerable. In the end, the familiar is far more likely to be slain during the course of normal play than a bonded item is likely to be destroyed during combat. One is alive, can be attacked and must save vs. area affect spells, while the bonded item never is attacked and rarely ever has to save vs any attack. When it does have to make a save, the roll required for the item to survive is very low.
The arcane bond cannot be used to cast a spell spontaneously if it is from an opposed school of magic. Accordingly, specialist Wizards sacrifice some of their spontaneous spellcasting ability for the bonuses they otherwise get from specializing. A Universalist Wizard, however, has the ability to cast every Wizard spell in the game spontaneously as long as he or she knows the spell.
There are also some subtle changes in the cost of learning spells from ver 3.5 of the game as well. In 3.5 of the game, the underlying mechanic of copying spells from a spellbook was that another wizard would charge 50 gp per spell level as the cost to copy a spell from one book into another. This resulted in the unintended mathematical consequence that a Wizard had to pay 50 gp to copy a first level spell from another book, but could instead pay only 25 gp to copy the spell from (and destroy) a scroll!
In ver. 3.5, the material cost of inscribing a spell into a spellbook was 100 gp x the level of the spell no matter how the spell was learned. This was a particularly burdensome cost for low level spellcasters.
Pathfinder RPG changed the underlying math by adding a new table to the game on page 219 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook for the material cost of copying a spell. The math underlying this table is simple to remember: material cost = spell level squared x 10.
While there are comparative reductions in the cost of learning spells at every level of the game as between 3.5 and PFRPG, the reductions in the cost of learning new spells is especially pronounced in the early part of the game. In 3.5, it cost 150 gold pieces to copy an existing 1st level spell from one spellbook into your own, or 125 gp if you used (and destroyed) a scroll to learn and copy the spell, whereas, in Pathfinder RPG, it costs only 15 gold to do this (30 if you use a scroll).
The comparative costs of learning and copying spells into a Spellbook are noted below.
Code:
Method and Cost of Learning Spells – 3.5 vs. PFRPGSp. Cost (3.5/PF) Access to (3.5/PF) Material (3.5/PF)
Lvl. of Scroll Copy Spell Cost1 25 50/5 100/10
2 150 100/20 200/40
3 375 150/45 300/90
4 700 200/80 400/160
5 1125 250/125 500/250
6 1650 300/180 600/360
7 2275 350/245 700/490
8 3000 400/320 800/640
9 3825 450/405 900/810
As is evident, attempting to learn a spell from a scroll is always a poor allocation of resources in either Pathfinder or ver 3.5 of the game past 1st level, and the sub-optimal nature of that choice is underscored in Pathfinder RPG where it is always a poor choice to make at any time.Unfortunately, the lesson that arcane casters learned early on in ver 3.5 was that spells were learned best by finding a scroll and copying it into their spellbook. While learning a spell via scroll was only cheaper at 1st level, it was a bad habit to learn in terms of the underlying mechanics of the game and -- worse – reinforced the rules used in 1E/2E which had, in fact, been changed in ver 3.xx. A lot of players and DMs continued to use learning spells via scroll as the presumptive mechanic throughout the game at all levels, making the cost of learning new spells especially burdensome for Wizards in 3.5 in many gaming groups. This was never the intent in ver 3.5, but as that was the method for learning spells in earlier incarnations of the game, many players and DMs kept using it. Anecdotal evidence from forums and message boards indicates that it is STILL being used in Pathfinder RPG, more than a decade after the rules for spell acquisition were changed in ver 3.xx. Old habits die hard.
In Pathfinder RPG, because of the introduction of the arcane bond, there is an exceptionally strong incentive for all Wizards to learn as many spells as possible. In contrast, in version 3.5, all that learning a great number of spells did was to expand the possible choices a Wizard had to prepare in a given day (and it allowed the Wizard to make a scroll of that spell, too). However, in Pathfinder RPG, because of the Arcane Bond, any spell may be cast once a day even if not prepared as long as it is known. This new ability provides the Wizard with the ability to use rare and highly situational utility spells without having to prepare or pay the cost of creating a scroll to do so. That makes the bonded item an exceptionally powerful class ability – among the most powerful of all class abilities present in the entire game.
