Are Summoners pathfinders CoDZilla?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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TarkXT wrote:
Standard action summoning? Clerics can do that. And just as scary so can casters with Words of Power. Which after looking at I really wish would get more support since it does appear to be rather underrated.

It's not even close to be the same. Clerics can summon some specific aligment based creatures as standard action. Summoner can summon T-rex and pouncing dire tigers as a standard action, and they last for *hours*


DrDeth wrote:

Naw, it's not CoDzilla.

It beats CoDzilla so bad that they wet their pants and cry themselves to sleep at night.

Unless you allow Persistent metamagic and unlimited Nightsticks. Man, that's so cheesy that they made a moon out of it.

Alright I had forgotten about nightstick cheese but barring access to a really stupid item 1-2 persistant spells were no where close to the summoner. (Persistent entire spell list buff is broken but that's a new can of worms)

Why people have an issue with the Summoner just baffles my mind.

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Lets compare a Level 20 Summoner to a Level 20 Conjuration (Teleport) Wizard or a Druid.

Alright let's do that.

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Summoner vs Wizard

D8 vs D6 (Average difference of 20 HP)

20 HP average and PFS 12 at cap. Just noting for the sake of completeness. This matters but isn't huge.

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6th level casting vs 9th level casting

This is a blatant lie or a very deceptive truth. They get 9th level spells. Dominate monster for example. They also get summon monster 9. They are a 9th level caster with roughly the power level of 9th level druids. They also get these spells at the same level as the wizard.

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Limited spell list vs Wizard spell list

Yes that is the wizards stick if summoner overstepped even that we wouldn't have to ask if he's broken, it'd be obvious.

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Eidolon vs Permanent Summon Monster IX (Or 1d3+1 SM VIII)

Considering the summoner can replicate the Summon 9 effect this isn't really an arguement.

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Armored Casting vs Teleport power

The teleportation power is good for when you're grappled/stuck. So is the SLA popping out an outsider to help you.

Summoner vs Druid

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D8 vs D8

even

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6th level casting vs 9th level casting

See above. they are really 9th level spells.

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Limited spell list vs Druid spell list

While it's more limited than the druid it's still fairly expansive.

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Eidolon vs Druid pet

Considering the eidolon alone is winning the DPR olympics this one should be obviously in favor of the summoner.

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Armored casting for both

even although the druid needs +1 wild armor for this to be true.

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SLA summons vs Wildshape

Wild shape is different wildly so to speak (No pun intended). This isn't an equal comparison. A closer comparison would be default to SNA vs SLA. Summon monster is more powerful than SNA now thanks to smite becoming absurd. (Look at the lion) Wild shape is like a free overland flight often times other times it turns you into a damage machine. We'll call this in favor of the druid if you must compare them though.

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Its not even close. The Summoner is a very powerful class dont get me wrong. And they shine in the early levels (where most games are played), but they are far from the most powerful class in the game.

I just have a hard time believing a class with effective 9th level spells at a higher amount than any other class in the game isn't the most powerful class in the game. It's easy to have 11-13 summon 9's. If you make the summoner a master summoner and let him have 2 or more out at a time he does what every tier 1 class does, trivialize everything.


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The summoner's spell access and early access through scrolls and the like is also an incredibly potent thing. People really don't seem to pay much attention to the types of spells they get. A sorcerer with the cleric's spell list is going to be weaker than a cleric or oracle with a cleric's spell list (because the arcane-only spells tend to be stronger by their nature).

The level difference in their spells allow them to get or craft consumables at a huge discount. Haste for 200 gp market price, black tentacles for 525 gp market price, dimensional anchor for 525 gp market price, etc.

At 13th level they can cast simulacrum, the strongest spell in the game. At this point they can make some clones of themselves on the cheap, and those clones have eidolons of their own, and the SLA of their own, and can cast spells like haste, glitterdust, etc, or just spam celestial aurochs to cause trample damage and waste enemy actions on things.

They also get the planar binding line of spells, and due to their early access the scrolls of it are cheap, which combined with their access to the magic circle spells and emphasis on Charisma, it's not particularly hard to ensnare and command a wide variety of outsiders in addition to your usual summonings.

So they're kind of like a wizard with a slightly more limited spell list (but they still get most of the best spells of each level, and usually a spell-level or two early).

