But a wizard or summoners do not summon a dire tiger, they summon a celestial/infernal dire tiger. Those have smite evil/good, which mean they ignore DR and add tgeir HD to damage.
Huh? Since when does the Celestial / Fiendish (not necessarily Infernal) / Resolute / Entropic template smite ignore DR? Last time I checked, bypassing DR was one of the perks of a Paladin's (or Hellknight's) smite, usable by Half-celestials or Half-fiends... none of which are summon-able by Summon Monster.
(Their summoms are actually the equivalet of extended quickened summons, but let's suppose they aren't).
Actually, a Quickened Summon Monster spell would take a Swift Action, not a Standard Action (which is what the Summoner's ability does).
Sure. And a summoner with 36 cha can cast 29 lvl 9 spells, including the summon IX SLA. (Their summoms are actually the equivalet of extended quickened summons, but let's suppose they aren't). They have less 7-8 slots, but they have more 9th lvk slots. Several summons can use spells as well, to fill the gap. You dont need to memorize charm monster or telekinesis whem you can summon vrocks and succubi as standard actionThe Succubus Charm Monster DC is 22, the Vrocks Telekinesis DC is 18. Neither of them are doing much to anything that might be considered a legitimate threat at high levels.
telekinesis have several uses beyond save DC. Moving your melee party 20 feet can become a full attack instead of a charge for example. And the succubi DC is strong when you first get it, and keep relevant becouse of numbers. 1d4+1 saves at 22 is mathemathically harder than 1 roll at DC 26-28. That's why persistent spell is good, even if you could use heighten spell for +3 DC for the same cost than Persistent
There seems to be some misunderstanding on how the tier system works.
Tier 2 classes aren't less powerful than tier 1, they just have fewer ways to break the game.
Summoners have no place in tier 1, they just don't have the versatility for it.
I don't understand the hate towards summoners, they aren't more powerful than tier 2/tier 1 classes.
What I do agree with, however, is that it is a class that really needs a rewrite, as the rules are rather poorly written.
But a wizard or summoners do not summon a dire tiger, they summon a celestial/infernal dire tiger. Those have smite evil/good, which mean they ignore DR and add tgeir HD to damage.Huh? Since when does the Celestial / Fiendish (not necessarily Infernal) / Resolute / Entropic template ignore DR? Last time I checked, bypassing DR was one of the perks of a Paladin's (or Hellknight's) smite, usable by Half-celestials or Half-fiends... none of which are summon-able by Summon Monster
as far as I know, since pathfinder came out.
(Their summoms are actually the equivalet of extended quickened summons, but let's suppose they aren't).Actually, a Quickened Summon Monster spell would take a Swift Action, not a Standard Action (which is what the Summoner's ability does).
yeah. And extend would only make it last 2 rounds/level instead of 10 rounds level. So it's a half-qquickened multiextended 9th level spell. Let's just supppse it's 9 level and keep moving
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Did that get said? Summoners have more versitility than any class in the game. I can replace your rogue, wizard, and fighter with 1 character. Heck, in mid-level I can actually summon healing creatures too, so there goes the cleric.
They are beyond tier 1; after level 4 they are tier 0, above even the mighty wizards. Sure, the wizards rejoin them around 15 or so; when they (like the summoner) have "I win"; but we shouldn't talk about high-level Pathfinder play too much. We're talking about the standard levels; level 1-3 summoners hold their own, but aren't overpowered; at 4 they have first access to haste and their eidilon starts to take over the fighters; at 8 they have completely overshadowed any melee (with or without their eidilon) and are the best buffers in the game. By 10, like most buffing casters, they have overland flight going during the adventuring day (1 level after the wizards admittingly); and should by now have bought a ring of invisibility. On top of that, because of high charisma, with the right traits they make an excellent "party face".
Their eidilons beat the pants off any fighter after around/about level 4. And around 11 even their eidilon pales in comparison to flooding the battlefield with Anklosaurs and declaring yourself "the winner".
And again, that's without taking into consideration the "banned for being overpowered in PFS" Master Summoner and Synthasist. And believe me, this was no mistake; it actually takes a LOT to get banned from PFS. Slumber Hex? Still allowed in PFS.
MMm. Wow. Now that drachador mebtion it, yes, the celestial smite evil and the half celestial smite evil aren't the same. It's my fault but I blame bad game design. :P
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.
In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.
In contrast...
Special Attacks smite evil 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against evil foes; smite persists until target is dead or the celestial creature rests).
No mentioning of DR. No mentioning of double damage an the first hit vs. certain targets. No AC bonus, either.
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No, it's not great; but it's there, and healing is generally an "out of combat" thing. Still, I'm never going to argue with the "throw in an Oracle of Life" option for when combat healing IS needed.
Can you tell me the situations that Summoners can't handle? You've mentioned they have great transportation spell; they also have access to the best battlefield control spells in create pit, grease, and such (and thanks to feat tax, can actually cast it with +1 DC); and great long-term buffs (heroism, admittingly this one is later than bards and wizards, but still useful).
