Kingmaker has the problem that the random encounters are all "one-day encounter", so player can blast all spells, abilities etc.
With the sleep hex, I can only agree with Kolokotroni here, have multiple enemies. One falls asleep? Let another slap him to wake him up. So the slumber hex is not completly negated (two enemies loose at least one action).
You can also rule that falling on the ground (as the target falls asleep and all muscle will relax) count as "Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature..." to this would remove the hex completly from combat situation.
That is an opinion, just like some would think forcing players out of a certain class might be silly.Although I have toyed with the idea of forbidding anyone to play the same class they did last time (to keep it new and interesting, as you say).I think that's a great rule. I know that some players have strong preferences about what kind of characters they play, but the exact same class for two adventure paths in a row is getting silly.
Made me think of The Big Lebowski, "Well, yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
Yes, it is just my opinion. I chose the word "silly" because it's mild, and I'm not trying to be aggressive.
I've played with people who always play the same thing, for some value of "the same thing" and experience has taught me a few lessons about it. That's probably a topic for another thread, but to summarize my experience, if I ran an 18 level campaign with Bill playing a "sleep witch" and was gong to run a second 18 level campaign right after it, I would strongly encourage Bill to build a different character.
And I will go with 15 point buy this time.
Don't. I have seen that 15 pt buy encourages Min/Maxing like crazy, and in RotRL PC's need skills, including CHA based skills.
Go for 20 pt buy, but no points gained back for buying a stat down under 10. Works out about the same, but you won't have so many PC's with INT WIS & CHA being 7.
If you don't want to ban it, and you want to allow others to have fun with it, I suggest the following script:
GM: I like the witch, and I think the concept works well with the Rise of the Runelords AP. My only real problem is that the Slumber Hex is so . . . wow. I mean you can potentially shut down entire encounters especially when there is just one BBEG.
Player: You know, a dervish dancing magus channeling his shocking grasp through a scimitar has unbelievable chance to also shut down an enemy instantly... so does Color Spray, etc.
GM: Yes, but they have finite casts per day. You can potentially use Slumber infinite times per day. So what I am proposing is a simple gentleman's agreement. You use your abilities in a way that contributes well and allows everyone to have fun, and I won't ban the class for this AP.
Player: But shutting down enemies in one shot is what I think is fun.
GM: Most players do. I just want every player to have that opportunity. The Heavens Oracle with his Awesome Display Color Spray should have the chance, the crit focused Magus should have his chance, and the Summoner/God Wizard should have their chance to use all those summons and CC spells as well. Rumor has it our Half-Elf Synthesist also wants to occasionally engage in Melee. I just don't want to let your fun strip all of them of their fun.
I get to here and can't but think that's what initiative is for.
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I get to here and can't but think that's what initiative is for.If you don't want to ban it, and you want to allow others to have fun with it, I suggest the following script:
GM: I like the witch, and I think the concept works well with the Rise of the Runelords AP. My only real problem is that the Slumber Hex is so . . . wow. I mean you can potentially shut down entire encounters especially when there is just one BBEG.
Player: You know, a dervish dancing magus channeling his shocking grasp through a scimitar has unbelievable chance to also shut down an enemy instantly... so does Color Spray, etc.
GM: Yes, but they have finite casts per day. You can potentially use Slumber infinite times per day. So what I am proposing is a simple gentleman's agreement. You use your abilities in a way that contributes well and allows everyone to have fun, and I won't ban the class for this AP.
Player: But shutting down enemies in one shot is what I think is fun.
GM: Most players do. I just want every player to have that opportunity. The Heavens Oracle with his Awesome Display Color Spray should have the chance, the crit focused Magus should have his chance, and the Summoner/God Wizard should have their chance to use all those summons and CC spells as well. Rumor has it our Half-Elf Synthesist also wants to occasionally engage in Melee. I just don't want to let your fun strip all of them of their fun.
Pretty much this. There is a reason this game is called Rocket Tag as you level up.
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I get to here and can't but think that's what initiative is for.If you don't want to ban it, and you want to allow others to have fun with it, I suggest the following script:
GM: I like the witch, and I think the concept works well with the Rise of the Runelords AP. My only real problem is that the Slumber Hex is so . . . wow. I mean you can potentially shut down entire encounters especially when there is just one BBEG.