Then they have a d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, and can cast while in armor with no troubles at all. They also have their skill points plus their eidolon's skill points (eidolons as outsiders get 6 + Int mod skill points on top of the summoner's 2 + Int mod skill points) which can grant them large advantages in versatility, especially since they can choose 4 skills to be class skills in addition to the Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Stealth (Dex) they get normally (and fly if they have wings).

================================================================

I think we really need to step back and look at what CoDzilla was. CoDzilla is a character who can do most everything and is incredibly powerful while being obscenely well rounded so that it was never particularly weak in any thing it did. Wizards were more powerful than Clerics and Druids, but clerics and druids were awesome spellcasters in addition to casters with armor proficiencies, powerful summons, and a strong chassis (d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, good saves, etc).

Eidolon qualifies just fine for CoDzilla. It has an eidolon who can often rival martials in strength, the summoner itself who isn't useless, the spellcaster aspect, the "I can get decent armor class 'cause I can wear mithral breastplates and stuff", the wide variety of skill opportunity, early access to spells, a very powerful SLA that can carry them through entire sessions alone, and access to some of the most powerful spells in the game (like simulacrum, gate, etc). And just for poops and giggles they get a wide variety of buffs, battlefield control, and even problem solving spells (even ones that have nothing to do with summoning at all).

They're CoDzilla, plain and simple.


Ashiel wrote:
Then they have a d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, and can cast while in armor with no troubles at all. They also have their skill points plus their eidolon's skill points (eidolons as outsiders get 6 + Int mod skill points on top of the summoner's 2 + Int mod skill points) which can grant them large advantages in versatility, especially since they can choose 4 skills to be class skills in addition to the Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Stealth (Dex) they get normally (and fly if they have wings)....

They don't have enough of the game-breaking spells to get up to the Cleric/Druid level. They're still a notch below. Tier 2, not Tier 1.

That said, they share a trait with Druids -- very easy to optimize to a good degree. That counts for a lot in many games.


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Ashiel wrote:

The summoner's spell access and early access through scrolls and the like is also an incredibly potent thing. People really don't seem to pay much attention to the types of spells they get. A sorcerer with the cleric's spell list is going to be weaker than a cleric or oracle with a cleric's spell list (because the arcane-only spells tend to be stronger by their nature).

The level difference in their spells allow them to get or craft consumables at a huge discount. Haste for 200 gp market price, black tentacles for 525 gp market price, dimensional anchor for 525 gp market price, etc

Not only that, they break several paradigms too. A summoner with brew potons can build potions of Dimensional Door to their teammates. That's a powerful ability to give to everybody


Drachasor wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Then they have a d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, and can cast while in armor with no troubles at all. They also have their skill points plus their eidolon's skill points (eidolons as outsiders get 6 + Int mod skill points on top of the summoner's 2 + Int mod skill points) which can grant them large advantages in versatility, especially since they can choose 4 skills to be class skills in addition to the Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Stealth (Dex) they get normally (and fly if they have wings)....

They don't have enough of the game-breaking spells to get up to the Cleric/Druid level. They're still a notch below. Tier 2, not Tier 1.

That said, they share a trait with Druids -- very easy to optimize to a good degree. That counts for a lot in many games.

they get a ton of spells through summons, gate and plannar binding though


even more broken in the defense department, is a summoner in mithril celestial full plate with a mithril buckler

+9 Base AC (+12 w/ standard +3) +8 Msx Dex, 0 ACP, 12.5 lbs, light armor


Mind you I don't ban them from my games. I never banned clerics or druids from my games in 3.5 either. But I acknowledge their power and WHY they are powerful. Clerics and Druids in core 3.5 were amazingly powerful because they could handle most anything. Even the almighty wizard has levels and situations that make it difficult to adapt, especially at low levels where things like HP, AC, and BAB is in short supply.


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I don't ban them either. But they are in the same page than wizards, clerics, sorcerer an druids. They are far better than Bards, magus or inquisitors imho


gustavo iglesias wrote:
Drachasor wrote:

They don't have enough of the game-breaking spells to get up to the Cleric/Druid level. They're still a notch below. Tier 2, not Tier 1.

That said, they share a trait with Druids -- very easy to optimize to a good degree. That counts for a lot in many games.

they get a ton of spells through summons, gate and plannar binding though

I'm not saying that they aren't powerful. I'm just saying it isn't enough to make them the equal of optimized Wizards, Druids, and Clerics. They are at the optimized Sorcerer level from what I've seen. That's still REALLY good, mind you.