The spells "Evolution Surge" and summon itself are versitile wildcards that could take you through most situations; but as stated they are also excellent diplomats for out-of combat, and a wide variety of their summons make excellent scouts (if their eidilon is not set up to do it themselves; most eidilons have stealth and perception at solid levels).
So again I ask... where is this "limitation" you speak of?
Can you tell me the situations that Summoners can't handle?
Fun fact; druids can get a new pet everyday for free and have 9th level spellcasting. Summoners have to wait until each level to make changes to their pet.Umm... Transmogrify, anyone?
Cool beans. You spent 1000gp, a 4th level spell, and wasted an hour of everyone's time rearranging evolutions.
Druids just need to wait 24 hours.
Fun fact; most summoners don't take that spell. There's usually soemthing better to take.
More than that if there is an evolution you need you have the Evolution Surge line of spels which are more like very versatile buffs.
pouncing smiting dire tigers ignore DR too. And even without a master summoner, you can have 1d3 of them smite-pounce, as a standard summon another 1d3 who instantly smite-pounce. That's roughly 1 gazillion damage. ThE summoner can standard-summon lantern archons too, AND he can summon succubus, or vrocks, or ghaele as well
You're missing the point. Others can do that too. It's not unique.
Your summon monster list is the same as everyone else's summon monster list.
Fun fact; most summoners don't take that spell. There's usually soemthing better to take.
They usually UMD it I've been told.
Anyways, CoDzilla was a monster. I don't think summoners are that bad, though their action economy is amazing. Standard action summons and essentially two people are two actions per turn and one of those is a caster. CoDzilla also was an idea unrelated to tiers. There is just a lot about them that make people cringe though. That action economy, their spell list, the pounce charger companion, and summon monster is a one trick pony with a lot of tricks, if that makes sense.
As to Tiers, Summoner and sorcerer can't be tier one. They aren't capable of literally doing anything like a prepared caster can(though there is some cheese to emulate it, but I've always though its best to push that to the side.) Mind you being Tier 2 doesn't mean you can't shatter the game into a billion pieces with nigh unlimited power, or that a character can't be overly effective, or that they can't be built wrong and be gosh awful.
Fun fact; most summoners don't take that spell. There's usually soemthing better to take.They usually UMD it I've been told.
Anyways, CoDzilla was a monster. I don't think summoners are that bad, though their action economy is amazing. Standard action summons and essentially two people are two actions per turn and one of those is a caster. CoDzilla also was an idea unrelated to tiers. There is just a lot about them that make people cringe though. That action economy, their spell list, the pounce charger companion, and summon monster is a one trick pony with a lot of tricks, if that makes sense.
As to Tiers, Summoner and sorcerer can't be tier one. They aren't capable of literally doing anything like a prepared caster can(though there is some cheese to emulate it, but I've always though its best to push that to the side.) Mind you being Tier 2 doesn't mean you can't shatter the game into a billion pieces with nigh unlimited power, or that a character can't be overly effective, or that they can't be built wrong and be gosh awful.
I dont know that I agree, what situation cant a certain summoner deal with? Can they exactly replicate what a wizard can do? No, but they can deal with the same variety of challenges, and do so with an action economy bonus and a lot less concern for the 15 minute adventure day then a wizard can.
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We forget that even the fearsome, mighty, and never truly defined RageLancePouncing AMBarbarian required a Synthasist Summoner (who can also pounce, probably for more damage :)) in order to make himself work.
It is true they lack the "Scry-or-die" option at high levels (once greater teleport is on line), but by then crystal balls are not out of the question. I restate that high-level campaigns are silly. And wizards can only have 1 contingancy, not a variety of them.
They can certainly make magic items and do conjurations to break economies; and hell teleport breaks economies if you want to get technical (find a missing gap in transportaion and move the item cheaper than any caravan can).
And for the "real" adventuring that actually happens in gaming, they do everything well; scout, diplomacize, fight, etc. The items you listed (equipping armies), while admittingly handy, doesn't happen in campaigns, and again requires those high levels that I even agreed wizards "also win".
I dont know that I agree, what situation cant a certain summoner deal with? Can they exactly replicate what a wizard can do? No, but they can deal with the same variety of challenges, and do so with an action economy bonus and a lot less concern for the 15 minute adventure day then a wizard can.
The one he didn't have the right spell for? He certainly can't scry and die or lover's pain someone. He may not have dominate monster. He may not have teleport. He may not have spells that have lots of uses, or that one exact one for the exact moment. A wizard may not have one on that day, but the next day he can get it.
Does that make sense? That's why prepared is tier one, sponteous tier 2. I can make a sorcerer that is extremely prepared, has a varied spell list, and can blow the game to pieces, but he is not able to literally have a spell for every situation.
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(Their summoms are actually the equivalet of extended quickened summons, but let's suppose they aren't).Actually, a Quickened Summon Monster spell would take a Swift Action, not a Standard Action (which is what the Summoner's ability does).