Can you Learn Every Wizard Spell in the GAME?
So, given that the benefit to learning a huge number of spells is now present within Pathfinder RPG in a way that wasn’t present in ver 3.5, is it possible for a Universalist Wizard to learn all of the spells in the game?
Well, if your GM refuses to use the default rules in Pathfinder and clings to the presumptions of 1E/2E by insisting that Wizards learn spells by copying the spell from a scroll (thereby destroying the scroll in the process) the answer is: it’s not really economically feasible.
Learning Spells From Scrolls is a BAD Idea
The below chart indicates what the cost of learning all of the spells in the game are, based upon the books that are in use at your table. These tables show the cost of learning all of the Wizard spells in the game for the Core, Core + APG, Core + APG +Ultimate Magic, and finally, Core + APG + Ultimate Magic + Ultimate Combat. As a yardstick to measure how reasonable a strategy it is to learn all available spells, the suggested wealth by level is indicated in the final two columns.
As you will quickly see, to pursue a Universalist Wizard build which attempts to learn all spells in the game (depending on the books in use at your table) is highly impractical – if not impossible - if your GM insists upon Wizards learning spells via scroll. Under the Core Rules, the total cost to copy all of the available spells in the game into standard spell books when using scrolls as your copy source exceeds the suggested wealth by level of the Wizard after 8th level – and does so far earlier when additional hardcover rulebooks are in use.
Code:
Cost of Learning all Spells (Core, 371 spells)
via Scroll Copied into Std Spell Books (18 vols.)Sp # of Scroll+ Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls Copy $ Pages Cost by Level1 40 15 40 600 600 2 3000
2 51 160 142 8160 8760 4 10500
3 43 415 271 17845 26605 6 33000
4 42 790 439 33180 59785 8 62000
5 47 1285 674 60395 120180 10 82000
6 47 1800 956 84600 204780 12 108000
7 40 2635 1236 105400 310180 14 185000
8 37 3490 1532 129130 439310 16 315000
9 24 4635 1748 111240 550550 18 888000Cost of Learning all Spells (Core/APG, 463 spells)
via Scroll Copied into Std Spell Books (22 vols.)Sp # of Scroll+ Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls Copy $ Pages Cost by Level1 57 15 57 855 855 2 3000
2 64 160 185 10240 11095 4 10500
3 58 415 359 24070 35165 6 33000
4 54 790 575 42660 77825 8 62000
5 56 1285 855 71960 149785 10 82000
6 54 1800 1179 97200 246985 12 108000
7 48 2635 1515 126480 373465 14 185000
8 41 3490 1843 143090 516555 16 315000
9 31 4635 2122 143685 660240 18 888000Cost of Learning all Spells (Core/APG/UM, 622 spells)
via Scroll Copied into Std Spell Books (28 vols.)Sp # of Scroll+ Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls Copy $ Pages Cost by Level1 76 30 76 1140 1140 2 3000
2 91 160 258 14560 15700 4 10500
3 82 415 504 34030 49730 6 33000
4 77 790 812 60830 110560 8 62000
5 76 1285 1192 97660 208220 10 82000
6 69 1800 1606 124200 332420 12 108000
7 64 2635 2054 168640 501060 14 185000
8 46 3490 2422 160540 661600 16 315000
9 41 4635 2791 190035 851635 18 888000Cost of Learning all Spells, all books (717 spells)
via Scroll Copied into Std Spell Books (31 vols.)Sp # of Scroll+ Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls Copy $ Pages Cost by Level1 95 30 95 2850 2850 2 3000
2 123 160 341 19680 22530 4 10500
3 99 415 638 41085 63615 6 33000
4 88 790 990 69520 133135 8 62000
5 83 1285 1405 106655 239790 10 82000
6 72 1800 1837 129600 369390 12 108000
7 67 2635 2306 176545 545935 14 185000
8 47 3490 2682 164030 709965 16 315000
9 43 4635 3069 199305 909270 18 888000Note: All of the tables in this article exclude: 1) the beneficial effect of spells that all Wizards get at the start of the game; and 2) also excludes the beneficial effect of learning 2 free new spells upon a Wizard attaining a new level.