And like I said they have a more common power, like Druids, in that they are very easy to optimize. It isn't hard to see what to do to make them very effective. Wizards, Clerics, and Sorcerers are harder in this regard. So I could see how they might appear more potent as a class at a "normal" gaming table.


Drachasor wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Drachasor wrote:

They don't have enough of the game-breaking spells to get up to the Cleric/Druid level. They're still a notch below. Tier 2, not Tier 1.

That said, they share a trait with Druids -- very easy to optimize to a good degree. That counts for a lot in many games.

they get a ton of spells through summons, gate and plannar binding though

I'm not saying that they aren't powerful. I'm just saying it isn't enough to make them the equal of optimized Wizards, Druids, and Clerics. They are at the optimized Sorcerer level from what I've seen. That's still REALLY good, mind you.

And like I said they have a more common power, like Druids, in that they are very easy to optimize. It isn't hard to see what to do to make them very effective. Wizards, Clerics, and Sorcerers are harder in this regard. So I could see how they might appear more potent as a class at a "normal" gaming table.

This isn't a discussion of how broken the wizard is. We already know he's hideously broken but at least most of the things he does can be spell resistances/elemental resistances. The balancing factors are less HP/Lowered saves/less BAB.

They are in practice as powerful as CoDZilla was save for nightsticks and PRC's.


I dont think sorcerer are less powerful tgan druids either. They are tier 1 too for me


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The summoner is a terrible designed class IMHO. It does not only have crazy and powerfull option the class is also very complicate. I just ban summoenrs It is just not worth the effort.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
I dont think sorcerer are less powerful tgan druids either. They are tier 1 too for me

the reason sorcerers were tier 2 and not tier 1, wasn't because of the power of their options, but due to how limited their options were.

a sorcerer could solve a handful of problems really well, but if the wizard, cleric, and druid, were the countries with 1,000 nukes, the sorcerer, oracle, and summoner, were the classes with 100 nukes. still dangerous superpowers, just not America/Russia/China tier.


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But that's no longer true in PF. They got extra spells from bloodline, extra spells from being human, extra spells from feats, extra spells from magic items...


gustavo iglesias wrote:
But that's no longer true in PF. They got extra spells from bloodline, extra spells from being human, extra spells from feats, extra spells from magic items...

Humans Sorcs are quite possibly Tier 1. Otherwise, even with the extra bloodline spells from one of the few bloodlines with good spells, they have trouble getting enough of the high-powered spells. Pages of spell-knowledge are very expensive for high level spells (even mid-level ones are very pricey).

That said, Summoners are good, but still Tier 2, I think.

Really, my main point, which I think some people are missing, is that Summoners are one of the easily optimized classes. In practice that could make them more powerful than many tier 1 classes -- because a lot of players don't optimize well. When the optimization bar is lower, that does have a big impact on how the class feels to the community overall.


Drachasor wrote:
Humans Sorcs are quite possibly Tier 1.

Tier 2. They can't just prepare anything and be prepared for every situation. They do however have a lot of spells to choose from, definitely more than the other sorcs.

Summoners are weird. Its like trying to put 2 people in one tier, with lots of variance. They are not prepared for anything, but gosh do they have a lot of options with all those summon spells and pets. I wouldn't say tier 1, but my friend always says their tier 1.5.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Summoners are banned in my games, both for flavor reasons ( I, um, find the Eidolon extremely ooky. Yeah. That's my main flavor reason. I know, I know... ) and because of all the stuff mentioned upthread. I also really don't want to have to audit a player character every level to see if he still is legal.


Sorcerers can be tier 1 if they are Half-Elf (or Human, actually) and are allowed to abused the Paragon Surge spell.

Otherwise, they're still tier 2. Very powerful tier 2, mind you, but still tier 2. They're still limited to 3 or 3 spells (including the blodline spell) of their highest level, which puts them at considerable disadvantage when compared to Wizards, Clerics and Druids. The fact that they get their spells a level later doesn't help either.

Honestly, I'd have no problem buffing Sorcerers and Oracles if (and only if) spell casting wasn't so freaking powerful.

When magic is toned down a little (especially at higher levels), they could use a small buff, but since spells are easily the most powerful class features of the game, buffing any full caster would be insane.