Player: You know, a dervish dancing magus channeling his shocking grasp through a scimitar has unbelievable chance to also shut down an enemy instantly... so does Color Spray, etc.
GM: Yes, but they have finite casts per day. You can potentially use Slumber infinite times per day. So what I am proposing is a simple gentleman's agreement. You use your abilities in a way that contributes well and allows everyone to have fun, and I won't ban the class for this AP.
Player: But shutting down enemies in one shot is what I think is fun.
GM: Most players do. I just want every player to have that opportunity. The Heavens Oracle with his Awesome Display Color Spray should have the chance, the crit focused Magus should have his chance, and the Summoner/God Wizard should have their chance to use all those summons and CC spells as well. Rumor has it our Half-Elf Synthesist also wants to occasionally engage in Melee. I just don't want to let your fun strip all of them of their fun.
Pretty much this. There is a reason this game is called Rocket Tag as you level up.
and that's why diviners are the stronger wizards :)
I was initially of the opinion slumber hexes were not the bad.
Now I see their problem. Not only do big bad guys have to worry about being caught alone, they need to worry about being ten feet to a guy with an axe (taking a AoO to make a cdg is often a good idea). The fact that slumber hex scales with level ensures it will never go out of style.
To nerf it I would not allow its power to scale so well as the witch levels. Against those with poor will saves the witch easily outpowers the sleeper at higher levels. Have a bard throwing around lullaby and it gets even worse.
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We are organizing for our next game, and the group wants to try Rise of The Runelords (no one has played it). Two things. First, a player has expressed interest in playing a slumber witch. Second, I bought the anniversary edition of RoTRL which I know is the first AP written long before the witch class existed (and even with recent updates, I am assuming does not take witches with slumber hex spcifically into account).So, suggestions?
Smile and say sure.
Just keep note of all the thigns immune to sleep.
I think you are overlooking the 30 feet single target issue.I have run all of Kingmaker and i remember THREE times (at book 3+) where the slumber hex couldn't be used on an important enemy, can you remind me (in spoiler of course) where you can't use the slumber hex on important enemies?Without going into spoilers, the Slumber witch will be less valuable in RoTRL than in Kingmaker.
Will the witch star at times? Yes. Will they have many, many critical times throughout the AP where it doesn't work.
Yup.
** spoiler omitted **
So IMHO RoTRL isn't all that favorable to a slumber witch.
** spoiler omitted **
So no i don't see it as particularly troublesome for RotRL, especially when you consider that a witch who tries to specialize in SoS hexes is going to have at least one of the other 2 SoS hexes and the accursed and split hex feats.
And that's why in my game the witch class ended up being a spoilsport.
No i am not, the 30 feet thing was rarely an issue and the other 2 SoS hexes, agony and ice tomb, have 60 feet range and no limitation on range, respectively.
If the thirty foot thing is rarely an issue, then you need to MAKE it become an issue.
If the thirty foot thing is rarely an issue, then you need to MAKE it become an issue.
The reason i buy the APs is so that i don't have to make my own adventure (or at least do only a little work), if i have to re-work whole encounters or set ups in order to accomodate for one class then it's just easier to just ban the class and allow classes that both i and the AP can deal with easier.
First, sounds like a munchkin player to me.
*head scratch* What's that mean?
I've DM'd with a guy using Slumber. It wasn't overly powerful, and the guy was really good at using it. I found Cackle more troublesome but his character didn't actually kill anything. I raise an eye at how high that DC is to save, but *shrugs* - it's managable with enough other bad guys in the room to wake each other up.
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I let them do 20 points last game...maybe 15 points is the solution.
That is always a worth while consideration, especially when it is worth noting APs are written on a 4 player, 15 point assumption.
It will help bring the witch's DCs down, which really shouldn't be that high.
An alternative could be to look at the spells the witch might have access to at the levels in question, with respect to who it can affect, not range etc.