Now, in fairness, it is highly irregular to include one of the fundamental assumptions of the game (wealth by level) for comparative purposes and to then ignore another fundamental assumption of the game (Wizards primarily learn spells by copying a spell from another spellbook, not by copying from and destroying a scroll). If a GM makes a change to the default assumption present in Pathfinder RPG by requiring new spells be learned from a scroll, that GM has made a fundamental change to Pathfinder RPG that cripples the intended power level of the Wizard Class.
Indeed, when viewed from the PC’s perspective, preferring to learn Wizard spells by scroll instead of copying them from an existing spell book can only be described as so sub-optimal a choice as to be insane.
How so you may ask? Well, take a look at the comparative cost of learning an arcane spell by paying for access to copy a spell from a spellbook to another Wizard (or more likely, an organization like the Arcanamirium) – and then paying the material cost to copy the spell into your spellbook:
Code:
Cost of Learning all Spells (Core, 371 spells)
via Spellbook Copied into Std Spell Books (18 vols.)Sp # of Access Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls +Copy$ Pages Cost by Level1 40 15 40 600 600 2 3000
2 51 60 142 3050 3650 4 10500
3 43 135 271 5805 9455 6 33000
4 42 240 439 10080 19535 8 62000
5 47 375 674 17625 37160 10 82000
6 47 540 956 25380 62540 12 108000
7 40 735 1236 29400 91940 14 185000
8 37 960 1532 35520 127460 16 315000
9 24 1215 1748 29160 156620 18 888000Cost of Learning all Spells (Core/APG, 463 spells)
via Spellbook Copied into Std Spell Books (22 vols.)Sp # of Access Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls +Copy$ Pages Cost by Level1 57 15 57 855 855 2 3000
2 64 60 185 3840 4695 4 10500
3 58 135 359 7830 12525 6 33000
4 54 240 575 12960 25485 8 62000
5 56 375 855 21000 46485 10 82000
6 54 540 1179 29160 75645 12 108000
7 48 735 1515 35280 110925 14 185000
8 41 960 1843 39360 150285 16 315000
9 31 1215 2122 37665 194285 18 888000Cost of Learning all Spells (Core/APG/UM, 622 sp)
via Spellbook Copied into Std Spell Books (28 vols.)Sp # of Access Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls +Copy$ Pages Cost by Level1 76 15 76 1140 1140 2 3000
2 91 60 258 5460 6600 4 10500
3 82 135 504 11070 17670 6 33000
4 77 240 812 18480 38015 8 62000
5 76 375 1192 28500 66515 10 82000
6 69 540 1606 37260 103775 12 108000
7 64 735 2054 47040 150815 14 185000
8 46 960 2422 44160 194975 16 315000
9 41 1215 2791 49815 244790 18 888000Cost of Learning all Spells, all books (717 spells)
via Spellbook Copied into Std Spell Books (31 vols.)Sp # of Access Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls +Copy$ Pages Cost by Level1 95 15 95 1425 1425 2 3000
2 123 60 341 7380 8805 4 10500
3 99 135 638 13365 22170 6 33000
4 88 240 990 21120 43290 8 62000
5 83 375 1405 31125 74415 10 82000
6 72 540 1837 38880 113295 12 108000
7 67 735 2306 49245 162540 14 185000
8 47 960 2682 45120 207660 16 315000
9 43 1215 3069 52245 259905 18 888000As you will note, once the default assumption for Arcane spell acquisition by a Wizard is applied, there is no point in time where the Wizard’s investment into learning spells exceeds the suggested Wealth by Level in the game. In most instances the Wizard has a comfortable margin left to spend on crafting magical gear if the Wizard pursues a “learn all spells” build.
Where can a Wizard go to learn all of these spells from existing spellbooks? In the world of Golarion, while there are many sources for spells across the world, one known source of spellbooks to copy are the Arcane Scriptoriums found within the Wise Quarter of Absalom. Between the tomes contained in the Arcanamirium and, to a lesser extent, the Forae Logos, access to all of the known arcane spells for copying may be had upon paying the above-noted fees. (This is exactly how it is presumed to work within the RAW which governs Pathfinder Society Organized Play. See, Pathfinder Chronicles: Guide to Absalom for more on the Arcanamirium and the Forae Logos).