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MrSin wrote:
Drachasor wrote:
Humans Sorcs are quite possibly Tier 1.

Tier 2. They can't just prepare anything and be prepared for every situation. They do however have a lot of spells to choose from, definitely more than the other sorcs.

Summoners are weird. Its like trying to put 2 people in one tier, with lots of variance. They are not prepared for anything, but gosh do they have a lot of options with all those summon spells and pets. I wouldn't say tier 1, but my friend always says their tier 1.5.

the robe that let them read scrolls without wasting them helps a lot to cover all your bases. Also, Gate often can bring you a guy who can do what need to be done. Any class which can summon a solar is tier 1, becouse solars are tier 1 (lvl 20 clerics).

In my opinion, wizards are better just because Int is a much better ability than Cha. They both are tier 1 imho


By the same logic every caster and everyone with UMD is a tier 1.


Not every caster can cast Gate.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
Not every caster can cast Gate.

With a high enough UMD they can! Fighters must be tier 1?

Anyways, best to judge a class by its features, not by outside influences.


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MrSin wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Not every caster can cast Gate.

With a high enough UMD they can! Fighters must be tier 1?

Anyways, best to judge a class by its features, not by outside influences.

Having Gate (or wish) in your spell list IS a feature.

And yes, any class could,using UMD and scrolls, do exactly the same things a wizard do. Until they run out of WBL, that is. The sorcerer, on the other hand, can cast it on their own. That's something a Bard or Magus can't do. At lvl 20 a sorcerer can cast 5 different 9th lvel spells and 7 different 8th lvl spell. That covers a *lot* of bases.


MrSin wrote:
By the same logic every caster and everyone with UMD is a tier 1.

There is a big difference between using UMD and being able to temporarily add a new spell to your spell list. Adding the spell to your list means if uses your Stats, Caster Level, and feats.

A sorcerer with Rings of Spell Knowledge, Mnemonic Vestment, Pages of Spell Knowledge, and the new feat that lets them prepare a spell at the start of the day can essentially cast any spell from their entire spell list as long as they have the appropriate scroll on hand.


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The summoner like many options in the game will have a variance in power depending on what the GM is used to, and how well he can adjust.

The campaign is also a factor. I have had the master summoner in my game more than once. They do well vs normal encounters, but if I actually plan the boss fight they are not overpowering, and I did not go out of my to target the summoner or the summons when designing the fight.

I would suggest not having the class in your game unless you at least have a base understanding of how it works. Make sure the players knows how it works also.


I have another question regarding the Summon Monster SLA (SM SLA). What happens if the Summoner try to use his SM SLA while his eidolon his still on the battlefield? Is the eidolon immediately sent back to his home plane or does the SM SLA simply fail?


gustavo iglesias wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
Standard action summoning? Clerics can do that. And just as scary so can casters with Words of Power. Which after looking at I really wish would get more support since it does appear to be rather underrated.
It's not even close to be the same. Clerics can summon some specific aligment based creatures as standard action. Summoner can summon T-rex and pouncing dire tigers as a standard action, and they last for *hours*

Minutes actually. And it's limited based on an ability. MAster summoners can have as many as they like out. Vanilla summoners can only have one out.

As for the alignment resttriction on sacred summons? I think its amusing that you're summoning togers and trexes versus flying, ray blasting, DR ignoring lantern archons likely boosted by some AoE buff or another cast in the same round. But that's just me. :)

And of course WoP sorcerers can pop out summons with frightening alacrity.

So yeah, it's not a unique feature, the only real benefits are the longevity and the benefit of being a spell like ability.

So really, it's the spell list that let's them stand out among their peers and from everything I've seen that spell list doesn't really kick in but sporadically and even then they don't cast as much as the main spellcasters.

So great? Certainly. More powerful than a well optimized full caster? Hardly.


Maerimydra wrote:
I have another question regarding the Summon Monster SLA (SM SLA). What happens if the Summoner try to use his SM SLA while his eidolon his still on the battlefield? Is the eidolon immediately sent back to his home plane or does the SM SLA simply fail?

The rules are silent because the character would know this,and the game most likely assumes you are not even going to try. It would be like trying to use a touch attack spell as a ranged touch attack.

I would just have the ability fail to activate, but no uses be expended if a dominated character were told to do this.


wraithstrike wrote:
Maerimydra wrote:
I have another question regarding the Summon Monster SLA (SM SLA). What happens if the Summoner try to use his SM SLA while his eidolon his still on the battlefield? Is the eidolon immediately sent back to his home plane or does the SM SLA simply fail?

