I agree with you completely. I was just pointing out that MrSin kept requiring knowing ALL spells. For example you must know charm person charm monster dominate person and Dominate monster while a sorceror woud be happy just knowing Dominate Monster (which will do what all the others do).So from what I am reading form the esteemed MrSin, Wizards and Clerics are T2 because they can't know all spells. Wizards only know all the Wizard/Sorceror spells (and with wish can emulate up to 7th level Divine). Clerics only know all the Cleric/Oracle spells and with Miracle can emulate up to 7th level arcane.It's not about knowing(relatively)all the spells. It's about knowing all the methods to solve a given problem AND at times being able to do them better than classes devoted to a particular solution. This does not require knowing every spell, just a wide enough selection.
I'm esteemed am I? Huh.
Anyways, yes, I do require knowing all spells, though missing a few of the opposite alignment or having to pay some pennies to learn them is sometimes a bit of an if. More so its about the potential to learn all spells with wizard, and a cleric who doesn't know a few of the opposite alignment spells usually isn't in big trouble(Many of those have inverse versions anyway). I'm a bit bothered by people splitting hairs over a few lost ones, when they still have the potential to learn far more than the sorcerer. It doesn't matter that you can skimp a few spells with the sorcerer, your still limited to those you know, and you don't have the potential to learn every spell for every situation.
One of the things about 3.5 that made prepared extra powerful in 3.5 was that there were many splatbooks, and that bloat added more potential to the power of prepared, but less so to the spontaneous. Sure you can learn the new spells as a spontaneous, but you have to level up or go out of your way to obtain it. A wizard just learns it from a book, and a cleric or druid just prepares it(if he can anyway, but usually yes). That still exist in pathfinder, though slightly less. Say for example you had a level 3 sorcerer when snowball came out. Next level your learning 2nd level spells, your not likely to swap out something for it are you? I mean you could, but you'd have to give something up. 1000ish gold or a spell you already had. A wizard just learns it. He has it or life(or so long as he has his spellbook). That's a neat advantage.
I took a feat in 3.5 that gave me 4 spells per level and only got spells from core the book that gave me the feat(complete arcane I think.) Anyways, I had a ton of spells to learn per level. I also took 3 prohibited schools. There were a lot of good spells, enough that I had to think about which four to add. As a sorcerer I wouldn't get four per level, and I'd likely have to pick more carefully and I wouldn't have the chance to grab those spells that are situational(though I'd say "I don't have that spell today" less as a sorc). That's part of the advantages(and disadvantages) of being prepared.
Anyways, I can't add an addendum to everything I say to make everyone happy and content.
Second - Your bonus spells dont make up for the lack of spell slots. The only advantage is Item creation. He has them in lower spell levels but he gets those spell levels at around the same time as a full caster would. How is that an advantage. He gets them the same time as a full caster. Has less spell slots then a full caster. And the DC's are lower. How is that an advantage. Lets take a look at one of your examples. Charm Monster. The Summoner gets access to it the same time as a Wizard true (7th level). But the summoner has to share all those great 3rd and 4th level spells with the same Spell level. Wizard has just as many 4th level spell slots as the summoner has 3rd. He can cast Charm Monster just as much. And he still has all those 3rd level spell slots. O and a +1 on the DC of that Charm Monster to boot.
Third - Let me repeat an earlier point you seem to have ignored. They only get a grand total of 5+CHA spell bonus in 6th level spells. Lets assume you had a CHA of 36. Thats 7 spells. A Wizard with a 36 Int OR a cleric with a 36 WIS has the same 7 6th level spells and an Additional 21 spell slots between 7, 8, and 9th level spells.
I would like to address two points that I think you may be overlooking.
8Th level spells in 6th level slots do have an advantage in the fact it's easier to metamagic them with rods. A regular quickened metamagic rod is way cheaper than a greater one. And a quickened 6th lvl maze is as good as a quickened 8th level one, just cheaper.
On the other point, you have to count the SLAs. A summoner with 36 cha has 18 Summon monster IX that greatly reduce the distance with the 21 extra 7th, 8th and 9th lvl spells from the wizard or cleric.