Still, it’s admittedly quite expensive to do this. Isn’t there a better way?
The Blessed Book Will Lead The Way...
Yes, there is. The below chart reflects the impact of what as this analysis demonstrates, is the second most important spell in the game – namely, Secret Page. Why is Secret Page so important? Because this spell is the pre-requisite for creating the Wondrous item, Blessed Book.
Blessed Books are fundamentally important to any Wizard amassing a collection of spells. The description of this standard Wondrous Item, (known as Boccob’s Blessed Book in ver 3.5) quickly indicates why:
Blessed Book
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7th
Slot —; Price 12,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
DescriptionThis well-made tome is always of small size, typically no more than 12 inches tall, 8 inches wide, and 1 inch thick. All such books are durable, waterproof, bound with iron overlaid with silver, and locked.
A wizard can fill the 1,000 pages of a blessed book with spells without paying the material cost. This book is never found as randomly generated treasure with spells already inscribed in it.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, secret page; Cost 6,250 gpThe beneficial effect of a Blessed Book demonstrates that any PC Wizard who wants to learn a lot of spells should ensure the he or she can craft one. In order to do so, the Wizard should have an Int of 15 or higher, take Spellcraft every level until at least level 7 and should take Craft Wondrous Item as a feat by 7-8th level. Should a Wizard meet these pre-requisites (and almost all PC Wizards already have the Int stat and Spellcraft skill ranks by default, and most PC wizards will take Craft Wondrous Item at some point), there is no possibility of failure when constructing a Blessed Book over the course of a week while “taking ten”.
It is quickly evident that employing a Blessed Book as the default spellbook for all of one’s spells is vital to efficiently amassing any appreciable collection of spells in Pathfinder RPG. Not only does the material cost for copying a new spell get rolled into the blanket cost of creating a Blessed Book for the mere cost of 6,250 GP, but the number of pages in a Blessed Book (1,000 pages in a 1” thick volume) means that the Wizard’s spellbook library may be practically condensed into a 2, 3 or at most, a 4 volume collection that may be easily transported. (Note: employing Secret Chest to store one’s spellbooks -- and making a 2nd copy of each Blessed Book is still prudent and takes only half the time to copy it).
How much of a savings does the use of Blessed Books to record a spell library have on the Wizard class? It turns out, it has an enormous impact:
Code:Core using 2 Blessed Books (371 spells) = Savings of 85,610 gp vs Std Spell Book
Sp # of Access Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls +Copy$ Pages Cost by Level1 40 15 40 600 600 2 3000
2 51 60 142 3050 3650 4 10500
3 43 135 271 5805 9455 6 33000
4 42 80 439 9610* 19065 8 62000
5 47 125 674 5875 24940 10 82000
6 47 180 956 8460 33400 12 108000
7 40 245 1236 16050* 49450 14 185000
8 37 320 1532 11840 61290 16 315000
9 24 405 1748 9720 71010 18 888000* includes the cost of 6,250 gp to create a new Blessed Book
Core + APG using 3 Blessed Books (463 spells)
= Savings of 104,505 gp vs Std Spell BookSp # of Access Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls +Copy$ Pages Cost by Level1 57 15 57 855 855 2 3000
2 64 60 185 3840 4695 4 10500
3 58 135 359 7830 12525 6 33000
4 54 80 575 10570* 23095 8 62000
5 56 125 855 7000 30095 10 82000
6 54 180 1179 15970* 46065 12 108000
7 48 245 1515 11760 57855 14 185000
8 41 320 1843 13120 70975 16 315000
9 31 405 2122 18805* 89780 18 888000* includes the cost of 6,250 gp to create a new Blessed Book
Core + APG + UM using 3 Blessed Books (622 spells)
= Savings of 133,285 gp vs Std Spell BookSp # of Access Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls +Copy$ Pages Cost by Level1 76 15 76 1140 1140 2 3000
2 91 60 258 5460 6600 4 10500
3 82 135 504 11070 17670 6 33000
4 77 80 812 12410* 30080 8 62000
5 76 125 1192 15750* 45830 10 82000
6 69 180 1606 12420 58250 12 108000
7 64 245 2054 21930* 80180 14 185000
8 46 320 2422 14720 94900 16 315000
9 41 405 2791 16605 111505 18 888000* includes the cost of 6,250 gp to create a new Blessed Book
Core + APG + UM + UC using 4 Blessed Books (717 spells)