The rules are silent because the character would know this,and the game most likely assumes you are not even going to try. It would be like trying to use a touch attack spell as a ranged touch attack.

I would just have the ability fail to activate, but no uses be expended if a dominated character were told to do this.

To emphasize this:

" As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned. "

The ability literally cannot be used if the Eidolon is out.


Drachasor wrote:

To emphasize this:

" As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned. "

The ability literally cannot be used if the Eidolon is out.

Thanks, this is what I was looking for.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
It's not even close to be the same. Clerics can summon some specific aligment based creatures as standard action. Summoner can summon T-rex and pouncing dire tigers as a standard action, and they last for *hours*

Erm, no. Minutes, not hours. At 20th level that's only 20 minutes.


Ashiel wrote:
long post

The most "terrifying" build I've conceived for the Summoner was Synth 17, Pally 2, Monk 1. It has almost zero weaknesses. You can also either level dip into Lore Oracle or get a custom item for constant Nereid's Grace to add some icing to that AC.


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Buri wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
long post
The most "terrifying" build I've conceived for the Summoner was Synth 17, Pally 2, Monk 1. It has almost zero weaknesses. You can also either level dip into Lore Oracle or get a custom item for constant Nereid's Grace to add some icing to that AC.

And just because you built an effective Summoner has nothing to do with if it is a CODzilla.

Access to a few 9th level spells and a few spells early does not equal actually being able to cast 9th level spells

Your DC's are lower.
You dont have some of the more powerful spells
You dont have near the number of spells slots.

Is the summoner a powerful class - Yes
Is it as powerful as Tier 1 classes - No
Is is the new CODzilla - no

A summoner cant cast 7th, 8th, or 8th level spells
It doesn't have full BAB
It doesn't have the HP of a cleric or a druid.
It doesn't have the AC of a CODzilla

Add on top of that the fact people gloss over the weaknesses with Summoners.

Normal Summoner - You can EITHER use your Summon SLA or have your Pet out... not both at the same time.

Master Summoner - You can only have ONE summons out when your Pet is out. To have more then one your pet has to be dismissed and he is at HALF strength.

Sythesist Summoner - He can't cast is SLA's while in Eidolon form. He cant cast and attack at the same time. He gives up his action economy. Druids dont. They can wildshape, summon NA, and have their pet kicking butt ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

A Syth Summoner is the closest thing to a CODzilla (and the weakest of the 3 types imo due to the lose of Action Economy) and its still lacking. It has the AC and Fighting potential, but lacks the casting of a Cleric or the massive options of a Druid (Wildshape, pet, 9th level casting, armored casting, ect)


Drachasor wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
But that's no longer true in PF. They got extra spells from bloodline, extra spells from being human, extra spells from feats, extra spells from magic items...

Humans Sorcs are quite possibly Tier 1. Otherwise, even with the extra bloodline spells from one of the few bloodlines with good spells, they have trouble getting enough of the high-powered spells. Pages of spell-knowledge are very expensive for high level spells (even mid-level ones are very pricey).

That said, Summoners are good, but still Tier 2, I think.

Really, my main point, which I think some people are missing, is that Summoners are one of the easily optimized classes. In practice that could make them more powerful than many tier 1 classes -- because a lot of players don't optimize well. When the optimization bar is lower, that does have a big impact on how the class feels to the community overall.

the human favored class bonus can't really be used as a sorcerer measuring stick, nor can the paragon surge spell because

both are racially specific options without the help of houserules

and the only race that can gain truly both is a human who blows a feat on Racial Heritage (Half-elf)


Dragonamedrake wrote:


A summoner cant cast 7th, 8th, or 9th level spells
It doesn't have full BAB

Strictly speaking no.

But they do have a few of said spells either as 6th level spells or as spell like abilities. A Shaitan Binder can also have his eidolon use limited wish.

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It doesn't have the HP of a cleric or a druid.

Yes it does? All three have d8 hit die. Unless there's more information you're not sharing.

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It doesn't have the AC of a CODzilla

Betcha I can get darn close though.

IF we take Greater aspect to give us 4 things of NAtural armor that gives us +8 natural armor. Add in Greater shield ally for another +4 shield bonus, Bark Skin for another +5 and without adding items or stats we end up with 27 AC naked and with no dex after casting one spell.