Second - Your bonus spells dont make up for the lack of spell slots. The only advantage is Item creation.
it's an advantage for using rods too. You can quicken Maze with s regular rod, and you can quicken Charm Monster with a lesser rod
Third - Let me repeat an earlier point you seem to have ignored. They only get a grand total of 5+CHA spell bonus in 6th level spells. Lets assume you had a CHA of 36. Thats 7 spells. A Wizard with a 36 Int OR a cleric with a 36 WIS has the same 7 6th level spells and an Additional 21 spell slots between 7, 8, and 9th level spells.
In all fairness, the summoner has 15 extra summon monster IX which greatly reduce the 21 extra 7,8 and 9 level slots.
Second - Your bonus spells dont make up for the lack of spell slots. The only advantage is Item creation.it's an advantage for using rods too. You can quicken Maze with s regular rod, and you can quicken Charm Monster with a lesser rod
Third - Let me repeat an earlier point you seem to have ignored. They only get a grand total of 5+CHA spell bonus in 6th level spells. Lets assume you had a CHA of 36. Thats 7 spells. A Wizard with a 36 Int OR a cleric with a 36 WIS has the same 7 6th level spells and an Additional 21 spell slots between 7, 8, and 9th level spells.In all fairness, the summoner has 15 extra summon monster IX which greatly reduce the 21 extra 7,8 and 9 level slots.
Ahhh, the quickened maze. Gotta love it.
@Dragonamedrake : start making a build that is legit.
For starters, undeads do not benefit from regeneration.
Then, your character have 5 feats more than normal 3.5 characters.
You also have a weapon of legacy which came out of nowhere, with pretty much no prerequisite.
________________________________________
Concerning your post for Summonzilla : you should read when people write : he said that he was comparing to core CoDzilla, not Splatbook CoDzilla.
I have a CODzilla build from 3.5. I called it the Lich King build (World of Warcraft reference). It was even on Briliant Gamologist section for a bit.HERE IT IS.
You may want to rethink your build. You cannot be undead and have regeneration in 3.5 (or in Pathfinder). The best you can hope for is fast healing.
Also, that character is not a cleric. It's a heavily multiclassed character that uses cleric as a base. That's not CoDzilla. CoDzilla doesn't need no stinking prestige classes.
Unless I missed something, that build wasn't undead.
@Leisner : it seems you're right. He have all advantages of undead but still have a constitution score.
Did I mention Troll-blooded does not come from a book but from a magazine ?
As for how20 starting
+5 level
+5 book (Or 5 gated solars granting you wishes)
+6 headbandThat's 36 without even trying. If we really dig deep with a bound succubus massaging your shoulders for +2 profane and another gained +2 sacred you can easily top 40+. Scale back book and level by 1 if you want level 18 not 20.
Whenever the debate over the power of a class gets into really high ability scores, it always sounds to me like a problem with really high ability scores rather than the class. When scores are generally 24ish or under, the ability mod usually isn't a problem. I can't think of any times they're problems when confined to a rolled amount, or even up to max roll + mod of 20.
As for how20 starting
+5 level
+5 book (Or 5 gated solars granting you wishes)
+6 headbandThat's 36 without even trying. If we really dig deep with a bound succubus massaging your shoulders for +2 profane and another gained +2 sacred you can easily top 40+. Scale back book and level by 1 if you want level 18 not 20.
Whenever the debate over the power of a class gets into really high ability scores, it always sounds to me like a problem with really high ability scores rather than the class. When scores are generally 24ish or under, the ability mod usually isn't a problem. I can't think of any times they're problems when confined to a rolled amount, or even up to max roll + mod of 20.
if you want to cap attributes at 20 then
rogues and monks no longer have a chance of hitting a damned thing at the high levels
martial DPR drops drastically
barbarian rage becomes useless
classes who depend on non attribute based ways to boost DPR (or by applying 2 or more attributes) become gods.
He said max of +20 not a max stat of 20.
if you want to cap attributes at 20 thenrogues and monks no longer have a chance of hitting a damned thing at the high levels
martial DPR drops drastically
barbarian rage becomes useless
classes who depend on non attribute based ways to boost DPR (or by applying 2 or more attributes) become gods.
After two high level campaigns lousy with rogues, monks, paladins, and rangers who all proved quite effective, we never found a lick of that to be true.
By the way, I'd cap at 24, not 20.
He said max of +20 not a max stat of 20.
No, I didn't. I said max rolled stat + mod of 20 which I meant to be 18 (max rolled stat) + mod (+2) of 20 (as the max stat a PC can get at start).