Actually a Quickened Summon Monster spell isn't possible, as
"A spell whose casting time is more than 1 round or 1 full-round action cannot be quickened." and Summon monster has a casting time of 1 round.Fun fact; druids can get a new pet everyday for free and have 9th level spellcasting. Summoners have to wait until each level to make changes to their pet.Umm... Transmogrify, anyone?Cool beans. You spent 1000gp, a 4th level spell, and wasted an hour of everyone's time rearranging evolutions.
Druids just need to wait 24 hours.
Fun fact; most summoners don't take that spell. There's usually soemthing better to take.
True, they buy a scroll of it.
I dont know that I agree, what situation cant a certain summoner deal with? Can they exactly replicate what a wizard can do? No, but they can deal with the same variety of challenges, and do so with an action economy bonus and a lot less concern for the 15 minute adventure day then a wizard can.The one he didn't have the right spell for? He certainly can't scry and die or lover's pain someone. He may not have dominate monster. He may not have teleport. He may not have spells that have lots of uses, or that one exact one for the exact moment. A wizard may not have one on that day, but the next day he can get it.
Does that make sense? That's why prepared is tier one, sponteous tier 2. I can make a sorcerer that is extremely prepared, has a varied spell list, and can blow the game to pieces, but he is not able to literally have a spell for every situation.
Scry and die are a solution, not a situation. You are assuming the only way to solve a situation is to have 'the right spell'. But that isnt the case. Scry and die the answer to 'how do i infultrate and attack a stronghold that is not magically protected'. A well built summoner has a solution to that problem.
Dominate monster is 'how do I stop that monster from eating my friend'. A summoner has a butload of tools to solve that problem. And he doesnt need the same kind of advanced warning a wizard does to solve it. Honestly the tier system has changed. Wizards arent at the top of it anymore in my mind. Particularly not in the levels where most games are played (hint its not 20th level). A 1st level summoner can deal with ALOT more situations then a 1st level wizard can.
And a wizard is painfully dependent on what the dm gives him in order to achieve his potential at higher levels. If the wizard doesnt have access to other spellbooks or scrolls, and doesnt have the time in the campaign to research spells, (which has happened in a whole bunch of campaigns I've played in) he isnt all that impressive. The summoner is just as impressive regardless of his campaign situation, and in some cases more so when resources are limited.
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Going from the top of the summons because it is faster:
Cures: Ghaele azata, CLW at will, can cast Heal, spells as a 13th level cleric. Astral Deva,dispel evil, dispel magic, remove curse, remove disease, remove fear.
On battlefield detection: Ghaele azata again, constant see invisibility and detect evil, can cast true seeing,
Illusions: Ice devil, persistent image at will
Other detection: Astral Deva, discern lies at will,
Lillend speak with animals, speak with plants, 1/day
It lack scry, but for the level at which you get greater teleport your targets are protected against it.
True, they buy a scroll of it.
They certainly can but this does not make it a better option than just casting Greater Evolution surge as the need arises. I've rarely if ever found myself in a situation where I felt compelled to have my eidolon completely change before waiting until the next level.
Heck even if it turns out useless I could just fall back to plain ole summoning. :)
And a wizard is painfully dependent on what the dm gives him in order to achieve his potential at higher levels. If the wizard doesnt have access to other spellbooks or scrolls, and doesnt have the time in the campaign to research spells, (which has happened in a whole bunch of campaigns I've played in) he isnt all that impressive. The summoner is just as impressive regardless of his campaign situation, and in some cases more so when resources are limited.
Wizard isn't the only tier one. You also have druid and Cleric, who are not dependent on the GM's whim at all! Its about potential. The summoner does not have that potential to actually be prepared for everything in everyway. As I said, I can make an impressive summoner or sorcerer, but they absolutely can not be prepared for everything. The wizard, druid, Erudite Psion, and Archivist however are fully capable of learning knowing every spell.
On the day to day its very possible a tier 1 and 2 won't have the right spell for the occasion. The difference is the Tier one can have that spell the very next day, but the tier 2 can not.
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Wizard isn't the only tier one. You also have druid and Cleric, who are not dependent on the GM's whim at all! Its about potential. The summoner does not have that potential to actually be prepared for everything in everyway. As I said, I can make an impressive summoner or sorcerer, but they absolutely can not be prepared for everything. The wizard, druid, Erudite Psion, and Archivist however are fully capable of learning knowing every spell.On the day to day its very possible a tier 1 and 2 won't have the right spell for the occasion. The difference is the Tier one can have that spell the very next day, but the tier 2 can not.
I haven't see a, say, 11th level wizard that has every single 6th lvl spell. Ever. Or a 15th lvl wizard with all the 8th level or a 5th lvel wizard with all the 3rd lvl spells, in any si gle campaign I've played, evet.
Schrodinger wizards are unbeateable and tier 0. Real wizards are a different beast, though.