If we push this further we can have the Armor Expert trait to ahve us wear mithral breastplates without penalty giving us another +11 AC. The Jingasa of the Fortunate soldier for another +1. I've been making AoO fishing summoners that start with 14 Dex so with items that gives us a +5 dex bonus to AC.

So far we're up to 44 AC. Not high enough. Let's see where else we can push ourselves. WEll Ring of PRotection is one I forgot about to give us +5 easy enough.

I've also been giving my AoO fisherman +5 defending weapons (either Cestus or Longspear depending on the mood.)so add another 5. We're now up to 54 AC with one spell cast and being in reach of the eidolon.

We can almost certainly go higher depending on build and preferences.

Oh and on top of this I have points over to give myself any host of goodies.


Dragonamedrake wrote:
Buri wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
long post
The most "terrifying" build I've conceived for the Summoner was Synth 17, Pally 2, Monk 1. It has almost zero weaknesses. You can also either level dip into Lore Oracle or get a custom item for constant Nereid's Grace to add some icing to that AC.
And just because you built an effective Summoner has nothing to do with if it is a CODzilla.

And? I was just commenting on a post. Don't really give two s!!#s about this CoDzilla thing.

On druids though, Master Summoners can do the same things minus wildshape. With 5+Cha summons for free each day you don't even need to cheese your charisma score. They can be very capable combatants themselves.


TarkXT wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
Standard action summoning? Clerics can do that. And just as scary so can casters with Words of Power. Which after looking at I really wish would get more support since it does appear to be rather underrated.
It's not even close to be the same. Clerics can summon some specific aligment based creatures as standard action. Summoner can summon T-rex and pouncing dire tigers as a standard action, and they last for *hours*

Minutes actually. And it's limited based on an ability. MAster summoners can have as many as they like out. Vanilla summoners can only have one out.

As for the alignment resttriction on sacred summons? I think its amusing that you're summoning togers and trexes versus flying, ray blasting, DR ignoring lantern archons likely boosted by some AoE buff or another cast in the same round. But that's just me. :)

And of course WoP sorcerers can pop out summons with frightening alacrity.

So yeah, it's not a unique feature, the only real benefits are the longevity and the benefit of being a spell like ability.

So really, it's the spell list that let's them stand out among their peers and from everything I've seen that spell list doesn't really kick in but sporadically and even then they don't cast as much as the main spellcasters.

So great? Certainly. More powerful than a well optimized full caster? Hardly.

pouncing smiting dire tigers ignore DR too. And even without a master summoner, you can have 1d3 of them smite-pounce, as a standard summon another 1d3 who instantly smite-pounce. That's roughly 1 gazillion damage. ThE summoner can standard-summon lantern archons too, AND he can summon succubus, or vrocks, or ghaele as well


TarkXT wrote:
Fun fact; druids can get a new pet everyday for free and have 9th level spellcasting. Summoners have to wait until each level to make changes to their pet.

Umm... Transmogrify, anyone?


Dragonamedrake wrote:


Your DC's are lower.
You dont have some of the more powerful spells
You dont have near the number of spells slots.

Is the summoner a powerful class - Yes
Is it as powerful as Tier 1 classes - No
Is is the new CODzilla - no

A summoner cant cast 7th, 8th, or 8th level spells
It doesn't have full BAB
It doesn't have the HP of a cleric or a druid.
It doesn't have the AC of a CODzilla

Add on top of that the fact people gloss over the weaknesses with Summoners.

Normal Summoner - You can EITHER use your Summon SLA or have your Pet out... not both at the same time.

Master Summoner - You can only have ONE summons out when your Pet is out. To have more then one your pet has to be dismissed and he is at HALF strength.

Sythesist Summoner - He can't cast is SLA's while in Eidolon form. He cant cast and attack at the same time. He gives up his action economy. Druids dont. They can wildshape, summon NA, and have their pet kicking butt ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

A Syth Summoner is the closest thing to a CODzilla (and the weakest of the 3 types imo due to the lose of Action Economy) and its still lacking. It has the AC and Fighting potential, but lacks the casting of a Cleric or the massive options of a Druid (Wildshape, pet, 9th level casting, armored casting, ect)

maze is an 8th level spell. Gate is a 9th level spell. A summoner can cast 8th and 9th lvl spells. Sure, he can't cast prismatc wall... but a druid can't either. Just like a wizard can't cast mass heal. No tier 1 class can cast all lvl 8 and 9 spells. Summoner have access to a much better spell list than other "6 level casters".


