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It does. You can have all the scrolls in the world, and cast any of them, without burning it. You can't cast two in a day, unless you change your dress. But you have the potential to cast any spell in the game, if you have all the scrolls.So you basically get to cast a spell from a scroll? Like everyone with UMD?
Except for the part where you don't destroy the spell once you have read (and hence you can read it again and again), yes, it's exactly like having UMD... *rolleyes*
It might be best to table the discussion of tiers and return to the original question, because while Clerics & Druids were put in "Tier 1," as someone else pointed out, CoDZilla is something else.
Then people don't have to try to solve the unsolvable of just how powerful Wizards are in actual game-play or whether that's relevant to the Tier System (which is evidently about theoretical potential - and noting that, historically, in some actually-published official-adventures, spellbooks said to contain every spell in the PHB were left laying around for adventurers to pick up. Often published adventures written by the same set of people who would lecture against "Monty-Hall DMing." But I digress again).
Returning to the matter at hand: are summoners PF's CoDZilla?
- Can they rather easily amp their action economy?
- Can they rather easily out-melee the melee-classes?
- Do they have tons of useful self-buffs?
- Can they do all that and spam the battlefield with useful critters?
Maybe the answer to all that is "yes, but" - "yes, but they're not as powerful as the world-eating monster that was 3.5E CoDZilla."
But are they still potent enough to be PF's version of "CoDZilla"?
(Note, I am not implying I know the answer to that. I've never played a Summoner, myself).
I think everybody agrees that 3.5 CoDzillas were in another league than Summoners, and even in a different league than Wizards.
I think everybody agrees that 3.5 CoDzillas were in another league than Summoners, and even in a different league than Wizards.
Then why are people beating a horse repeatedly on a subject they're not going to agree on (Tiers and the Theorycraft Wizard Problem)?
It might be best to just agree to disagree and stumble off to bicker in whole new threads on other topics. Or not. Far be it from me to dispense useful advice.
Except that PF has changed the Sorcerer and they now have access to far more spells known. As such they can be created to be able to deal with a much larger array of situations, enough to allow them to be considered Tier 1.
Clerics and Druids have access to all of their spells however there are significant areas, notably in transportation and charm/control in which they struggle without particular feat/domain choices and yet they are still considered Tier 1.
You keep reading over the part where those classes can actually know every possible spell, but the sorcerer doesn't. Yes, the sorcerer knows can know a lot of spells, he doesn't know all of them, and more importantly he doesn't have the potential to know them like the other classes named.
Edit: In simple terms, the oracle can know a lot. The cleric can know all.
You keep reading over the part where those classes can actually know every possible spell, but the sorcerer doesn't. Yes, the sorcerer knows can know a lot of spells, he doesn't know all of them, and more importantly he doesn't have the potential to know them like the other classes named.Except that PF has changed the Sorcerer and they now have access to far more spells known. As such they can be created to be able to deal with a much larger array of situations, enough to allow them to be considered Tier 1.
Clerics and Druids have access to all of their spells however there are significant areas, notably in transportation and charm/control in which they struggle without particular feat/domain choices and yet they are still considered Tier 1.
Actually, he does. It's just more expensive (or time consuming). If we are going to play exclusively in the world of theoryfinder, the money isn't an issue, as any full caster can break the economy of the game and get as much gold as he could need. There is a Planar Binding factory of everburning torches in this thread, for example.
Knowing every spell is not a requirement for being Tier 1.
It is.
Knowing every spell is not a requirement for being Tier 1.It is.
It is not. Wizards are tier 1 and they don't know every spell. They just have the theorical potential to do so, which money and time. Just like the (pathfinder) sorcerer has the same potential with (more) money and time.
It is not. Wizards are tier 1 and they don't know every spell. They just have the theorical potential to do so, which money and time. Just like the (pathfinder) sorcerer has the same potential with (more) money and time.Knowing every spell is not a requirement for being Tier 1.It is.
Except they don't. Wizards can add every sorcerer/wizard spell to their spell book. A sorcerer can't add every sorcerer/wizard spell to his spells known. Do we need to add a special addendum to every tier list that says "But Gustavo and Andrew said..." or can you accept the sorcerer doesn't know every spell and doesn't get access to it? Your banking on magic items, ones that are expensive. Too expensive.