So from 1-4 slumber acts as per the sleep spell,
from 5-10 slumber acts as deep slumber
From 11+ slumber acts as cloak of dreams
Or an alternative is just add the same issue sleep has, which is make the hex SL instead of SU and a 1 round action not a standard.
these are all ideas, I'm actually in favour of not changing it at all, and just letting the witch be awesome once in a while. The night my PC ended a boss fight with one spell (it was a multi-foe fight, but with the boss down the other foe was totally cool with surrender) we celebrated the awesome, not malign the ability that won.
I also found that the witch is particularly vulnerable to blade barrier >:)
If the thirty foot thing is rarely an issue, then you need to MAKE it become an issue.The reason i buy the APs is so that i don't have to make my own adventure (or at least do only a little work), if i have to re-work whole encounters or set ups in order to accomodate for one class then it's just easier to just ban the class and allow classes that both i and the AP can deal with easier.
Not that hard to just tweak things, adjust encounter starting positions, add a creature or two ...
I want to give the other PCs some time to shine. I don't want to "malign the ability that they won"...I want them to win after all (the goal is for everyone to have fun). From my experience with Kingmaker I found the witch to dominate most encounters at lower levels (once the Ranger/archer got to about level 8 or so he began to pass the witch up as the dominating force).
I am still wrestling with doing anything. I still think my plan to start with 15 points will help (in part to keep the DC's down). If they want to MAX, their MIN will is really going to hurt. I had forgot that "Sleep" spell was a 1 round cast, instead of the hex's standard action...that just makes the hex even more powerful.
I don't mind adjusting encounters (I have done it throughout Kingmaker after all.)
FYI (my Kingmaker adjustments)
1) Liberal use of the Advanced Template
2) HP as listed from around levels 1-6, key foes had Max HP around levels 7-9, everything from 10+ has had MAX hit points.
3) Sometimes add a HD or two (level or two) and use power attack/Deadly aim, so that when foes hit, they hit hard.
4) Encourage CR-5 encounters to become social/RP encounters, with the occasional slaughterfest to make the PCs feel super-uber.
5) Some key foes have Iron Will (and Improved if there is room) to help with the hex/saves.
6) If I want to combat to last 2+ rounds, foes occasionally have wind wall/Fickle winds, or/and a potion of barkskin.
7) add more foes when possible (balanced against letting the combat bog down).
I guess I will do the same for RoTRL.
If I were to try and adjust Slumber hex. Which of these four options do you think is best?
1) Slumber hex is a 1 round action (just like sleep).
2) Everything works as advertised but the hex only effects creatures with HD/Levels equal to / less than the witch.
3) Same as (2) above but instead of immunity, creatures get a (+1) to saves for every HD/Level of difference. (And would this be good for all the SoS Hexes...but then again why single out Slumber, or witches for that matter...gets to be a slippery slope?).
Or the ever so likely:
4) Leave the hex alone. But change encounters to keep balance (ie...what a GM does anyways). RoTRL will be challenging enough as it is.
Odd, somewhat-related question: Does the Slumber hex cause the target to just fall asleep on its feet?
If so, in many (most?) cases, wouldn't that leave a chance that the target will fall over and possibly wake itself up?
No. Spells and effects do what they say they do, nothing more, nothing less. Narratively, they do whatever it takes to make that happen. In this case, the person probably either sleeps standing up, or gently crumples. [Edit: As a round is 6 narrative seconds or so, it's more likely they go down over 2-3 seconds, not just WHAM! collapse uncontrollably]
By the same "Why can't I light "Grease" on fire logic" that occasionally pops up in questions like this, a person who falls unconscious is at risk of traumatic injury if their head hits anything on the way down... including the ground itself if nothing stops their skull from a direct path to it {One of the first things you ask in EMS to bystanders if someone fell unconscious is "Did they hit their head when they fell}. So if you want to add in some random chance they wake up, you'd also need to add in the random chance they hit their head and potentially die.
That is why, for the sake of sanity, spells do what they say, nothing more, nothing less. Unless something says it's flammable, it's not. Unless something says it has X chance for you to wake up because of how you went down when knocked out, you don't.