= Savings of 133,490 gp vs Std Spell BookSp # of Access Tot. # Cost Cum. Lvl Wealth
Lvl Spls +Copy$ Pages Cost by Level1 95 15 95 1425 1425 2 3000
2 123 60 341 7380 8805 4 10500
3 99 135 638 13365 22170 6 33000
4 88 80 990 13290* 35460 8 62000
5 83 125 1405 16625* 52085 10 82000
6 72 180 1837 12960 65045 12 108000
7 67 245 2306 22665* 87710 14 185000
8 47 320 2682 15040 102750 16 315000
9 43 405 3069 23665* 126415 18 888000* includes the cost of 6,250 gp to create a new Blessed Book
(Note: in the cost calculations in the above Blessed Book tables, the cost of learning new spells of any level was calculated at the cost of Access + Material cost until the first Blessed Book was constructed, as denoted by an asterisk, thereafter, only the cost of access + the cost of creating a Blessed Book is accounted for.)
From the costs taken to learn all spells via spell acquisition by scroll (909,270 gp) the cost of doing so by copying spells from spellbooks into a blessed book is reduced to 126,415 gp – a difference of more than a factor of 7!
One of the conclusions which flows from the above is that when it comes to learning Arcane spells, a Wizard is always better off selling the scroll for half its value and using that gold to purchase access + material costs of copying a spell. It is never wise for a Wizard to use the scroll itself to actually learn the spell unless absolutely necessary under the circumstances. The comparative economic benefit, assuming a sale at one-half retail value, breaks down as follows:
Code:Sp. ½ Value Cost of Access Cost of Access Only
Lvl. of Scroll + Material Cost (Blessed Book)1 12.5 15 5
2 75 60 20
3 187.5 135 45
4 350 240 80
5 562.5 375 125
6 825 540 180
7 1137.5 735 245
8 1500 960 320
9 1912.5 1215 405Time... Ain't On Your Side (No it isn't)
So what’s the downside of all of this? The one factor which is not reflected above is time. It takes one hour to attempt to learn a new spell and one hour per spell level to copy a new spell into a spell book. In this case, the number of pages required to record all spells is also the number of hours required to copy all spells. If all four hardcover volumes of Pathfinder RPG spells are in use at your table, it will take an Archmage about three months to learn every spell from all four books. It will then take a little more than a year (3,069 /8 =383 days, broken into 8 hour blocks of time), flat out, to record all of the spells in all four hardcover books, if he or she does nothing else for eight hours a day and is always successful in learning a spell on the first roll. Admittedly, if duplicating an entire spell book without any changes at all, the material cost is half (if there is any) and the time is also halved.
For those who are running Adventure Paths with significant downtime built into the AP (as is present in the Kingmaker AP), learning and copying spells into the Wizard’s spellbooks is a very good use of that Wizard’s “downtime”. It also reduces the free time for a Wizard to create magic items for him or herself as well as the rest of the party.
This is my favorite post breaking down the costs of Wizards learning spells.
It is not saying the wizard CANNOT as opposed to the question of "If you in the middle of the forest or in a backwater town trying find the Crypt of blaadablah or what have you would there reasonably be a place to learn spells?" The wizard cannot just spontaneously go "Oh! I just got a bunch of gold off this dead body! I wanna "spend it" on learning spells from thin air!" And unless the entire party wants to dilly dally off to one of the bigger cities that have scriptoriums (which I mentioned would be a place to logically have alot of spells to copy)then the wizard is going to have to wait to learn more spells. Additionally, as I said, the Wizard is still spend alot of money to learn what the human sorcerer gets for free. Additionally, there are VERY few spells that a human sorcerer would not know that have any real application majority of the time. All of the major player spells the human sorcerer would have access too. So the wizard is spending his money learning spells while the sorcerer is spending money on gear. Net outcome: The sorcerer will almost always be ahead on gear and still be equally competent (if not more so due to the ability to metamagic on the fly) when it comes to spells in combat. Again, certain things he may not know but thsoe certains thing will probably be covered by the cleric (best buffer in the game).