Knowing every spell is not a requirement for being Tier 1.It is.Lets say that your Wizard has picked up Charm Person, Charm Monster, Dominate Person and Dominate Monster.
My Sorcerer knows Dominate Monster. I may have had one or two of the others earlier in my career but I have trained out of them. What solutions do you bring to a problem with the 3 extra spells than the Sorcerer does?
The reality is that the spell lists are filled with a mass of redundant spells, dross or horribly situational crap. It is not difficult to create a list of limited spells which will cover every base and be campaign breaking without any problem.
and that change the fact you don't know all of them!
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But are they still potent enough to be PF's version of "CoDZilla"?
I could see this argument. A summoner might even come close to being the PF version of CODzilla... but I think it falls short on the spellcasting.
If there was a PF version of CODzilla I would say that Druid is the closest thing. Even with the nerfed Wildshape... if you dont dump your physical stats you can still be pretty effective in melee. And Druid kept all the other toys in its bag of tricks.
The other one I can think of is a Beast-Bound Witch after level 10. He can literally take over any body he wants permanently. Find a dragon. Take his body. Now you have the physical form and your spellcasting. Your BAB suffers but the right Parton gives you access to the combat buff spells you need. Add on top of that the fact you can get an 18 HD Ghost of ANYTHING you want for one Negative level (which you can give to your soul-bound familiar).
So your a Dragon. Your Familiar is a Dragon/Balor/Archon/whatever. You have a 18 HD Ghost Sorcerer as a pet. And your a 9th spell level caster with Cleric buffs. GG man... GG!
Because you don't need to know all of them. Charm Person is redundant when you pick up Charm Monster. Summon Monster IV invalidates Summon Monster I. Mass Suggestion makes Suggestion unnecessary. Knowing every spell is not required to be Tier 1 because spells have inherent redundancy.
Again, you miss the point about not knowing all of them. Beating a dead horse until its not even there anymore. There are some redundancies here and there, but you won't have every spell for every situation. Tier 1 can, tier 2 doesn't. You can still have the right spell for many occasions, and a large spell list, and a spell list without any redundancies and the top pick, but you won't know all of them and you won't be able to prepare for every situation like a tier 1.
back to CoDzilla, Summoners have some resemblance, but I don't think they could be nearly as terrifying. I've played with CoDzilla and optimized summoners both, and summoners aren't nearly as gamebreaking in my experience. YMMV I suppose.
Wow, incredibly pointless discusion in the last pages.
Did you have anything to add to the discussion or are you just bloviating and adding to the pointlessness?
Except they don't. Wizards can add every sorcerer/wizard spell to their spell book. A sorcerer can't add every sorcerer/wizard spell to his spells known.It is not. Wizards are tier 1 and they don't know every spell. They just have the theorical potential to do so, which money and time. Just like the (pathfinder) sorcerer has the same potential with (more) money and time.Knowing every spell is not a requirement for being Tier 1.It is.
Wizards can add every sorcerer/wizard spell to their spell book if they find it. It's not like they bring Time Stop spells in the inner pages of the newspaper. They need to go there, and find the spell, or buy the scroll. Sorcerers can buy the scroll, and cast it forever with a mnemonic vestment, and they can add any spell to their list of known spells. They just have to pay for pages of spell knowledge. Which they didn't exist in 3.5. That's the difference: in 3.5 the sorcerers *were* limited to their spell list. They couldn't adapt. Now they can.
Let's suppose the group has to kill the dragon in their trap-filled lair. The cleric and druid can just memorize whatever spells are needed, and solve the problem. The wizard can do the same, if the spells are in his spellbook. However, if they aren't, he *could* go and learn those spells from scrolls, using gold, or search for them in other wizards spellbooks, using time. That's why it's tier 1.
In 3.5, the sorcerer couldn't adapt, he would need to use what he had. In Pathfinder, even if he can't solve them through their expanded spell list, however, the sorcerer could go and take those scrolls, and cast them through the vestment. Or he could craft pages of spell knowledge, and learn those spells to solve the problem. He can then sell those pages, and recover the gold (thus investing only time), or just keep them and have extra spells.
Wow, incredibly pointless discusion in the last pages.