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No i am not, the 30 feet thing was rarely an issue and the other 2 SoS hexes, agony and ice tomb, have 60 feet range and no limitation on range, respectively.I think you are overlooking the 30 feet single target issue.I have run all of Kingmaker and i remember THREE times (at book 3+) where the slumber hex couldn't be used on an important enemy, can you remind me (in spoiler of course) where you can't use the slumber hex on important enemies?Without going into spoilers, the Slumber witch will be less valuable in RoTRL than in Kingmaker.
Will the witch star at times? Yes. Will they have many, many critical times throughout the AP where it doesn't work.
Yup.
** spoiler omitted **
So IMHO RoTRL isn't all that favorable to a slumber witch.
** spoiler omitted **
So no i don't see it as particularly troublesome for RotRL, especially when you consider that a witch who tries to specialize in SoS hexes is going to have at least one of the other 2 SoS hexes and the accursed and split hex feats.
And that's why in my game the witch class ended up being a spoilsport.
We have already established that the majority of BBEG aren't effected, and even those that are have high saves, and so now you move the goalpost...
To the OP, you will have far less problems in RoTRL than in Kingmaker.
And to the original question, I've still never gotten why Slumber is viewed as so overpowered. It's powerful, yes, but multiple foes counter it, ranged foes counter it, failing even once is costly (short range, you're now being melee'd), and some very common foe types [Undead] being immune make it something that's never dominated any game I've been in, and I've played a Hexcrafter with it alongside a Witch with it.
No i am not, the 30 feet thing was rarely an issue and the other 2 SoS hexes, agony and ice tomb, have 60 feet range and no limitation on range, respectively.I think you are overlooking the 30 feet single target issue.I have run all of Kingmaker and i remember THREE times (at book 3+) where the slumber hex couldn't be used on an important enemy, can you remind me (in spoiler of course) where you can't use the slumber hex on important enemies?Without going into spoilers, the Slumber witch will be less valuable in RoTRL than in Kingmaker.
Will the witch star at times? Yes. Will they have many, many critical times throughout the AP where it doesn't work.
Yup.
** spoiler omitted **
So IMHO RoTRL isn't all that favorable to a slumber witch.
** spoiler omitted **
So no i don't see it as particularly troublesome for RotRL, especially when you consider that a witch who tries to specialize in SoS hexes is going to have at least one of the other 2 SoS hexes and the accursed and split hex feats.
And that's why in my game the witch class ended up being a spoilsport.We have already established that the majority of BBEG aren't effected, and even those that are have high saves, and so now you move the goalpost...
To the OP, you will have far less problems in RoTRL than in Kingmaker.
Indeed. There are ltos and LOTS of enemies in RotRL who could ignore or careless about sleep. And the rest either come at you in hordes or are so inconsequential anyway as to not even merit your thought.
That's all there is to it really.
No i am not, the 30 feet thing was rarely an issue and the other 2 SoS hexes, agony and ice tomb, have 60 feet range and no limitation on range, respectively.I think you are overlooking the 30 feet single target issue.I have run all of Kingmaker and i remember THREE times (at book 3+) where the slumber hex couldn't be used on an important enemy, can you remind me (in spoiler of course) where you can't use the slumber hex on important enemies?Without going into spoilers, the Slumber witch will be less valuable in RoTRL than in Kingmaker.
Will the witch star at times? Yes. Will they have many, many critical times throughout the AP where it doesn't work.
Yup.
** spoiler omitted **
So IMHO RoTRL isn't all that favorable to a slumber witch.
** spoiler omitted **
So no i don't see it as particularly troublesome for RotRL, especially when you consider that a witch who tries to specialize in SoS hexes is going to have at least one of the other 2 SoS hexes and the accursed and split hex feats.
And that's why in my game the witch class ended up being a spoilsport.We have already established that the majority of BBEG aren't effected, and even those that are have high saves, and so now you move the goalpost...
To the OP, you will have far less problems in RoTRL than in Kingmaker.
No we didn't established it, you claimed it and i refute it with arguements. And no i didn't move the goalpost you are the one who moved the discussion to the 30 feet range.
And as far as the OP is concerned i run RotRL with a witch character from books 4,5 and 6 and i tell you that both the slumber hex and the other two SoS hexes were a big problem.