I' m not exactly sure, but I don't think summons are all that powerful in high level play.

We're playing at Level 16/17 at the moment. Our group consists of a druid, an oracle of heaven, a wizard, a zen archer (me) and a cavalier. We are decently optimized (sadly that's not completely true for the cavalier who has some problems keeping up) without any munchkinism. Actually the longer the characters are in the game, the less optimized they tend to be.

The druid was quite dedicated to summoning and took all/most of the feats to be good at it. It worked well for quite a time, but now our opponents will mostly ignore summoned creatures, because they have no chance of hitting or/and doing damage/or overcoming SR (or...youknow what I mean). We are fighting huge dragons, adamantit golems or arch-vampires and the like.

What I mean: an augmented Nalfashnee (summon Monster 9) was a strong opponent when we were level 12 or 13, but now?

I guess the eidolon could keep up, but I never seen one in play.


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Turgan wrote:
The druid was quite dedicated to summoning and took all/most of the feats to be good at it. It worked well for quite a time, but now our opponents will mostly ignore summoned creatures, because they have no chance of hitting or/and doing damage/or overcoming SR (or...youknow what I mean). We are fighting huge dragons, adamantit golems or arch-vampires and the like.

Eh, I don't see how a 17th level Druid would have a hard time summoning something that could hurt a huge dragon or adamantine golem.

Adamantine Golem: AC 33, DR 15/Epic.

Purple Worm with Augment Summon
Melee bite +27 (4d8+14/19–20 plus grab), sting +27 (2d8+14 plus poison)
So that's a pretty sure hit, especially if flanking. Granted it just averages to be 26 or so damage. However, the druid will summon 1d3+1 of these with a 9th level spell. If it power attacks, that's another +20 damage if it hits with both attacks, btw.

And that's not even the best thing you can attack with, necessarily.

If this player is really taking feats for summons, then they attack with weapons that handle Silver, Cold Iron, and Magic DR. So a Dragon's DR is breached. Granted Dragons are notably tougher to hit. Still, I don't see how the summons would still be very useful.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
maze is an 8th level spell. Gate is a 9th level spell. A summoner can cast 8th and 9th lvl spells. Sure, he can't cast prismatc wall... but a druid can't either. Just like a wizard can't cast mass heal. No tier 1 class can cast all lvl 8 and 9 spells. Summoner have access to a much better spell list than other "6 level casters".

So one 8th level spell and one 9th level spell. Great. GG. They still are not 9 level casters. Bards get early spell access. Paladins get early spell access. So what.

You ignored my points.

They miss out on MOST of the best 7,8,and 9 level spells.
They dont have nearly as many spell slots.
Because they cap at 6th level they lower DC spells.

Tier 1 classes cast more then TWO high level spells.


Drachasor wrote:
Turgan wrote:
The druid was quite dedicated to summoning and took all/most of the feats to be good at it. It worked well for quite a time, but now our opponents will mostly ignore summoned creatures, because they have no chance of hitting or/and doing damage/or overcoming SR (or...youknow what I mean). We are fighting huge dragons, adamantit golems or arch-vampires and the like.

Eh, I don't see how a 17th level Druid would have a hard time summoning something that could hurt a huge dragon or adamantine golem.

Adamantine Golem: AC 33, DR 15/Epic.

Purple Worm with Augment Summon
Melee bite +27 (4d8+14/19–20 plus grab), sting +27 (2d8+14 plus poison)
So that's a pretty sure hit, especially if flanking. Granted it just averages to be 26 or so damage. However, the druid will summon 1d3+1 of these with a 9th level spell. If it power attacks, that's another +20 damage if it hits with both attacks, btw.

And that's not even the best thing you can attack with, necessarily.

If this player is really taking feats for summons, then they attack with weapons that handle Silver, Cold Iron, and Magic DR. So a Dragon's DR is breached. Granted Dragons are notably tougher to hit. Still, I don't see how the summons would still be very useful.

There also seems to be an odd power swing between Summon Natures Ally and Summon Monster.

In the early levels SNA is just plain superior to SM. Then the power starts to swing in the mid levels. By the time you hit high levels SM is far superior to SNA.