I'm listening to this while browsing the forum.
Wait, this isn't the "what are you listening to while browsing the forum" thread?
Nevermind.
I dunno what his answer is, but I know what mine is!Wow, incredibly pointless discusion in the last pages.Did you have anything to add to the discussion or are you just bloviating and adding to the [existing] pointlessness?
Wow, incredibly pointless discusion in the last pages.No-one is forcing you to read them.
Au contrare: I have a cruel master.
In 3.5, the sorcerer couldn't adapt, he would need to use what he had. In Pathfinder, even if he can't solve them through their expanded spell list, however, the sorcerer could go and take those scrolls, and cast them through the vestment. Or he could craft pages of spell knowledge, and learn those spells to solve the problem. He can then sell those pages, and recover the gold (thus investing only time), or just keep them and have extra spells.
In PF I think they are both to be honest. If you look at the description of the Tier System...
"Also note that with enough optimization, it's generally possible to go up a tier, and if played poorly you can easily drop a few tiers, but this is a general averaging, assuming that everyone in the party is playing with roughly the same skill and optimization level. "
So if you optimize the sorcerer correctly he can be a Tier 1. If your a normal Sorcerer you probably fall into Tier 2. If you pick your spells poorly you are probably in the Tier 3 area.
In 3.5, the sorcerer couldn't adapt, he would need to use what he had. In Pathfinder, even if he can't solve them through their expanded spell list, however, the sorcerer could go and take those scrolls, and cast them through the vestment. Or he could craft pages of spell knowledge, and learn those spells to solve the problem. He can then sell those pages, and recover the gold (thus investing only time), or just keep them and have extra spells.
Those eat up his wealth based level though. Have you seen the price of a page of spell knowledge? Exponential growth. 81k to learn a 9th level spell. At 5k+ the price of the scroll for every spell you still aren't doing so well. The wizard eats his consumable and gets refunded. The cleric and druid new theirs to begin with.
It isn't the same, still beating a dead horse. With infinite wealth I could do a lot of things.
No-one is forcing you to read them.Au contrare: I have a cruel master.
A master who forces you to read forums all day? Sounds awful.
In 3.5, the sorcerer couldn't adapt, he would need to use what he had. In Pathfinder, even if he can't solve them through their expanded spell list, however, the sorcerer could go and take those scrolls, and cast them through the vestment. Or he could craft pages of spell knowledge, and learn those spells to solve the problem. He can then sell those pages, and recover the gold (thus investing only time), or just keep them and have extra spells.Those eat up his wealth based level though. Have you seen the price of a page of spell knowledge? Exponential growth. 81k to learn a 9th level spell. At 5k+ the price of the scroll for every spell you still aren't doing so well. The wizard eats his consumable and gets refunded. The cleric and druid new theirs to begin with.
It isn't the same, still beating a dead horse. With infinite wealth I could do a lot of things.
It's true, it's more expensive. He only needs to do so for those spells he
a)doesn't already knowb)need to solve the problem.
For the price of a 9th level page of knowledge, you could buy 15 different 9th level spells (which means all of them which are useful), and craft 6 or so mnemonic vestment. Not counting the 9th level spells you aready know and cast. Exactly what problem requires more than 10-12 9th level spells?
BTW: you don't need a mnemonic vestment for *every* scroll. You can craft, say, 6 mnemonic vestements, which allow you to cast 6x day any scroll you have. Now you only need to have scrolls from every spell, and pray that you can solve any problem with the power of a full 20th level sorcerer, +6 castings of any spell in the book. I bet your pray will be heared.
I'm going to leave the discussion, we are beating too much dead horses. But I still think you aren't taking in acount the sheer flexibility that Pathfinder gave to sorcerers in this aspect. They aren't the 3.5 sorcerer anymore. In 3.5 they couldnt *adapt* to situations. In PF, they can
Also, pages of spell knowledge doesn't need gold. They need time. You craft one in 41 days, use it, solve the problem, then sell it for 41k and recover your gold :P. With Greater Create Demiplane, time isn't a problem either.
A master who forces you to read forums all day? Sounds awful.No-one is forcing you to read them.Au contrare: I have a cruel master.
Tell me about it!