@Leisner : it seems you're right. He have all advantages of undead but still have a constitution score.
Did I mention Troll-blooded does not come from a book but from a magazine ?
"A magazine", it was called Dragon.
The trick to the build, was getting regeneration from somewhere, and then get ten levels of Bone Knight. Regeneration would switch some damage to subdual, and as a ten level Bone Knight, you would be immune to subdual. It was a cornerstone of the unkillable challenge builds that came out shortly after Pun-Pun IIRC (it is rather old). If you did it right, you could be immune to damage. With Bone Knight also granting you immunity to death effects, you would be rather hard to kill. The down side to Bone Knight was you would lose at least one caster level, hence the Ur-Priest (there was also some steep Ride rank reqs IIRC, so to go there early, you would have to take a level of something other than cleric).
There are other ways of getting regeneration than Troll Bloded, though that is the easiest way, and cheesiest.
Though I agree that this build doesn't have all that much to do with CoDzilla, not that you couldn't do it on a cleric basis, I did once, until I came to my senses, it isn't a fun build to play.
I have a CODzilla build from 3.5. I called it the Lich King build (World of Warcraft reference). It was even on Briliant Gamologist section for a bit.HERE IT IS.You may want to rethink your build. You cannot be undead and have regeneration in 3.5 (or in Pathfinder). The best you can hope for is fast healing.
Also, that character is not a cleric. It's a heavily multiclassed character that uses cleric as a base. That's not CoDzilla. CoDzilla doesn't need no stinking prestige classes.
As pointed out the build wasn't undead. He just got most of the Undead properties. And what 3.5 did you play? I cant think of a single optimized build (other than druid or monk) that didn't prestige out as soon as it could. Shrug. Either way it was just an example. Im sure there are better.
@Avh - Its been a long time since I wrote that guy up. I believe it was reprinted in a book but I could be wrong. Either way it was a WOTC feat and heavily used in alot of the builds on Briliant.
if you want to cap attributes at 20 thenrogues and monks no longer have a chance of hitting a damned thing at the high levels
martial DPR drops drastically
barbarian rage becomes useless
classes who depend on non attribute based ways to boost DPR (or by applying 2 or more attributes) become gods.
After two high level campaigns lousy with rogues, monks, paladins, and rangers who all proved quite effective, we never found a lick of that to be true.
By the way, I'd cap at 24, not 20.
rangers contribute skills, and they have favored/instant enemy and paladins can heal tank and they have smite, oath of vengeance can grant more smites.
the monk can use archetypes to be a little better, but still sucks
rogue can contribute skills too, but a capped attribute cuts off any chance they have of dealing significant damage due to the 3/4 bab they share with the monk and lack of a means to augment it.
fighters and barbarians, are quite dependent on augmenting their strength scores, especially barbarians.
how were the rogues and monks effective? did you use custom encounters tailored to them? or did they recieve a lot of buffs from allies or equipment?
I have a CODzilla build from 3.5. I called it the Lich King build (World of Warcraft reference). It was even on Briliant Gamologist section for a bit.HERE IT IS.You may want to rethink your build. You cannot be undead and have regeneration in 3.5 (or in Pathfinder). The best you can hope for is fast healing.
Also, that character is not a cleric. It's a heavily multiclassed character that uses cleric as a base. That's not CoDzilla. CoDzilla doesn't need no stinking prestige classes.
As pointed out the build wasn't undead. He just got most of the Undead properties. And what 3.5 did you play? I cant think of a single optimized build (other than druid or monk) that didn't prestige out as soon as it could. Shrug. Either way it was just an example. Im sure there are better.
@Avh - Its been a long time since I wrote that guy up. I believe it was reprinted in a book but I could be wrong. Either way it was a WOTC feat and heavily used in alot of the builds on Briliant.
monks also PRCed out
enlightened fist was a popular Monk PRC for ascertic sorcerers
plus there were many PRCS for single classed monks focused on being better monks than the monk. like the drunken master for example, or the Shou Disciple or similar classes.
You misunderstand.
I suppose your talking to me? The wizard and cleric still know more than the spontaneous caster without paragon surge. The tier list was made for 3.5, before paragon surge. Paragon surge itself is pretty abusive. I don't care that they're missing 8/9th level spells from each others classes, nor which spell list is best. Having access to the whole nine level spell list is pretty powerful. What exactly are you trying to prove?