Druid summons aren't that powerful at high levels. But a wizard or summoners do not summon a dire tiger, they summon a celestial/infernal dire tiger. Those have smite evil/good, which mean they ignore DR and add tgeir HD to damage.

Also, the high summons have SLA. A succubus can Charm monster at will, with a high DC. 1d4+1 succubi mean 1d4+1 tough will saves per turn. Vrock have telekinesis, and so on.


Dragonamedrake wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
maze is an 8th level spell. Gate is a 9th level spell. A summoner can cast 8th and 9th lvl spells. Sure, he can't cast prismatc wall... but a druid can't either. Just like a wizard can't cast mass heal. No tier 1 class can cast all lvl 8 and 9 spells. Summoner have access to a much better spell list than other "6 level casters".

So one 8th level spell and one 9th level spell. Great. GG. They still are not 9 level casters. Bards get early spell access. Paladins get early spell access. So what.

You ignored my points.

They miss out on MOST of the best 7,8,and 9 level spells.
They dont have nearly as many spell slots.
Because they cap at 6th level they lower DC spells.

Tier 1 classes cast more then TWO high level spells.

Summoners also have more than 2 level 8 and 9 spells. They even get 2 9th level spells as SLA.

And that's not counting the spells they can Gate in. Bards and paladins don't get 9th level spells.


Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
the human favored class bonus can't really be used as a sorcerer measuring stick, nor can the paragon surge spell because

The human racial bonus really can as, assuming you ban/houserule Paragon Surge, Human is the clearly superior choice for the sorcerer. With it you are looking at spontaneous acces to:

7 1st and 2nd level spells
6 3rd, 4th and 5th
5 6th and 7th
6 8th
3 9th

Arcane bloodline will add another 4th, 6th and 8th level spell.

If you cant build a spell list which can cover pretty much any eventuality with that number of spells that you aren't trying hard enough. Being able to cover any gaps with Ring/Page/Vest/Scrolls is simply gravy on top.

It's also worth bearing in mind that Sorcerers make much better use of Metamagic which keeps many of their spells relevant for much longer.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
Dragonamedrake wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
maze is an 8th level spell. Gate is a 9th level spell. A summoner can cast 8th and 9th lvl spells. Sure, he can't cast prismatc wall... but a druid can't either. Just like a wizard can't cast mass heal. No tier 1 class can cast all lvl 8 and 9 spells. Summoner have access to a much better spell list than other "6 level casters".

So one 8th level spell and one 9th level spell. Great. GG. They still are not 9 level casters. Bards get early spell access. Paladins get early spell access. So what.

You ignored my points.

They miss out on MOST of the best 7,8,and 9 level spells.
They dont have nearly as many spell slots.
Because they cap at 6th level they lower DC spells.

Tier 1 classes cast more then TWO high level spells.

Summoners also have more than 2 level 8 and 9 spells. They even get 2 9th level spells as SLA.

And that's not counting the spells they can Gate in. Bards and paladins don't get 9th level spells.

Yes I know they get more then two. Most are utility or deal with summoning.

They also dont get said spells till 16th level.

They also only get a grand total of 5+CHA spell bonus in 6th level spells.

Lets assume you had a crazy CHA like a 36. Thats a whopping 7 spells.

A Wizard with a 36 Int OR a cleric with a 36 WIS has the same 7 6th level spells and an Additional 21 spell slots between 7, 8, and 9th level spells.

A druid with a 36 Wis has 6 6th level spells and 18 additional spell slots between 7,8,and 9.

They also have +3 more points to their Spell DC's.

And you really cant rely on GATE. It cost 10,000 Gold to call creatures in. Its not like your using that every combat... or even more then once or twice period. If you are going to use that then Wizards and Clerics can use Wish/Miracle to get pretty much any spell they want.

Dark Archive

Would a Samsaran Wizard or Witch be able to gain even earlier spell access by using the Summoner list?

There's also the Summon Good Monster feat which is a further boost for Summoners.


Sure. And a summoner with 36 cha can cast 29 lvl 9 spells, including the summon IX SLA. (Their summoms are actually the equivalet of extended quickened summons, but let's suppose they aren't). They have less 7-8 slots, but they have more 9th lvk slots. Several summons can use spells as well, to fill the gap. You dont need to memorize charm monster or telekinesis whem you can summon vrocks and succubi as standard action

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