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And guess what? That is kinda one of the things that is supposed to BALANCE the wizard. They have to FIND their spell. And the GM has to be logical with his loot. Remember, D&D/Pathfinder is not Elder Scrolls. You do not find random scrolls shoved up the butt of a dire rat. The times you will find a scroll is if you killed a spellcaster, happen to be in the spellcaster's tower/crypt/dungeon, or anything else that involves spellcasters. If I were to find a scroll of fireball on the big hulking barbarian I just killed I would questioning why the barbarian had a scroll he could never use.
Those brown stains can give an hint ....
- * -
I think the whole wizard/sorcerer debate is very campaign dependent.
Let's say you are playing Curse of the Crimson throne. The 4th and 5th installment of the adventure are away from civilization and with some time pressure, so it isn't easy for a wizard to get new spells in the middle of the adventure or to have the time to copy them.
Council of thieves is mostly in an urban environment, so the wizard has easy access to new spells (I haven't played it, so I can be mistaken).
I feel that generally the sorcerer is better when when playing adventures with several fights in a row (the classical dungeon adventure, or storming a castle or several other options) while the wizard is better when you have a small number of fights in a day and time to prepare specifically for them.
The new sorcerer magic items will really help him there, as they allow him to learn temporarily a few new spells, specifically tailored for the problems he will need to overcome.
If the GM allow you access to the full range of those items, especially if he allow you to have and use more than one exemplar of the 1 a day use items most of the sorcerer limits are removed.
Why choose between the two? I'm with Half-Elf Oracle with Paragon Surge and Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) on this one.The delicious fun of spontaneous plus the "oh s~~& only one spell could save us now!" panic button of a super prepared Wizard. What's not to love (besides being stuck as a Half Elf)?
Isn't there a skill focus prerequisite you'd have to meet?
Isn't there a skill focus prerequisite you'd have to meet?Why choose between the two? I'm with Half-Elf Oracle with Paragon Surge and Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) on this one.The delicious fun of spontaneous plus the "oh s~~& only one spell could save us now!" panic button of a super prepared Wizard. What's not to love (besides being stuck as a Half Elf)?
Yep, so at least half elf would give you that by default, but if you really wanted to go all out Human with Focused Study and then the feat Racial Heritage would be the way to go... mmm Paragon Surge, 3 Skill Focus feats and the delicious extra spell known favored class bonus. Would cost an extra feat but would be so worth it in the long run.
...a little too minmaxed even for me though and you're talking to a guy who loves minmaxing.
For the people trying to use the "oh well wizards know so much more spells than a sorcerer" game should remember that:
1) The wizard needs to find said scrolls or spellbooks. He is not a cleric, he does not magically know every spell of that level. Heck in a regular game is it not uncommon to see the wizard and sorcerer have about the same amount of spells. Especially if your game doesn't happen to have a Magic-Mart around every street corner. Oh and on top of that you are kind of depenedent on the GM giving you the RIGHT scrolls. If you end up find a bunch of scrolls for Sepia Snake Sigil and Alarm and things of that sort then you are even more gimped than the sorcerer. At least the sorcerer can pick his spells without being depenedent on finding them as random loot.
Throughout his career, a wizard gets an automatic 44 free spells (level 1-9). This is more spells than the sorcerer can even know.
On top of this, any spell the wizard wants can be researched independently. So you don't need to find a book or scroll if you really want a spell.
And this is on top of whatever written magic is found in a campaign.
Spell selection should never be an issue for a Wizard unless the DM is a jerk. And if that's the case then there is nothing that any class could do.