Possible houserule : have hexes require specific material components. Make the components for slumber hex difficult, but not impossible to find in various wild or farmland areas.
This will add both some roleplaying moments (there's wilderness encounters possible in all of rotrl )...
If they start abusing a particular hex, then you can compensate by making the ingredient rarer....if they dont abuse it, then clearly said ingredient is found without too much hassle...well, until the next time, anyway.
There is a spell called Hex ward that gives a +4 sv bonus vs hexes, switch out a feat for iron will and that is +6 without wis or base bonus which is a pretty decent swing.
You think that this spell would work but it doesn't, at least not in higher levels, because 1st it's only in the witch and inquisitor spell list and 2nd the bonus granted is a resistance bonus which means that (at least in higher levels) the enemies will have a fair amount of it (if not more than amount the spell grants), so the spell doesn't really grants a +4.
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You actually didn't.
Without going into the specifics of the spoiler, Book 1-2 you conceded.
3, 4, 5, and 6 you are wrong are levels where being a witch within 30 feet and failing means you die.
But to go into more specifics
Starting 3rd book
Against the Cleegs it could help, but it isn't so great at Fort Rannick where taking a single target isn't going to resolve much, the Matriarch is immune.
So is Black Magga, the nymph, The undead wights. The Final BBEG is a Wizard (High will save) who starts combat over 150 feet away from the PCs. Uphill.
Book 4 starts with lots and lots of giants (take one out, get with 30 feet and get one, you get crushed by the rest) and a dragon that is immune to sleep even if you could get within 30 feet of it.
Storval stairs mean the witch needs to move a good distance to get 30 feet away.
Dragon is back at Jorgenfist, so are Wyverns. Both are immune to sleep. So is the undead monk, the undead spider...and the harpy monks get a +2 vs enchantments.
The Lamias have +21 will saves, Golems and constructs are immune to sleep, and so is the undead fighter and the zombie hill giants.
And Mokmorian is in the fog intentionally keeping his distance I quote "If a PC gets too close to him, he uses telekinesis to hurl her across the room and hopefully back into one of the fog spell effects".
Book 5 the Scribbler is immune, and so is the dragon. The rest of the book is wizards with good will saves, including a lich (undead with lots of undead friends, all immune to sleep), Golems (immune) and many things that attack in volume.
Book six starts with undead (immune to sleep), Hidden Beast is undead, Dragon is immune to sleep, So is the Fighter and the Thing From Beyond Time. And The Rune Giants have +20 will.
The has SR and a +21 Will save. Karzoug has a +27 vs mind effecting, plus spell resistance. The Dragon is immune. Rune Giant is +20
So what are you talking about?
@ciretose
I will start with the 6th book:
The big K has +22 will against mind affecting not +27. (he gets +8 resistance bonus from mind blank but has already +5 resistance bonus from his 5 amber spindle ioun stones).
Yes the rune giants have +20 will and the wardens of runes have +23 will, not enough to guarantee success.
By book six my witch player was rocking 30+DC (i think that in the pinnacle of avarice his DC for his highest hex was 32).
Book 5:
Yes the dragon, the lich and the dragon are immune to sleep, the rest of the wizards don't have high enough will saves.
What golems? i remember 3 and two of them were jokes.
Book 4:
Yes the dragon is immune to sleep (although he can die at the skies of Sandpoint), the wyverns are no challenge at those levels (if they are faced at all).
Yes mummy monk is immune to sleep.
The deathwebs? seriously? cr 6 monsters for 11-12 level characters? are you seriously bringing up the deathwebs?
The +2 the harpies get totals to +14, mediocre i think.
Yes the lamias are relatively safe, what golems? there is only one golem in this book.
Yes Mokmurian will try to hurl across the room IF he has cast telekinesis earlier in combat.
I could go on but it's 4.30 AM here and i have to go to sleep, maybe i will be able to continue tommorow.
I would like to correct myself, i had a witch character on books 5 and 6, not at 4.
Even if the 30 feet is such a big a problem (i still think it isn't), the witch (as i said earlier) will just use one of the other 2 SoS hexes, one of them has 60 feet range and the other has no range limitation.