Anyways, speaking of PrCs, back in 3.5 prestige classing was a thing. Pathfinder has a major hate-on for PrCs, but 3.5 it was easy to dip around and get all sorts of neat things, thanks to a lack of scaling features. Especially for casters, who really didn't have any so prestige classing ASAP was a thing for them. Splat books gave them more power, though some were pretty broken. Druidzilla existed in core, but planar shepard existed in splats and was an abomination. Clericzilla did okay in core, but devotion feats and the ability to get immunities, extra domains, and divine metamagic existed outside of it.
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I have a CODzilla build from 3.5. I called it the Lich King build (World of Warcraft reference). It was even on Briliant Gamologist section for a bit.HERE IT IS.You may want to rethink your build. You cannot be undead and have regeneration in 3.5 (or in Pathfinder). The best you can hope for is fast healing.
Also, that character is not a cleric. It's a heavily multiclassed character that uses cleric as a base. That's not CoDzilla. CoDzilla doesn't need no stinking prestige classes.
As pointed out the build wasn't undead. He just got most of the Undead properties. And what 3.5 did you play? I cant think of a single optimized build (other than druid or monk) that didn't prestige out as soon as it could. Shrug. Either way it was just an example. Im sure there are better.
@Avh - Its been a long time since I wrote that guy up. I believe it was reprinted in a book but I could be wrong. Either way it was a WOTC feat and heavily used in alot of the builds on Briliant.
This character background must be exciting.
I mean, he was born in Grewyhawk, with blood of trolls from Thillonrian Peninsula, then he went to Forgotten, where he joined a certain group of people who steal divine magic from gods, and then travel to Eberron where he joined the elite forces of a specific nation.
This character background must be exciting.
I mean, he was born in Grewyhawk, with blood of trolls from Thillonrian Peninsula, then he went to Forgotten, where he joined a certain group of people who steal divine magic from gods, and then travel to Eberron where he joined the elite forces of a specific nation.
Really. Ok. A. Its just an example. B. Its a Theorycraft build more then anything else. C. I actually did use him. I ran a World of Warcraft game. It was the WOW RPG world under 3.5 rules. And he was ... you guessed it... the Lich King. Anyways. Besides the point but the fluff of a prestige class is just that... fluff. You can always alter it to fit whatever world your in. Otherwise Homebrew worlds could never use anything other then core.
@Dragonamedrake : start making a build that is legit.
For starters, undeads do not benefit from regeneration.
Then, your character have 5 feats more than normal 3.5 characters.
You also have a weapon of legacy which came out of nowhere, with pretty much no prerequisite.
If you read... I listed my group used PF feat progression and we used the Official WOTC flaw system. I had 3 open feats I hadn't used. If you used 3.5 feat progression I would have had 3 less feats. Also I did qualify for the legacy weapon... and besides that it wasn't a core feature of the build to begin with... it was to mimic the LK sword.
Either way who cares the legality of the build. Its at least 2 years old. It was just an example. Lets get back on topic.
monks also PRCed out
enlightened fist was a popular Monk PRC for ascertic sorcerers
plus there were many PRCS for single classed monks focused on being better monks than the monk. like the drunken master for example, or the Shou Disciple or similar classes.
lol. I stand corrected. So Druids didnt prestige out. Unless you allowed the insane Planar Druid prestige class... then everything prestiged out after 5th level.
I love how summoners can have their eidolon out, use their SLA, cast spells, have tons of meta rods and 4th lvl wands and gear for their eidolon and gear for themselves, all at the same time.
While a CoDzilla 3.5 Druid needed air to breathe to be more effective than the pathfinder summoner of any archetype could ever hope to be.
That it is hypocritcal to say a sorceror is not T1 because it does not know every spell when it can with the proper selction of spells still answer all the challenges.
The sorcerer in pathfinder only knows 3 sixth through 9th level spells, 4 3rd through fifth, and and 5 1st and second.(though swapping makes it vary). Sure you can learn some more with feats, sure you can buy some pages of spell knowledge, but likely you won't learn every 8th and 9th level. Part of tier 1's ultimate power is being able to have the right spell for every situation. He has that spell the sorcerer has And he has a few others that also accomplish the situation. Tier 2 usually can solve a situation, 9 level casting is very powerful. He however doesn't usually have access to every option. Even if a good cleric doesn't have evil options, he still has more options than the sorcerer. Even if the wizard doesn't get many scrolls, he still gets 2 per level he can add to his highest level casting and gets those spells a full level earlier than the sorcerer. Its very likely he'll know more spells than the sorcer. He'll have more options.
