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I think you may get many different responses to your question on these forums. I feel your pain and I think that there are some GMs that have a sadistic need to kill characters, and others that are maybe too soft.
If I were in your situation I would probably seek out the Venture Lieutenant/Captain and discuss the situation. I assume you are not the only player having this issue in your area if it has occurred to you so frequently so maybe get insight from a few others and discuss it locally.
PFS can be a good place to learn the game and meet people, but it is also a different style of play. You may find other like minded players in your area willing to start an AP, a few of which are sanctioned now as I understand it for PFS.
Good luck.
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Critical hits are part of the game Lastshade. I also encountered that amazon pet and she is indeed tough. At times it is hard but remember, no matter how much life and story you have breathed into a character, it is just a sheet of paper with numbers on it at the end of the day. Nobody I know enjoys their characters dying, but there are no rules governing one shot kills, and it would take away from the game if there were such rules. At the end of the day just remember
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Whats good for the goose is good for that gander.
Players can and have at all tiers, one shotted bad guys and the BBEG. So you take the risk playing the game.
I do empathize with you though as it really does suck to have the odds go against you so many times in such a short period of time.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Sorry, Lastshade.
There are creatures out there that can kill you with one shot.
Last weekend, I ran a game where the party faced a redcap. Which critted on its first attack: that's 8d4 + 40, against a flat-footed 4th-level inquisitor.
There are monsters that can one-shot you without a critical.
There are tough encounters in Pathfinder Society. Using them is not up to GM discretion. If the dice indicate a critical hit, the GM doesn't get to softball it. (There are suggestions that a GM might go easy on very new players. If you're playing a 3rd-level character, that's not you.) If the scenario says that the 1st-level PCs encounter a troll barbarian, the GM doesn't get to change that to an orc.
One thing a GM can do is play the opponents as more or less hard-core. I approve of the GM who had the barbarian hit a PC rogue, who drops from the blow, and then switch target to a fresh bag of hit points. (A rogue and a ninja, both? This was the all-Stealth party?)
Good luck, keep thinking about smart ways to play (next time you go toe-to-toe with a raging barbarian, have Vanish up) and I hope to see you at my table some time.
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That ghoul rogue should have only had their first attack be sneak attack. After you're stabbed that first time you sort of notice her. :P (unless she had greater invis - which would be an issue at level 1)
Of note - greataxe crits are a major issue for the first several levels. I had a pretty beefy level 2 bard dropped from full to -12 by a mook (pretty sure just a level 1 warrior or some such) Made me glad I hadn't decided to play an elf.
That's why in home games when I DM NPCs always have x2 crit weapons until middling levels. :P
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Adventuring is among the most dangerous jobs in Golarion. Does the Pathfinder Society have an OSH (Occupational Safety and Health) Committee?
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That ghoul rogue should have only had their first attack be sneak attack. After you're stabbed that first time you sort of notice her. :P (unless she had greater invis - which would be an issue at level 1)
I also agree it should have been 1 attack, but because if the Ghoul managed to keep stealth all the way to first contact with the rogue, then it would have been a surprise round.
For the 'transferred the critical' - I hope that the GM transferred a threat and then successfully confirmed against your ninjas AC.
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If the ghoul's attack was in the surprise round they would only get a standard or move action, which means ONE attack (with sneak attack) instead of the 3 for a full attack.
This. Lots of people make that mistake. Even I have made the mistake of giving my monsters a full round of actions to have a player correct me. If there's a surprise round and the enemies spend their action opening the door, then that was their surprise round action. If they want to get the jump on the PCs before they have a chance to react, they have to wait for the PCs to open the door.
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I recently GMed a scenario where all the PCs failed a reflex save from a breath weapon at the top of the first round of combat. Out of a party of 6 (not optimal) characters only one was left standing from the damage. It was very hard not to feel bad, but that is how the dice fell.The party had to retreat, which is a tactic that players need to remember is always available. Especially if the season 5 scenarios are going to be as difficult as rumors suggest.
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Two observations:
1) My only kill as a GM in PFS (so far, mwu ha ha) came from a boss fight monk taking a full HP paladin all the way to past negative con in one round. It was as a result of the monk giving up a round positioning himself to get his full flurry on anyone who approached him. These were the directions in his tactics block, and I did not get the reason till I saw it in action. BUT the characters had been warned by an NPC that the boss was a hand to hand combat monster, and the paladin chose to go up without anyone else around to spread the love to.