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I haven't see a, say, 11th level wizard that has every single 6th lvl spell. Ever.
THey do in all Forums, though. Especially when fighting non-casters in theorycraft PvP threads.
I haven't see a, say, 11th level wizard that has every single 6th lvl spell. Ever. Or a 15th lvl wizard with all the 8th level or a 5th lvel wizard with all the 3rd lvl spells, in any si gle campaign I've played, evet.
Schrodinger wizards are unbeateable and tier 0. Real wizards are a different beast, though.
I haven't seen that wizard either, I have however seen one with twice the number of spells as a sorcerer. I wasn't talking about schrodinger's wizard. That guy has the right thing prepared all the time!
It also completely ignores the argument for prepared divine casters.
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Let's say they have enough spells to "switch out" some. It doesn't matter too much; the Summoner actually has jokers. Need to get under something? Eidolon can burrow. After level 9, I can do shadow evocations and true seeing via assorted summons. And my tricks (overland flight / dim door) get me past many GM "gotchas". Only if I need to scry up do I shrug and admit a failing; but there are few on-level effects a summoner cannot deal with between summons and evo surges.
And I need to see your cohort; if their eidolon isn't keeping up, summons (even 2 levels down) should out damage anyone.
And I need to see your cohort; if their eidolon isn't keeping up, summons (even 2 levels down) should out damage anyone.
Something to keep in mind about cohorts and their pets is that a cohort is 2 levels below the guy with leadership. A pet is normally 2 levels below even that. So from that perspective the pet is routinely facing encounters between 4 to 8 CR higher than itself. That's rough on anyone. So I take that kind of judgment with a grain of salt.
I haven't see a, say, 11th level wizard that has every single 6th lvl spell. Ever. Or a 15th lvl wizard with all the 8th level or a 5th lvel wizard with all the 3rd lvl spells, in any si gle campaign I've played, evet.
Schrodinger wizards are unbeateable and tier 0. Real wizards are a different beast, though.
I haven't seen that wizard either, I have however seen one with twice the number of spells as a sorcerer. I wasn't talking about schrodinger's wizard. That guy has the right thing prepared all the time!
It also completely ignores the argument for prepared divine casters.
Divine casters dont have the same level of impact with their spells as arcane casters. The clerics spell list is awesome, but again, its all about what you have available to you when the situation arises, not what you have the next day.
And I would peg druids right along side the summoner, they I think are still Tier one in actual gameplay. Their summoners, animal companion, wild shape, as well as a descent spell list is what makes them Tier one, not their spells alone.
For me Druids and Summoners are the top tier in actual play, while they dont have the widest variety of tools, they have extremely effective ones that they can apply more consistently then a wizard or cleric. I just think people grossly overvalue prepared casters in theory, where as their impact in actual gameplay is impressive, but not top tier.
In a typical adventure (IE the paizo adventure paths i've played in) I'd rather have a druid and a summoner along, then a wizard and a cleric. I think most people would agree (baring balance concerns ofcourse).
Let's say they have enough spells to "switch out" some. It doesn't matter too much; the Summoner actually has jokers. Need to get under something? Eidolon can burrow. After level 9, I can do shadow evocations and true seeing via assorted summons. And my tricks (overland flight / dim door) get me past many GM "gotchas". Only if I need to scry up do I shrug and admit a failing; but there are few on-level effects a summoner cannot deal with between summons and evo surges.
Doesn't matter when your talking about tiers. You have a lot of tricks, but your eidolon can't do what magic can. You have a lot of magic, but you can not literally be prepared for everything. You also talk about spells like its something the other classes don't have, and for the 100th time your still not prepared for everything. The summoner without evolution surge just doesn't have it. The wizard without dimensional door can learn it, the cleric without cure can prepare it the next day, etc.
In a typical adventure (IE the paizo adventure paths i've played in) I'd rather have a druid and a summoner along, then a wizard and a cleric.
That's fine, however its a personal opinion and has nothing to do with tiers or CoDzilla.
By 5th level a Summon Monster SLA can be converted into a wide variety of spells (usually multiple spells per use) as shown below. Creatures act on your turn (IE - you can use your standard to summon and their standard to cast) and most have additional spells to use besides the one you call them for (for example, mephits tend to have 2 different spells they can use per casting, while some of the latter summon monster spells give you full blown casters).
Remember that you can downcast (Summon Monster VI can summon 1d4+1 Summon Monster IV creatures) which can allow you to quickly spam a lot of low level spells (such as if you wanted to summon 5 mephits who all cast acid arrow on the target for around 20d4 SR-ignoring damage, such as if you were fighting a golem).
Lists noted with a "+" are expanded lists from splat material (such as adventure paths) which can be found on the d20pfsrd.com.