Its the difference between solving it in one and nine different ways.
Paragon surge is pretty abusive, but its powerful. I'm not saying that can't make you as powerful as a tier one. I am saying you shouldn't lump every sorcerer ever into tier 1 and treat it like a sorcerer class feature every sorcerer has access too.
I still don't know what your out to prove.
Dead horse being beat.
Yeah 3.5 sorcerer did not have the human Favored class bonus, Paragon surge or even bloodline spells.
The only way to increase spells known was through a very expensive stone that you had to have on your possession for 1 day to work. If your DM was kind it ended up working like pages of spells knowledge.
Regardless the 29 spells you don't have that you can in pathfinder overshadow everything in 3.5 for the sorcerer aside from dragonwrought kolbold and the ability to prestige and give yourself 9th level divine spells.
I could be wrong but wasn't the "Tier 0" a class that could learn or know EVERY spell. From what I remember only the 3.5 Artificer and the Batman Build qualified.
I could be wrong but wasn't the "Tier 0" a class that could learn or know EVERY spell. From what I remember only the 3.5 Artificer and the Batman Build qualified.
Archivist could learn any spell they'd seen in their lives. Truenamer is off the charts because his level 20 ability is to spam gate and teleport anywhere he wants, but until then he is a worthless pile(its a class feature to have a name that gets harder to speak?), and there was an erudite psion that could learn any spell and cast it in some manner, if I remember right. There were a few broken prcs, but none I remember gave you access to every spell.
Those are the ones I remember anyway.
Gate as a class feature that can be spammed at level 20? Where have I seen that before?
He said max of +20 not a max stat of 20.No, I didn't. I said max rolled stat + mod of 20 which I meant to be 18 (max rolled stat) + mod (+2) of 20 (as the max stat a PC can get at start).
Oh, well that's ridiculous. Carry on.
Gate as a class feature that can be spammed at level 20? Where have I seen that before?
Not in pathfinder. This ability was used infinitely and the level 20 power to know the when/where/who anyone speaks your name, even a syllable, then to teleport right to them. Was pretty ridiculous. The class was pretty broken, before that they were pretty worthless.
Ah, yeah that's pretty ridiculous.
Gate as a class feature that can be spammed at level 20? Where have I seen that before?
Must we continually point out the fact that the Summoner's Gate cost the 10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings. This cost is in addition to any cost that must be paid to the called creatures. No one spams Gate unless they can bypass the material cost.
@MrSin - Forgot those. The Batman build got EVERY spell but it was really really cheesy. The base class was War Mage (Cast like a Sorcerer but knows his whole list). You used certain prestige classes to expand your spell list to include the whole divine and arcane list.
Bah. 10k GP is literally 1% of normal level 20 WBL. You can get off 15 of those before you start noticing it. If you play anything like I do then by that time you have other side businesses and connections going that you can pull on to make that essentially free.
You have 880k at endgame. Its like, 1/88th. Its like 15/88th of your WBL if you get 15 off.
I could be wrong but wasn't the "Tier 0" a class that could learn or know EVERY spell. From what I remember only the 3.5 Artificer and the Batman Build qualified.Archivist could learn any spell they'd seen in their lives. Truenamer is off the charts because his level 20 ability is to spam gate and teleport anywhere he wants, but until then he is a worthless pile(its a class feature to have a name that gets harder to speak?), and there was an erudite psion that could learn any spell and cast it in some manner, if I remember right. There were a few broken prcs, but none I remember gave you access to every spell.
Those are the ones I remember anyway.
even in 3.5
few campaigns played to level 20, let alone broke 15. which made certain exploits a lot less glamorous because you weren't going to acquire that 20th level ability.
you often have to prioritize between getting that extra attack per round or access to those higher level spells.
10,000 / 880,000 = 0.0113...
Bah. 10k GP is literally 1% of normal level 20 WBL. You can get off 15 of those before you start noticing it. If you play anything like I do then by that time you have other side businesses and connections going that you can pull on to make that essentially free.