2) We were at a con this weekend and were in a party without a rogue. My wife, a full hp cleric, triggered a trap causing a statue to fall on her putting her at EXACTLY her negative con. The GM was nice and let her use her portfolio reroll to be at 1 point from death and we saved her.
Two Conclusions:
1) Sometimes a GM's hands are tied. The original example at the top of the tread sounds like 2 mobs ending up together and that is the fastest way to a TPK.
2) Some GMs are gonna cut you some slack, some are not. I personally would not play a care bear RPG which did not allow for death.
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I think your GM made some mistakes and seems to be more ok killing people than most gms. In 30 games I think I killed 1 or 2 characters but the parties thought they were going to tpk maybe half the time.
With that said, low level crits are killers. I nearly had two last time I ran. Happily they didn't confirm or I would have at least doubled my body count.
I once got killed by a caryatid column in two hits, before I even had a chance to move. I was only first level and had not wanted to force the other PCs to play in a downgraded adventure, so I was really out of my league. :P
One-shotting is just a risk of the game, in my opinion. No way to fudge it.
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Last weekend, I ran a game where the party faced a redcap. Which critted on its first attack: that's 8d4 + 40, against a flat-footed 4th-level inquisitor.
It was something like this if I remember correctly...
Redcap to the Monk: "Hello, I have to go kill people..." redcap walks past the monk up the stairs.
Inquisitor on the stairs: "What the... *gargle gargle gargle*" as he chokes to death on his own blood...
It was a really fun scenario though and as others have said death happens, you have to accept it and move on unfortunately. I mean death happens so often to that inquisitor that he died in Bonekeep the night before and would die in the scenario after his run in with the redcap. Thats right, he died in three consecutive scenarios lol!
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I've killed my fair share of PCs. One of them was a brutal series of hits (surprise round crit, enemy has best init, full attack lands 2 crits and a hit), one was a nasty spell, another was a party with no way to heal in combat and a character bled to death. Bad tactics and bad dice can lead to character death. One we can avoid, another we cannot. That is what makes the game fun for me.
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You know, this reminds me of my first unofficial PFS game.
I was playing a character that I freely admit I had spent way too much time developing. She was a gnome arcane sorcerer. I read through all five guides to sorcerers. I wrote up a three page back story. I had tweaked and re-tweaked every single aspect of my little gnome. I was seriously head over heels in love with every single aspect of my darling gnome.
Encounter after encounter she was a force to be reckoned with. Her diplomacy skill was a thing of beauty. She had amazing quirks, and I loved role playing her, especially with the kids in the Auntie Baltwin's encounter. Then we got diverted into an alley. A heavy magical mist descended over us all. I could hear foot steps, so I cast color spray. I had been waiting all day to launch that one little spell. The cleric, unconscious, the rogue also fell to my awesome magical display. Two creatures one shotted by me.
Then this little, smaller than even my scrawny gnome sorcerer, halfling barbarian appeared in front of me and swung her oversized weapon at my head.
The GM rolled a natural 20, I cringed. He looked sad and rolled to confirm, and rolled a 17 on the dice alone. I gulped and the gm apologized as he rolled near maximum damage on the raging halfling's critical hit.
After the game, the GM bought me a cup of coffee and said 'Well, on the bright side, you one shot two of them, and they only one shot the one of you!'
We laughed, and the following week I played nearly the exact same character in the real version of First Steps I, and the same damn thing happened. We all busted out laughing...
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Well crits do happen. As arizahl mentioned. A times 3 crit doing 3d10+15 damage to a level one will kill them. But that is part of the risk of the game.
Remember these mods are written by one person. If you out think that one person you can make that mod very easy. Walking into the fights were the enemies get the first the hit on you should be dangerous. If you fight to the enemies strong points expect the game to be harder. I play lots of spell casters where I rarely roll the dice. I like to say rolling is for suckers. Because everytime you roll you have a chance to fail.
Now keep in mind when you do succeed after you know you can and have died, you will appreciate you victories much more.
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I'll chime in here, My table count is currently 90. In those 90 tables I have had 2 TPKS, That's 1/45. Character deaths at my tables total about 12-15, I'm not really sure. that's on average about 1/6 tables I run(but that's including 2 TPK's so it's really nowhere near that often) I have gained, I say gained not earned, the mantle of "Killer GM" at my venue. And before you sit at a table I run I'll warn you of some of the danger. If you're on tier 1-2 you can expect I am probably pulling some punches and making some sub optimal choices. If you're on tier 3-5 you can expect bad guys to flank, and do some tactics along that level. On tier 5-7 expect the unexpected, I will disarm you if I think I can get away with it, I will trip you and push you off of a cliff. You will be bullrushed out of a second story window if you give me an opportunity. I do not tolerate the idea that a BBEG has gotten the title and survived to his level without some measure of competence. I'm not trying to "win" pathfinder, but I would do my players a disservice to not play the bad guys in a tactically sound manner that increases the DRAMA of the final encounter. The (very real) threat of character death increases the anticipation and desperation at the table. It's the moments we play this game for, and it makes victory sweeter. I'll take a character death now and again, if only to remind me and the players around me that it's possible.