- cause fear (CL 2nd, DC 11)
- stinking cloud (CL 2nd, DC 13)
- aid at-will (CL 3rd)
- detect evil at-will (CL 3rd)
- greater teleport (summon + 50 lbs. only) at-will (CL 3rd)
Summon Monster III+
- hide from undead (CL 3rd, DC 14)
- sound burst (CL 3rd, DC 15)
- speak with dead x3 (CL 12th, 6 questions)
- know direction (CL 2nd)
- speak with animals (CL 2nd)
- dancing lights (CL 2nd)
- prestidigitation (CL 2nd)
- stabilize (CL 2nd)
- commune (CL 12th, 6 questions)
Summon Monster IV
- blur (CL 6th)
- gust of wind (CL 6th)
- wind wall (CL 6th)
- soften earth and stone (CL 6th)
- scorching ray (CL 6th, +6 ray to hit)
- heat metal (CL 6th, DC 14)
- magic missile (CL 6th)
- chill metal (CL 6th)
- pyrotechnics (CL 6th)
- stinking cloud (CL 6th, DC 15)
- acid arrow (CL 6th)
- glitterdust (CL 6th, DC 14)
- magic circle against evil at-will (CL 6th)
- aid at-will (CL 6th)
- greater teleport (summon + 50 lbs. only) at-will (CL 6th)
Summon Monster V
- see invisibility (CL 7th)
- darkness at-will (CL 7th)
- dispel magic at-will (CL 7th)
- greater teleport (summon + 50 lbs. only) at-will (CL 7th)
- greater teleport (summon + 50 lbs. only) at-will (CL 12th)
- blur at-will (CL 6th)
- charm person at-will (CL 6th, DC 13)
- gust of wind at-will (CL 6th)
- wind wall at-will (CL 6th)
- lightning bolt x2 (CL 6th, DC 15)
- cure serious wounds (CL 6th, DC 15)
- Planewalk (Su) A xill can shift from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane as a move action. Shifting from the Material Plane to the Ethereal Plane takes 2 consecutive full-round actions, during which time the xill is immobile. A xill can take a single willing or helpless creature with it when it switches planes.
Summon Monster V+
- Cloaker Moans
- mage armor (CL 7th)
- charm monster x3 (CL 7th, DC 17)
- dispel evil x3 (CL 7th, DC 18)
- flame arrow x3 (CL 7th)
- holy smite x3 (CL 7th, DC 17)
- remove disease x3 (CL 7th)
- major image (CL 7th, DC 16)
Summon Monster VI
- true seeing (CL 12th)
- single-target fear at-will (CL 12th, DC 19)
- minor image (CL 12th, DC 17)
- unholy blight at-will (CL 12th, DC 19)
- Bardic Performance (countersong, fascinate, inspire courage, inspire competence, and suggestion) 20 rounds as 7th level bard.
- darkness x3 (CL 7th)
- hallucinatory terrain x3 (CL 7th, DC 18)
- knock x3 (CL 7th)
- charm person x3 (CL 7th, DC 15)
- speak with animals x3 (CL 7th)
- speak with plants x3 (CL 7th)
- Bard Spells (CL 7th)
3rd (2/day)—charm monster (DC 17), cure serious wounds
2nd (4/day)—hold person (DC 16), invisibility, sound burst (DC 16), suggestion
1st (5/day)—charm person (DC 15), cure light wounds, identify, sleep (DC 15)
0 (at will)—dancing lights, daze (DC 14), detect magic, lullaby (DC 14), mage hand, read magic (DC 16)
- deeper darkness at-will (CL 10th
- fear at-will (CL 10th, DC 18)
- telekinesis at-will (CL 10th, DC 19)
- shadow conjuration x3 (CL 10th, DC 18)
- shadow evocation x3 (CL 10th, DC 19)
- magic jar (no jar, summon possesses body) (CL 10th, DC 19)
- Shadow Mastiff Bay
- detect good at-will (CL 12th)
- tongues at-will (CL 12th)
- charm monster at-will (CL 12th, DC 22)
- detect thoughts at-will (CL 12th, DC 20)
- ethereal jaunt (summon + 50 lbs. of objects only) at-will (CL 12th)
- suggestion at-will (CL 12th, DC 21)
- greater teleport (summon + 50 lbs. of objects only) at-will (CL 12th)
- vampiric touch at-will (CL 12th)
- dominate person (CL 12th, DC 23)
- Telepathy 100 ft.