Seriously? You wont start noticing until you lose 15% of the total wealth your character will make at level 20? The fact your DM gives you extra wealth is a moot point. Given unlimited wealth anyone can jump into the crazy.
And that is the the BASE cost.
From Gate
The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. Some creatures may want their payment in "livestock" rather than in coin, which could involve complications.
From Lesser Planar Ally
The creature called requires a payment for its services. This payment can take a variety of forms, from donating gold or magic items to an allied temple, to a gift given directly to the creature, to some other action on your part that matches the creature's alignment and goals. Regardless, this payment must be made before the creature agrees to perform any services. The bargaining takes at least 1 round, so any actions by the creature begin in the round after it arrives.
A task taking up to 1 minute per caster level requires a payment of 100 gp per HD of the creature called. For a task taking up to 1 hour per caster level, the creature requires a payment of 500 gp per HD. A long-term task, one requiring up to 1 day per caster level, requires a payment of 1,000 gp per HD.
So even at its cheapest a Gate is probably going to cost you an extra 2k gold for a 20HD creature... and he can ask for it in livestock! lol. Even if you got unlimited funds, its going to be hard to get your hands on 2 thousand gold worth of chickens. Its easy for a DM to make sure Gate isn't abused.
Of course it is. That's why you keep dismissing the creature and call another if your DM is the sort to be like "this particular one doesn't have that spell you're looking for." That's why you'd do that. Or, at least is why I would do that.
Of course it is. That's why you keep dismissing the creature and call another if your DM is the sort to be like "this particular one doesn't have that spell you're looking for." That's why you'd do that. Or, at least is why I would do that.
So exactly how many rounds of combat (at least two rounds per Gate) and gold (10,000 gold a pop) are you going to waste before you started wishing you had rolled a full caster?
When you go "pffff" at the 10K gold cost for gate and call spamming it broken then the fighter in your party must be the God of War because apparently your game replaces dirt with gold.
Of course it is. That's why you keep dismissing the creature and call another if your DM is the sort to be like "this particular one doesn't have that spell you're looking for." That's why you'd do that. Or, at least is why I would do that.So exactly how many rounds of combat (at least two rounds per Gate) and gold (10,000 gold a pop) are you going to waste before you started wishing you had rolled a full caster?
and it literally says you cant have your eidolon out while your using it.
I wouldn't use gate mid-combat. Negotiating for services alone would probably take longer than the combat itself.
and it literally says you cant have your eidolon out while your using it.
My MS has yet to have his eidolon out for any serious length of time. Certainly not for combat.
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two notes:
CoDzilla's intrinsic definition is based on a Core Druid or Cleric. NOT one with Persistent SPell and Divine Metamagic.
Two: You can't get damage immunity via regeneration. If you become immune to damage, your Regeneration simply turns into Fast Healing. That's a 3.5 ruling. So, the Lich King build just has FH/1, not damage immunity.
=+Aelryinth
two notes:
CoDzilla's intrinsic definition is based on a Core Druid or Cleric. NOT one with Persistent SPell and Divine Metamagic.
Two: You can't get damage immunity via regeneration. If you become immune to damage, your Regeneration simply turns into Fast Healing. That's a 3.5 ruling. So, the Lich King build just has FH/1, not damage immunity.
=+Aelryinth
it has all the benefits of undeath and none of the penalties due to levels in bone knight.
regeneration makes all damage nonlethal except fire and acid, requires a constitution score, which it has
the benefits of undeath derived from bone knight levels grant immunity to nonlethal damage
so the only things that can damage it are fire and acid, that isn't immunity to damage
that is taking an ability that grants immunity to nonlethal damage and taking a second ability that turns all lethal damage into nonlethal. thus negating it.
the guy still has a constitution score, so he still qualifies for regeneration. damned bone knight cheese.
I wouldn't use gate mid-combat. Negotiating for services alone would probably take longer than the combat itself.
So why even bring up GATE when at least 50 percent of the challenges a party is going to face are going to be during an encounter. Given Time and 10k gold a Fighter can hire an NPC Wizard/Cleric to do anything a Gate can.
If I'm paying what it takes to gate an outsider and negotiate for services you best believe I'm getting some time out of that deal. Probably weeks if not months minimum. I'm actually in the process of working out to get a several year service out of a good outsider to act as the general manager of my good aligned organization while I'm out adventuring.