Let me also say that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. The MOST memorable table I have had the pleasure of playing under contained the death of my absolute favorite character. I paid for his resurrection, but have not played him since, it's been almost a year. I did this to make the death seem "real" to me, and to deprive myself of the joy of playing him because of how awesome his death really was. It enriched Pathfinder society for me to have the character die. BTW 140 HP will not save anyone from 1 bleed damage that cannot be healed short of a miracle or wish spell....yeah....
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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I had a rather lengthy post typed up here, but I'll simply say that one-shotting someone to death (rather than knocking them unconsicous) should be reserved for 5-9s and 7-11s until this campaign implements a reasonable way to raise characters at low levels. I think that it is patently ridiculous that the campaign doesn't offer one, given that one will be offered at low levels in most APs and home games.
Yes, adventuring is a risky job. I don't see why that should spoil the fun of those who would rather invest in a character than play a numbers game.
Well, you've clearly missed some basic parts of the game.
Favored Class by default gives you the choice of +1 hp or +1 skill rank each time you take a Class Level in your chosen Favored Class.
There is an additional Racial Favored Class option for specific Race/Class combos that have other effects, but the hp/skill options are the basic ones.
Toughness is a Feat with no pre-reqs that gives you 3 hp, and +1 additional hp for every class level above 3.
So, to your question: is there a rule that over-rides other rules when the normal outcome might kill a PC? No, if there was the GM would have applied it in your case. The combat rules work like they say, and PC hps aren't any different than NPC hps.
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My original question was and still is are there specific rules about one shoting characters.
When running for first time players, the GM should attempt to avoid tactics that are especially lethal, but fudging rolls is not 'advocated' - PFS Guide p36
That's pretty much the limit. In that situation, I'd personally have an NPC choose not to confirm the crit (pulling the blow), if and only if they were not looking to murder the PCs.
I have read all the posts and thank you all for answering.
I would like to clarify my position on this as I have read and some may be misinterpreting it. I have no problem with character deaths. As I said, the death of the bard was several bad rolls leading to it. My original question was and still is are there specific rules about one shoting characters. I don't believe that death should never happen. I just am against killing players with something they can't survive at all without it either being something avoid able or some roll on the players part.
There is no rule for it because no encounter is PFS is guaranteed to end in death. Some of the scenarios are just more brutal than others, and that can be made more or less dangerous based on party configuration. If you are lucky enough to play with the same people you can help prevent death by making sure everyone covers something the party might need.
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To answer shadowcat x. The ninja's con was 10. Mostly went for Dex charisma and strength. I built her to help fights and be sneaky. What is toughness? And the only thing I can find on favored classes was it increased you chi.
I'd recommend not playing a character in PFS with less than 12 CON. You MAY be fine with less, but I always feel I'm brushing with death whenever I make a <12 CON character.
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Look at things life defenses as a layer cake (or an onion PFS characters are like onion... or was that Ogres?).
The base defense is HP + CON. This tells you what you can take before you die.
On top of that is armor class (AC). This tells you your chance of being missed.
On top of that, there are things, like fighting defensively, spells that create concealment (Blur, etc), and others that make hitting you effectively harder. Damage Reduction can also come in to play here
So, if you choose to have lower HP (for example, taking only a 10 CON), and especially if you are a melee character (such as a typical Ninja), you'll want to focus on getting your AC up as high as possible. A hit that doesn't land is one that doesn't cause HP damage, right?
At third level, you should be able to have an armor class up around 22 or so... if you really try. Let's say you have an 18 DEX (+4 AC), +1 Mithral Shirt (2100gp, +5AC), Dodge feat (+1 AC), +1 Darkwood Buckler (1302gp, +2 AC) (since I don't think Ninjas get shield, right?). That's a 22 AC.
Now, granted, that's probably almost all of the gold you have earned, or perhaps a little more than you have earned, depending on what you have played, and exactly where you are in your 3rd level.
Add to all that, you can add +3 to your AC by fighting defensively (assuming you have 3 ranks of Acrobatics, which I would think is a safe assuption!)