Summon Monster VI+
- blur at-will (CL 12th)
- misdirection at-will (CL 12th)
- greater invisibility x3 (CL 12th)
- major image x3 (CL 12th, DC 17)
- modify memory x3 (CL 12th, DC 18)
- nightmare x3 (CL 12th, DC 19)
- phantasmal killer x3 (CL 12th, DC 18)
- shadow walk x3 (CL 12th)
- suggestion x3 (CL 12th, DC 17)
- false vision (CL 12th)
- mind fog (CL 12th, DC 19)
- mislead (CL 12th, DC 20)
- project image (CL 12, DC 21)
- deathwatch at-will (CL 10th)
- bestow curse x3 (CL 10th, DC 16)
- locate creature x3 (CL 10th)
- searing light x3 (CL 10th, DC 16)
Summon Monster VII
- Bebilith abilities:
Dismantle Armor (Ex)
If a bebilith hits a foe with both claw attacks, it can attempt to peel away the target's armor and shield as a free action by making a CMB check. If the bebilith is successful, the target's armor and shield are torn from his body and dismantled, falling to the ground. Armor subjected to this attack loses half its hit points and gains the broken condition if the target fails a DC 25 Reflex save. The save DC is Strength-based.Penetrating Strike (Su)
A bebilith's natural weapons are treated as chaotic and magical for the purposes of penetrating damage reduction. Against creatures with the demon type, its natural weapons are also treated as cold iron and good.Rot (Su)
A bebilith's bite causes a horrible withering and weakening of the flesh, resulting in a hideous melting and foul rotting effect. This catastrophic withering begins on the round the creature is bitten and continues for another 4 rounds thereafter, for 5 rounds of withering in all. Each round the rot persists, the target must succeed on a DC 23 Fortitude save or take 2 points of Constitution damage. If the target makes two consecutive saving throws in a row, the effect is cured. Heal can also halt the rot effect. The save DC is Constitution-based.
- dimensional anchor at-will (CL 12th)
- wall of ice at-will (CL 12th)
- telekinesis at-will (CL 12th, DC 18)
- heroism (CL 12th)
Summon Monster VII+
- desecrate constant (CL 11th)
- Cleric Spells (CL 6th)
3rd—bestow curse (DC 16), contagion (DC 16), dispel magicD, inflict serious wounds (DC 16)
2nd—death knellD (DC 15), hold person (DC 15), inflict moderate wounds (DC 15), resist energy, spiritual weapon
1st—cause fearD (DC 14), command (DC 14), divine favor, obscuring mist, shield of faith
0—bleed (DC 13), detect magic, guidance, resistance
Summon Monster III
Bleh...too much. I've been working on this list for a while. Summon Monster IX also includes all the SLAs and Spells of Astral Devas, Trumpet Archons, Ghaele Azatas, Glabrezu Demons, Ice Devils, and Nalfeshnee demons. Some of the winners here being at-will Cone of Cold (CL 13, DC 20), at-will greater dispel magic (CL 12th), at-will feeblemind (DC 20), DC 21 banishment, a pair of Heal spells, a pair of mass cure serious wounds spells, plane shift, raise dead, neutralize poison, spell immunity (this one is awesome), DC 19 dismissal, CL 14th magic vestment and shield of faith.
A lot of these spells also come attached to a meatshield with horrible abilities to bring against your foes. For example, in addition to being a 14th level cleric on call, the trumpet Archon has a +4 greatsword that is always treated as being good-aligned and constant magic circle against evil.
As for ruining economies, actually...
Lesser Planar Binding (lantern archon) serving for 1 week of time can generate 5,544,000 gp worth of everburning torches, assuming that you are selling each one for 1/2 price.
But really, who cares about economies in this game? XD
Let's say they have enough spells to "switch out" some. It doesn't matter too much; the Summoner actually has jokers. Need to get under something? Eidolon can burrow. After level 9, I can do shadow evocations and true seeing via assorted summons. And my tricks (overland flight / dim door) get me past many GM "gotchas". Only if I need to scry up do I shrug and admit a failing; but there are few on-level effects a summoner cannot deal with between summons and evo surges.Doesn't matter when your talking about tiers. You have a lot of tricks, but your eidolon can't do what magic can. You have a lot of magic, but you can not literally be prepared for everything. You also talk about spells like its something the other classes don't have, and for the 100th time your still not prepared for everything. The summoner without evolution surge just doesn't have it. The wizard without dimensional door can learn it, the cleric without cure can prepare it the next day, etc.
In a typical adventure (IE the paizo adventure paths i've played in) I'd rather have a druid and a summoner along, then a wizard and a cleric.That's fine, however its a personal opinion and has nothing to do with tiers or CoDzilla.
Thats just it, it does have everything to do with 'tier's and especially with codzilla. Both of those are about impact at the game table. A true tier one character doesnt just have the potential to take on any situation, the DO take on any situation. And given the realities of actual campaigns, wizards in particular but prepared casters in general dont have the impact you are claiming.
A wizard has the potential to have just the right spell for any situation. But in practice he doesnt. In an reasonable campaign, with a reasonable pace, and a variety of challenges, the wizard will often be without the proper spell in a given situation. Whether he is low on his best spells, or simply didnt prepare the right one.
A summoner, has this super flexible toolset ALWAYS available to him. In particular with evolution surge and transmogrophy, but just with the summon sla, and his normal spell set, he can handle a boatload of challneges effectively. And he can do it over the course of a much longer adventuring day then a wizard can. And they also arent ever caught with their pants down. They always have their tools at hand. A wizard or cleric who thought he was facing a bunch of outsiders today and gets ambushed by something else, probably doesnt have the tools he needs.
And given that the vast majority of play happens bellow 12th level, that always on toolset is far more effective then what the wizard or cleric has to play with most of the time.