I banned it personally; it is an overpowered effect. Yes there are many things that can get around it... but also plenty that don't. Normally I don't mind "save or dies" but when it becomes an unlimited resource, that's a problem. Even if the baddy gets woken, he's prone without weapon in hand.
It's NOT unlimited. That's the whole point. If it could be spammed vs a single creature (Like Deep Slumber or Hold), then yes. But it can be tried ONCE.
Four encounters, say three of them have foes not immune, that's three tries against the BBEG.
1) Slumber hex is a 1 round action (just like sleep).
2) Everything works as advertised but the hex only effects creatures with HD/Levels equal to / less than the witch.
3) Same as (2) above but instead of immunity, creatures get a (+1) to saves for every HD/Level of difference. (And would this be good for all the SoS Hexes...but then again why single out Slumber, or witches for that matter...gets to be a slippery slope?).
I like the first one, although note the conflict between that and the ability's 30' limit, that might be an unreasonable combo. Something else to consider along with/besides 2) or 3) is not having the Hex DC scale (RAW, it auto-scales as if all the way up to 9th level spells, or actually 10th level spells if they existed). Although since your problem is more with the lowest levels, you may just want to go with 2) or 3).
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@ciretose
** spoiler omitted **I would like to correct myself, i had a witch character on books 5 and 6, not at 4.
Even if the 30 feet is such a big a problem (i still think it isn't), the witch (as i said earlier) will just use one of the other 2 SoS hexes, one of them has 60 feet range and the other has no range limitation.
So now it isn't a problem until the 5th and 6th books...
I just laid it out book by book, and you aren't even looking at the traits when I give you specific references (undead and construct both give immunity to sleep...) and lay it out piece by piece.
Which is perhaps a large part of the issue you are having...
Not to mention you are now saying the book is wrong where the number is laid out in the stat block...
Then Schrodinger's witch apparently has a 30+ Int and I'm done with you, as it is more than clear you are arguing to be right and not to be accurate.
OP, Rise of the Runelords won't be nearly the problem Kingmaker was. Click on the spoilers and I laid it out book by book, not to mention single target spells at 30 feet have the major problem of being single target spells at 30 feet...
So now it isn't a problem until the 5th and 6th books...@ciretose
** spoiler omitted **I would like to correct myself, i had a witch character on books 5 and 6, not at 4.
Even if the 30 feet is such a big a problem (i still think it isn't), the witch (as i said earlier) will just use one of the other 2 SoS hexes, one of them has 60 feet range and the other has no range limitation.
I didn't say that it's a problem only at books 5 and 6, just that the problem i witnessed happened in books 5 and 6 (the books i had a witch character), and from that i extrapolate that they will also be a problem to earlier books as well.
I just laid it out book by book, and you aren't even looking at the traits when I give you specific references (undead and construct both give immunity to sleep...) and lay it out piece by piece.Which is perhaps a large part of the issue you are having...
I don't understand what you are saying here, can you please explain what you mean? Should i be offended?
Not to mention you are now saying the book is wrong where the number is laid out in the stat block...
Yes the statblock is wrong and we can easily divine how that mistake happened, mind blank in 3.5 gave immunity to mind affecting but in PF it only grants a +8 resistance bonus vs mind affecting. So whoever made the update to PF simply made the change from immunity to mind affecting to +8 vs mind affecting.
If you don't believe me then tell me where does this +8 comes from and what type of bonus is it? becuase everything in big K's statblock is explained where it comes from.
Then Schrodinger's witch apparently has a 30+ Int and I'm done with you, as it is more than clear you are arguing to be right and not to be accurate.
No the 30+ DC (specifically 32 at level 17) isn't theorycrafting or anything, it's the DC my witch PC had for his hex of choice, specifically at level 17 he had 28 DC for all of his hexes and the DC of his agony hex was 32 (it could be any hex, the player chose the agony hex because they were up against wizards).
If you want you can stop arguing me, that doesn't make me wrong and it won't stop the slumber hex (and the other SoS hexes) from ruining the OP's game.
OP, Rise of the Runelords won't be nearly the problem Kingmaker was. Click on the spoilers and I laid it out book by book, not to mention single target spells at 30 feet have the major problem of being single target spells at 30 feet...