Why would you focus on defense so strongly? Because you have only 18hp at 3rd level, rather than the 24 you would have with a 14 CON, or 27 if you took either Toughness as a feat, or used your favored class for HP.
Add that up together... if you are only at 10 CON, you cal take only 28hp before death. If at a 14 CON, you can take 38hp before dying, and that's without favored class OR Toughness! That's quite a big spread!
Now, I am not saying that having a higher AC would have helped you, necessarily. However, it does lessen the chance that you'll get a critical against you. That all being said, I would rather advocate for always having a melee specialist with a 14 CON. The extra HP are a HUGE buffer from death. my Rogue (now 5th level) has been saved more than once by having a 14 CON.
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For me personally, and I've been that guy that gets outright killed in the first round of the first combat of a game, I prefer when I GM to not hold back, but if there is a reasonable way to not drop a character, I'll go with it. If I can have a monster spread out damage between characters, I will go with that. If the character has some sort of Feat or ability that seems really close to what was called for, and there is a grey area, I'll probably allow it if it would make a difference. If there is a factor that the players don't seem to get, but their characters should know it, maybe it just wasn't described well, maybe they didn't realize that a certain condition included something, I may sort of work backwards and let them change their actions, depending on how reasonable it is.
I do this because I don't want the characters to die, and I don't want the game to end/the player to not be included. However, I have no issues about dropping the character in one hit to being knocked out. Other players can get them back up, or at least keep them from dying. But, sometimes things happen. Sometimes the monster will roll high and both attack and damage, and there is no other real valid other target. When it happens, and there isn't really another method to not kill them, or they drop and no one else can/will heal or stabilize them, "sorry, but that's on you guys". In a non-PFS game, you are free to make another character and jump back in. Sadly, PFS doesn't really allow that, but if we where playing in a sort of home game, I wouldn't have any issue with said dead character either playing a pregen (no credit as they died, but for whatever reason that pregen had been there the hole time and just been to busy with their own stuff to help with anything until now), or rolling for the monsters and maybe some NPC's, just so they are not sitting there bored and excluded.
When I play, I usually play a healer, and I let everyone else in the group know, hey, I have a Wand of CLW in a spring loaded wrist sheath and a weapon cord on my right hand. If I go down, go for it. I also have a Potion of CLW in whatever container I have it.
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To answer shadowcat x. The ninja's con was 10. Mostly went for Dex charisma and strength. I built her to help fights and be sneaky. What is toughness? And the only thing I can find on favored classes was it increased you chi.I'd recommend not playing a character in PFS with less than 12 CON. You MAY be fine with less, but I always feel I'm brushing with death whenever I make a <12 CON character.
My first character is a Monk that started with 10Con everything was fine with the low health until one game he got crit twice and hit a 3rd time in the same round. Needless to say he didn't make it out of that fight. Bought my res wizard teleported my body back to town and i paid for a teleport back to the party for the wizard and myself. I then bought the ioun stone of Con and got toughness and haven't had much of an issue since
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Character death in PFS does seem to rankle people far more than it would in a home game, if threads like these are any indicator.
The reasons for this are that, playing under an unfamiliar GM, with unfamiliar players, with random mixture of classes and play experience, does increase the likelihood of something going wrong.
When you create PCs for a new home campaign, you can put your heads together to ensure all the bases are covered, you know which players are reliable at watching your back (and learn not to rely on the ones who aren't). Many GMs have house rules, or a play style that softballs the danger (Hero Points, fudging rolls, refusing to confirm crits, only placing weak enemies, etc) until the PCs are over some 'training threshold' of xp or story progression.
And many players come to expect those house rules and play style to be in use at every table they sit at. Some don't even realise they've been playing under house rules, or that their first home GM's softball play style isn't the default.
Going to a game where the GM says "Let the Dice Fall Where They May!" is a culture shock to a lot of players, it would seem.
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Theres also the fact that your character dying has a lot more that comes with it than just missing a little game time. In PFS that means you cant just whip up a new character and jump back in in a few. You are probably out the rest of the proverbial night. It also means you cant try it again with a different character, well not for credit. So you are sort of banned from getting that chronicle, and with how wealth and prestige are very restricted, the option to get rezed is a rather large set back and also pretty pricey. You lose all the stuff you have earned, and for some players the option to play in a game for credit can be difficult to find if they already have a few characters. Ive had an issue with a group really only wanting to focus on the newer scenarios because thats all a player could do (or wanted to, Im not sue on that). So if one of us would have died at certain points, basically one of those two players was out of luck for a while, either forced to play a pregen or not get credit.