I haven't see a, say, 11th level wizard that has every single 6th lvl spell. Ever. Or a 15th lvl wizard with all the 8th level or a 5th lvel wizard with all the 3rd lvl spells, in any si gle campaign I've played, evet.
Schrodinger wizards are unbeateable and tier 0. Real wizards are a different beast, though.
I haven't seen that wizard either, I have however seen one with twice the number of spells as a sorcerer. I wasn't talking about schrodinger's wizard. That guy has the right thing prepared all the time!
It also completely ignores the argument for prepared divine casters.
Sure. And more than twice. That is however, still far away from "have a spell for every situation".
I have seen wizards outshine sorcerers because they could switch spells (thanks to divination or waiting one day). I have also seen sorcerers outshine wizards because they could spontaneus cast (like casting invisibility to everybody on the fly, or switching the 4th level slots between empowered scorching rays or enervation depending if the target was undead or fire resistant.
And yes, prepared divine have all spells in 24h. However, my point is: wizards DON'T. And that doesn't mean they can't be Tier 1. Because they have a vast array of tools to defeat almost any problem. Druids or clerix are tier 1 too, because they can face the same problems with a DIFFERENT array of tools (they don't have the same spells).
Sorcerer can face the same problems and also have a huge amount of tools and can defeat the same problems. And summoners can too.
About what has been said about UMD. Yes, every class can take UMD. But not every class has a huge Cha,UmD as class skill, the ability to gain +8 racial bonus to it, and a spell to gain it on the fly spending only 1 rank in your whole career.
AlsO: eidolons can get spells like SLA with evolutions. Transmography or evolution surge can give your pet new evolutions. This gives access to a few things that he normally doesn't have. Such as DD spells, restoration spells or healing spells
@Ashiel: Don't you stop on me now fool! You don't realize how useful this is to me right now.
please?
Wizards can cast summon monster too, as can clerics, and druids can spontaneously cast summon spells. There's also don't go away when you summon more than one, and they get more spells, and they know more than the summoner could hope to know. In practice its possible either of them could have the wrong or right spells for the situation, but a tier one has much more potential to do so.
Summoners are not CoDzilla, they do not do full BAB + Full casting. They do however do something similar, but not nearly as bad.
Now, putting it into perspective, the Summon Monster SLA on the summon is 5 + Cha modifier times per day (easily 15+ at 20th level counting items, inherent modifiers you get from your bound genies, level advancement and a base of 15 or better). It's basically "choose a tactical advantage" as a SLA. It alone can be used to solve problems, bypass immunities, protect people, kill things, etc. In fact, once you're 11th level with Summon Monster VI, there is very little in the bestiary you can't kill with a single casting of Summon Monster VI (a single shadow demon for 110 rounds is a death sentence for almost any sort of creature that doesn't wield magic weaponry, and those that they do have to contend with its SLAs; or if the creature is neutral or good-aligned, summon an erinyes and bomb it for 6d8 unavoidable damage every round on the round, or call a succubus to spam DC 22 charm monster spells until it cries uncle and lets the succubus drain it to death).
This is just the summon monster ability, because summoning is boss. Except our summoning is more boss because it's a standard action and we don't even have to wiggle our fingers to do it (no vocal, somatic, or material components).
On top of this, we have a spell list of our own that is very good and grants us access to minions of all shapes and sizes. Simulacrum means we can produce cohorts for ourselves for general purposes (for example, I can purchase a scroll of simulacrum (3 HD) for a summoner at 3,125 gp and create a simulacrum of a succubus to serve as a spy and interrogator, since most of her usefulness is not derived from her HD but from her racial abilities; and I can purchase this scroll in any small city most of the time).
Then we have cheap spell access via scrolls and such (see simulacrum example above). On top of that we're not squishy (again, D8 HD, armor, etc). And to round it off, if we're not summoning monsters to do our bidding we have a beefcake monster who does our bidding and can round out our own abilities nicely because it gets lots of skill points and is pretty expendable.
The master summoner is even better, because you can use the eidolon as a skill b**** (you could even just give it Skilled over and over to give it a +8 racial to lots of skills) and use your SLA for everything else (at 5 + Cha per day is pretty saucy, and if you want you can take Extra Summons a few times to go even further).
By 5th level a Summon Monster SLA can be converted into a wide variety of spells (usually multiple spells per use) as shown below.
Remember that it cannot be "converted" into spells or SLA that duplicate spells with a costly material effect, so no Commune nor True Sight (and quite a few of others are off as well). Also they can't use any teleportation or planar travel abilities.
Summoners are not CoDzilla, they do not do full BAB + Full casting. They do however do something similar, but not nearly as bad.
Current druids and clerics cannot either.
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@Ashiel: Don't you stop on me now fool! You don't realize how useful this is to me right now.
please?