Not necessarily. What I am talking about is when you are in a small town or village and there just happens to be a place to go an buy magical goods and spells. At that point, then yes the GM is being a bit rediculous. To keep with roleplaying, a small village would NOT have a Wizards tower convienently placed in the middle of it (some exceptions do apply). Now if the GM is severly restricting Magical Items and spells in a large city, then yes the GM is beinga bit unreasonable, but alot of times of times you only go to the big city a few times (unless your campaign involves running around trying to snoop out this secret orginization or investigate some catacombs or what have you). Alot of adventures tend to take you away from the comfort of the city into the wilderness. So yes, in most games that don't have Magic-mart acting like McDonalds 2.0, getting their spells will be a pain.
And guess what? That is kinda one of the things that is supposed to BALANCE the wizard. They have to FIND their spell. And the GM has to be logical with his loot. Remember, D&D/Pathfinder is not Elder Scrolls. You do not find random scrolls shoved up the butt of a dire rat. The times you will find a scroll is if you killed a spellcaster, happen to be in the spellcaster's tower/crypt/dungeon, or anything else that involves spellcasters. If I were to find a scroll of fireball on the big hulking barbarian I just killed I would questioning why the barbarian had a scroll he could never use.
What you just described is the mid-ground situation that I'm OK with. I don't expect to find high level spells in little po-dunk towns. And that is the very definition of "Magic-Mart". What I expect, is the rules followed per the book that uses town size as the determining factor as to what you can find. First level scrolls are one of those low cost items that can be found even in the smallest of communities.
However, I understand that if I want exactly what I want, I stand a better chance making a trip to a large metropolis instead. Once you reach level 9, that trip is as easy as a standard action.
My point is, someone going through all the trouble to restrict access to the things your char needs is not someone I would generally want to play with. Sure it'd be fun as a one time campaign, but it would get old very quick. A GM like that is likely allow you to take the CWI but then do everything in his power to make it impossible for you to use it.Actually, fighters are more punished without magic-marts. Wizards don't need magic-marts, they are a walking magic mart. Just need Craft Woundreous Item.Especially if your game doesn't happen to have a Magic-Mart around every street corner.It's been my experience that the majority of people who use the term "Magic-Mart" on these forums have a particularly large bias against magic in general that would make playing a wizard neigh impossible.
In general, I suggest to others to avoid these types of GM's if possible, if not.. roll a fighter, because that's what they want you to do.
Not necessarily. What I am talking about is when you are in a small town or village and there just happens to be a place to go an buy magical goods and spells. At that point, then yes the GM is being a bit rediculous. To keep with roleplaying, a small village would NOT have a Wizards tower convienently placed in the middle of it (some exceptions do apply). Now if the GM is severly restricting Magical Items and spells in a large city, then yes the GM is beinga bit unreasonable, but alot of times of times you only go to the big city a few times (unless your campaign involves running around trying to snoop out this secret orginization or investigate some catacombs or what have you). Alot of adventures tend to take you away from the comfort of the city into the wilderness. So yes, in most games that don't have Magic-mart acting like McDonalds 2.0, getting their spells will be a pain.
Well, in first place, the player does not need to go to a small village to buy scrolls, he can go to a big city. That's specially true once he hit lvel 9 and can teleport. At high level, my players are going shopping to the City of Brass, just because it's a better Bazaar. Also, by the rules, scrolls are damn easy to find anywhere and everywhere, because they are always below the Base Value of anyplace.
Even if you ignore the Base Value rule, the PC can get free spells from enemy spellcasters, through their spell books, and from spells they know. So yes, it's pretty easy for Wizards to have a ton of spells known
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I love my wizards. I love to plan ahead. It's like a logic problem. We are going into a crypt? Well that could mean undead I better pick these spells. Wait its the crypt of an elemental master? Wellthat changes everything! He was killed by a transdementional beast with tenticals and a thing for girls in sailor outfits? I have just the spell for that!
I also figure that in a casters day to day life the big blasty spells are pointless, but the utility spells are great. So in my imaginings on non-quest days a wizard can be full of useful spells while a sorcerer has a fireball in his pocket for no reason most of the time.
I like choices and making smart decisions that affect my chances of success or failure. Prepared casters give me more of that.