OP if you want listen to ciretose, i know i am right and if the player optimizes his witch for slumber and the other 2 SoS hexes then he is going to ruin the game. I also laid out why it is going to be a problem even in RotRL (although i agree that books 1 and 2 must be quite safe from that).
No the 30+ DC (specifically 32 at level 17) isn't theorycrafting or anything, it's the DC my witch PC had for his hex of choice, specifically at...
OP if you want listen to ciretose, i know i am right and if the player optimizes his witch for slumber and the other 2 SoS hexes then he is going to ruin the game. I also laid out why it is going to be a problem even in RotRL (although i agree that books 1 and 2 must be quite safe from that).
So with those two sentences, we can infere that you played a ruined game for 17+ levels? Why?
I only see two solutions to this:
A) you kept playing a game that was ruined. This is so dumb I can't even wonder the motivations to do so.
B) you are overstating the effect of said hexes, because, you know, this is an internet argument and once you are in one, you *have* to win it.
No the 30+ DC (specifically 32 at level 17) isn't theorycrafting or anything, it's the DC my witch PC had for his hex of choice, specifically at 17 he had 28 DC for all of his hexes and the DC of his agony hex was 32 (it could be any hex, the player chose the agony hex because they were up against wizards).If you want you can stop arguing me, that doesn't make me wrong and it won't stop the slumber hex (and the other SoS hexes) from ruining the OP's game....
But the Op's game isn't at level 17, few games are. And few PC's can manage that DC even at that level. And, I really don't care if you can show us the math.
So, your comparo is meaningless. Or- what Gustavo sez.
RotRL goes into level 17 and the witch character started ruining my RotRL game* from the moment he was introduced to the game (book 5).
Since the OP said that his player is going to optimize his witch for the sleep hex then i assume that the player is going to try his best for the highest DC, anyway i mentioned the actual number of the DC only because ciretose was saying that the will saves of the wizards are high enough, they aren't high enough if the witch dedicates his build to the 3 SoS hexes.
*That is for the RotRL game that i run, i now play in jade regent (just finished book 3) and there is a witch PC played by another player and he is ruining my (and some of the other players) fun from book 1, with increasing frequency i have to admit.
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If you're coming in at a level with over 100k WBL you have plenty to optimize with. If you're levelling organically that's often quite different.
Option 1. Ban it. It's only one of many Hex's and isn't going to ruin the class.
Option 2. Restrict it. Once per encounter, maybe twice.
Option 3. Nerf it. Hit dice equal to caster level.
People seem to forget that the Witch is a full caster class, the Hex's are just gravy.
People seem to forget that the Witch is a full caster class, the Hex's are just gravy.
Not all full casters are made the same.
I think you'll find given a choice of lists most people would take the Wizard over the Witch or even the cleric.
Option 1. Ban it. It's only one of many Hex's and isn't going to ruin the class.
Option 2. Restrict it. Once per encounter, maybe twice.
Option 3. Nerf it. Hit dice equal to caster level.
People seem to forget that the Witch is a full caster class, the Hex's are just gravy.
1. Do you ban Hold Person, Sleep or Deep Slumber?
2.It can already only be used once per target.
3. How many HD limit is on Hold, again?
Sure, but then we could get rid of Channeling and Domains for clerics, right?
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If your biggest problem with full casters at high levels is a slumber hex / coup de grace combination, your casters are doing it wrong.
If at low levels you find slumber more annoying than:
heavens oracle with color spray + awesome display
saurian shaman druids,
summoners
master summoners
synthesist summoners
ragelancepounce barbarians
wayang spellhunting dervish dancing magi with magical lineage
divine hunter paladins
god wizards
arcane and or sylvan sorcerers (sylvan false priest is my favorite of these)
half elf spontaneous casters
white haired witch hexcrafter magi
zen archers
mounted sohei archers
beast bound witches moving in with their familiar
etc.
your players are doing it wrong.
That said, I agree with BBT. Take out the class if you like, but house rules are always, IMHO, a bad idea. Almost as bad an idea as zeppelins full of hydrogen, drinking beer from an astray, or answering the stranger when he asks if his handkerchief smells like chloroform.