I'd rather have one of those masters like - remember the scene where the Jabba was having his minions torture the droids by pressing some hot metal against their treads?
That. Yes, like that. Much better.
what about human Sage Bloodline sorcerers who not only abuse the human favored class bonus spells known but also spend a feat on "Racial Heritage (Half-Elf)" to qualify for paragon surge?
now, they know 50% more spells, have double-triple the amount of skill points, and can expend a 3rd level spell to get any emergency spell they wish.
i would still consider it a high tier 2.
what about human Sage Bloodline sorcerers who not only abuse the human favored class bonus spells known but also spend a feat on "Racial Heritage (Half-Elf)" to qualify for paragon surge?
now, they know 50% more spells, have double-triple the amount of skill points, and can expend a 3rd level spell to get any emergency spell they wish.
i would still consider it a high tier 2.
Paragon surge is clearly tier 1, assuming your DM allow it
The other one I can think of is a Beast-Bound Witch after level 10. He can literally take over any body he wants permanently. Find a dragon. Take his body. Now you have the physical form and your spellcasting. Your BAB suffers but the right Parton gives you access to the combat buff spells you need. Add on top of that the fact you can get an 18 HD Ghost of ANYTHING you want for one Negative level (which you can give to your soul-bound familiar).
So your a Dragon. Your Familiar is a Dragon/Balor/Archon/whatever. You have a 18 HD Ghost Sorcerer as a pet. And your a 9th spell level caster with Cleric buffs. GG man... GG!
Yes, that's a good point; anything that allows you to take over any body you want permanently is pretty broken, though there are circumstance restrictions that might limit its utility, plus I'd say the power is a bit vaguely worded (did they clarify that this is a permanent take-over? Where does the target's soul go to since there is no receptacle? Is it simply vaporized?)
(Possibly there is a FAQ clarification on these questions but I'm not aware of it).
Paragon surge is clearly tier 1, assuming your DM allow itwhat about human Sage Bloodline sorcerers who not only abuse the human favored class bonus spells known but also spend a feat on "Racial Heritage (Half-Elf)" to qualify for paragon surge?
now, they know 50% more spells, have double-triple the amount of skill points, and can expend a 3rd level spell to get any emergency spell they wish.
i would still consider it a high tier 2.
it is no more tier 1 than using a scroll.
at best, you are trading a 3rd level slot to "Grab" the "scroll" and the spell slot for the actual spell to "power" the "scroll"
basically, you blow 2 spell slots to mimic the equivalent of using a scroll of a spell you don't know instead of spending gold to buy one.
Paragon surge is clearly tier 1, assuming your DM allow itwhat about human Sage Bloodline sorcerers who not only abuse the human favored class bonus spells known but also spend a feat on "Racial Heritage (Half-Elf)" to qualify for paragon surge?
now, they know 50% more spells, have double-triple the amount of skill points, and can expend a 3rd level spell to get any emergency spell they wish.
i would still consider it a high tier 2.
it is no more tier 1 than using a scroll.
at best, you are trading a 3rd level slot to "Grab" the "scroll" and the spell slot for the actual spell to "power" the "scroll"
basically, you blow 2 spell slots to mimic the equivalent of using a scroll of a spell you don't know instead of spending gold to buy one.
If you could buy the scroll of Protection from Energy on the fly in the middle of a fight inside a dragon's lair you have just found, yes, it's the same. Otherwise, no, it's not the same.
Wasn't this thread about summoners?
Wasn't this thread about summoners?
And clerics and druids :P
Can they cast paragon surge?
No, they can not.
Wasn't this thread about summoners?And clerics and druids :P
3.5 Druids and Clerics if we're talking about CoDzilla.
If you could buy the scroll of Protection from Energy on the fly in the middle of a fight inside a dragon's lair you have just found, yes, it's the same. Otherwise, no, it's not the same.Paragon surge is clearly tier 1, assuming your DM allow itwhat about human Sage Bloodline sorcerers who not only abuse the human favored class bonus spells known but also spend a feat on "Racial Heritage (Half-Elf)" to qualify for paragon surge?
now, they know 50% more spells, have double-triple the amount of skill points, and can expend a 3rd level spell to get any emergency spell they wish.
i would still consider it a high tier 2.
it is no more tier 1 than using a scroll.