Heh, okay. As far as spells/SLAs go, you can just copy/paste the stuff from the summon monster IX outsiders onto the list and that's pretty much covered; but I didn't count most of the really awesome abilities that weren't SLAs (a few made the list, like the bebilith's specials, the xill's ability to transport you and your party to and from the ethereal plane).
Maybe I should make a mini guide for summoning and point out some of the nicer summons and how to make use of their unique abilities. For example, that Xill thing is hax. Allowing your party - or even just your minions - to travel around ethereally can allow you to map out an entire dungeon complex before putting yourself in danger or even escape or avoid entire situations (for example, at 1 minute / caster level, a Xill summon can transport your entire party to the ethereal plane, allow you to pass by a guard post or lookout without a fight, and then transport you back where you can take enemies by surprise).
@Ashiel: Don't you stop on me now fool! You don't realize how useful this is to me right now.
please?
Heh, okay. As far as spells/SLAs go, you can just copy/paste the stuff from the summon monster IX outsiders onto the list and that's pretty much covered; but I didn't count most of the really awesome abilities that weren't SLAs (a few made the list, like the bebilith's specials, the xill's ability to transport you and your party to and from the ethereal plane).
Maybe I should make a mini guide for summoning and point out some of the nicer summons and how to make use of their unique abilities. For example, that Xill thing is hax. Allowing your party - or even just your minions - to travel around ethereally can allow you to map out an entire dungeon complex before putting yourself in danger or even escape or avoid entire situations (for example, at 1 minute / caster level, a Xill summon can transport your entire party to the ethereal plane, allow you to pass by a guard post or lookout without a fight, and then transport you back where you can take enemies by surprise).
Except, as already noted, a Xill summoned by a Summon Monster spell or SLA cannot do this, as it is a plane travelling ability:
"A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities."
Summoners are not CoDzilla, they do not do full BAB + Full casting. They do however do something similar, but not nearly as bad.Current druids and clerics cannot either.
No, not in pathfinder anyway. In 3.5, where CoDzilla is from, the world was a different place, I went through a bit of one of the routines to make CoDzilla way at the start.
By 5th level a Summon Monster SLA can be converted into a wide variety of spells (usually multiple spells per use) as shown below.Remember that it cannot be "converted" into spells or SLA that duplicate spells with a costly material effect, so no Commune nor True Sight (and quite a few of others are off as well). Also they can't use any teleportation or planar travel abilities.
The true seeing is via proxy. It's a constant effect on the creature. You're right about commune though, but we have a solution for that due to our early access.
Commune is a 5th level cleric spell (meaning 9th level is the earliest we can take it as a cleric). But we can take lesser planar binding at 10th and call up a quasit, imp, arbiter, etc to use it for us (it's called so no worries). Or if we want to use this spell frequently, we make a simulacrum of the lil' guy and we have him on call permanently.
Either way we're getting a 9th level cleric spell only 1 level behind the cleric via our versatility. :P
@Ashiel: Don't you stop on me now fool! You don't realize how useful this is to me right now.
please?
Heh, okay. As far as spells/SLAs go, you can just copy/paste the stuff from the summon monster IX outsiders onto the list and that's pretty much covered; but I didn't count most of the really awesome abilities that weren't SLAs (a few made the list, like the bebilith's specials, the xill's ability to transport you and your party to and from the ethereal plane).
Maybe I should make a mini guide for summoning and point out some of the nicer summons and how to make use of their unique abilities. For example, that Xill thing is hax. Allowing your party - or even just your minions - to travel around ethereally can allow you to map out an entire dungeon complex before putting yourself in danger or even escape or avoid entire situations (for example, at 1 minute / caster level, a Xill summon can transport your entire party to the ethereal plane, allow you to pass by a guard post or lookout without a fight, and then transport you back where you can take enemies by surprise).
Except, as already noted, a Xill summoned by a Summon Monster spell or SLA cannot do this, as it is a plane travelling ability:
"A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities."
Ah, good catch. I knew they couldn't use their summoning abilities via summon monster, but I forgot about their planar travel abilities.
By 5th level a Summon Monster SLA can be converted into a wide variety of spells (usually multiple spells per use) as shown below.Remember that it cannot be "converted" into spells or SLA that duplicate spells with a costly material effect, so no Commune nor True Sight (and quite a few of others are off as well). Also they can't use any teleportation or planar travel abilities.The true seeing is via proxy. It's a constant effect on the creature. You're right about commune though, but we have a solution for that due to our early access.
Commune is a 5th level cleric spell (meaning 9th level is the earliest we can take it as a cleric). But we can take lesser planar binding at 10th and call up a quasit, imp, arbiter, etc to use it for us (it's called so no worries). Or if we want to use this spell frequently, we make a simulacrum of the lil' guy and we have him on call permanently.
Either way we're getting a 9th level cleric spell only 1 level behind the cleric via our versatility. :P
True Seeing/constant is still a SLA. By strict RAW, the summoned monster cannot use it. You might be able to argue for it, but it is not RAW.
Planar Binding is a different beast altogether, with its own potential for cheese.