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i keep hearing these really flawed arguments about sorcerers and oracles, and how "they make better blasters". sure a sorcerer can lob fireballs 100 times, but they are cha based and REALLY shine in the "i control your ass"
aspect of combat. a sorcerer with a 20 cha, and diplomacy (half elf skill focus FTW) can make a level 1 spell charm person more powerful then a maximized/empowered enervation ray.
when i play my sorcerer, he stops encounters before they even start. using the serpent and undead bloodlines he can make litches and just about any creature his b!~!~ with a first or third level spell.
a good sorcerer has 3 control spells, 3 blast spells, 6 buff spells, and 3 OOC spells, by 9th level. you cant tell me that's not a well rounded spell caster.
i do like sorcerers more then wizards, and i like oracles more then clerics, but i cont say for sure that one is "more powerful". i can say that prepared casters are easier, then spontaneous, to power game.
With my oracle, I have some decent spells, but whenever I hit any random situation, I find myself resorting to a sling more often. With my druid that was less of an issue (and yes, I know that a big part of that was standard action spontaneous summon spells..still...)
Just a question. If your Oracle could shapeshift into a dire tiger, would it be using a sling?
My favorite caster class is wizard. My first proper character was a universalist wizard, and I had loads of fun with that character. Presently, in pathfinder, my favorite casting class would be a Wizard specialized in conjuration, likely in the devil-binding or teleportation school.
I prefer prepared casters over spontaneous casters, because I like being able to get hold of every spell. I like researching my own magic, and I like playing the long game. I am actually the worlds worst spontaneous and heroic hero. My usual playstyle will far more often involve killing the evil king and have the marriage declared null and void, than it will involve me heroically crashing through the window to stop the wedding. :)
-Nearyn
I used to prefer prep casters for versatility but after years of writing spell lists every game day, I have gotten carpel tunnel so its spontaneous all the way for me now.
awww :(
I suggest doing the following if you're a prep caster: Make maybe 5-7 default memorization lists.
Wilderness adventuring
City social
City combat
Infiltration
Combat
Dungeoneering
for instance, and, fill these lists with spells proper to the expected situations and conflicts. Then, you can use your default lists, or modify them slightly if you expect to need a certain spell that day.
saves alot of trouble, and retains the versatility.
-Nearyn
Spont for arcane
Prepared for divine
with the existence of umd i've decided i'm finally into spontaneous casters more than prepared for a change.
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So can a witch or wizard... The difference is the wizard will get more dominate person spells faster than the sorcerer. So while you've charmed someone I've dominated them.
The witch and wizard both only gain ONE less spell per level at higher ends and always have more high level magic than Sorcs. How does having extra low level magic help more than having a wider breath of spells on your list AND having more max level spells.
IMO this is the fallacy of the "prepared caters > spontaneous caster" group. its not schrodinger's spell list of "i have the right spell every time" its the "low level spells suck and you need to have 9th level spell to be powerful" other then a difference of 1 or 2 on the save dc, how is charming a badguy successfully worse then dominating them? i can RP a deesculation of violence by making my skill checks and maxing that level one spell. if i can take the litch out of the fight with a 1st level spell... why do i need to have 3rd level spells?
any spell your wizard can cast my sorcerer can cast from a scroll. so i can cast 3rd level spells at the same level you can, mine just costs money. and paragon surge, the most cheezy spell in paizo, lets me cary more "scrolls" then you as a sorcerer.
However, I understand that if I want exactly what I want, I stand a better chance making a trip to a large metropolis instead. Once you reach level 9, that trip is as easy as a standard action.Just remember the distance in your teleport becomes a BIG factor if you misjump. (Your GM IS having you roll your mis-jaunte check each time you cast that spell, right?) So if you're teleporting from say hundreds of miles away, that could mean you appear a LONG distance out to sea if that spell goes off target. (How IS your swim check, Joe?) There are a fair number of wizards whose careers ended at 9th level, because they forgot to take into account that little detail.
my swim is horrible, but that's because I'm a caster, so i don't use crappy skills.I can use alter self to transform into a lizard folk and gain swimming movement mode so the swimming skill is just a waste. Anyhow I'll be overland-flying when I teleport, so the point is moot. If I miscast I'll just use the arcane focus to cast teleport again, or use 15 minutes and a free slot to learn and cast it again. Beyond level 9 distance is meaningless