at best, you are trading a 3rd level slot to "Grab" the "scroll" and the spell slot for the actual spell to "power" the "scroll"
basically, you blow 2 spell slots to mimic the equivalent of using a scroll of a spell you don't know instead of spending gold to buy one.
most wizards carry so many scrolls pre made it is hardly an issue.
hell, you are blowing two spell slots to "buy" a "scroll" on the fly and use it.
i think there is a similar ability provided by a feat in the inner sea world guide that gives you a perpetually building resource pool you can pull out from and deposit in from literally Anywhere. i cannot remember if the pathfinder version has it, but it is definitely part of the 3.5 version. the funny thing is, leveling up totally replenishes the pool.
the feat is like having your own fallout Pip Boy that can pull out resources from anywhere on the fly.
A sorcerer can't add every sorcerer/wizard spell to his spells known.
With enough pages of spell knowledge they most certainly can. Hence, the (more) to money.
A sorcerer can't add every sorcerer/wizard spell to his spells known.With enough pages of spell knowledge they most certainly can. Hence, the (more) to money.
Yeah, but its just not feasible. In order to learn every 9th level spell(47) you would spend 3,807,000. 3,564,000 really, because you get 3 total from your sorcerer levels. That's a lot more than your wealth based level, and you have 8 other spell levels to care about. Wizard's get off a little easier, though I'm sure most games wouldn't allow you to run into 47 9th level spells. At least the wizard has a realistic cost to learn all of his spells. 40k right? Half that of a 9th level page of spell power. This is all theorycraft though, I've rarely had a GM who let me purchase more than a 5th level spell.(though to be fair, most games tend to fizzle out around then, and being able to nab all the 1-5th level spells I want is a lot of potential.)
Summoners are not CoDzilla, they do not do full BAB + Full casting. They do however do something similar, but not nearly as bad.
Nor did Cleric or Druid from 3.5.
Nor did Cleric or Druid from 3.5.
Summoners are not CoDzilla, they do not do full BAB + Full casting. They do however do something similar, but not nearly as bad.
3.5 Divine Power disagrees, and the uberbuffed wild shaped monster uses natural attacks anyway. Wild Shape + Greater Magic Fang + SAD! You can also pick any animal and take its physical stats on top of having your full casting, so you didn't really need that full BAB, and you closely resembled it. All those buffs and taking an animals stats instead of your own for the adventure could get pretty over the top.
Yay.
*casts "Slay thread"* :)
Sorry - the spell fails.
It doesn't work on undead.
Yay.
*casts "Slay thread"* :)
Sorry - the spell fails.
It doesn't work on undead.
When you start beating an undead horse I don't know how to react. No! Really, I don't! Command undead maybe?
When you start beating an undead horse I don't know how to react. No! Really, I don't! Command undead maybe?Yay.
*casts "Slay thread"* :)
Sorry - the spell fails.
It doesn't work on undead.
That might work, but so far "many have tried, all have failed" comes to mind. It probably exceeds the HD for any one person's Control Undead ability.
Charm Undead? Perhaps it's worth a try.
Charm Undead? Perhaps it's worth a try.
No thanks, I never found undead all that charming. Lots of charisma, but not so good in the face.
I think it went back to being dead.
3.5 Divine Power disagrees, and the uberbuffed wild shaped monster uses natural attacks anyway. Wild Shape + Greater Magic Fang + SAD! You can also pick any animal and take its physical stats on top of having your full casting, so you didn't really need that full BAB, and you closely resembled it. All those buffs and taking an animals stats instead of your own for the adventure could get pretty over the top.Nor did Cleric or Druid from 3.5.
Summoners are not CoDzilla, they do not do full BAB + Full casting. They do however do something similar, but not nearly as bad.
So, that's a spell.
And wildshape doesn't have full BAB either, as you admit.
When you start beating an undead horse I don't know how to react. No! Really, I don't! Command undead maybe?Yay.
*casts "Slay thread"* :)
Sorry - the spell fails.
It doesn't work on undead.
That might work, but so far "many have tried, all have failed" comes to mind. It probably exceeds the HD for any one person's Control Undead ability.
Charm Undead? Perhaps it's worth a try.
Thread just started Wednesday.